More Racial T3s!

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions More Racial T3s!

This topic contains 23 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  Gloweye 7 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #151631

    Unknown250
    Member

    I would love to see the game add in one extra T3 per race. Why? One could argue that it adds more options, sure, though every class except Sorcerer adds in at least one buildable T3.

    No, to me the big deal here is that there’s a huge lack of variety among the racial T3s. They are literally all either Cavalry (4) or Infantry (3). At least Support units are relatively common among classes, with the Shaman and the Evangelist – and the Succubus, as well, though it fills a slightly different role due to being melee only. But Archers and Irregulars aren’t around at all, and the only Pikeman is the Phalanx.

    Personally I feel that this is especially grievous in the case of Pikemen and Irregulars. The lack of T3 Pikemen means that, unless you’re a Warlord, you don’t really have a hard counter to a sizeable chunk of the more powerful T3s out there – not to mention T4s like Dragons. The lack of T3 Irregulars is in particular surprising because the category is loosely defined enough that there are all sorts of fun things that can be done there. I’ll admit that Archers seem like they would be tough to balance at T3.

    #151633

    llfoso
    Member

    Irregulars would be tough to balance because of the Explorer specialization. I suppose it would be ok if none of them had more than 28 mp normally.

    Archers wouldn’t be that hard. If there are T3 supports there can be T3 archers. But their strength can’t be based on damage. For instance, you could have a high elf “arcane archer” whose damage is only slightly better than longbowman but comes with special attacks such as “lightning arrow” and “rain of arrows.”

    As for pikemen, since phalanx are so bland (just like any other pikemen but with a shield and better stats) any racial T3 pikes would make them feel redundant imo.

    #151636

    Wintermoore
    Member

    T3 Irregular will be interesting.

    #151642

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    The racial units MUST be bland in some way.

    Example: It’s not that difficult to see that “Centaur” might be a High Elven T3. It would be a “Mounted Archer” unit – and as such make Warlord’s “Mounted Archer” redundant. Not only that – it would give EVERY class access to a Mounted Archer unit, a T3 at that.

    Triumph strains to make racial units more unique, but that comes with a price and things have to be adjusted for that. It’s a difficult process, and it remains to be seen how the game will look after the next expansion.

    #151658

    Gloweye
    Member

    Can sure be interesting. Let me shamelessly self-quote for a moment:

    Possible T3′s:<br>
    High Elf:<br>
    Ranger(Archer, 11 base damage longbow, maybe 1 bonus range on Elite)<br>
    Stormlord(Support, inflict stun/shocking, provide Shock damage/inflict shocking to other units, Call lightning on Elite. )<br>
    Dwarf:<br>
    Dwarven Mole rider(Cavalry, tunneling, 40 MP. Firstborn loses tunneling.)<br>
    Draconian:<br>
    Breather: (Archer, fire breath. A bit sturdy. Somewhat closer to dragon orgins.)<br>
    Frostling:<br>
    (Mammoth Rider? put wolf rider back at T2…)<br>
    Goblin:<br>
    Kharagh(It made goblin sounds when you hit it in SM…maybe it’s (part) goblin?)<br>
    Orc:<br>
    Abomination(Irregular. Entangle, poison spit.)<br>
    Halfling:<br>
    Sheriff(Cavalry. Dual Cav might be boring, but Sheriff really is the best choice IMO…)<br>
    Human:<br>
    Swashbuckler(Irregular, Fire Pistol, Swimming and decent melee.)

    I’ve tried moving away from the infantry/cavalry/flyer matrix when making this, and I think this list is a nice starting point.

    #151839

    vota dc
    Member

    More buildable race T3 would mean more easy to overwrite that unit with racial units. For example orc warbreed is an improved shocktrooper and goblin warbreed is an improved beetle rider (beetle can tunnel too, but both are brawler that crush wall). The manticore itself is an upgrade of gryphon but is a different tier.

    #151843

    Frostling T3 is a Support.

    #151846

    Gloweye
    Member

    Frostling T3 is a Support.

    Yup, a nice change. I want more like that…

    #151926

    The Mentat
    Member

    I’m for additional T3 units too, but I don’t know if the best way to develop them is by just trying to increase variation. As Jolly Joker already posted, this can lead to class units getting redundant.

    The better option is imho to look for units that are needed in the game!

    An example: In Warlord late game it makes often sense to concentrate military production just on Manticore Riders for offense. They benefit from Martial Arts and Thoroughbred Mounts and work very effective against AI. In contrast, in many RTS games (Starcraft, AoE) mono armies like that would never make sense – and the reason for the problem is: The AI needs a counter against Manticore Riders.

    T2 pikeman btw can’t play this role in late game because (1) a whole army can be easily eliminated by an earthquake spell and (2) they counter cavalry in general.

    T3 units can imo really improve the game if they help to reduce mono-armies both by humans and the AI. I wouldn’t implement them however as racial units because it would be unfair if just one race had access to them. Instead they could get available with a mythical city upgrade.

    #152021

    ESCL
    Member

    I suppose it never hurts to answer a topic like this again – I think it would be be a great thing for AoW3.

    The important thing for me would be to make sure the races still would have a weakness. No point in giving the dwarves a great fast cavalry unit for example, since that would close a gaping hole in their line-up without being restricted to a certain class. Like the Warlord. Instead they should, in my opinion, be a new way of using the race’s particular strengths.

    Draconians: Salamander – yes it was a Lizardmen unit back in AoW1 but it’s origins where so cryptic that you could work around that. Irregular unit with great fire damage and nice abilities (28 mp). Another offensive unit for the Dracs that won’t solve their defensive problems.

    Dwarves: Mole rider – A cavalry unit that might only be a bit faster than the Firstborn, but more versatile. Shines on underground maps with lots of earth walls because of reduced movement loss when digging. Activated ability “undermine” to deal massive damage to siege wals

    Goblins: Drake Rider – another mobile, but weak Goblin unit.

    Halflings: Sherrif – I would make it a support unit that focuses on buffing the army. Fire pistol? Another Halfling ranged with only physical damage.

    High Elves: Storm Lord – not my idea but I like it. An evolution of the Storm Sister with a lightning strike ability with extreme range. Get to close and they don’t stand a chance but deadly when defending from walls

    Humans: Pike unit that doesn’t clash with the Phalanx? Maybe Gloweye is right about the Swashbuckler. I don’t really see it as a T3 though

    Frostlings: Doom Wolf – this falls outside the confines of cavalry units, and as such it will have the mounted trait, but not be considered true cavalry. The Frostling riding this huge wolf will only be there to point the wolf in the right direction and take care of it out of combat, thus it does not contribute in a fight. Extremely fast overland movement.

    Orcs: Great Beast Rider – I’m seeing the strongest “cavalry” unit in the game, riding some sort of primeval rhinoceros. Massive amount of hp and good damage. Devastating in close combat and a tough nut to crack with physical ranged. Elemental ranged will tear it to pieces like all Orcs though.

    #152024

    Jaduggar
    Member

    The racial units MUST be bland in some way.
    Example: It’s not that difficult to see that “Centaur” might be a High Elven T3. It would be a “Mounted Archer” unit – and as such make Warlord’s “Mounted Archer” redundant. Not only that – it would give EVERY class access to a Mounted Archer unit, a T3 at that.

    Yup. This is true ^

    If we get too carried away with the t3’s, then they shall start to outshine class units. Class’s are meant to have the largest impact on your playstyle, while the races are only meant to be the base that you apply your templates to.

    I think the current best plan is the one already underway… to add more abilities to the existing racial units that will differentiate them from each other while not pushing aside class units. That orcen battlecry ability may be available to all players with an orcen city, but itll handle differently on a warlord than it will on a sorceror.

    Id hold back the wishlist, here, until we see how things look after the expansion.

    #152054

    Unknown250
    Member

    The racial units MUST be bland in some way.

    Example: It’s not that difficult to see that “Centaur” might be a High Elven T3. It would be a “Mounted Archer” unit – and as such make Warlord’s “Mounted Archer” redundant. Not only that – it would give EVERY class access to a Mounted Archer unit, a T3 at that.

    Triumph strains to make racial units more unique, but that comes with a price and things have to be adjusted for that. It’s a difficult process, and it remains to be seen how the game will look after the next expansion.

    I completely agree, but Archer and Irregular are categories that are completely untouched by classes at T3, and Pikemen only sees one. I think a few units could be added there without diminishing the class units in any way, shape, or form. I feel like your comment would apply to Support units, though, as there’s quite a few of those floating around in the classes anyway.

    I guess the challenge with Pikemen is that, conceptually, it’s a tough category to come up with a lot of variety for. I mean, it’s a guy with a stick. How many different versions can there be? That being said, some sort of javelin-based unit would be cool – Pikemen with a ranged attack that Pole Arm still applies to, and maybe Inflict Crippled.

    #152068

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I’d like to make it clear that I’m with the Devs here: there are ENOUGH units in the game. If there is anything to do, then by adjusting what is there, but not by adding more units (except for NEW Classes and Races and Dwellings).

    You should keep in mind that things will become decidedly more difficult and different with the new race relations and racial governance effects on one hand, and on the other the differences between the racial units will become more pronounced.

    Now, I can’t say whether that’s advisable or not for strategy – but there are those games I myself don’t build even ONE racial T3, not to mention a potential second one. Say, Human Warlord. What could be the second T3? A Swashbuckler? Nah, too fragile. Even a Crusader is only T2. A Witch – nah, we have already T2 support, what would you want with a Witch, except when it’s done the Frostling way?

    The only thing we CAN do, is adding some racial flavor and differences: Goblin’s Pikeman will be a T2. Frostlings will also get a Pikeman in synergy with their T3 – and even that is already firmly on Theocrat territory: imagine a Witch/Pike/Martyr combo, where the Martyr covers the Pikeman: DOUBLE damage reduction.

    #152083

    Jaduggar
    Member

    imagine a Witch/Pike/Martyr combo, where the Martyr covers the Pikeman: DOUBLE damage reduction.

    I… have a feeling that wont work. I suspect that only damage actually dealt directly to the unit being protected will transfer to the new unit, so you probably cannot bounce it from one unit to another. Although, Frostling Theocrat is going to be my fist play on the expansion, so I guess ill find out.

    #152096

    Kezza921
    Member

    I would like to see a racial naval unit because you are essentially limited to two pure naval units (not 100% sure about the ironclad) sure there are ways to get more like with dwellings, spells etc but I would like to see a naval racial.

    P.S. Flyers don’t count

    #152113

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Jolly Joker wrote:</div>
    imagine a Witch/Pike/Martyr combo, where the Martyr covers the Pikeman: DOUBLE damage reduction.

    I… have a feeling that wont work. I suspect that only damage actually dealt directly to the unit being protected will transfer to the new unit, so you probably cannot bounce it from one unit to another. Although, Frostling Theocrat is going to be my fist play on the expansion, so I guess ill find out.

    Main thing is, that you are on Theocrat territory: the Frostling Pikeman works basically as a Martyr specialized on female Frostling units – so Frostlings utilize a very small part of what is actually the Theocrat class’s field of expertise in order to become more distinct. (To make that clear – I have no problem with that, since something says me it will work; but the flipside of the coin is the fact that – and that’s what you WILL see – this racial special will probably make Martyr a pretty lame unit when playing Frostling Theo – EXCEPT, of course, if Martyr works in the afore-mentioned combo, which would make it pretty darn difficult to conquer a Frostling Theocrat town: place Martyrs in the back, and good luck damaging the ice queens. 🙂 )

    Just pointing out how dangerous the territory is. 🙂

    #152158

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Another thing to consider is that Royal Guard, unlike Martyrs, are a unit you might well want in combat… but if it’s sharing health, then it’s taking damage both from direct attacks and from attacks on the protected unit. If the Royal Guard is protected by a Martyr, then it might not pass on the damage it receives from the female Frostling unit on, but passing on the damage it takes itself will still be a plus.

    #152163

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I suppose it would depend on whether you get a few Martyrs zu Champion Level early. Guarding the Guard with a Champion Martyr and the Queen with the Guard would make it difficult indeed, at least with conventional means.

    #152170

    Gloweye
    Member

    Another thing to consider is that Royal Guard, unlike Martyrs, are a unit you might well want in combat… but if it’s sharing health, then it’s taking damage both from direct attacks and from attacks on the protected unit. If the Royal Guard is protected by a Martyr, then it might not pass on the damage it receives from the female Frostling unit on, but passing on the damage it takes itself will still be a plus.

    Right now, absorb pain is impossible to use on a unit that’s absorbing someone else’s pain. I’ve got a feeling you can’t use it on a Pike that’s already using his.

    #152250

    I’d be totally down for another set of racial T3’s that are all some kind of weird irregular, support, or archer units. Of course, I’d be totally down for extra content in any part of the game (why look a gift horse in the mouth) and I actually think specializations and especially spells need added content quite a bit more badly.

    The current racial T3’s are all some kind of melee bruiser with subtle differences between each other, so their obvious counterpart would be a more subtlety-oriented units and Age of Wonders 2 had a lot of races set up this way – you had Knight/Witch, Iron Maiden/Druid, Warlord/Shaman, Flyer/Elder and so on. I guess what’s important is that the new T3 unit is a foil to the race’s old one. My ideas would be as follows, since we’re throwing them out there. If it was up to me, I’d even force you to build a mutually exclusive building at the same cost and requirements as the current building you need to make your first racial T3, so if you want both racial T3’s of the same race, you’d need to have two cities.

    Dwarven Armsmaster

    Thematically, the dwarves have always been very good at making equipment and have had a tradition of being inventive with weapons like steam tanks, balloons, and cannons. Since their current T3 unit has nothing to do with that, and is more of something like a magical, mythical creature, the Dwarven Armsmaster will be a nice foil, as he is a wealthy and elite warrior loaded down with all the fancy shmancy weaponry the dwarves could come up with. He is armored in full plate, carries a shield, and a primary weapon of a double-crossbow (that is, a crossbow with one stock and two bows) with attached bayonet. Mechanically, he works a lot like a jack-of-all-trades archer, with his primary damage coming from his crossbow that can shoot up to twice (you get 2 shots on yellow movement, but only 1 shot on red movement), but in a melee he has the Polearm trait (from his bayonet) to handle cavalry, and has fairly high defenses. The Armsmaster requires a Grand Armory building to make.

    Goblin Garbage Wagon

    The goblin T3 unit is a machine – a big, armored wagon full of garbage with a primitive catapult arm. The wagon can be used to hurl garbage for relatively small area of effect blight and physical damage into enemy ranks, but the real function of the garbage wagon is the skill “Distribute Rations,” which comes with 3 charges at the beginning of each strategic turn (not battle round). “Distribute Rations” costs no action and heals a goblin unit adjacent to the Garbage Wagon for a 15hp. The Garbage Wagon also raises the morale of all goblins in the army by 100. The Garbage Wagon comes from the Big Dump building.

    Human Alchemist

    The human is a human unit wearing lavish robes underneath a big apron and primitive-looking gas mask. All around his body are belts with flasks on them. Alchemists are ranged units who can toggle between different throwing Oil Bombs, that do area effect damage and inflicts vulnerability to fire, Poison Vials that do single target blight damage and then more damage over time, and Frost Potions that cause single target damage and also inflict Frostbite. The alchemist is a support unit meant to make friendly physical damage dealers and fire damage dealers more powerful while himself becoming more powerful if there are goblins in the army causing blight vulnerability. The Alchemist requires a Hall of Learning to train.

    Orc Bellower

    The Orc Bellower is a large, strong warrior himself, much like a Shock Trooper, but he carries a large warhorn resembling a sousaphone instead of a warhammer. Besides giving orcs in his army a passive morale boost, the bellower supports his army with a suite of buffs in contrast to the Shaman, who debuffs enemies. These buffs are all only usable once per turn, but affect all five of the other units in the Orc Bellower’s party, no matter where they are in the fight (the effect does not extend to other friendly units who are fighting on the Bellower’s side if they were outside of the 6-unit party at the beginning of the battle). These buffs include “Take their heads!” which gives additional melee damage for one round, “Hold this ground!” which gives additional defense for one round, and “Cry havoc!” which increases everyone’s morale dramatically for one round. The Bellower comes from an Orcish Parade Ground.

    High Elf Union Lord

    The Union Lord is a foot archer unit that represents the Union between elves and dark elves from previous games by having tricks that both sides in previous games used. He is represented as an elf wearing particularly fancy armor who wears a glowing red sword at his side and carries a longbow. I don’t think anybody particularly wants to play against T3 units that are actually specialized at shooting, so the Union Lord’s longbow shots will do only slightly more damage than the Tier 1 longbowman’s, but he makes up for it by having a few nasty tricks that other archers only wish they had. He is able to teleport like the Iron Maiden from AoW2 (or Unicorn Rider from AoW3) and his melee attacks lifesteal, like the Executioners from previous AoW games. Training Union Lords require a Dual Memorial in the city.

    #152671

    The Mentat
    Member

    There are some good ideas but mostly in terms of lore. The influence on the game should be taken into account too:

    Stormlord(Support, inflict stun/shocking, provide Shock damage/inflict shocking to other units, Call lightning on Elite. )<br><br>

    The Stormlord is an example for a unit that sounds really useful. It could be very important for fights against Dreadnoughts and especially Juggernauts. But I guess it would be a problem if it worked also against Golems and Flame Tanks (both have Shock Weakness) because this could lead to a Stormlord spam with no chance for the Dreadnought. So it has to be at least a unit with Fire Weakness or Physical Weakness.

    Second it seems that the Stormlord is just a stronger version of the Storm Sister. There should be imo some differences that make sure that both units are worth building.

    Orc:<br><br>
    Abomination(Irregular. Entangle, poison spit.)<br><br>

    Entangle and Poison spit could make the Shaman redundant. Why not just make Abomination a unit like this:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/preepiphemuswdh/Abomination.pdf?dl=0

    Entangling Roots (active ability, no cooldown):
    Imobilizes an adjacent unit for 1 turn (the unit can still attack). For every time Entangling Roots is casted on a unit, it gets additional 20% Physical Weakness as long as it remains entangled.

    Physical Melee Reflection (passive ability):
    This unit reflects 50% of all physical melee damage it receives back to the attacker.

    Source: http://magiccards.info/pc2/en/66.html

    The idea is basically to let melee units with stong physical attack destroy themselves. So it’s especially usefull against Warlord, but it can still be countered by Mounted Archers and Monster Hunters.

    #152807

    Gloweye
    Member

    The goblin T3 unit is a machine – a big, armored wagon full of garbage with a primitive catapult arm. The wagon can be used to hurl garbage for relatively small area of effect blight and physical damage into enemy ranks, but the real function of the garbage wagon is the skill “Distribute Rations,” which comes with 3 charges at the beginning of each strategic turn (not battle round). “Distribute Rations” costs no action and heals a goblin unit adjacent to the Garbage Wagon for a 15hp. The Garbage Wagon also raises the morale of all goblins in the army by 100. The Garbage Wagon comes from the Big Dump building.

    I actually like this one…but maybe ditch the rations, and just have it throw garbage in aoe, for small damage and some blight debuffs(More at ranks).

    Second it seems that the Stormlord is just a stronger version of the Storm Sister. There should be imo some differences that make sure that both units are worth building.

    Difference would be Call Lightning(which has a 1 round CD)(Maybe on base instead of elite?), along with the shock damage buff at touch, not having the ordinary shock bolts. Another plan was to have Storm Sisters evolve to these, like initiates to the sisters.

    And that Abomination was based more on the AoW SM version, which had poison spit and entangle. Difference with shaman is that shaman has poison bolts (and befriend animal), while the abomination would be a bit better at melee(around T2 good.) It’d really be an Irregular.

    #152841

    The Mentat
    Member

    So both are decent melee fighters. I think that makes the Stormlord to a really interesting unit. I’m not so sure about the Abomination though. It seems still a bit similar to the Shaman in the role you could use it. (However this might be due to the fact that I can’t really remember the Abomination in AoW 2.)

    #152850

    Gloweye
    Member

    So both are decent melee fighters. I think that makes the Stormlord to a really interesting unit. I’m not so sure about the Abomination though. It seems still a bit similar to the Shaman in the role you could use it. (However this might be due to the fact that I can’t really remember the Abomination in AoW 2.)

    Shaman isn’t good in melee, it just has some HP. Abomination would also have some damage. see

    http://aow2.heavengames.com/aowsm/gameinfo/units/orcs.shtml#abomination

    for the old unit(a T2)

    As for the Stormlord, more as a last resort. It’s there to Call Lightning a bit, but can do some damage should the need arise. Not as strong as a Evangelist, IMO.

    Or at least, that were my ideas.(and I kinda like them…)

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