May 4, 2015 at 23:45 #194083
There needs to be some sort of rework to make this relevant.Adding interception range ala Totalwar to make it that navies can actually stop invasions.Also some sort of land bombardment on the map and blockade system to hurt your enemies from sea.
It just seem pointless to build ships apart from clearing sea hubs.May 4, 2015 at 23:48 #194084
Pretty dependent on map settings…just like cave crawling is useless when you turn off the underground. Take continents or even islands and you’ll see the use increase.May 5, 2015 at 01:24 #194094
THE Black KnightMember
Pretty dependent on map settings…just like cave crawling is useless when you turn off the underground. Take continents or even islands and you’ll see the use increase.
well… sorry but I kind of disagree. The naval game is quite pointless, really consider the trouble we would have to go through in order to have a ship: build prerequisite for port, build a port, build the ship… which can only sail and does nothing on the land where units are most needed.
Many posts have been written in order to convince the devs to reduce the autonomy of flyers and swimmers at sea (amphibious swimmers and flyers should drawn if they end two consecutive turns on water!!! they should HAVE to rest on the land (and even their fighting skills should be GREATLY reduced at sea)
Until there are not objectives at sea, and ships do not have a STRONG predominance against all another kind of units, there won’t really be any point in producing them at all!!May 5, 2015 at 02:29 #194099
I agree more with Gloweye, though if this were pre-1.5, I’d be on Black Knight’s side 100%.
Having played on islands maps with the new embarking penalties, I CAN say that ships can effectively run down embarked units and that ships punch way above their tier against embarked units. You can actually slaughter a stack of tier 3 embarked units (without advanced seafaring and without mariner) with just a fleet of one or two Galleons and lots of frigates. Also, the Galleons and frigates cost very little to initially produce, so they are pretty cost effective. I dominated the campaign’s Rockshoal islands and Sapphire archipelago maps by building fleets after the patch.
Let me explain how fleets work best: in the RockShoal islands campaign, I started out by sinking the fleet of the sorcerer in the northwest and then started patrolling near the archdruid and dreadnought to the west. I built frigate heavy-fleets with some baby krakens and a singular galleon each. I must have had three full fleets (one was sunk) and a second harassment fleet by the end of the game. Using the ships’ superior sight range, I cast “Incite revolt” on most of the enemy cities, and I befriended just about all independent cities on the map. Whenever the AI sent out embarked units to reinforce their separated cities, I was able to run them down and kill them. It’s funny, but pre-1.5, I dreaded this map because embarked units had the same move speed as ships and could easily outpace them (making ships ABSOLUTELY worthless!), but it ended up being one of the most memorable campaign maps after the naval changes.
One small caveat after 1.555: Ironclads are now a major exception to my efficiency statement about ships, given that they cost the most and have higher upkeep as well without giving a substantial increase in efficiency.
As for the purpose of naval units, the devs have made some improvements by adding more structures in the water and adding a reef colony dwelling (with some pretty nice units!). I still think that there should be just a few more resource nodes, but apart from that, navies are pretty nice to have now.May 5, 2015 at 03:02 #194103
When you try to shave off 8 turns of travel by hoping across one water tile and then a couple passing galleons kill all your T4s let me know how useless it is ;). It has happened to me time and time again, I now almost always bring escort if I can.May 5, 2015 at 03:27 #194105
OK, not 30 minutes ago, I had a great example of a situation where navies saved the day! 🙂
This was the official campaign map 2, and Ja’Vasqa saw that my reef dwelling was unprotected. I had just a rag-tag band of swimming units against (enemy total gold cost per turn: 68):
- 8 cheetahs (tier 1)
- 1 sunguard (tier 1)
- 1 mystic (tier 2)
- 1 nymph (tier 2)
- 1 sphinx (tier 3)
My forces were (total unit cost per turn: 44):
- 1 hunter (tier 1)
- 3 frigates (tier 2)
- 1 lost mariner (tier 2)
- 1 mermaid (tier 2)
- 1 galleon (tier 3)
The combat odds were “Closely Matched” (not accurate, I know, but the AI thought it was safe!). The AI was wiped out, and I lost a frigate and the mermaid.
In the battle, the lack of mobility of all of the embarked units meant that they were easy prey for the “fire ballista” and “fire arrows” abilities of my ships. Interestingly enough, the Sphinx was embarked! Apparently “lesser flying” does not allow it to fly in naval tactical combat! I’ve attached a screenshot to verify this. I didn’t even play this 100% tactically as I moved the mermaid in for a suicide seduction on one of the cheetahs (it failed — damn).
Attachments:May 5, 2015 at 05:52 #194123
Also, my Ironclads can clear out naval dungeons my normal armies usually cannot – and the loot from those can be instrumental in winning the game.
Armies move way slower during ocean battles than by land. In my experience, it’s my fleets that are my best defense on island maps, not land units. Having some support units embarked on boats to use True Sight to detect invaders and then smashing into invaders with Frigates and Ironclads is a great way to protect your islands from most threats. Heck, you don’t even need supports to do the watching unless you’re fighting sharkmen. Err, Human Assassins.May 5, 2015 at 07:18 #194137
I believe the movement points goes from 24 to 27 to 33 for each upgrade of the ships they embark on. Personally, the beauty with researching ironclad is the movement point bonus and the resistance and weakness shift that it brings. Other than that, I can’t say much. I haven’t even figured out the requirements to build a harbor yet!May 5, 2015 at 07:45 #194142
I believe the movement points goes from 24 to 27 to 33 for each upgrade of the ships they embark on. Personally, the beauty with researching ironclad is the movement point bonus and the resistance and weakness shift that it brings. Other than that, I can’t say much. I haven’t even figured out the requirements to build a harbor yet!
It requires only the builder hall to be present in the city I believe. And the city must be adjacent to body of water.May 5, 2015 at 07:48 #194143
I haven’t even figured out the requirements to build a harbor yet!
Build a city Adjacent to water. Maybe a builder’s hall, but not sure about that. But you’ll want one anyway. And if you got the time, a Master’s Guild will both give them a medal on construction and it’ll turn the harbor into a place where the ships are automatically repaired.
In my experience, the 2nd map of the campaign is one where you need ships to guard your coast – you start out with some, and with a bit of kiting in combat, you can destroy armies that are vastly superior to your ships without much issues. This allows you to have at least 1 Merfolk Dwelling, which can just churn out Lords of the Deep, which are incredible useful if you put one in every stack.May 5, 2015 at 09:15 #194181
1) warships are very useful on maps with enough water (islands, continents)
2) warships are absurdly powerful already
3) new water dwelling means that water has a strategic importance, emphasizing warship power even more.May 5, 2015 at 11:09 #194228
I play Continents maps with a fairly high water ratio (Usually produces a central area of two large-ish continents connected by small land bridges, and a plethora of smaller islands around the edge of the map), and I’m going to have to agree with the people who say that Navies are useful.
Post 1.5 I’ve been getting a lot of use out of them, and specifically building lots of ships to chase down my embarked enemies. They’re incredibly cost effective at killing enemy stacks that are embarked.May 5, 2015 at 13:52 #194281
For me ships are just too suicidal. They take damage easily due to speeds in naval combat and they aren’t easy to put a repair unit with. Due to embark penalties dread heroes basically commit suicide while moping along. And even human dreads move too slow. You basically need a flyer/floating hero with repair machine(don’t even bring up embarking builders, they basically die instantly).
My solution would be a ‘builder’ ship that could build sea forts/towers(akin to forts and watch towers on land). This would allow you to claim resources far out to sea and make a ship that can do repairs like the builder can. You could perhaps even give it sabotage to make it a ship counter without giving it general combat abilities(if it had an attack option like sabotage, perhaps it could be like the engineer and have maintenance at start and get repair machine at gold). Wonder if sabotage could be made to also hit embarked units?May 5, 2015 at 13:56 #194283
For me ships are just too suicidal. They take damage easily due to speeds in naval combat and they aren’t easy to put a repair unit with.
Not really? I use them on Island maps to great effectiveness. I build a few port towns, get the guilds going, and bam – easy access to repairs.
(don’t even bring up embarking builders, they basically die instantly).
I didn’t even think of that one; I just use ports. Okay, so they die instantly: don’t bring them into battles if you can avoid it. have a couple Builders travel in a separate group behind your navy. That’ll help a LOT.
My solution would be a ‘builder’ ship that could build sea forts/towers(akin to forts and watch towers on land). This would allow you to claim resources far out to sea and make a ship that can do repairs like the builder can.
I like this idea, though. This is a good idea.May 6, 2015 at 01:07 #194571
Ports with guilds are usually a bit rare for me until late game since most of the cities I can build a port in are often not my good unit producers. Plus having to hover ships in your own territory makes them rather ineffective. When your ships are 5+ turns out clearing ports aren’t very useful. And dread heroes just don’t work well with ships. In fact if I recall right, ships override the party leader slot for them. So you can’t even use your party buffs.May 6, 2015 at 03:23 #194584
Ports with guilds are usually a bit rare for me until late game since most of the cities I can build a port in are often not my good unit producers. Plus having to hover ships in your own territory makes them rather ineffective. When your ships are 5+ turns out clearing ports aren’t very useful. And dread heroes just don’t work well with ships. In fact if I recall right, ships override the party leader slot for them. So you can’t even use your party buffs.
Play the long game. If your ships is out there clearing the Independents, it becomes safer for your settlers to travel out into the wild and found necessary ports. And they can now retreat to newly found ports to repair.
And each port city you found is extra source of GPT that wont’ even existed at all if it wasn’t for the ships.May 6, 2015 at 06:05 #194631
Nothing strange that naval games are pointless. One design mistake was made, noticed many time by gamers and stays unfixed.
There is just no sense and possibility to control the see. Enemy can embark anywhere, can disembark anywhere. You can’t cover entire sea with your ships, it’s very expensive and non-profitable, because ships can’t help your surface warfare.
Most sea sites have one use, you clear them and… and that’s all. He could to give some profits for your empire but they’re often located too far from your coastal cities and can’t be covered by city domain. You can’t even place some structure like fort for gathering additional money, productions, science or mana.
New sea dwelling is fun but couldn’t save situation.May 6, 2015 at 13:43 #195025
Ah! It has to be right next to the water hex! I thought long as it has a clear road to the water hex in its domain is enough. Silly me 😛
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