Necromancer Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Necromancer Balance Discussion

This topic contains 463 replies, has 29 voices, and was last updated by  Ericridge 6 years, 9 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 271 through 300 (of 464 total)
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  • #218401

    Zaskow
    Member

    You can give Dread Reaper Deteriorating strike. A T4 shouldn’t be THAT useless.

    Reaper is okish.
    Making of T4 the main countermeasure against machines is bad idea. Especially, when this T4 is summon.

    #218405

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    The Deathbringer shouldn’t be a universal weapon. For me Necro is ok. Giving them a special attack creature that also has Ghoul Curse makes it just too handy for everything. Reaper is crap against a machine.
    Also, I can’t imagine anyone finding Necro inferior in MIDGAME against Dread. Otherwise I’d have to say you just can’t play that Class (yet).
    Also, a unit with det strioke wouldn’t be the main weapon against machines. That’s the Bone Collector OR racial units, and I don’t intend to start that bull all over again.

    #218408

    Zaskow
    Member

    Also, I can’t imagine anyone finding Necro inferior in MIDGAME against Dread. Otherwise I’d have to say you just can’t play that Class (yet).

    You know, in mid-game Dread can have juggers. Also I don’t mind flame tanks and cannons.

    #218410

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, how often do you mass each unit? How quickly can you spam ’em? And how mobile are they? I’m seriously asking, so pls answer 😃.

    #218420

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    What Dread can have depend on research output and that depends on the amount of towns and research sites to capitalize which depends on settings. And on opponents letting Dread expand.

    #218423

    NINJEW
    Member

    Also, I can’t imagine anyone finding Necro inferior in MIDGAME against Dread. Otherwise I’d have to say you just can’t play that Class (yet).

    i literally define my dread midgame as “the point at which i have seeker and can 1turn cannons”

    i don’t think there’s any class that can match that kind of extreme midgame firepower. Cannons are sort of the turning point for Dread, where they shift from being “kinda neat” to “god damn unstoppable in tactical.” it’s arguably unbalanced (balanced by strategic woes instead of tactical weaknesses, if it’s enough or not tends to depend on if you’re the guy behind the cannons or in front of them)

    #218424

    NINJEW
    Member

    What Dread can have depend on research output and that depends on the amount of towns and research sites to capitalize which depends on settings. And on opponents letting Dread expand.

    i mean i was regularly achieving turn 25 cannons on small maps when i first started, with like 2 vassals (i was also way more hardcore about following my optimized build orders, over now where i just kinda wing it because that’s more fun and i know what i need well enough anyway).

    dread is kinda bad at expansion, especially since dread benefits a lot more from building high instead of wide. so “does opponent let dread expand” is mostly a factor once midgame has already begun.

    of course, out-expanding a dread is basically the primary way of beating one, so it’s certainly a consideration.

    #218429

    quo
    Member

    i literally define my dread midgame as “the point at which i have seeker and can 1turn cannons”

    Seconded. Cannons usually unlock for me around the time I have a few Golem armies that have radiated out to clear leftover nodes.

    I don’t take Air Mastery in single player that often because Seeker is the “obvious” choice for Dreads and I kind of don’t like that, but yeah my idea of a “superior” spec for a Dread is Air/Gray/Expander, with Air there because of Seeker.

    #218437

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Except Cannon does nothing against Banshees (or as much as against Phantasm Warriors). Cannon with two Medals does 32 damage; against Def 10 (two Medals), thats 24-40 damage; 60% Resistance means, it leaves 10-16 damage. So that’s a waste of good shot.

    #218448

    Zaskow
    Member

    So that’s a waste of good shot.

    Any shot is good, when it serves for player’s win.

    Let’s discuss new changes for Necro. Devs have read our suggestions!

    Another update, some bug fixes and some balance changes:

    Latest Changes

    • Burial Ground now costs 100 gold (was 100 gold, 50 mana)
    • Basilica now costs 100 gold, 50 mana (was 200 gold, 50 mana)
    • Dwarf Economic 1 now gives cities with Stone Walls +10 production for Necromancer Players
    • Corpus Furia now does 15 blight damage (was 10 physical)
    • Domain of XXX spells will no longer appear in the spell book for Necromancers
    • Essence Harvest no longer gives casting points for killing Ghouls
    • Necromancer players will now almost always be offered a necromancer hero in the first round.
    • Whispers Of The Dead now costs 15 mana per turn (was 10) and gives a small amount of knowledge for each unit the player kills in combat and each unit that dies in battles that the spell detects
    • Necromancer players can no longer select the Creation specializations (almost none of the skills in the sphere were of any use to them)
    #218457

    Those are the changes I was referring to. Should help smooth things out a bit.

    #218458

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Nothing directly against Dread.
    Otherwise you save 100 Gold and 50 Mana (and the production time for that) for being able to build BC and DB.
    I admit that I like that, especially the 50 Mana for Burial Ground, because Mana is something you really need. You might say, that while this is a general buff, it counts especially against Dread.
    Whispers of the Dead giving Knowledge is a joker spell now, since basically you can hasten research (if I kill another x units this turn I save a turn researching y), so I like that as well (for the fun of it). Corpus Furia doing Blight now … while it can be considered a buff in terms of raw damage, the spell is now useless against machines/dread – but has probably never been a good choice against them in the first place.

    #218464

    ExNihil
    Member

    You might say, that while this is a general buff, it counts especially against Dread.

    How so?

    #218465

    NINJEW
    Member

    Except Cannon does nothing against Banshees (or as much as against Phantasm Warriors). Cannon with two Medals does 32 damage; against Def 10 (two Medals), thats 24-40 damage; 60% Resistance means, it leaves 10-16 damage. So that’s a waste of good shot.

    have you ever actually played against a human using cannons?

    minor correction: 10 defense makes it 26-39 (damage spread is base damage +- 20%. 80% of 32 is 25.6, roundes up to 26, and 120% of 32 is 38.4, rounds up to 39). which makes it 11-16 damage.

    big point: banshees only have 40 hp, and a single stack will have 2 cannons in it + engineer and hero with rapid reload. so, 2 turns to kill a banshee, which doesn’t sound like a bad deal for the necro until you remmeber that due to extreme cannon scoot n’ shoot range, that first round probably caught you before you pohased and the aoe destroyed another unit as well.

    more to the point: what if the cannons don’t shoot your banshees, and just shoot your reanimators dead instead? or your necro leader? or basically anything else? you’re right, that is a waste of a good shot. it’s also a shot that the dreadnought doesn’t really have any reason to make at much any point until banshees are the last unit left: inflict haywire is more or less where their usefulness begins and ends.

    banshees can take a bit of a hit (40hp is pretty damn low, so while the 60% protection is good it’s actually not as good as you’d think against a human opponent making optimal moves), and they can inflict a chance to stun, but they can’t actually deal damage to machines on their own, and they can’t stop cannons from just killing everything else.

    so, sorry man, but if there’s one thing i learned form my time playing necro, it’s that banshees aren’t a magical cureall for every problem. they still die surprisingly fast to physical damage due to their low health (especially agaisnt dreadnought, who can field physical damage numbers high enough for the hits to continue to be meaningful against incorporeal units) and deal pretty shitty damage to spirit immune units.

    #218466

    NINJEW
    Member

    misplayed or not, it is rather telling that in the final big battle in my game, i think i had like 6-8 banshees and they were all taken out in the span of about 2 rounds to cannons, muskets, and black knights.

    #218469

    I’m going to throw this out there without referring to the existing unit stats but would more cold damage be something useful on Necro units?

    Iirc, there’s nothing immune to both spirit and cold, and certainly no machines (with Frost Tank exception).

    More.cold damage on nearly every unit could be the edge needed?

    I’m purely theorycrafting here, as don’t have the time to cross reference this idea against every unit.

    #218473

    ExNihil
    Member

    I think banshees are excellent but not enough in themselves. If Bone Collectors are allowed to collect dead machines and benefit from this somehow (I propose +2 defense and +10HP per machine) this will balance out quite well.

    Anyhow I wouldn’t use cannons to counter banshees if other units are available. Golems would do better – even when haywired they have a good chance to perform x3 without being stunned, and if they are guarding before hand they have a good chance to avoid haywire, and at gold a really excellent chance to do so. Flame-Tanks are the obvious counter here, also any hero unit that has elemental damage or even x3 ranged would do quite well at close range. Attacking from afar Juggs have the range to hit Banshees before these phase in – depending on where they phase in to and who has imitative. At closer range Juggs do good damage to banshees due to 18 fire on mortar at baseline (and -20% fire weakness).

    #218476

    NINJEW
    Member

    the point of cannons isn’t to hard counter banshees (more of a soft counter there, along with muskets). the point of cannons is to absolutely devastating to everything that isn’t incorporeal, and still deal decent damage to incorporeal units if needed.

    the aoe blast on cannons makes using banshees as a defensive unit tough, their low damage vs machines means that can’t even tie a cannon up with melee (cannon just disengages and eats the whole 5 damage), and even haywire isn’t all that great since a cannon is only taking one action a turn (as opposed to golems, who could take 3 or more depending on how much tireless comes into play).

    golems seem like a pretty bad counter to banshees, honestly. their physical damage isn’t stellar even against nonincorporeal units and they’re the machine that’ll be most prone to getting hit by the stun (because they’re the only machine that can take more than one action a turn). i’d say just go for cannons and ignore the banshees for a couple rounds: you can’t really stop the phase + wail from happening, and it’s not like the banshees are gonna do much after that. your cannons, on the other hand, can do a whole lot if they aren’t wasting time trying to kill units that can’t deal damage anyway.

    #218477

    NINJEW
    Member

    i play dread in probably 70% of all my games and i don’t think i’ve ever actually used a flame tank. cannons with golems in front are already so unstopable and i’d rather spend the research getting seeker/more cp for seeker casts.

    in theory flame tanks counter a lot of problems that dread faces in but practice ehhhhh? dread’s already so good at the tactical game that i don’t think it usually really needs the help.

    #218484

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    NINJEW – do you really think ONE game with Necro (that you botched) would teach you the world now. How come, by the way, you calculate with GREEN banshees?
    The point of Banshees is to SOFT counter ALL machines (and of course to kill every living unit). The only HARD counter against Banshees are Support units and Elemental (Fire) shooter/DD spells (some racial supports being utterly useless). The HARD machine counter are the Bone Collectors and specific racial units like for example the Mammoth Rider who also happens to have a ton of HPs.

    #218485

    Zaskow
    Member

    i play dread in probably 70% of all my games and i don’t think i’ve ever actually used a flame tank. cannons with golems in front are already so unstopable and i’d rather spend the research getting seeker/more cp for seeker casts.

    in theory flame tanks counter a lot of problems that dread faces in but practice ehhhhh? dread’s already so good at the tactical game that i don’t think it usually really needs the help.

    If you don’t use flame tanks as Dread, you’re just a bad dread. Simply.

    #218486

    Taykor
    Member

    and a single stack will have 2 cannons in it + engineer and hero with rapid reload

    and Overload. It’s absolutely crazily effective. And this spell almost never stuns machines. One shot of overloaded Cannon could kill a leader most of the time, I suppose.

    #218494

    Wallthing
    Member

    Just want to note that Whispers of the Dead seems to grant 3 RP per tier of units killed.

    #218542

    NINJEW
    Member

    NINJEW – do you really think ONE game with Necro (that you botched) would teach you the world now. How come, by the way, you calculate with GREEN banshees?
    The point of Banshees is to SOFT counter ALL machines (and of course to kill every living unit). The only HARD counter against Banshees are Support units and Elemental (Fire) shooter/DD spells (some racial supports being utterly useless). The HARD machine counter are the Bone Collectors and specific racial units like for example the Mammoth Rider who also happens to have a ton of HPs.

    i don’t? i think i’ve mentioned many, many times that i’m hesitant to call any conclusions from my match except that which was most blindingly obvious/shocking (necro economy sucks, banshees aren’t ridiculously amazing at absolutely everything, hasty plunder->raise city is actually a pretty poor move).

    also my calculation was done using your numbers, and you were calculating with medaled banshees, so idk what your problem is here man

    the point isn’t that banshees are worthless: they’re useful, though the way they tend to get brought up as “banshees fix everything” is pretty oversold i think. the point is “banshees won’t stop cannons from totally tearing apart your entire army.” and if you don’t think that’s true i don’t know what to tell you, because there’s literally nothing a banshee could do to stop cannons from firing, except praying that haywire procs. keep in mind that this is a response to your statement that “well banshees are out by then so cannons are totally worthless.”

    which is hilariously off base with how cannons perform in tactical combat

    If you don’t use flame tanks as Dread, you’re just a bad dread. Simply.

    lol i’m glad my good friend zaskow is here to be a total authority on my playing ability with the class i main, without ever having played me

    flametanks are simply too late for my tastes. if i can last until the cannon murderstacks come out, i consider myself somewhat lucky, so no way in hell am i going to wait for yet another research expensive machine to come out. at that point, i need to be competitive right away, and spending my next 10 turns investing in seeker and CP will do a lot more to make me competitive faster than 10 turns to research flame tanks, which i’ll then have to wait another 5 turns to have any significant number of. under my plan, i can be launching a devastating attack on my opponent turn 40, and repel any attack turn 30. going for flame tanks, it wouldn’t be until turn 60 that i’d be able to launch a proper attack, between time spent building units and travel time (not to mention a total lack of any cp or spells).

    i just don’t plain see how it could be worth it, unless i was fighting a sorcerer. in which case if i’ve survived to turn 40 i’m probably going to win anyway.

    everyone always underestimates the cannons until they’re being blasted by them, which is approximately when everyone starts calling them OP. it is an amusing situation.

    #218547

    ExNihil
    Member

    More.cold damage on nearly every unit could be the edge needed?

    To make a serious difference it needs to be a lot of cold damage, lets review the units dmg at BL:

    Cadaver: 6 phy. / 3 blight
    Lost Soul: 3 spirit / 3 frost
    Reanimator: 4 blight / 4 frost
    Banshee: 8 spirit / 4 frost
    Bone Collector: 15 phy.
    Death Bringer: 13 blight / 3 frost
    Dread Reaper: 8 Spirit / 8 Blight / 8 Frost

    Leveling tends to prefer blight damage wherever applicable. So, where would more frost damage go here? Obvious solution is to reverse the damage output of Banshee, but that will reduce its effectiveness vs. units suffering despair. So the only other viable alternative is the Death Bringer, but anything below 10 frost is simply not going to cut it, which would be 10 frost / 6 blight, which by and by is sort of a serious buff to this unit outside of this matchup, so I dunno how feasible it is.

    The only other option I can think of is to change Power Ritual, to give +2 frost damage instead of the +2 blight damage. This is a straight buff in all matchups except against frostlings, so we need to think how viable an option that is.

    I think the only way to open up the blight damage that is lost is to include Inflict Weaken on at least one common Necro unit, but that, again, affects all matchups.

    Frankly aside from the ideas I already wrote I am really coming up with a blank. Perhaps the solution is to consider a nerf of some element to allow a buff of another, but I am really not experienced enough with Necro to know what can be safely nerfed here.

    One important note: The most serious loss of abilities for the Necro is the complete shut-down of the inflict despair / exploit despair / ghoul curse synergy between the different units, for all units except the bone collector (and the cadaver, but its insignificant here) this is the basis for damage increases, and DN is probably the class that can have the highest morale when fighting Necro – a leader/hero that has access to spirit immunity through Iron Heart (let along in game magical items) and serious army level morale buff in the form of Imperial Authority. The problem, as far as I can see it, is that there is really no way to compensate for this loss in any way. So perhaps you have some ideas here.

    #218550

    NINJEW
    Member

    i like the inflict deteriorate idea, though i’d question if deathbringers come out early enough to matter, while it’d probably be too strong on reanimators.

    maybe on banshees? it’d give them a use past phasewailbombing, though i don’t like the idea of having so many tools centered in on one unit.

    maybe one of necro’s spells could gain a deteriorate chance? perhaps death ray? that’d give necro a cheap spell worth casting against machines, though i dunno if just deteriorate chance would be enough (rust strike, afterall, deals fairly good damage as well, which death ray still would not)

    #218558

    Taykor
    Member

    Death Bringer: 13 blight / 3 frost

    Death Bringer, but anything below 10 frost is simply not going to cut it, which would be 10 frost / 6 blight

    I’m pretty sure that the main damage channel for them is physical with them being swordswomen.

    #218559

    @ Ex, cold damage on Banshees probably.

    Like 10 cold and current blight.

    This will make them pretty damned good against non machines too, but Imho they already are, so that’d be icing on the cake.

    Either that or they get inflict freeze.

    The basic idea is to add something that targets machines low resistance.

    We know even modern machines can suffer in extreme cold, and thus I thought that as the Necro already has cold damage, then amplifying it would potentially be an “easy” solution.

    It would ofcourse have an effect against non machines, against which Necros are already quite good, so the question is whether such a buff would be too much on the Banshee.

    I don’t think it would as Banshees would still be hard countered by Support units and the extra damage would be overkill, so wasted, against most enemies…

    Alternately, put it on Lost Souls. They are pretty fragile anyway, so wouldn’t be enough on their own to help much, but combined with the rest, could work.

    #218560

    Super crazy idea, feel free to shoot it down, inflict rot (like the spell) on Cadavers.

    They are rotting anyway.

    They are fairly crap troops, but in numbers, they could proc rot effect on machines.

    Necro player would still need to plan and play well to use it effectively, and it’d be a nightmare having true hordes of Cadavers, and massing any single unit opens you up to counters.

    Also, inflict rot working only against Machines means other matchups are unaffected.

    I’ve just realised that this sounds a bit like inflict deteriorate lol.

    I am wary of overconcentrating things on Banshees.

    #218561

    ExNihil
    Member

    Perhaps with a price increase to 100CP? I need to do a damage calculation, but I think with this much frost damage they’d take almost all racial t3s one on one, including first born.

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