Mystical city upgrades, they suck/need changed

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Mystical city upgrades, they suck/need changed

This topic contains 52 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by  BB Shockwave 6 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #215577

    sharky
    Member

    I’ve been trying really hard to make the mystical upgrades make any kind of sense in my games. But in all honesty, they are just horrible.
    My gripes are thus far.

    1. Planning for a mystic upgraded unit means you either plant your city right on top of it, or you are at the mercy of the randomness of neutral city spawn locations which have God given talents for completely sucking at covering mystical upgrades, preferably by one hex short.
    Both create the issue of having to make it extremely future based to plan for mystic upgraded troops, as you are really just rushing being able to 2 turn or 1 turn troops or the income to make them.

    2. This isn’t really an end-game game. You are playing the Sims or some empire building simulator if you plan for tier 3/4’s outside of some rush build in your capital.
    If you can’t get mystic upgrades to cover tier1/2’s that actually retain value late game there is no point in even messing with them. Which makes for an insanely short list of unit/class combo’s that benefit from them. Just focussing on unit levels blows these buffs out of the water, as well as fielding 4 tier3 units instead of 2 with a buff.
    You really should take the enemy city instead of rubbing your hand together over having a minor stat increase that barely synergize with anything but the warlord class.
    This way you suddenly eliminated income from your foe and gained some yourself, instead of dumping turns and resources into something that doesn’t pay off after a MASS production of units that may not fit your need or be countered easily if you invest in them.
    This will make you more tech focused, and able to create your units from a city commonly FAR behind your front lines.

    3. So far the only time I have found a good use for these upgrades is when they are paired with another upgrade that also boosts the same unit, be it a “heart of …..” or a mystic upgrade.
    The double upgrade creates the obvious force multiplier making it worth while to really consider over force multipliers of territories held, cities created, troops fielded.
    This sounds so dramatic, but when you play the game you are always short on resources just jumping at the bit to get enough for a new city upgrade or unit to continue your offensive/defensive pressure.
    IN simpler terms, you won’t make mystic upgrades unless you are comfortable/safe. Or in other words, when you won already but didn’t finish.
    Mystic upgrades that start at 150 resources or so have no place in early game or smaller cities, and even later game don’t become viable until you can 1 or 2 turn them under optimal circumstances.

    4. Mystic upgrades have a humongous discrepancy in value in favor of the warlord class and secondarily melee units.
    Which creates overpowered tier 1 and 2 troops with the combination of global assault and mystic upgrades for super cheap powerhouses.
    There is very little there for elemental and animal units from mystic upgrades. There is fear strike for monsters (and infantry) from the “dark citadel” site, while the more viable monsters tend to have fear inducing abilities already and be ranged focused.

    5. My suggestion is one of these options:
    -Make mystic upgrades inherent like heart structures, which I prefer.
    -Make mystic upgrades a free upgrade that increases the cost of units upgraded by them, with the cost of the stats added. Which will allow you the option to disable mystic upgrades if they make units take too many turns. Or a disable/enable mystic upgrade option.
    -Just make mystic upgrades add cost to the units it upgrades according to the stats value.

    6. Final suggestion, add a little more for animals and elementals/dragons.

    #215578

    Gloweye
    Member

    So, basically, you’re claiming they’re weak, and ask for nerfs?

    -Make mystic upgrades a free upgrade that increases the cost of units upgraded by them, with the cost of the stats added. Which will allow you the option to disable mystic upgrades if they make units take too many turns. Or a disable/enable mystic upgrade option.
    -Just make mystic upgrades add cost to the units it upgrades according to the stats value.

    Both of these are pretty heavy nerfs, even if you’d get their effect without a building.

    As for variance, I can’t imagine a bad thing about more upgrades. However, I do think they’re useful – though it’ll always depend on circumstance, and Sorc/AD aren’t going to get the use a Warlord, Necromancer or Theocrat gets.

    #215586

    thabob79
    Member

    I like mcu as they are now

    #215589

    Hasbulat
    Member

    I srtongly agree, that this site-upgrades are mainly absolutely useless, even the strongest of them. So, I think also, they are to be changed, the system, how they works is to be reorgenized.
    I like them, but in the game most of them has no usage at the moment unfortunatly.

    #215590

    Nodor
    Member

    wow.

    I could not disagree more.

    #215591

    reidmc
    Member

    I think their current implementation is great, my only complaint is that I want more of them.

    #215592

    pikaq
    Member

    It’s not easy.It should be like this.Why you think it should be easy to produce a unit with mystic updrade?
    There is no mystic updrade for animals because you can’t produce animals.The summoning mystic updrade is ready for animals.And the elemental is the same except shadow stalker.But I think shadow stalker is ok with the heart structure updrade
    In fact some units with mystic updrade are very easy to get,like the summoning mystic updrade: arcane catalyst/library of the dark arts.The units with flowrock quarry updrate and slaughter pits updrate are easy to get because the building add production.
    You just need think a way to get what you want quickly.That’s the game.The most important is how to add production to get the units with mystic updrade faster.You need use your head,not depend on the developer to make everything ready for you.
    If you get all without paying effort,then the game dies.

    #215599

    NINJEW
    Member

    you don’t go out of your way to get them unless you’re planning on settling a new city anyway. they’re good but not game changers so just care less about them dude.

    #215600

    The problem with making dragon (or giant only) mystic upgrades is that you can’t make a dragon settler, so they would almost always be useless. Otherwise, I think that mcu are in a good place. They add spice, but don’t determine strategy.

    #215605

    pikaq
    Member

    If you want to use a mystic updrade faster,here is one way:choose expander specilazation.
    You will get 20 production after your settler becomes an outpost.Then you can build the builder house/siege workshop/master guild faster.And then you get more production to do the later work.
    Every class get other ways to make it faster,because every class have ways to improve the city morale.Furthermore,Rogue can cast iron grip on the city,dreadnought can cast mana fuel cells on the city,arch druid can cast fertile domain on the city,theocraft can cast beacon of faith on the city(and the global spell sanctified sites),worlord can cast authority of the sword.
    sometimes you can let the workers build a fortress and updrade to a stone fortress,then you let the settler come.You can get some treasure sites (like the sites add your production) in your domain from the start.
    Sorry if my words hurt you.My English is bad and I don’t know how to express very well.I don’t want to offend anybody.

    #215606

    Hasbulat
    Member

    It’s not easy.It should be like this.Why you think it should be easy to produce a unit with mystic updrade?

    Becouse I like archers and infantery, all T 1 and T2 units and I wont use them through all the game. Through early and more mighty site upgrade it will be possivble to make them resonable for the whole game, not for the beginning only.

    Additional, I would offer to implement for T1 and T2 units much more stronger ability at the elite and master level.

    With the Monsters and Animals, you are right, they are strong enough and they get emire upgrades from class and specialization. So I dont see, there are stll anything to do.

    #215610

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    T1 and T2 units ARE reasonable for the whole game.

    If you don’t like the way the game develops try a change of game settings.

    #215611

    Hasbulat
    Member

    T1 and T2 units ARE reasonable for the whole game.

    Yes, the are, and they are as well just one shot for each t3 or t4. So, where is the reason, to have them in the group? Just for the first turn of a battle???

    And what settings do you mean? Siplest difficulty? You are right, there they are kings. But no, thanks.

    And please, dont tell me, what I should like and what dislike, just tell you meaning, that’s enough. 😉

    #215614

    pikaq
    Member

    Becouse I like archers and infantery, all T 1 and T2 units and I wont use them through all the game. Through early and more mighty site upgrade it will be possivble to make them resonable for the whole game, not for the beginning only.

    Additional, I would offer to implement for T1 and T2 units much more stronger ability at the elite and master level.

    With the Monsters and Animals, you are right, they are strong enough and they get emire upgrades from class and specialization. So I dont see, there are stll anything to do.

    T1 and T2 need less experience to reach champion level,this is their advantage.
    In fact,some T1 and T2 can be reasonable for the whole game,not the beginning only.For example,sun guard,draconian crusher and charger with the race upgrade.In fact, even in the late game,you need not only the attack,but also defense.Some T1 and T2 is good at defense.So they are useful too,even the enemy didn’t attack you at all.They are doing their jobs.
    And you can’t expect all the T1 and T2 have the important effect in the late game.Besides,It depends on how you play and what enemy you are facing.And some people like to play T3 and T4 in the late game,you can’t let so many T1 and T2 to have more use than T3 and T4 in the late game.
    You want to enhance the T1 and T2,I can understand.But mystic upgrade is not the only way.We have race updrade now.What we can do is take the most use of the mystic updrade,and think other way to enhance our T1 and T2

    #215618

    pikaq
    Member

    It’s not easy.It should be like this.Why you think it should be easy to produce a unit with mystic updrade?

    Becouse I like archers and infantery, all T 1 and T2 units and I wont use them through all the game. Through early and more mighty site upgrade it will be possivble to make them resonable for the whole game, not for the beginning only.

    Additional, I would offer to implement for T1 and T2 units much more stronger ability at the elite and master level.

    With the Monsters and Animals, you are right, they are strong enough and they get emire upgrades from class and specialization. So I dont see, there are stll anything to do.

    Some T1 and T2:goblin butcher(4 upkeep and with the shadowborn specilization,the goblin butcher get greater life stealing),All the T2 support units,Lost soul with greater life stealing,sun guard/royal guard,and so on.
    Besides,if you like the T1’s attack,but worried about his living ability. You can cast phoenix worrier on him or let theocraft lead him.Or other ways.How to arrange your units in the battlefield is a challenge too.I think it’s interesting

    #215619

    NINJEW
    Member

    Yes, the are, and they are as well just one shot for each t3 or t4. So, where is the reason, to have them in the group? Just for the first turn of a battle???

    And what settings do you mean? Siplest difficulty? You are right, there they are kings. But no, thanks.

    And please, dont tell me, what I should like and what dislike, just tell you meaning, that’s enough.

    T3 and T4 spam becomes way less viable against more difficult opponents. T1 and T2 units are great forever, because they cost less, so you can field more of them, which gives you a numbers advantage. Which lets you pull tricks like chain flanking and AP draining. You also don’t need to waste 30 turns spending ludicrious sums of gold in order to get a city that can pump them out. You build a city with a builder’s hall by a quarry and you’re all set to shit out t2 units 1 per turn right away.

    The Warlord basically depends on this to survive in multiplayer.

    I suspect you have not actually played against particularly challenging opponents if you think t1s and t2s are just “taking up a slot that a t3 could take.” t1s and t2s are far more cost efficient than t3s and t4s, which matters way more when you’re up against a tough opponent where every drop of gold counts.

    #215621

    CrazyElf
    Member

    I disagree that changes are needed for the existing mystical structures.

    The OP’s ideas are contradictory. He complains they are too weak and then wants them weakened more?

    #215626

    Gloweye
    Member

    Becouse I like archers and infantery, all T 1 and T2 units and I wont use them through all the game. Through early and more mighty site upgrade it will be possivble to make them resonable for the whole game, not for the beginning only.

    So let’s say we make a better one for Infantry….that means the T3 infantry is going to benefit even more from getting it.

    If you want to address that perceived imbalance, Mystical City Upgrades are the wrong place.

    Furthermore, there are multiple pretty good upgrades. Focus Chamber is insane, giving a ranged damage channel and Mind Control Immunity, Enchanted Armory can often be put on the same unit as others can, and turns a halfling into a dwarf in terms of survivability, and there’s no better Deathbringer than one with Killing Momentum.

    #215627

    cleric
    Member

    I strongly disagree. MCUs (as they are now) are one of the beste features in this game. There is no need to change them! If you aren’t able to take advantage of them, maybe you should optimize your gameplay…

    #215682

    Teehon
    Member

    2. This isn’t really an end-game game. You are playing the Sims or some empire building simulator if you plan for tier 3/4’s outside of some rush build in your capital.
    If you can’t get mystic upgrades to cover tier1/2’s that actually retain value late game there is no point in even messing with them. Which makes for an insanely short list of unit/class combo’s that benefit from them. Just focussing on unit levels blows these buffs out of the water, as well as fielding 4 tier3 units instead of 2 with a buff.

    I dare say, you just didn’t get to the level where you can see their value.

    I play dwarf warlord, I find a place with a Cristal Tree and a Dungeon. I rush a settler, build an outpost, cast Embrace Darkness and after 5 turns I start pumping out such mean Axemen with 14 base defense, Leach Life, almost 20 physical damage thanks to the Dungeon and the 2nd RGU that 3 Imperor AIs fell to their axes. Didn’t produce any units in my capitol at all.

    Basically, MCU make a lot of low-level units viable mid- and even endgame thanks to their buffs not scaling to the unit levels and unchanged cost of the units. My Terminator Axemen Squads are formidable enemies even against t4 AND they cost 55 Gold to build and 4 Gold to feed. Even if your tier 4 kills two of them before dying, it wasn’t even half the cost of the unit.

    The only thing I’d like is MORE MCU! With more crazy stuff which gives units new strategical and tactical abilities.

    #215688

    Lykus
    Member

    MCU are great. I wish we wouldd get even more structures with more upgrades.

    Maybe and additional one for machines? (i know there are already a lot for dreadnought and it would probably difficult to balance, but I just love this class)

    #215694

    Teehon
    Member

    MCU are great. I wish we wouldd get even more structures with more upgrades.

    Maybe and additional one for machines? (i know there are already a lot for dreadnought and it would probably difficult to balance, but I just love this class)

    Agree! For example a MCU which gives machines 3HP per Turn passive regeneration and something like Inflict Dazzled (ranged machines only attack once a turn) would be cool.

    #215695

    ExNihil
    Member

    I think their current implementation is great, my only complaint is that I want more of them.

    +1

    #215696

    Nodor
    Member

    I would like a “walking” MCU, and a heart for subterranean, but more of similar for these awesome upgrades please.

    #215698

    Teehon
    Member

    Just a thought: some class mechanics can be used in a form of MCU, for example researching a certain upgrade for a Dread allows his builders create an Alchemy Lab on the world map, which cost the city money instead of giving more but allows building a MCU with awesome bonuses to Irregular and Archer units!

    #215706

    ExNihil
    Member

    Hi guys,

    Made a thread that might interest you:

    http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/heart-structures-as-mcus/

    Ex

    #215719

    Hasbulat
    Member

    I strongly disagree. MCUs (as they are now) are one of the beste features in this game. There is no need to change them! If you aren’t able to take advantage of them, maybe you should optimize your gameplay…

    Or you should optimize your game play.
    Children, children…
    There are two general strategies in the game play in order to win optimal:

    1. Early rush with couple of t1-t2 armies,
    2. Quick research strait ahead to t4 and rush with army of t4, or mixed army with t4 as a basement.
    Both of them are deadly for each enemy. And in both of them is no space for mystical upgrades. They are – lost time, gold and production in both cases.

    And ones more. No t1 has a chance against t3-t4. Thats why a would prefere the system with site upgrades, wich I like as idea very much shuld be reorganized in order to give a chance for t1,t2 in the late game and make different strategies possible.

    Sure there are some exeptions in the best case, but, exeption is exeption only.

    #215722

    Or you should optimize your game play.
    Children, children…
    There are two general strategies in the game play in order to win optimal:
    1. Early rush with couple of t1-t2 armies,
    2. Quick research strait ahead to t4 and rush with army of t4, or mixed army with t4 as a basement.
    Both of them are deadly for each enemy. And in both of them is no space for mystical upgrades. They are – lost time, gold and production in both cases.
    And ones more. No t1 has a chance against t3-t4. Thats why a would prefere the system with site upgrades, wich I like as idea very much shuld be reorganized in order to give a chance for t1,t2 in the late game and make different strategies possible.
    Sure there are some exeptions in the best case, but, exeption is exeption only.

    Not every game is played to win Lord Hasbulat, sometimes you have to let go of your urge to win to let your honor prevail.

    Not every game plays on a small map, or medium.
    Not every game is a 1 VS 1 duel.
    Not every game is the same as the game before.

    Lose your short sight and embrace the possibilities. MCU are fine right now because they are made to make long games more interesting with more variation and tactical possibilities.

    So it is not optimizing your gameplay in getting better in the game, it is optimizing your gameplay to see all the features this game has to offer. And not fit the game completely to a small piece you are playing right now!

    #215724

    Hasbulat
    Member

    Stop trolling. Lets speak about the game, bot about my self, please.

    #215725

    Stop trolling. Lets speak about the game, bot about my self, please.

    I am not talking about you. or your honor is that lacking that you automatically assume that it is a personal attack.

    I suggest that you read my post again, thus you get a second chance to create a response.

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