Mod Idea: Racial Governance Overhaul

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Mod Idea: Racial Governance Overhaul

This topic contains 8 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Zaskow 6 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #225367

    Zakharov
    Member

    Currently racial governance is all about spamming settlers. Founding cities gives race governance and race happiness, which makes the cities you founded even happier. I think racial governance would be a lot more interesting if it were based on city quality instead of city quantity.

    Racial governance from cities:

    Outpost: 0 (was 1)
    Village: 1 (was 2)
    Town: 3
    City: 4
    Metropolis: 5

    Racial governance from buildings:

    Tier 3 unit production building: 2
    Store House: 1
    Public Baths: 2
    Hospital: 3
    Grand Palace: 4

    Thresholds: 10 75 500 1000 1500 (was 20 100 500 1000 1500)
    With outposts and villages giving less governance, the threshold for going up a rank needs to be reduced.

    Founding and migrating cities don’t give racial happiness (migrating still costs racial happiness).

    Because founding cities doesn’t give racial happiness, something has to, and city happiness is a reasonable choice. Every city gives a bonus or penalty to your racial happiness:

    Rebellious: -75
    Very Unhappy: -50
    Unhappy: -25
    Happy: +25
    Very Happy: +50
    Cheerful: +75

    To avoid recursion, racial happiness no longer affects city happiness, though it does affect unit happiness. I think this is reasonable in any case, as it was very easy to get all your cities to Cheerful with the +300 racial happiness bonus.

    —————————————————————

    Getting a racial governance upgrade should be exciting, especially the Champion upgrade. With that in mind, I’d modify a lot of the racial governance bonuses so that you’re rarely stuck with a choice between a minor upgrade to a unit you don’t want to train and a minor upgrade to a building you don’t want to build.

    For reference, current RG upgrades are here; I just checked and they’re up-to-date.

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    Draconians

    Economic 1: Shrines and Laboratories cost 30 less to build.

    Military 4: Flyer also gets Regeneration.
    Economic 4: Peak costs 100G 50M less, gives +2 vision and +1 medal rank.

    —————————————————————

    Dwarves

    Military 3: Dwarves get Improved Mountaineering. Dwarf infantry and irregular units get Mountain Concealment.
    Are sneaky Firstborn overpowered? They’re still slow.
    Economic 3: Item Forge costs 100G less to build. Items are 50% cheaper to forge.

    Military 4: Firstborn gains Ancient Ancestor, +2 fire damage and Defensive Strike.
    Economic 4: Pool is 100G cheaper and gives +20 production.

    —————————————————————

    Frostlings

    Military 1: Frostling Raider and Harpoon Thrower get +10 Health.
    This would be much better if it affected Ice Scapers, the Frostling T1 you actually want to build, but that would probably be overpowered. Harpoon Throwers are bad even with the buff, affecting raiders too makes it a decent buff to your early-game clearing ability.

    Military 3: Frostling cavalry and infantry units are 15% cheaper and deal +2 physical melee damage.
    This may be a bit too strong; it certainly makes Crusaders and Berserkers great. On the other hand, Champion upgrades are supposed to be strong.
    Economic 3: Frost Castle is 100G cheaper, generates +10G +10M and Ice Queen is 30% cheaper.

    Economic 4: Temples and Grand Temples generate +10 mana.

    Economic 5: Grand Palace provides +15 gold, +15 mana, +15 knowledge, +15 production and +10 CP.

    —————————————————————

    Goblins

    Military 1: Untouchables, Scoundrels, Martyrs, and Monster Hunters gain Projectile Resistance and Sprint.
    Scoundrels already have Sprint, of course, but adding Projectile Resistance makes this somewhat useful for a class that’s unlikely to build many Untouchables. I’m not sure whether this should affect Monster Hunters; I rarely use them.

    Economic 2: Goblins no longer dislike or hate Volcanic or Tropical terrain.
    You’re not going to settle in Volcanic or Tropical then wait 20 turns for RG 3; this is much more useful at rank 2.

    Military 3: Beetle Command now enables construction of Tame Trolls.
    Economic 3: Class specific buildings are 20 gold cheaper and generate +10 production.

    Military 4: Big Beetle and Tame Troll get Disgusting Stench and +10 health.
    This should definitely affect Tame Trolls as well, but I’m not sure whether going from RG3 to RG4 justifies an additional +5 health.
    Economic 4: Wetlands give +5 happiness.

    Military 5: Infantry, Pikemen, Cavalry and Irregular units get +2 blight melee damage and Inflict Weakened. Archer and Support units get +2 blight ranged damage and Inflict Enfeebling Fever.
    Economic 5: All goblin racial units gain Volunteer (this stacks with the Volunteer many of them get at Veteran).

    —————————————————————

    Halflings

    Economic 1: Store Houses cost 60G less to build.

    Military 2 is not very useful unless you’re a Rogue or Theocrat going for an evolve strategy, or maybe a warlord spamming Raise Militia, which is particularly problematic given that economic 2 is also situational. I don’t know how to make it balanced for AD, dread and necro without making it overpowered.
    Economic 2: Public Baths generate +100 population.

    Military 3: Halflings have +200 morale.

    Military 4: Halfling cavalry units are Very Lucky.
    Economic 4: Halfling cities gain +200 morale.
    +200 morale on cities has a nice symmetry with Military 3.

    —————————————————————

    High Elves

    Economic 2: Laboratories generate +5 knowledge and observatories generate +10 knowledge

    Would Arcane Arrows be overpowered at military 3? It’s the really interesting Elf military upgrade (well, military 5 is, but that would definitely be overpowered here). Of course, doing that would make Sorcerers sad.
    Economic 3: Mana Nodes generate +8 mana

    Economic 4: Great Temples provide +5 CP

    Economic 5: Storehouse, Public Baths and Hospital provide +10 production and +100 happiness.
    Economic 5 (necro): Harvester’s Guild gives an additional +200 population, Enbalmer’s Guild gives units an additional +7 Health and Cathedral of Bones gives undead an additional rank.

    —————————————————————

    Humans

    Economic 2: Watchtowers, Roads and Fortresses are 60% cheaper.
    This is not very relevant by the time you get to Champion, but would be great at Protector.

    Military 3: City upgrades that provide a specific medal rank instead provide 2 ranks.
    Economic 3: Harbors generate +100 population and +15 gold. Ships cost 20% less to build.
    This is awesome in the right circumstances, but terrible in others. I’m not super happy about that on a Champion upgrade, but you’ve always got the option of choosing military in the latter case. Buffed because it’s a lot worse at Champion than Protector.

    Military 4: Cavalry units get +2 spirit melee damage.
    This isn’t all that exciting as a Prophet upgrade, but adding a second damage channel is more interesting than just +2 physical.

    Economic 5: Produce Merchandise, Generate Mana, Seek Knowledge and Build Housing all provide +100% bonuses instead of +50%.

    —————————————————————

    Orcs

    Military 1: Orc Greatsword, Orc Spearman and Orc Razorbow get +1 physical melee damage.
    Economic 1: War Halls cost 75 gold less.

    Military 2: Orc Impaler gets +2 physical melee damage and Inflict Bleeding Wounds.
    Orcs are the melee race, so it makes sense that Razorbows would be weak (although they are very weak). An RG upgrade to Razorbows is either weak because Razorbows are still weak, or counteracts the melee focus of the Orc race. Buffing Impalers instead keeps on theme and has synergy with RG 1 economic.

    Military 3 and Economic 3 are strong enough, but not very interesting. Anyone have ideas on how to improve them?

    —————————————————————

    Tigrans

    I’m not happy with Military 3 or Economic 3, they’re decent but boring. Anyone have any ideas? The obvious one would be to move the awesome military 4 to military 3, but I strongly suspect that would be overpowered.

    #225481

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Thresholds: 10 75 500 1000 1500 (was 20 100 500 1000 1500)
    With outposts and villages giving less governance, the threshold for going up a rank needs to be reduced.

    …but you just made Store House add +1 anyway, along with the other buildings, meaning that while I can see the RG1 threshold going down, and RG2 staying as it currently is, the rest should actually increase.

    Economic 1: Shrines and Laboratories cost 30 less to build.

    Shrines and Temples would make more sense, although it also wouldn’t, due to modifying a T2 building.

    Military 3: Dwarves get Improved Mountaineering. Dwarf infantry and irregular units get Mountain Concealment.
    Are sneaky Firstborn overpowered? They’re still slow.

    Why was RG4 moved to 3 AND buffed?

    Military 1: Frostling Raider and Harpoon Thrower get +10 Health.
    This would be much better if it affected Ice Scapers, the Frostling T1 you actually want to build, but that would probably be overpowered. Harpoon Throwers are bad even with the buff, affecting raiders too makes it a decent buff to your early-game clearing ability.

    Personally, I find it to be a pretty nice upgrade, and making it boost the already good Infantry on top of things is a bit off. Consider Goblin 2, for example. At best, +5 HP to both the Harpoon and the Raider.

    Military 3: Frostling cavalry and infantry units are 15% cheaper and deal +2 physical melee damage.
    This may be a bit too strong; it certainly makes Crusaders and Berserkers great. On the other hand, Champion upgrades are supposed to be strong.

    Going from Mammoth Riders only, to all Cavalry and Infantry is quite the boost.

    Military 1: Untouchables, Scoundrels, Martyrs, and Monster Hunters gain Projectile Resistance and Sprint.
    Scoundrels already have Sprint, of course, but adding Projectile Resistance makes this somewhat useful for a class that’s unlikely to build many Untouchables. I’m not sure whether this should affect Monster Hunters; I rarely use them.

    Look at the scope of other RG1 upgrades, and realize that they either give a minor boost to a single unit, or an even more minor boost to two units.

    Military 4: Big Beetle and Tame Troll get Disgusting Stench and +10 health.
    This should definitely affect Tame Trolls as well, but I’m not sure whether going from RG3 to RG4 justifies an additional +5 health.
    Economic 4: Wetlands give +5 happiness.

    If it’s going to work on both, then definitely only +5.

    Military 5: Infantry, Pikemen, Cavalry and Irregular units get +2 blight melee damage and Inflict Weakened. Archer and Support units get +2 blight ranged damage and Inflict Enfeebling Fever.
    Economic 5: All goblin racial units gain Volunteer (this stacks with the Volunteer many of them get at Veteran).

    Both of those are massive in scope, obscenely so.

    Economic 1: Store Houses cost 60G less to build.

    Kind of surprised you ignored Military 1, in light of some of the other proposals.

    Economic 2: Laboratories generate +5 knowledge and observatories generate +10 knowledge

    That’s hefty, and crazy to get +15 Knowledge for an RG2.

    Would Arcane Arrows be overpowered at military 3?

    Yes.

    Economic 5 (necro): Harvester’s Guild gives an additional +200 population, Enbalmer’s Guild gives units an additional +7 Health and Cathedral of Bones gives undead an additional rank.

    Hmm, kind of an interesting homage to Elves and Necromancy having close ties in AoW1.

    Economic 5: Produce Merchandise, Generate Mana, Seek Knowledge and Build Housing all provide +100% bonuses instead of +50%.

    It’s already one of the strongest. Does it need to be made even better?

    #225494

    Zakharov
    Member

    Thanks for your feedback!

    …but you just made Store House add +1 anyway, along with the other buildings, meaning that while I can see the RG1 threshold going down, and RG2 staying as it currently is, the rest should actually increase.

    Good point. 10 100 500 1100 1300 might be better.

    Shrines and Temples would make more sense, although it also wouldn’t, due to modifying a T2 building.

    Shrines and Labs are fairly similar buildings, and you often want both in any city building supports.

    Why was RG4 moved to 3 AND buffed?

    Moved to 3 because it’s more unique than the current rather dull 3, and buffed to keep its power level similar to other RG3s.

    Personally, I find it to be a pretty nice upgrade, and making it boost the already good Infantry on top of things is a bit off. Consider Goblin 2, for example. At best, +5 HP to both the Harpoon and the Raider.

    Goblin 2 buffs a unit that’s already really good. Maybe +10 HP for harpoons and +5 for raiders.

    Going from Mammoth Riders only, to all Cavalry and Infantry is quite the boost.

    All cavalry is just Mammoths and Manticores, which I don’t think is interesting enough for an RG3 on its own, but yeah, it is.

    Look at the scope of other RG1 upgrades, and realize that they either give a minor boost to a single unit, or an even more minor boost to two units.

    It only buffs two units given that you can only play one class, and martyrs and scoundrels effectively replace the untouchable. If it’s broken it would be because of monster hunters; warlord playes, would sprinting projectile resistance monster hunters be OP?

    If it’s going to work on both, then definitely only +5.

    Fair point, Trolls are pretty good already.

    Military 5: Infantry, Pikemen, Cavalry and Irregular units get +2 blight melee damage and Inflict Weakened. Archer and Support units get +2 blight ranged damage and Inflict Enfeebling Fever.
    Economic 5: All goblin racial units gain Volunteer (this stacks with the Volunteer many of them get at Veteran).

    Both of those are massive in scope, obscenely so.

    Compare the military one to human 5. I could see removing Inflict Enfeebling Fever, I added it mostly for symmetry.

    Bear in mind that Economic 5 doesn’t affect class units; I’d guess it’s comparable to Human 5.

    Kind of surprised you ignored Military 1, in light of some of the other proposals.

    +1 defense +2 melee is a fairly substantial buff to Nightwatch, I think it’s fine.

    Economic 2: Laboratories generate +5 knowledge and observatories generate +10 knowledge

    That’s hefty, and crazy to get +15 Knowledge for an RG2.

    Fair point. How about +5 on each?

    Economic 5: Produce Merchandise, Generate Mana, Seek Knowledge and Build Housing all provide +100% bonuses instead of +50%.

    It’s already one of the strongest. Does it need to be made even better?

    If that’s the case I guess it doesn’t; I always picked military because it seemed much more immediately useful that late into the game.

    #227014

    Motasa
    Member

    Great idea, since I also dislike the need for a city spam to increase racial governance without a snails pace, which is especially true for any race other than your starting race.

    I myself was planning on adjusting the majority of the military and economic tiers, because I also dislike some of the choices you get. It’s either obvious you should choose for one or the other in most, if not all situations or the choice is trivial; both do so little, you can’t be bothered with either of them. And although I have, most of the time, other ideas in mind to spice up the tiers you mention (or do not mention here), your post got me rethinking some of my ideas for changes and inspired me to have a closer inspection of some of the tiers.

    So I hope it’s feasible with the mod tools to alter the mechanics of racial governance, so it should be more interesting if it depended on what your city has build, instead of how many cities you have build.

    #227053

    Zakharov
    Member

    I’d love to hear your ideas.

    #227091

    Zaskow
    Member

    Good point. 10 100 500 1100 1300 might be better.

    Not very, actually. Later RG upgrades would be almost unused especially in MP-games.

    Look at the scope of other RG1 upgrades, and realize that they either give a minor boost to a single unit, or an even more minor boost to two units.

    And that’s bad, because they become useless with passing of game.

    #227093

    You know Zaskow, in 2 different threads now you’ve complained about EQ but have yet to offer a full and solid suggestion.

    This thread is proposing new ideas and you are just whining.

    @ OP, for my money, I think rg1 economic should be something relatively small that accumulates over time to make a difference (e.g. the orginal dwarfen mining, although hopefully not so effective).

    Not very, actually. Later RG upgrades would be almost unused especially in MP-games.

    This is by design. The later rg upgrades are there to make large and extra large singleplayer maps more interesting.

    #227097

    vota dc
    Member

    +10 HP and disgusting stench doesn’t seem overpowered for a T4 upgrade. It is even underpowered if you don’t pick military 3 before and you haven’t the troll.

    #227125

    Zaskow
    Member

    You know Zaskow, in 2 different threads now you’ve complained about EQ but have yet to offer a full and solid suggestion.

    It seems you never read my posts and topic about RG. I’ve suggested many times how I’d like to see RG upgrades – meaningful for whole game with positive effects which could change your gameplay style for certain races etc. Sadly, but people like you prefer to see RG upgrades as crappy minor advantages which become useless before turn 20-30.

    This is by design. The later rg upgrades are there to make large and extra large singleplayer maps more interesting.

    Perfect. I must lose a part of gameplay in my favorite type of games, only because somebody prefers to play L and XL-maps.

    Actually, I suggested idea for fixing problem of unused RG upgrades in MP-games, but nobody cares.

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