Necromancer Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Necromancer Balance Discussion

This topic contains 463 replies, has 29 voices, and was last updated by  Ericridge 6 years, 11 months ago.

Viewing 14 posts - 451 through 464 (of 464 total)
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  • #221052

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    @ ExNihil

    I didn’t say they were “common” – I said there were a lot of different kinds (5).

    Why would you assume LS have 9 hexes above water? Water functions like any other terrain with a cost of 4, which equals 7 hexes for 28MP. They are not more advantagous here than other scouting units.

    Hmm. You start a discussion about the necessity for Necro to have a better scout and you don’t know that Floaters (both LS and Banshee are) use 3 MPs to traverse water?
    You should know your facts here, and fact is, a Lost Soul moves NINE hexes over water, just 1 less than a 30 MP flyer, with Banshees moving the same 10 with their 32 MPs.

    And what you say about MP and scouting – there are a lot more aspects to this than blindly sending out single scouts. One aspect to keep in mind is the ability to detect and destroy ENEMY scouts. Without proper scouting it’s difficult of being surprised, and as long as you are trying to get things going you have to concentrate on what is possible and what are your goals, and the quality of your material is initially better suited to KILL scouts – which is enough, up to a point.
    Your flying scout would come too late for early grabs and would delay Banshees which is a no-go.

    #221055

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    uhhhhhh

    do you understand how scouts work

    you send scouts out in single stacks and avoid fighting with them period

    this is true for every single scout. the only time you bunch scouts up is if you’re going for a scoutsnipe, worried about being scoutsniped, or pulling some hilarious play on a very lightly defended city (3 crows can kill one irregular!)

    You are kidding me, are you? You don’t send units on missions they are not made for, PERIOD.
    Instead you try and use your units to the best of effect, and on turn 25 or later it’s folly to produce lone Lost Souls and send them out. Complete waste of resources. You don’t send out single Exalteds either – makes no sense whatsoever.
    In other words, you don’t play Lost Souls like you play Grimbeaks, you don’t play Necro like Rogue. With different units you have different priorities.

    #221056

    NINJEW
    Member

    eh.

    killing scouts is nice but it’s not really the main purpose. the point is that necro suffers from a lack of information, so i’d think that it’d be more preferable to simply focus on information gathering over being able to deny your enemy of information. if you really need a scout killer, there’s always banshees, or you could bunch lost souls up. but spreading them out rather than spending more turns to get a single scout stack (and therefore more turns spent not summoning banshees for your army :v) just sounds like an all around better move to me.

    #221057

    NINJEW
    Member

    You are kidding me, are you? You don’t send units on missions they are not made for, PERIOD.

    how are lost souls not made for simple scouting? they float, they have mp, they have all the scout qualities that scout drones have. they just won’t win any scout fights, which is fine. you don’t need to win scout fights for your scout to be useful (otherwise warlord scouts would be a bit of an issue), you just need to be able to gather the information you need.

    You don’t send out single Exalteds either – makes no sense whatsoever.

    yeah because exalted are a bit more expensive than a lost soul?

    #221058

    NINJEW
    Member

    if lost souls really do need to be bunched up to be effective scouts that sounds like good evidence in favor of exnihil’s “necro needs a dedicated scouting unit like carrion birds” idea…

    #221072

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    No, that’s not true.

    Think real life. You want to know what enemy is doing (at turn 25 we don’t talk about things that are up for grabs anymore, not really), but you also DON’T want enemy knowing what you do. Which is true both ways.

    So what you have to keep in mind is enemy’s ability to DETECT and KILL your scouts, as well as your ability to detect and kill enemy’s. Ideally you can BOTH kill opponent’s scouts and make it very difficult for him to kill yours. Which means, if enemy has ways to detect and kill your single scout units they have no worth anymore.

    Lost Souls are good in water scouting, initially. They also can pass mountains better than most units if you don’t happen to play Dwarves. So that’s that. Once you are 2 dozen or more turns into the game, it’s getting a bit more serious.
    Don’t you think it’s somehat silly to demand a “dedicated mid-game scout unit” like the Carrion Bird that costs 90 Gold/Mana to produce/summon, just because you want to be able to send SINGLE units instead of teams?

    The ideal scout is a cheap fast flyer with mountain and wet concealment (at least). It has no use other than move fast and unseen, hide in rough and costly terrain and deliver intelligence. If you don’t have the ideal scout, you have to look what your unit roster is giving you INSTEAD and make the best of it. One disadvantage of the undead is their inability to regenerate, making “lone” units something of a lost cause anyway without them stumbling upon a Well of Souls, but the recharge takes time. Which means, you are at a disadvantage anyway. There are units that may win a scout war, but since the undead can’t regenerate, the situation is only slightly better than with Cadavers and that would be true for a Carrion as well.

    Which means, before you start scouting out the enemy in ernest, you are better off securing your burgeoning empire against enemy spying. Keep also in mind that your expendable unit is the Cadaver, not the Lost Soul.

    #221077

    ExNihil
    Member

    JJ, with all due respect I am not getting into another argument with you in this thread about your theory-crafting about MP. LS has no advantage over any other scouting unit over water, that is a fact, and your claim for 9 hexes movement is simply bad arithmetic (happens to everyone, but really don’t press the point: http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Floating). Let’s agree to disagree, and let the devs decide what is convincing in their opinion.

    #221082

    ExNihil
    Member

    I correct myself- tome of knowledge is different here from wiki, floaters have 3 over water. What does this mean?

    LS is the same as Drone and Wisps, slower than Cherubs and Crows, and faster than WL scouts, pretty much the same as before. With irregular training it will be the fastest scout over water, which is completely fine by me.

    #221088

    NINJEW
    Member

    Think real life. You want to know what enemy is doing (at turn 25 we don’t talk about things that are up for grabs anymore, not really), but you also DON’T want enemy knowing what you do. Which is true both ways.

    i

    what?

    yeah having scout killers is nice but you don’t need to make your scouts also be your scout killers. if that’s a purpose you really need, you could just use single banshees. generally scout hunting is done in response to a scout showing up nearby your forces, not your own scouts going out in seek and destroy mode.

    So what you have to keep in mind is enemy’s ability to DETECT and KILL your scouts, as well as your ability to detect and kill enemy’s. Ideally you can BOTH kill opponent’s scouts and make it very difficult for him to kill yours. Which means, if enemy has ways to detect and kill your single scout units they have no worth anymore.

    this is what’s good about cherubs, gryphons, monster hunters, and to a far lesser extent scout drones, yes. the ability to kill enemy scouts with every single one of your own scout stacks in unnecessary, everyone except theo gets by without it just fine (dread explosive death is neat defensively but you still don’t want to be picking fights when you’re closer to enemy territory) and a waste of resources. gaining info is more valuable than denying info, so you want to focus on that. making your scout stacks into 3stacks means you’re spending 3 times as much mana and cp for the same amount of info gained, which just plain puts you at an info disadvantage, even if you could kill an enemy scout if you ran into them.

    Don’t you think it’s somehat silly to demand a “dedicated mid-game scout unit” like the Carrion Bird that costs 90 Gold/Mana to produce/summon, just because you want to be able to send SINGLE units instead of teams?

    uh, no? it’d be a more efficient use of resources, especially if produced, since that isn’t trying up banshee production. a carrion bird would be able to take other class scouts 1v1 fairly well i believe, as well as be an excellent scout, and be far more efficient than spending like 3 or 4 turns casting for a single stack’s work of info.

    One disadvantage of the undead is their inability to regenerate, making “lone” units something of a lost cause anyway without them stumbling upon a Well of Souls, but the recharge takes time.

    doesn’t stop scout drones from working fine

    Which means, before you start scouting out the enemy in ernest, you are better off securing your burgeoning empire against enemy spying. Keep also in mind that your expendable unit is the Cadaver, not the Lost Soul.

    if you want anti-scouts patrolling your empire there are far easier ways to do that than 3stacks of units. just summon a single banshee to patrol. maybe a second banshee on a different patrol. they don’t each need 2 lost souls as escorts (MAYBE 1 lost soul each if you want to be really careful about enemy spellcasting).

    a banshee alone will eat any scout for breakfast so more than that sounds unnecessary to me. unnecessary summoning costs are a pretty big deal if your cp is a limited resource.

    #221095

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    @ NINJEW

    gaining info is more valuable than denying info, so you want to focus on that.

    Well, no, it’s not. Info about the enemy starts to be of use only if you can react to it, that is, if you can exploit the info. It IS of use to know where the enemy is located, roughly. Which means you need some EARLY scouting (which additional unit being too late for). But as long as you have no “sufficient” offense force (which means, as long as you don’t have the production/summon capacity and economic foundation to create that), the only thing important to make sure is that enemy isn’t sneaking in ony you, spying on you, rushing on you.
    This changes, as soon as you are up and running, and it is THEN you need forward eyes. There are some ways to do it, but going piecemeal is probably not the best idea.

    So there is moving around and grabbing stuff, while locating the enemy which is one thing. There is denying the enemy intelligence; and there is collecting the necessary intelligence when you need it. And when you need it, you don’t want your Lost Soul killed by patroling Wyvern or Gryphons or other stuff before they can deliver something more like “there be dragons”.

    Of course that depends on what units you DO have. Gryphons, for example, have so great speed and vision that it would be a waste NOT to at least TRY and collect info.

    Lastly, if you really DO want such a unit – why don’t you just pick Air Adept? Zephyr Bird, 140 Res, 60 Mana. Wing Beat makes it decent against everything except Spy Drones, but that amounts to draws. Problem solved.

    #221098

    ExNihil
    Member

    Already covered Zephyr Bird earlier.

    #221125

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Yes, you said, it’s the only option for a more scout intensive game – but it’s even more expensive than a Lost Soul, and it’s summoned as well which means going for them also means not going for something else and 12 Mana upkeep isn’t cheap. You can basically send 2 Banshees for 3 Zephyrs – or 3 Lost Souls and 1 Banshee for 4 Zephyrs.

    This is just a thought and not directed at you – but you can simply Control a Reanimator and attack a Well of Souls. Problem solved. 🙂

    #221150

    NINJEW
    Member

    the only thing important to make sure is that enemy isn’t sneaking in ony you, spying on you, rushing on you.

    this is important at all stages of the game. you need to know where the enemy army is at all times, where his cities are, whether or not he is coming at you from a given direction, and how well defended his cities are. this never ceases to be absolutely critical information.

    #227367

    Ericridge
    Member

    Hi, this happened just now.. I remembered that there was some people doubting that undead stacks is launching suicidal attacks. So I decided to take a screenshot and post it here.

    Which means if you leave those nodes be, you can get lucky and have whispers of the dead reveal an sneaking army.

    That stack attacked my army group which was gathering together to attack Grulka the archdruid who dow’d on me.

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