Message for developers. About: new patch

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Message for developers. About: new patch

This topic contains 199 replies, has 42 voices, and was last updated by  Nodor 7 years, 2 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 61 through 90 (of 200 total)
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  • #200439

    m007kuzya
    Member

    RG 1 gives Cheetahs Hurl (Throw) Net.

    Some off topic, but it is good idea, to swap RG1 Prowler Discount with RG2 Cheetah buff. Because Prowler is now T2 and require War Hall, so it is no help from RG1 upgrade in so early stage…

    Regarding your suggestion: yes, i agree, Martial Arts is too strong for irregular, and variant 3c is good (but with hurl net is better).
    But this is not completly solve the problem, that spam Cheetah can easy take city and win batles alone without needs to produce any other units…
    If dev. not nerf pounce (by reduce dmg or replace defence to Total Awareness) – i think, need more nerf stats. -2 dmg at least, and, may be, -5 hp.

    #200449

    The issue I have with nerfing cheetah is that they are rather on the edge of uselessness.
    Early on they are one of two units to inflict the bleed Tigran synergies work on, the other is the Shredder. Cheetahs are the weakest pure melee unit you can recruit and pounce is their best way to get a hit in without dying and maybe proc bleeding.
    Shredders can fulfill the role of bleed delivery just as well thanks to their ranged proc.

    But it doesn’t take long until you get better melee pouncers either via some of the class units or the mystic, and the bleed synergy becomes less important and has more delivery units.
    That’s when cheetahs stay around for hurl net.
    Nerf any of these and cheetahs will lose their use in that aspect.
    As good as cheetahs are, they are good because they fill a very specific niche at every point in time, in the Tigran lineup, and changing their abilities (besides MA and sprint) not only removes them from that function but leaves that niche empty.
    Tigran are wonderfully crafted as a synergistic race whose units support each other perfectly well, but that also means that every change has a rats tail of consequences.

    Also how do you get a leader sniped by cheetahs? O.o

    #200451

    Gloweye
    Member

    TBH, I think you can strip Martial Arts straight away, and replace it with the forest Concealment. 3 bonus abilities on medals is a real lot anyway. Add in the 1 damage nerf and I think we might be having a solution on our hands.

    As for the racial governance, you can’t really make it throw net, because it would become even more similar to the human civic guard, especially at RG 1.

    Just throwing the idea out here, how about ditching the net completely, and putting Pounce at the Racial Governance(level 1) ? I agree it would make the unit much less strong, and basically force you to take the RG 1 if you’re planning on using this unit for more than scouting and some very light combat. Since that’s around turn 5 most of the time, it’s early enough for the unit to remain useful. Add in the removal of Martial Arts (Forest Concealment to Elite), and it might be neat.

    And people generally think Goblin Marauders are useless.

    Marauders are underrated.

    As for your stat comparison, Cheetah has 38 HP, compared to 30(!) for the Initiate or 35 for the human. (That said, Initiate is right on par with the Untouchable, which is supposed to have -5 because of race. Maybe buff Initiate with some +3 HP?)

    #200454

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    As for your stat comparison, Cheetah has 38 HP, compared to 30(!) for the Initiate or 35 for the human. (That said, Initiate is right on par with the Untouchable, which is supposed to have -5 because of race. Maybe buff Initiate with some +3 HP?)

    Yes, I know. But those are ranged units, who can hang back to avoid damage. The cheetah must get in close to be able to achieve anything, hence it needing more HP.

    #200455

    Bob5
    Member

    1) Shredder’s currently get Hurl Net on Gold Medal. This could be changed so that they get Hurl Net from the RG upgrade, and we give them a different gold medal upgrade (suggestions welcome)

    Inflict Bleeding Wounds so they get double bleeding proc on ranged attacks? Or perhaps Killing Momentum, not sure if that triggers on ranged attacks though. Or how about some MP increase?

    #200456

    Noone has thought about making pounce require full action point?

    Seems to me that that would immediately make them more vulnerable (you’d get at least an extra round to shoot them), but still reward careful and clever play.

    #200463

    m007kuzya
    Member

    Anyways, to quickly address the Cheetah’s stats. It’s true that the Cheetah has better bases stats than every other irregular, except the Orc Spearman, however it is exclusively a melee unit, so it needs that in order to have any survivability at all.

    This is correct only if we use Cheetah as an simple infantry. But he is not an infantry – he has many tricks to help other troops. If we take care about Cheetah in battles, and use it carefully – he is not die so easy, as in autocombat. But yes, it is can be a problem when play with autocompat vs neutral…

    #200465

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    That’s a good idea, BBB!

    For exchanging RG1 and RG2 – it’s a penalty to give RG1 to what would be the Pikeman for everyone else. So either RG1 doesn’t gain when you get it – or you are more or less forced into a certain building direction (War Hall and cranking out a couple of Prowlers).

    Conversely, Cheetahs are the unit you can always build…

    Maybe Cheetah should not profit from RG at all? Give RG1 to Pike or Shredder and RG2 to Prowler.

    #200468

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Noone has thought about making pounce require full action point?

    Seems to me that that would immediately make them more vulnerable (you’d get at least an extra round to shoot them), but still reward careful and clever play.

    It’s a huge change, and I worry that it will make the ability feel useless and no fun to use.

    #200474

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    It would cut range to their actual MA. It would also make Sprint a more poignant choice: Use it to increase range or save it to get away after a pounce.

    Additionally decrease damage by 1 and drop Martial Arts. Bingo.

    Keep in mind that Inflict Bleeding Wound as an inherent (9) check on every attack is extremely powerful, since it adds another 4 damage and makes a hit unit vulnerable to bloodthirsty. If you use Cheetahs strictly as Irregulars (Rogue-like, with mainly flanking attacks), they do one hell of a job as a skirmisher.

    #200475

    Mythabril
    Member

    I had a silly idea last night about Pounce and Hurl Net. What if the upgrade turns the Pounce ability on Cheetahs into Netting Pounce? So instead of damage to the target, they jump over the unit, drop nets and end up in guard on a random hex. At least then they wouldn’t have both abilities at the same time anymore and still get something unique.

    #200477

    Hatmage
    Member

    How about making pounce not work when engaged? It’s a bit silly pouncing on a unit that you’re right next to, and this make it more distinct from defensive strike, and give cheetahs a good use for sprint while letting players contain cheetahs by engaging them agressively without then making themselves flankable.

    #200478

    It would cut range to their actual MA. It would also make Sprint a more poignant choice: Use it to increase range or save it to get away after a pounce.

    Maybe change pounce that it fully ends the turn with no way to then use sprint.

    #200481

    Jomungur
    Member

    Finally, since no-one’s mentioned it, the best counter for massed cheetahs is probably massed irregulars. Initiates, Untouchables, Hatchlings, Orc Spearmen and Snow Scapers can all win in a straight fight against cheetahs (although not necessarily 1 on 1). The cheetah only has a resistance of 7 when not guarding, Snow Scapers and Untouchables in particular can really take advantage of that.

    This isn’t the way to approach the problem. The advantage of cheetahs is not 1v1 fights, but the sheer stuff they can do. Straight fights are just the surface of the problem. You can mass irregulars to counter cheetahs, but they can’t do much else. Massed cheetahs, on the other hand, move fast on the strategic map and can take cities with walls effectively, snipe enemy archers, etc.

    On another note, asymmetric balance on irregulars will never work. They require no economy to build, which is the advantage of the cheetah. (Warlords have the additional advantage of double producing them with raise militia, especially if take grey guard for the early game population bonus to counter the population loss).

    That’s why in the AoW3 on release the irregulars were so generic. They are the most commonly used troops in MP games, even when bland. It doesn’t matter how bad you make them, they will always be used because there is always a need at times to get a cannon fodder unit out fast or to produce units from outposts or towns that have no infrastructure. Conversely, if you make an irregular unit better than the rest, that race is going to have a terrific advantage in MP.

    #200484

    That’s a good idea, BBB!

    For exchanging RG1 and RG2 – it’s a penalty to give RG1 to what would be the Pikeman for everyone else. So either RG1 doesn’t gain when you get it – or you are more or less forced into a certain building direction (War Hall and cranking out a couple of Prowlers).

    Conversely, Cheetahs are the unit you can always build…

    Maybe Cheetah should not profit from RG at all? Give RG1 to Pike or Shredder and RG2 to Prowler.

    Not mine, I think Jomungur proposed it first.

    It’s a huge change, and I worry that it will make the ability feel useless and no fun to use.

    That’s why you have guinea pigs/testers.

    I just feel like the core issue, from reading the thread, is this:

    Cheetah can run halfway accross the map and jump over whatever obstacle you have, whether or wall or rows of troops, and attack for free.

    Changing pounce values still lets it run accross the map, but now you would need 5 instead of 4 to accomplish teh same mission, whereas someone massing Cheetahs is going to be…well, massing them.

    Same applies to tweaking their defensive values etc.

    Imho, it’s the fast speed (atheltics) plus the little extra jump at the end (pounce) that is combining to cause issues.

    The downside (or not, ymmv) is that it will also affect everything else that has pounce.

    Net result is that Cheetahs are now on parity with the rest, because the rest can stand off and pelt you from range, but the Cheetah needs to close in with you. Now there would be a trade off – if you want to use pounce, then you need to plan it, i.e. get blockers in to keep your Cheetahs alive until they are close enough, then pounce.

    If it does turn out to be too much, make it trigger on yellow.

    I think it’s worth testing anyway.

    #200492

    That’s why you have guinea pigs/testers.

    I just feel like the core issue, from reading the thread, is this:

    Cheetah can run halfway accross the map and jump over whatever obstacle you have, whether or wall or rows of troops, and attack for free.

    Changing pounce values still lets it run accross the map, but now you would need 5 instead of 4 to accomplish teh same mission, whereas someone massing Cheetahs is going to be…well, massing them.

    Imagine if phase had short range and required an enemy within it.

    And the thing about massing them is that massing has limits. You can only bring so many units into a fight. Though besides the CC there are no real punishments for massing a unit.
    I think part of the issue as stated is that cheetahs benefit from Explorer. That’s 40 move plus athletic. With sprint that puts them almost on a level with veteran node serpents for tactical mobility and abed claims their speed from explorer as an issue in the OP.
    The more I look at it the issue seems to me not that the cheetah is good, but that you can use it for many combos whereas other irregulars can’t be used that way.

    #200497

    Imagine if phase had short range and required an enemy within it.

    Imagine if Initiates had athletics and also phase.

    #200498

    Meeky
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Ferrus_Animus wrote:</div>
    Imagine if phase had short range and required an enemy within it.

    Imagine if Initiates had athletics and also phase.

    And defensive strike?

    #200525

    quo
    Member

    I think part of the issue might be how the Explorer tree (IMO) deserves some revisions. Something like this:

    – Create a “Scout” tag for units that are really considered scouts (Cherubs, Crows, Spy Drones, Scouts, Zephyr Birds, Wisps, Lost Souls)
    – Move the Explorer ability “Trail Running” (+8 move to Irregulars) out of the Explorer specialization and make it a Rogue class spell (where right now it is almost mandatory)
    – Create a new version of Trail Running that applies only to Scouts (+8 move to Scouts)
    – Change “Scout Training” (currently +1 vision to Irregulars) to apply to the Scout tag (revised to +1 vision to Scouts, or even +2 which is more justifiable under this changed Explorer tree)
    – Leave Trail Running (Mountaineering, Forestry, Wetland Walking for Irregulars) as is but add Scouts as beneficiaries

    That would address at least part of the issue. I know the Explorer tree has long been a thorn in the side of developers trying to balance Irregular units. And I’ve never liked how pushed Rogues are into that tree.

    #200544

    blackburne
    Member

    I’m curious as to why RG1 for tigrans give their irregulars hurl net, while human RG1 gives their irregulars throw net? (Not that I play either because…goblinmasterrace)

    Here’s something interesting to think about, the melee focused/high mobility irregular gets a ranged net, where as the ranged focused low mobility civic guard gets a melee net. I feel like that’s just a little bit reversed there.

    Also since throw net is ranged, yet has the same strength as its melee counterpart, it should perhaps trade a bit of strength as a trade off? (Just an idea, but might not work due to how prevalent defense stats are over resistance).

    Note: I’m not all that bothered by martial arts on elite since it really only benefits when they’re the attacker. If A: their net succeeds, they’re not going to experience retaliation anyway or B: They open up with pounce they’re not retaliated against anyway. From what people are noting as OP, martial arts really plays no role in that context.

    #200598

    m007kuzya
    Member

    Note: I’m not all that bothered by martial arts on elite since it really only benefits when they’re the attacker. If A: their net succeeds, they’re not going to experience retaliation anyway or B: They open up with pounce they’re not retaliated against anyway. From what people are noting as OP, martial arts really plays no role in that context.

    Problem is that martial arts is an a third tricks that Cheetah can make.
    He can pounce OR he can hurl net OR he can hit 3 times with MA to Inflict Bleeding Wound…
    May be 3 tricks is just too many for T1 irregular. Thats why people says “Cheetah is OP”.

    #200602

    Serahfemme
    Member

    I think BBB’s idea about making pounce only useable on Green or Yellow movement is a good one. As it stands right now, Cheetahs feel less like an irregular and more like a Hunter-Seeker Missle that can strike whatever it wants with near impunity. I think the idea of a pounce ability is neat, but it’s current version is simply too easy to use: just run four or five of the suckers as fast as they can at whatever you want dead and enjoy the screams. If, like phase or shadow step, it couldn’t be used after big movements, you would at least have to try and think ahead about how you’re going to use it. Maybe you could even keep the damage bonus this way, since with the change it would require more thought and tactical finesse to use it properly than the ranged initiates.

    I imagine that the idea of Pounce was that, opposed to regular irregulars, it was supposed to encourage a high-risk, high-reward type playstyle. Unfortunately, using pounce feels like no risk at all, as there’s about a 0% chance that my opponent will somehow be able to intercept my cheetahs before they make their leap.

    #200763

    NuMetal
    Member

    (2)Nothing that the cheetah has ever been capable of doing is anywhere close to as potentially game-breaking as the frostling tier 1 irregular inherently inflicting freezing on their range attack.

    The rest of your post was very well thought out and I very much agree with it, but not this.
    I think you might be a bit biased because as you said you mainly play Tigran Warlord. Tigrans have an innate -1res and 20% Frost Weakness. They should get wrecked by Snow Scapers!

    #200810

    Imagine if Initiates had athletics and also phase.

    If we remove their ranged attack that sounds fine by me.

    #200835

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    OK, the “Being able to get up to an enemy and attack in melee before they can react” is actually something we want to keep, but we want to stop the cheetah’s ability to siege cities, so we’re going to look into making it so you cannot pounce through obstacles. There are other changes being planned as well, but we want to try and put everything together to present all at once, rather than having everyone second guessing every aspect of what we do before we finish.

    #200839

    Teehon
    Member

    OK, the “Being able to get up to an enemy and attack in melee before they can react” is actually something we want to keep, but we want to stop the cheetah’s ability to siege cities, so we’re going to look into making it so you cannot pounce through obstacles. There are other changes being planned as well, but we want to try and put everything together to present all at once, rather than having everyone second guessing every aspect of what we do before we finish.

    If we’re talking about irregulars already: any plans to look into Prospectors’ tactical usability?

    #200850

    CyperPhiber
    Member

    OK, the “Being able to get up to an enemy and attack in melee before they can react” is actually something we want to keep, but we want to stop the cheetah’s ability to siege cities, so we’re going to look into making it so you cannot pounce through obstacles.

    sounds imho the best solutions i read yet, walls shouldnt be able to easy pass by units except flyers or improved wall climing (makes prowlers even more important!). walls give you an early turtle option which i like because u give up map control and sit behind your stones to tech peacefully.

    #200867

    NuMetal
    Member

    If we’re talking about irregulars already: any plans to look into Prospectors’ tactical usability?

    Why would they?

    Nothing needs to be changed about them. They aren’t particularly underpowered and have nice strategical value on maps with Underground and also Dwarfs don’t need any buffs at all whatsoever.

    #200874

    Teehon
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>teehon_noin_annenkov wrote:</div>
    If we’re talking about irregulars already: any plans to look into Prospectors’ tactical usability?

    Why would they?

    Nothing needs to be changed about them. They aren’t particularly underpowered and have nice strategical value on maps with Underground and also Dwarfs don’t need any buffs at all whatsoever.

    Well, they are both the weakest and one of the most expensive irregulars in the game. And strategically useless when there is no UG.

    #200880

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    So play with UG!

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