[Mod] Hero Development Mod

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This topic contains 36 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  ihsan07 5 years ago.

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  • #243215

    I figured the cast fireball ability which effectively works as a free short-ranged spell would have to suffice, apart from that ability the spec is more designed as a warmage, I will give you that.

    Did you ever consider making more spells into abilities? Movement provides a natural limiter on their use, and would be a way for people to get around one spell per turn if they so chose.

    #243216

    Eomolch
    Member

    Hi BBB, to be honest, I didn’t really consider this option, in case of the fireball it was more due to a lack of alternatives than because I thought it was a great thing to do. I agree, that a range limit could balance such abilities, but I fear a large-scale implementation of such skills would still threaten spell casting to become less important (though, if I get you right, this may be actually something you want to accomplish).

    A different idea that occurred to me and on contrary to yours would attempt to make hero spell casting a little more attractive again, is to add one of the combat spells from among the player specializations (so magical spheres + alignment specs) to each of the professions from my hero professions mod. I would probably make them available around level 5, but I am not certain yet if there are enough suitable spells around or if I would have to create a good number of new spells myself for this purpose (in that case I’ll probably let the idea go).

    #243220

    Hi BBB, to be honest, I didn’t really consider this option, in case of the fireball it was more due to a lack of alternatives than because I thought it was a great thing to do. I agree, that a range limit could balance such abilities, but I fear a large-scale implementation of such skills would still threaten spell casting to become less important (though, if I get you right, this may be actually something you want to accomplish).

    Yes and no. It was more an ideal thought concerning one spell per turn. The reason having multiple spells per turn was removed was because spells have no range limit, and can be stacked, so a group of 6 Sorcerors could let of 6 chain lightnings in one go, which was…unpleasant.

    Making spells into abilities effectively introduces limiting factors such as range and mp, which means there is more inbuilt balance. For example, Lightning from Horned Gods.

    Now, I believe that making these Hero abilities is a cool idea, especially if they are mutually exclusive, because thus you can get
    Summoners (self explanatory)

    Illusionists (summonfake units as a battle distraction, blind the enemy etc, eventually learn the current mass illusion strategic map ability)

    Warlocks (debuffs?)/Battlemage (direct damage spells)/

    casters or generalists (the current hero level paradigm, but focussed on cp, with a wide range of spells) as Sorceror subbranches. Also, your regular casting pool is still important, because those have no range limitations.

    Thus, the player has the choice of going for mass casting pools, in order to be able to hang back and cast fireballs with no range, but there is a mana limit, or can become a BattleMage who can always cast fireballs, because s/he knows them innately, but the tradeoff is that they require positioning, are subject to range and line of sight limitations.

    For flavour, you could make the version from the casting pool more powerful, so you can have a range limited, weaker version that never ‘runs out’ (but requires action points) or the more powerful, range unlimited version, that requires mana.

    A different idea that occurred to me and on contrary to yours would attempt to make hero spell casting a little more attractive again, is to add one of the combat spells from among the player specializations (so magical spheres + alignment specs) to each of the professions from my hero professions mod. I would probably make them available around level 5, but I am not certain yet if there are enough suitable spells around or if I would have to create a good number of new spells myself for this purpose (in that case I’ll probably let the idea go)

    Also a very good idea imho. You could make your Sorceror hero have the following choices:

    Sorceror (base)

    ==> BattleMage (gets magic fist) =leads to=> Air Master (chain lightning) OR Fire Master (Fireball) and so on, and make the sphere picks exclusive, so Fire Masters get some lovely stuff but can’t pick water.

    ==> Enchanter (default spell) =leads to=> Air (learns haste), Fire (fire halo).

    ==> Illusionist (gets own stable of spells around this, but more importantly has strategic map abilities)

    One would need to be careful not to make either strat map abilities or spells as abilities too strong thoguh.

    To be honest, I think either idea is worth exploring.

    #243221

    Gilafron
    Member

    I saw BBB’s post and decided to spew what’s been going on in my head. (Bad idea, I know). I really do like the idea of making all spells as abilities. I’ve even started on my own mod to do that, but it sure is a lot of work! Eomoich, thanks for putting in all the work you have done on your hero mod. It’s truly my favorite mod.

    The reason I like the idea of Spells as Abilities is:

    1. As BBB noted, being able to “cast” more than one spell per turn. The one spell limit makes no sense in my mind.

    2. Why are some things spells and some things abilities? I see no rhyme or reason.

    2. It makes leaders and heroes more the same. I HATE that Leader casting points are “research” and Hero casting points are level-up boosts. This approach removes the Hero casting points entirely and makes it all a level playing field. The very first mod I tried was killing Leader casting points via Research, but alas, not possible.

    The gotchas I’ve encountered:

    1. It fundamentally changes the game. Mana is now exclusively for Leaders. As a result, Leader spells probably need to be addressed. The nature of the mana-required spells seems to change. They either become highly strategic-focused and/or worthy of combat spells cast over a great distance. For instance, Last Stand doesn’t seem worthy of requiring mana. I don’t think this change is a bad idea, but it takes a lot of thought and effort.

    2. Too many abilities on a hero makes it a pain to have to open up the character sheet and select an ability. The twelve or so abilities at the top will fill up fast. I think it is important to make some abilities as Passive abilities. I ended up mapping
    out quite a few Aura, Retaliation, and Leader Stack-Buff abilities.

    3. The Hero level-up for casting points goes away, in effect reducing the available choices at level up. I believe these need to be replaced with new abilities to keep level up choices the same. With the planning I have done, I have “borrowed” some of Eomoich’s ideas.

    4. I’m truly not sure the impact of range limits on spells, especially the nuke spells. I’ve toyed with limited range vs start on cool down.

    I’ve come to find out that Spells as Abilities is a lot of work. There is a lot of play testing that is required to see if it works as well as I hope. And is it even worth it if a playier is constantly opening up their character sheet to use an ability? That might sound silly, but it actually is a huge concern for me. I find it highly annoying today.

    Not that I’m off my rant, I’ve taken a break from working on such a mod. It kept getting bigger and BIGGER. Maybe I’ll get back to it, maybe not. I’m digging map making now. Nonetheless, I like the specialization idea you mentioned Eomoich. However, I agree that that might be a whole lot of work in and of itself. Good luck on your decisions and I appreciate what you have already produced and are currently working on.

    #243259

    Eomolch
    Member

    Yes and no. It was more an ideal thought concerning one spell per turn. The reason having multiple spells per turn was removed was because spells have no range limit, and can be stacked, so a group of 6 Sorcerors could let of 6 chain lightnings in one go, which was…unpleasant.

    Making spells into abilities effectively introduces limiting factors such as range and mp, which means there is more inbuilt balance. For example, Lightning from Horned Gods.

    Now, I believe that making these Hero abilities is a cool idea, especially if they are mutually exclusive, because thus you can get
    Summoners (self explanatory)

    Illusionists (summonfake units as a battle distraction, blind the enemy etc, eventually learn the current mass illusion strategic map ability)

    Warlocks (debuffs?)/Battlemage (direct damage spells)/

    casters or generalists (the current hero level paradigm, but focussed on cp, with a wide range of spells) as Sorceror subbranches. Also, your regular casting pool is still important, because those have no range limitations.

    Thus, the player has the choice of going for mass casting pools, in order to be able to hang back and cast fireballs with no range, but there is a mana limit, or can become a BattleMage who can always cast fireballs, because s/he knows them innately, but the tradeoff is that they require positioning, are subject to range and line of sight limitations.

    For flavour, you could make the version from the casting pool more powerful, so you can have a range limited, weaker version that never ‘runs out’ (but requires action points) or the more powerful, range unlimited version, that requires mana.

    Ok, at first I was a little confused because I didn’t realize you are talking about the sorcerer class only, but now I get your reasoning. This sounds actually like a cool concept which might be more fitting than what I did for the sorcerer in the hero development mod. It certainly would be more advanced and complex. It would lead to some asymmetry compared to the other classes but that would be ok as long as this doesn’t imply imbalance as well. The only problem I personally have with the idea is that it would require me to sacrifice the already finished concept currently used in my hero mod, so I’m not convinced the amount of work necessary to do this would outweigh the gains. But this is really just talking from my personal perspective, so if you or anyone else would like to go for this I would be very interested to see the results. (Also, since I have considerable experience with this kind of content in the mod editor I could help with problems or questions during the process.)

    Also a very good idea imho. You could make your Sorceror hero have the following choices:

    Sorceror (base)

    ==> BattleMage (gets magic fist) =leads to=> Air Master (chain lightning) OR Fire Master (Fireball) and so on, and make the sphere picks exclusive, so Fire Masters get some lovely stuff but can’t pick water.

    ==> Enchanter (default spell) =leads to=> Air (learns haste), Fire (fire halo).

    ==> Illusionist (gets own stable of spells around this, but more importantly has strategic map abilities)

    One would need to be careful not to make either strat map abilities or spells as abilities too strong thoguh.

    To be honest, I think either idea is worth exploring.

    Hehe, now you misunderstood me as well, though I do like what you propose (it would fit the concept for the sorcerer you mentioned above like a glove). What I actually was referring to were the race-dependant professions from my hero mod part 2. So e.g. goblin pyromancer could learn fireball, the human witch black lightning, halfling cook skin of oil (hrhr) etc… It is something I will consider again once the core mod is done for all races.

    @gilafron: Thank you for sharing your impressions and observations regarding spells turned into abilities, though I think you also got BBB’s post wrong since I suspect he was strictly speaking about the sorcerer class. In fact I am not sure how this concept could work for the other classes but since you already toyed around with the idea you can maybe enlighten me? Generally speaking I would agree with your conclusion that simply turning all the spells into (short-range) abilities probably isn’t worth the effort especially since the gain from it is uncertain. (And yes, overfull ability bars are a nuisance :/) It can make sense for select abilities or maybe even a considerable number of abilities when they are part of a bigger concept (e.g. something like BBB proposed for the sorcerer). Just turning them into abilities for the sake of it sounds to arbitrary. Even if from a logical point of view the difference between abilities and spells sometimes may seem just that arbitrary it does make sense from a game-mechanic and -balance point of view with spells just being a special class of abilities with their own advantages and disadvantages. By eliminating them you would also eliminate that layer of depth (along with other unsettling effects like leaders suddenly not being able to cast spells in a combat that they aren’t present in).

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 1 month ago by  Eomolch.
    #250404

    *Holy Necromancer!*

    So, I’m starting to mod a bit, and enjoying the learning process more this time around. Was frustrated a bit in earlier efforts.

    Back on topic, spells into abilities “just because” is not a good idea. Some spells could be abilities, and if there were a way to introduce some of them dependent on specialisations chosen instead of class or race, that would be interesting.

    I envisage spec adept-journeyman-master, with master unlocking some adept spells for use as abilities.

    For example, fire adept (as it is now), fire journeyman (some current fire master stuff, some extra stuff, such as a purging flame ability which removes all buffs and debuffs but burns the friendly target for 10 damage) and then new fire master (which would give fireball as an ability and also skin of oil, massively cheapen hell hound) The idea is to represent that a Master knows the basic stuff so well he can do it with his eyes closed, in his sleep, while tied underneath a bed etc.

    Mastery stuff would have some “gamebreaking” spells (like a strategic fireball effect that hits several hexes etc).

    I’d also like to explore mutually incompatible specialisation picks. having to pick between Creation and destruction could and should be a real head scratcher.

    Anyway, that’s all for an advanced mod. My current efforts are (re)learning how to make abilities.

    #253091

    ihsan07
    Member

    Congrats on this wonderful mod. Just a feedback… Nothing happens when clicked on “Ascension of the pure” (Spirit Elemental Transformation – Theocrat – Monk). Keep up the good work

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