Mystical City Upgrades – Rise of the Dwellings

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Mystical City Upgrades – Rise of the Dwellings

This topic contains 34 replies, has 22 voices, and was last updated by  Decker87 8 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #129249

    Gloweye
    Member

    From the Cities of the Dead thread:
    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dev-journal-cities-of-the-dead/page/3/#post-129147
    This post onwards

    As a side note, I would love if Mystical City upgrades get allowed in Dwellings. I’ve had thrice already that I had a Forbidden Sanctum in a Archon dwelling, and I’ve seen a Ancient ruins in a Naga dwelling domain as well….

    they did at first, but then there were concerns that there would be wasted structures, like a Forbidden sanctum in a dragon dwelling.

    …was that how it went? Honestly, I would think the greater concern would have been the existence of a Forbidden Sanctum in a Naga dwelling, rather than a ‘wasted’ structure somewhere. All they would have to do is disable the structures for Dwellings without the potential to build units of the given type. That is, currently only Naga and Archon(and Faery’s Nymphs) would be able to build related site-structures.

    For point of reference, I doubt you see very many Warlords rushing to get Soul Chambers. Or pretty much any non-Warlord trying to get Pillar of the Stylite(unless they really need Pikes for some reason), or non-Rogues(and a dash of Dread) being eager for Mercenary Camps. There are other examples, I’m sure.

    Yeah, I’d love that too!

    We had it in the beta, but as chrys said it got removed because Triumph was afraid that some players would build buildings that do anything for them and then be frustrated.

    Since it’d not be difficult to turn on again (I guess), you could just propose it in it’s own thread and maybe if enough people say they’d like it too they’l add it again

    You’d definitely have my vote!

    So here it is, the seperate thread where I’m going to try and raise support for the plan to allow Mystical City Upgrades in dwellings. If I get a sufficient semblance of support here, I’m going to post in in the Compiled Index thread.

    Because of the aim of the Compiled Index thread, please also post any reasons in favor of/against this Idea.

    Im in favor(obviously), because there are sufficient dwelling units that would really profit from this. Of course, dragons and giants wont give a f***, but all the other have one or more units that would really love to see those bonuses. From resurgent Nymphs, to Focussed Archons Archers, to holy-damage naga, they’ll appreciate it, and give even more depth to the game this way.

    #129251

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Thumbs up.

    #129256

    Althea
    Member

    Count me in.

    I fully support this idea. Also, i would like to see giants and dragons included.

    I’ll give some idea here, but if there is a more dedicated thread about it later, this idea can be moved there.

    The idea:

    Perhaps the current mystical upgrade give a bonus to giants and dragons, but the bonus is different from what you get normally. E.g: Ancient ruins is normally for pike, but for giants and dragons, it gives different bonus, maybe the opposite of the normal bonus? like bonus damage against pikemen, like overwhelm or something similar.

    Another interesting idea, Forbidden Sanctum normally give resurgence to support units, to giants and dragons, it give disintegrate side effect, allowing units killed by dragons and giants to not resurge and can’t be resurrected.

    Lore explanation example: Ancient ruins when discovered by nearby cities of the major races (those 7 races that you can select) normally gives the knowledge on how to better utilize pole weapon which result in better trained pikemen. When it’s discovered by giants and dragons, it gives them new insight on how to better defeat pikemen which in game translates to bonus damage against pikemen units.

    #129266

    eSmokefish
    Member

    I recently mentioned the inability to build these special city upgrades in dwellings in a thread I made, though it wasn’t really the point of that thread. While you can’t currently build them in regular play, you can at least set them as pre-built in the editor on custom maps.

    Regardless of that though, I raise my voice in support of this. I see no reason why it shouldn’t be allowed, ‘wasted’ or not in some cases. If the stars align and a player get hold of a Naga Dwelling with a Dungeon, or other such combinations, I’d say it would be better to allow it than to deny it by default.

    #129269

    Epaminondas
    Member

    If the stars align and a player get hold of a Naga Dwelling with a Dungeon, or other such combinations, I’d say it would be better to allow it than to deny it by default.

    I agree 100 percent. The purported dev logic is not persuasive, to say the least.

    #129286

    Gloweye
    Member

    As for the alternate bonuses, I don’t know, as they will make the system a lot more complicated. Perhaps something special could be done for all units not otherwise supported?

    Dunno, like any treasure site enabling a upgrade of the medal buildings of those dwellings, enabling a medal for the T4’s.

    Alternatively, more of the T4’s could be fitted in the existing categories. Giants for example, could be called Infantry without to much of a strech(Heavy infantry.) Dragons could maybe share a new upgrade together with elementals?(Shadow Stalkers!). The current fairies could get Irregular, and the Unicorns might benefit from the Stables of Vigor, since they are a kind of horses…

    Anyway, I am gonna post it in there.

    #129295

    Decker87
    Member

    Perhaps the current mystical upgrade give a bonus to giants and dragons, but the bonus is different from what you get normally.

    I think the goal of this thread is to get a clear thumbs-up/thumbs-down vote on allowing mystical city upgrades, as they are now, to be built in dwellings. Once we get brainstorming about new content, it can get quickly derailed.

    To answer OP’s question, I think they should be allowed, and frankly I don’t see any reason they shouldn’t be allowed. Whether or not it is a useful thing to build depends on the player’s situation, just like in a normal city. The game shouldn’t try to limit our options based on what is or is not likely to be useful.

    #129298

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Site-structures applying to the dwellings with class-typed units, I agree with entirely. Alternate-effect site-structures just so they can work with Dragons and Giants, I do not agree with at all.

    They might as well simply add another structure for the Fae dwelling to modify the units. Preferably after they add a T4 Leprechaun or Faerie Dragon, of course! Dragons, and to a lesser degree Giants, are already very powerful. Of course, the Naga are generally powerful too, but they are typed already, and it makes sense for them. The Glutton is not typed because it defies standard type categories, as do Dragons.

    That being said:
    Faeries -> Support
    Apprentice 2.0? When a Sorcerer manages to get them. I guess Devout, too, for Theocrats.
    Unicorn -> Cavalry

    Giants -> Infantry… maybe. Killing Momentum Giants, though… yikes.
    Ogres -> I can’t justify as Infantry, sorry.

    Dragons -> I can’t fairly justify as anything either.

    I don’t know, I’m just not seeing it as much as trying to force something where it isn’t really needed. When they could just add a new structure or two to the given dwellings instead of trying to come up with alternate effects for each type of site-structure when it’s in a non-typed dwelling. I would much rather be able to choose between(emphasis here) Obsidian or Golden Dragons, than get a structure for +# to something or other.

    #129300

    syntax_vi
    Member

    yes please 🙂

    #129309

    11balanced11
    Member

    I support that. Magical upgrades allow you to use dwellings more individually, making your choise for different unit types instead of following one standard scheme. But for the Dragons and Giants they seem to be useless…

    BTW, what’s about Obsidian Wyvern / Dragon line in the Dragon Peak? I think it is easy and logical (Fire line opposes Ice, Evil should oppose Good). Why don’t the devs add it?

    #129310

    Ricminator
    Member

    Interesting idea, I agree too.

    #129323

    Althea
    Member

    This is a bit off topic, but i believe this is worthy to be mentioned.

    About Good vs Evil, or Golden Dragon vs Obsidian Dragon, i can see the reason why one of them limits the other.

    But about the Fire vs Ice dragon, if building one of them limiting the other, it will hamper the player freedom to counter his problems, and dragon peak is very rare.

    You need fire dragon sometimes, other time you need frost dragon. It’s not rare in a map with more than 2 players that both fire dragon and frost dragon are needed, if one of them limiting the other, you’d need two dragon peaks to solve your problem, while dragon peak are very rare.

    #129325

    As I said in the other thread, I’m in favor of this.

    #129327

    Gloweye
    Member

    Faeries -> Support

    Giants -> Infantry… maybe. Killing Momentum Giants, though… yikes.

    That’s the point. Add in that you’re gonna have a dungeon, and you’ll be getting them at 3 turns each, without rushing…

    As for the fey, there are already loads of support units in dwellings. thats one reasons I suggested Irregular, but Archer could be named to….Though they’ll have less use than other archers, since its not going to open up a new channel for them.

    Making the Mystical Upgrades even more awesome.

    As for the dragons, how about they could use the Wizards tower upgrade? either just the medal, or maybe a boost to breath attacks…

    #129329

    Althea
    Member

    I suppose this thread already function as a brainstorming thread too then.

    Making the Mystical Upgrades even more awesome.

    As for the dragons, how about they could use the Wizards tower upgrade? either just the medal, or maybe a boost to breath attacks…

    Very creative idea.

    Maybe forbidden sanctum can even function as a lesser version of it, if we look at sanctum and wizard tower, aside from mystical upgrade, normally both give secret spells, both bonus are related to wisdom and knowledge things, however sanctum often give the lower tier spell. I don’t see any problem if both give same bonus, but forbidden sanctum give lesser bonus than wizard tower.

    I think dungeon can provide a mystical upgrade to dragons and giants to boost production beside the passive bonus from the dungeon itself. It’s simple to do compared to giving dragons/giants anti infantry capability.

    #129332

    Sounds like a good idea to me, gets my vote.

    #129353

    No new buildings please.

    Allow current upgrades in dwellings.

    Basically, what Fen said.

    iirc none of the current mystical upgrades will affect Dragons or Giants, and imhi neither should they…

    #129360

    I don’t know, I’m just not seeing it as much as trying to force something where it isn’t really needed. When they could just add a new structure or two to the given dwellings instead of trying to come up with alternate effects for each type of site-structure when it’s in a non-typed dwelling. I would much rather be able to choose between(emphasis here) Obsidian or Golden Dragons, than get a structure for +# to something or other.

    I will concur with the Druid and the Stabby man. We Dragons (and those filthy mammals) are already strong enough without rejiggering stuff too much. If you did want to add a medal, you’d just increase the cost of the first age building and stick it there.

    That being said, I’m a little leery of allowing the mystical structures to be built even in the dwellings where they could have an impact (naga or undead/farie) for the following reason. It would make getting the dwelling without that treasure structure seem really annoying. especially with the Naga.

    With racial cities, on the other hand, you can move a city to get the particularly important one, or migrate: i.e., place elves with a focus chamber, or dwarves with the mana tree.

    So if this were unlocked, I’d also like to see something that made sure that at least one treasure site with an upgrade was spawned in the radius of at least one dwelling it can impact.

    Actually, I have a whole set of rmg dwelling related improvements which I will post about shortly.

    #129366

    Hunter
    Member

    Sounds good, as per Fen, BBB.

    It is usually the case that they sit JUST outside the range of the dwelling. And there is nothing you can do to expand (except for Naga, one extra range). It is frustrating. Not sure it should be changed though.

    #129372

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Personally, I’m for it. While I see where Chrysophylax is coming from on a frustration perspective, I could also see it being frustrating to have a good site within a dwelling’s domain which means you lose the mystical upgrade… Particularly when the dwelling COULD benefit. However, I don’t think any dwelling is going to be turned down on the basis of not having an upgrade.

    The stated reason is to avoid less experienced players from wasting money and production building a mystical upgrade that doesn’t provide any benefit. This can probably be covered by having a particular dwelling only be able to produce upgrades you can actually use.

    #129385

    happyworld
    Member

    +1 Mystical City Upgrades in dwellings.
    +1 alternate and additional upgrades and buildings.

    Why? More options and content = more longevity, new discoveries and ways to play the game

    #129387

    Kaiosama TLJ
    Member

    +1 to this.

    Sadly I don’t have anything more to add.

    #129391

    Personally, I’m for it. While I see where Chrysophylax is coming from on a frustration perspective, I could also see it being frustrating to have a good site within a dwelling’s domain which means you lose the mystical upgrade… Particularly when the dwelling COULD benefit. However, I don’t think any dwelling is going to be turned down on the basis of not having an upgrade.

    It would at least be nice if you could have sort of a dwelling related builder (limit of one) that could build a special fort (also limit one) to acquire stuff. I hate it when Dragon dwellings lack production boost structures.

    #129402

    Aennor
    Member

    Count me in.

    +1 Mystical City Upgrades in dwellings.
    +1 alternate and additional upgrades and buildings.
    Why? More options and content = more longevity, new discoveries and ways to play the game

    My thoughts exactly

    #129408

    NuMetal
    Member

    As I said in the other thread:

    Hell yes!
    Please enable this again! 🙂

    (no new buildings though. That’d be actual work and I personally don’t even think it’s necessary. Just enabling the mystical city upgrades in dwellings on the other hand should come with almost no effort.)

    #129432

    Althea
    Member

    It would at least be nice if you could have sort of a dwelling related builder (limit of one) that could build a special fort (also limit one) to acquire stuff. I hate it when Dragon dwellings lack production boost structures.

    That’s a great idea, i also want that.

    I also hate the lack of production in dragon dwellings. But i have a feeling that is to give giant dwelling a chance to be picked than dragon dwelling, provided you have both. There are times when i feel giant dwelling as better than dragon dwelling because giants can be produced much faster than dragons.

    #131713

    meeber
    Member

    I put this in another thread and they suggested I add it here to show my support for this idea.

    “When a Treasure Site building is within a Special City zone they should also have the benefits of that site just as normal cities do. Which should include the special units and the buildings that need to be built inside the city.
    For example if the Mermaid building is within the border of a Giant city then they should be able to create them (after building the special building to unlock them.)”

    And for those site that give buff (rank etc.) to a unit that the Dwelling does not have give it something else. And yes I’m for adding buildings to the Dwellings.
    And this would be a perfect opportunity to give dwellings more unit types.
    for example:
    A) Wizard Tower Ruin could give the Giants a Ogre Magi with unique abilities.

    You could do all sorts of interesting stuff with this and keep these dwellings unique and not so boring. Don’t get me wrong I love the dwellings but they need more variety of buildings and unit and the Mystical City Upgrades would be just they thing to give them that added push.

    #131733

    Adding options to dwellings would be cool. I wish they weren’t so easy to cheese free units or allegiance with random quests though, at least the tier 4 capable ones.

    #131761

    Althea
    Member

    And for those site that give buff (rank etc.) to a unit that the Dwelling does not have give it something else. And yes I’m for adding buildings to the Dwellings.
    And this would be a perfect opportunity to give dwellings more unit types.
    for example:
    A) Wizard Tower Ruin could give the Giants a Ogre Magi with unique abilities.

    Hmm.., while this is interesting idea, and i also want it to happen, it somehow a bit in conflict with the game lore regarding dwelling units.

    It is said Ogre is too degenerated that they lose the magical capability of their fore fathers, the giants.

    However the wizard tower can boost the giants elemental damage, e.g: fire giant get +5 bonus fire damage.

    And as Gloweye suggested, it can also boost other dwellings, e.g: dragons’s breath attack get a damage boost.

    #131774

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I don’t know.
    I’m not sure, for example, whether a Tomb in a Sylvan Court dwelling should really have an effect. I don’t think that makes a lot of sense – logically they would raze it, probably (Quest: Raze the Tomb).

    I’m quite happy with the way Dwellings are – if anything, I would like more DWELLINGS as a home and recruiting point for special units.

    For example, the Elementals are so good, that it’s nearly too bad to have them spammed via spell. An ELEMENTAL CONFLUX dwelling might be nice.

    Also, dwellings are a pretty good way to bring in PART of the “lost” races: We won’t get many full races, maybe they will make Frostlings, but more? However, a dwelling is a lot less work, since there are no class units. Dark Elven Dwelling? Nomad dwelling (can be moved). Tigran dwelling? Demon dwelling?

    Why not?

    That said, considering that there is a special theme underlying each dwelling, there might be ONE of those locations for each dwelling, adding a little something (and of course it would that much more rarely happen that you’d get a dwelling with the fitting location in the town radius).

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