Necromancer Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Necromancer Balance Discussion

This topic contains 463 replies, has 29 voices, and was last updated by  Ericridge 6 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #217426

    ExNihil
    Member

    MP is OFC, like SP, affected by settings. I don’t know about the skill of different players. I am a rather good player myself and the players I play with are also good (you know them from tourny’s I’d guess). Our way of playing is to exploit IMBA to our advantage, in fact that is the only way to go competatively. If you play for immersions sake against players who are willing to do anything to win (within the accepted rules, and there are rules), you will simply lose. I’m not suggesting this is a very healthy way to play games, or a very fun one for most people, but it does make imbalances surface very effectively.

    As for Autocombat – it is a part of the game, primarily in MP but also in SP and PBEM (I for instance use it quite often in PBEM.) Since we received multiple indications that the AI will not be dramatically improved this is a concern that needs to be addressed by other means, whenever possible. OFC this shouldn’t hurt SP – and so we can speak of SP/MP balance as well, but that is a part of balance. If you are going to shut out MP, and MP players shut out SP players, nothing constructive can come out of discussions in this sub-forum, and basically the only thing that we will have here is endless pissing contests. I don’t know about you, but I have better things to do with my time, and I find these arguments are really not very healthy for myself. Since I find you to be an intelligent person who can construct arguments logically and often convincingly, it would be a shame if we couldn’t discuss proposals together. Yet it is a price I am willing to pay so to speak, if what you are intending is for other people to shut-up.

    @all,

    Please lets leave the DN/Theo matchup outside of this thread – this is a finished conversation and argument, lets move forward and not rehash these stupid arguments endlessly.

    #217431

    ExNihil
    Member

    Ok, regarding DN/Necro-

    A simple first step would be to make damnation work on Machine units. OFC this wouldn’t resolve the difficulty in fights occurring outside an enemy city’s domain battles, but it will certainly help in siege warfare. Since we are talking about -60% blight resistance, this wouldn’t be incredibly dramatic either, and considering that DN has a very powerful wall-defense respective of other classes, this would make the matchup less hopeless, but not very hopeful at that.

    #217437

    Bob5
    Member

    Numerous morale debuffs work on undead too – immolation, spirit breaking (?).

    That’s why I said much, not all. All blight debuffs except weakening, crippling base happiness, terrain, despair, all fairly common morale penalties they’re immune to. Immolation is fairly common, although you can’t assume everyone has it, a lot of race/class combinations don’t have wide access to it. It certainly won’t affect your entire army, apart from having a bit more trouble at Sphinx temples. Spirit Breaking is rare, Sorc heroes, Watchers, Eldritch Horrors, Shrines, and Spirit Elementals get it, and Watchers and Horrors only at medal. You can encounter it, but it’s definitely not easily spammable and against Shrines you have other things to worry about, they tend to destroy undead, or at least heavily cripple, on their prayer bolts when lucky doesn’t roll in the target favour, doesn’t matter much if spirit breaking triggers on dead targets.

    My point is that Halfling Necro can fairly reliably keep high morale among most of the troops. Sure, occasionally a couple will get their morale lowered, but not enough to really affect that overall picture.

    You should recheck stats of Beathbringers. All of them gain Total Awareness, elven variant gains nothing additionally.

    Okay, I misremembered that one. Makes Elf Necro all the more bad though, literally only having shock damage advantage against Dread as an attempt to a saving grace.

    #217438

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    While I agree in general that we should come to an understanding – what you do in MP isn’t exploiting IMBA – you exploit the AI. You cannot exploit an IMBA, because you don’t know whether something is IMBA. What you know is, when you “exploit” it, is, it does work, but you don’t know whether it worked because it’s IMBA or whether opponent unwillingly did something wrong.

    Instead you play for the strategy that offers the most gain.

    1) AC is a matter of experience more than anything else. That’s why playing always certain combos pays – you know the ins and outs (Note: if you change defender strength, you can throw away most of that experience; it’s basically a new game).

    2) your plan to win. That depends on a lot of things – but it also depends on what opponent is actually playing, so establishing contact – locating opponent – is important. Since that takes time, it makes sense to have an early game GENERAL strategy (for which you don’t need info), that works always.

    Naturally, not everything can be equally good here. The current settling meta is good only, because the selected RMG settings give the necessary time. There is no need to change the game balance here – you could instead condense the game or add AI players – and the meta would necessarily change. (And a Class that needs to pay more to get Outposts going, shouldn’t play that meta game in the first place.)
    ———————————————————————————

    If we ask “How about Necro balance” then my answer is: Necro is overpowered. Why is that? The reason is MOST races and classes have problems playing against Necro. If you ask about the viability of Necro game versus machines, then you must ask also about the viability of other Classes game against Necro. and other Classes game against Dread.
    They gave Necro a very solid machine killer unit to make up for it. The Bone Collector got something specific against machines. Theo doesn’t. Rogue has Sabotage. Sorcerer has Shock – so what about AD and machines? Rust strike? Warlord?

    Look at it from Necro pov.
    In SP, yoo don’t have to make massive haste.
    If it goes MP, you have the means to Scout and identify your threats (and with the current meta you must play your own rushing game anyway). If you find a Dread, well, what are you waiting for?
    If you can’t get to him, you know that you will have to build that much more Bone Collectors later on. Banshees you’ll have a ton anyway.

    Now, do we really want to go ahead and try to balance the game step by step for every single situation in game?
    If not, can we really say at the moment that Necro is too weak against Dread? We must not mistake “underpowered” with “difficult to play”.

    [Suggestion:]
    I think, the following might be helpful. Let the RMG make a couple of typical MP maps, 3 players, 1 UG, the other 2 surface, then edit the map by taking out entrances/exits, so that players cannot switch layers. Then set up play, giving the human the UG (doing nothing) and set up the 2 AI opponents for playing a surface game. Couple of games between Necro and Dread (and other Combos), switching sides and all, should make things a bit clearer. Let them do 100 games or so, and if Dread wins 90, you know there is something wrong.

    #217444

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well JJ, since I have played roughly 1000 hours of MP and know people who have played at least as much as myself (and often quite a bit more), people do know what IMBA are there. Exploiting the AI is solely the domain of SP – the maximum you get to do in MP is understand under what circumstances you are going to lose units in auto (irrespective of the game’s assessment of the likelihood of victory, it is often wrong.) If you want an IMBA as an example, the prime one would be current settler spam meta, which would never emerge as an issue in SP I’d imagine. You have this though on every layer of the game, with some imbalances being intentional “design decisions”, and others being the result of interactions between different elements of this immensely complex game.

    It is actually quite simple – an SP player has one brain and is playing against an opponent of always equal skill (it never becomes smarter with time). What you learn is what is effective against the AI. When you play against human beings, who learn from experience, all sorts of stuff creep up and develop – many brains, lots of time, and quite a bit of misplaced ambition. Since you are now theory-crafting about what MP is or isn’t, and have neither actually grounded anything in actual experience nor can you do so, I suggest you drop this line of argument – it leads nowhere except a pissing contest.

    Now to what you wrote on Necro:

    If we ask “How about Necro balance” then my answer is: Necro is overpowered. Why is that? The reason is MOST races and classes have problems playing against Necro. If you ask about the viability of Necro game versus machines, then you must ask also about the viability of other Classes game against Necro. and other Classes game against Dread.
    They gave Necro a very solid machine killer unit to make up for it. The Bone Collector got something specific against machines. Theo doesn’t. Rogue has Sabotage. Sorcerer has Shock – so what about AD and machines? Rust strike? Warlord?

    Look at it from Necro pov.
    In SP, yoo don’t have to make massive haste.
    If it goes MP, you have the means to Scout and identify your threats (and with the current meta you must play your own rushing game anyway). If you find a Dread, well, what are you waiting for?
    If you can’t get to him, you know that you will have to build that much more Bone Collectors later on. Banshees you’ll have a ton anyway.

    Now, do we really want to go ahead and try to balance the game step by step for every single situation in game?
    If not, can we really say at the moment that Necro is too weak against Dread? We must not mistake “underpowered” with “difficult to play”.

    [Suggestion:]
    I think, the following might be helpful. Let the RMG make a couple of typical MP maps, 3 players, 1 UG, the other 2 surface, then edit the map by taking out entrances/exits, so that players cannot switch layers. Then set up play, giving the human the UG (doing nothing) and set up the 2 AI opponents for playing a surface game. Couple of games between Necro and Dread (and other Combos), switching sides and all, should make things a bit clearer. Let them do 100 games or so, and if Dread wins 90, you know there is something wrong.

    Well, let me start by saying that for balance discussion the tourny has life a bit difficult – people here assume that 1v1 is the definitive kind of MP game, but in actuality it really isn’t, FFA and Team games are much more common – and interesting. As for rushing, this is only a viable strategy in 1v1 and it wholly depends on the map type. In the current tourny, for example, you have average map + UG, which is in effect 2xaverage map in size, on top of which you have random map type, this makes rushing very difficult in most situations. Rushing in FFA games is almost always a losing strategy – you shift your entire early game towards killing one person, giving the others enough time to eco and kick you butt. In fact I used to enjoy destroying players who were considered good in 1v1 games when they’d show up in my FFAs precisely because of this.

    Now there are two possibilities – one is to argue around multiple factors, trying to situate the matchup in a variety of likely and less likely scenarios, I find this is tiring and often I am the only one who is actually doing the hard work (as can be gleaned from multiple threads). Or we can discuss this matchup simply by assuming that the players did, somehow, found themselves in a mid to late-game battle involving large numbers of their class units – and here, it seems, Necro has a serious problem to deal with DN.

    If you ask about the viability of Necro game versus machines, then you must ask also about the viability of other Classes game against Necro

    I have actually asked it in this very thread not long ago, you are welcome to answer, but thus far people don’t think there is an issue here. If you want to tell me Necro more or less hard counters another class please do, but if that is not the case I see no issue that requires discussion.

    They gave Necro a very solid machine killer unit to make up for it. The Bone Collector got something specific against machines. Theo doesn’t. Rogue has Sabotage. Sorcerer has Shock – so what about AD and machines? Rust strike? Warlord?

    I would really prefer not to discuss DN in this thread, but just to answer you – AD has Rust Strike and in late game it has Horned Gods, which when in numbers are the ultimate anti machine unit since Vanilla (outclassing cannons in range, and is thus the only unit except Naga Matriarchs that can stand outside a city wall and kill the DN defenders without being hurt). WL can compete with DN in terms of production, and it has very powerful melee based abilities – Berserker with demolisher, Warbreed with regrowth and Manticore Riders, not to count Martial Arts training that gives t1 melee based units, let along higher tier ones, the ability to withstand and even vanquish Golems in melee. There are also other elements, but this isn’t the subject of this thread so lets drop this.

    [Suggestion:]
    I think, the following might be helpful. Let the RMG make a couple of typical MP maps, 3 players, 1 UG, the other 2 surface, then edit the map by taking out entrances/exits, so that players cannot switch layers. Then set up play, giving the human the UG (doing nothing) and set up the 2 AI opponents for playing a surface game. Couple of games between Necro and Dread (and other Combos), switching sides and all, should make things a bit clearer. Let them do 100 games or so, and if Dread wins 90, you know there is something wrong.

    GL, let me know when you finish running these games, until then lets stick to our conventional means – experience and thought.

    #217447

    Dr_K
    Member

    nearly every single necro spell loses out substantially against machines (this is different from theo, when it was only 3 or so)

    Are you bloody delirious? Necro still can use most of its spells. Against machine only armies, they are less effective, but not completely ineffective as with Theo.

    Death Ray–Loses 3/5 of damage vs machines
    Stiffen Limbs–Ineffective
    Desecration–Less useful since it boosts resistance, but still useful versus dreadnought.
    Corpus Furia–Still useful
    Dark Gift–Lose inflict curse, but still get +2 physical across the board.
    Syphon Life–Ineffective
    Raise Dead–Less effective (I forget if it brings back undead kills or not)
    Mark of Death–Still effective (unless it doesn’t work on machines, haven’t tried it)
    Scourge of the Undead–Still useful. Very much so since 1/2 the time you will get an incorporeal unit, and another 1/6 of the time you should get a bone collector. (unless probabilities are fudged in the code)
    Undying Army–Still Useful

    Necro lost precisely 2 combat spells, with some others reduced in effectiveness. Once again versus machines not the living units a dread can use. But the two most powerful combat spells are just as useful against an all machine dreadnought army as they are against living armies. Not even close to being worse off with respect to combat spells vs machines than the Theocrat.

    #217448

    @all,

    Please lets leave the DN/Theo matchup outside of this thread – this is a finished conversation and argument, lets move forward and not rehash these stupid arguments endlessly.

    Oh the irony. This coming from the man who started a 10 page monster to rehash a 30 page monster.

    In any case, as with any x versus x balance discussion ofcourse some points are going to come across.

    In this case, the core problem is that the Necro just doesn’t play by the same rules. I can assure you that in beta it was very overpowered, but *perhaps * the pendulum swung the other way too much.

    I could see them getting a higher production level at Base (say 20%, and also a temporary boost every time bodies get sent in, say + 10% for a turn ) and I could also see whispers of the fallen raising troops from any battles fought in the area.

    Those 2 would be enough to even out the early game for the Necro, which would boost it against everyone, so against Dreads as well.

    #217458

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    This is starting to piss me off again, for a ton of reasons.

    @ ExNhil
    You don’t argue coherently. You want to assess Dread vs. Necro, and when I tell you that you have to rush, you come with, that’s viable only in 1 on 1. Well, Dread vs. Necro is STRAIGHT 1 on 1 – if 4 are playing FFA, then Dread vs. Necro isn’t the issue.

    Also I don’t like this, “let’s not talk about this or that”. I will talk about whatever I think is necessary. Specifically, something isn’t a pissing contest, just because the viability of certain statistics is doubted.

    A successful strategy may be imba – but it may also jut not be countered. Even IF you play 4player FFA on M maps with UG, you would STILL have to rush with Necro with the current Meta for a ton of reasons. Trying to compete that way is pointless and not catering to the strengths.

    Only when there is a significant number of games where Necro tried that strategy and failed, you can start to think about a Necro imbalance. Why? Because with the current Meta Necro is a bad choice, when you want to compete with a settling effort, since you have additional costs: building stuff to get population growth, changing Great Farms (for which you need Mana and CP that you could use otherwise).
    So you CAN found the odd settlement, but it makes no sense to take part in a settling rally, since you cannot hope to win that.
    Now, that’s not underpowered. Settling is just not Necro’s strength. Instead, it’s laying waste to settlements of others and animate the ruins.

    #217462

    ExNihil
    Member

    I’m using a phone so I can’t really reply. To make life simpler, JJ please define what you consider to be ”rushing” and give me a general scope of how it works.

    #217481

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Willd do when I have more time (Saturday Night now).

    #217482

    ExNihil
    Member

    Oh the irony. This coming from the man who started a 10 page monster to rehash a 30 page monster.

    Is that what I did? I started a thread (hoping it will be short and to the point) to avoid the cesspool you helped creating, because I didn’t want to sit in the cesspool myself and hoped to have a constructive discussion rather than an argument full of “rebuttels” (to use a term you favor.) If you would bother to actually read that thread you will see I didn’t rehash your “discussion” (which I have read in the mean time), giving careful consideration to many many points while keeping my eyes on the game-data, along the way refuting multiple assertions you have made btw, finally ending that thread with two solid pages of suggestions – quite a few of which don’t appear in that monstrosity. You should also note that I have actually did bother to check the main suggestions that you guys have been arguing about, and found most of them to be IMBA or sub-par, but carefully thinking about stuff *together* was never the point of that thread, and I think you would agree with that – after the first ten pages of frustrated geeks cussing each other that thread deserved to be supplanted.

    There is no Irony, simply because I never wanted a pissing contest but a constructive discussion of what people think should or could be done – as I repeatedly asserted and have told you, @BBB, personally and directly in steam *before* you decided its time to get the party going in my thread, friend. I have made continual efforts not to get personal with you, even apologizing for my part in our past collision, but your snide remarks here and there, and intentional and direct insults on several occasions (if you want links just say so), as well as your tendency to come into my threads and take the proverbial sledge hammer to the discussion – usually by bashing that hammer on the head of some person in the discussion – are making this very difficult.

    I hope we can start a new page and communicate with mutual respect, it would be a shame if we must devolve into our previous pattern, the question is what you wish? To bash heads? Pull my leg? Take a piss? Argue for argument’s sake? I prefer to have a respectful and peaceful discussion and to benefit from the perspectives of other people, and I hope you do as well.

    ——

    In any case, as with any x versus x balance discussion ofcourse some points are going to come across.

    OFC, but when Zaskow and JJ are entering seek and destroy mode about Theo/DN, I would say this isn’t a constructive discussion but a return to a forum blood feud. My point is, lets stick to the point of this thread, and if possible, lets leave our hatchets outside this thread (bury them or not, up to you).

    In this case, the core problem is that the Necro just doesn’t play by the same rules. I can assure you that in beta it was very overpowered, but *perhaps * the pendulum swung the other way too much.

    Well, your first post in this thread was:

    Play a few Necro versus Dread games.

    Your won’t moan about Theocrats after that.

    I would assume from that you do consider this matchup to be problematic.

    I could see them getting a higher production level at Base (say 20%, and also a temporary boost every time bodies get sent in, say + 10% for a turn ) and I could also see whispers of the fallen raising troops from any battles fought in the area.

    Can you elaborate on what you think the actual benefits of this will be? How does this translate in game terms?

    Those 2 would be enough to even out the early game for the Necro, which would boost it against everyone, so against Dreads as well.

    But that might be a problem, if Necro is indeed as powerful as some people here assert that will be too much, don’t you think so?

    #217516

    Ericridge
    Member

    Necromancer can heavily benefit in long FFA games too. All thanks to age of death. Unless everyone is a dreadnought XD

    Don’t believe it? Well, A sorcerer and warlord fought a siege battle, the warlord won but with 3/4 of her troops dead. And then all the dead sorcerer/warlord soldiers became mine. I attacked the warlords’ remnants in the now damaged city with their walls still breached and finished them off easily. And I took those stacks towards the warlord’s throne city and defeated her easily. upkeep was a pain due to many tier 3s and 4s units I gained from warlord.

    And I started to seek out foes in attempt to gain as much territory as possible and to get rid of the excess units cuz i was losing money by alot.

    #217519

    NINJEW
    Member

    In MP the current meta is settling the devil out of the map – but with Necro not being competitive in that regard (due to them having extra investment cost to get these things going), while being the master of making the most out of OTHER PEOPLE’S town

    uh, not in my fucking meta. maybe that’s how folks play around here, but the group i’m in does not have a city spam meta, and necro is still very much UP (though can score the occasional win if not rushed)

    Theo vs. Dread obviously.

    there is no fucking way that theo vs dread is even close dude, sorry. like every single on of the necro’s units deals half damage. all of its spells are only half effective. theo loses a handful of tools, which may or may not be significant enough to be imblanaced (i don’t think it is), but it’s no where close to the total lack of options that a necro has.

    a) The MP settings

    And with that I don’t mean AC. MP – you sit before a computer playing hours on the web – will have comparatively EASY settings, because people want to DO things when it’s their turn. So Normal Defenders, everything on Normal.

    yeah why would you want anything to be balanced for normal settings? default settings suck lets balance the game according to your specific playstyle instead

    In a game where so many settings are possible, *I*, as a player would try to balance things by suggesting RMG settings. I would, for example suggest Strong or even VERY Strong Defenders and a small map with UG instead of a M without, for example, If I intended to play Necro, and if there was discord, you could simply allow everyone 3 or so changes within certain ranges.

    i think there might be a problem if necro is only a balanced matchup under some specific, and not exactly popular, map settings.

    one other suggestion i’ve seen regarding the necro hero solution: the necromancer could simply start with a “heal undead” item as well, so the necro still has to pick and choose a hero, but you’re no longer locked out of the additional healing just because a necro didn’t come up

    #217520

    The irony is I told you then that there was no point to a new thread, as it would add nothing useful, and here you are asking that people don’t rehash arguments, when rehashing arguments is exactly what happened in that thread, as I said it would.

    Maybe in your head you thought you were being constructive but I mentioned on the very first page that it was pointless, and 10 pages later my opinion has not changed.

    I also think you are misunderstanding what respect is, or what the consequences are of it. If you write something I consider stupid or ill advised, ofcourse I’ll point that out, and if you think that is somehow personal or disrespectful well that’s your problem. Playing the victim doesn’t make you the victim.

    Now back on.topic, whisper of the fallen acts, or is supposed to, as an early warning system, like radar, of fights happening within a certain radius.

    Now if some of the troops that died in these fights were raised under Necro control, that would fit in with the Necro being a Lord of Death.

    Think basically a very localised age of death.

    Early free troops allows the Necro a bit more of an early game buffer, which means losing fights in auto is less damaging.

    It fits the Necro theme and evens out the early game a bit, but is different and comes with the caveat that these free troops aren’t all that “free” because they come from people fighting.

    It avoids balance issues to a degree that come from state or ability changes, and it naturally becomes less useful the longer the game goes on.

    It gives the Necromancer some early game support, but highly specific and localised.

    Basically, it makes the early game a bit smoother and slightly more predictable, and gives a little bounce back ability for the auto combat vagaries.

    An alternative would be to have a spell or ability that raises some.of the early game units but which tapers out afterwards, but I think whispers of the fallen can accomplish the same thing and avoids extra work.

    The real gold standard solution is a reworked auto combat system, but ultimately that seems unlike to be implemented to the extent that it would solve this issue, and in any case, as has been pointed out in others threads, changes to auto combat wouldn’t necessarily solve everything anyway.

    #217521

    Alternatively, whispers of the fallen could construct beacons, think tombstones on the strategic map, at which Necro heroes could resurrect troops.

    Or said beacons could be limited vision limited time watchtowers, so in essence making the scouting in early game for Necros a bit more interesting.

    I’m more.in favour of strategic abilities like this, that offer some extra help but have a natural time decay built in, as it avoids balance issues from state or cost changes and have the potential to add more interesting gameplay.

    @ Jj, I.know you don’t much like it but the WL scout is, I think, a good example of the kind of thing I’m talking about.

    On its own, not very good, but for a WL, an excellent enabler, removing an early game bottle neck that was strangling the class.

    I would need to play a bit more Necro to make more concrete suggestions, but I think something similarly limited could work.

    #217534

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Numerous morale debuffs work on undead too – immolation, spirit breaking (?).

    Already brought up by Bob, but that hardly counts as ‘numerous’. To be exact, I believe the list includes:
    — Upkeep-based morale loss
    — Alignment-based morale loss
    — Spirit Breaking
    — Immolation
    — Condemn Killing
    — Dread Omen/Siege
    (perhaps one more that I’m missing)

    Compared that to Empire Happiness and morale fluctuating, terrain morale, other Spirit-based abilities applied Morale debuffs(including the ‘Shaken’ ability fail effect), Blight debuffs… which are generally more common than any of the Undead-influencing debuffs aside from perhaps Immolation.

    Theo vs. Dread obviously.

    Not going to make this the point of the thread, but I would actually agree that Necromancers are overall more disadvantaged here. If nothing else, the -1 Def and innate Fire Weakness for Ghouled versions of units, while having the enemy usually ignore the prevalent Spirit and Blight damage channels is something of note. To be fair, Embalmed does mitigate the defensive penalty by a fair amount, with Fire Protection being the result, and +7 HP actually making up for the -1 Def fairly well against Dread unit’s, due to their single-shot nature. Only units made from cities can be Embalmed, though.

    Loss of Spirit/Blight damage and Life Stealing is significant, though, and even more so than a Theocrat’s loss of Spirit damage(which can at least eventually be mitigated by Armageddon, I suppose, although that’s too late to really consider for general discussion).

    I think necro economics is okish. In my game I showed nothing terrible in necro early game.

    This has been brought up time and again, but the restriction to +15% income bonus, while it may not seem as noticeable at the beginning when the enemy is sitting on the same, really starts to show as the game goes on longer and living cities sit at +30~50% income.
    This, likely more than almost anything else, really hinders them if a game is prolonged, as it means less knowledge, less production speed(less likely to 1-turn produce units), less mana(to a degree, since they at least slightly mitigate this), and most importantly when Ghoul Curse and/or Age of Death get rolling, less GOLD.

    Decent class, with strong combos and synergies. However, it will be crushed by production classes in long games.

    I definitely agree on the combat side of things, as for late game… (see above)

    Lastly:

    You cannot exploit an IMBA, because you don’t know whether something is IMBA.

    Yes, you definitely can know if something is ‘IMBA’. The old Dwarf Econ 1 most definitely was, and was addressed. The current combination of circumstances with the resulting internally synergetic rewards, that has resulted in the city spam meta, certainly is(and will be addressed).

    Hell, Lost Souls(and several aspects of Necro, really) used to be very, very firmly ‘IMBA’. Now, they are just very good units.

    If something works too well, and I definitely mean too well, when compared with other things, then odds are it just might be ‘IMBA’.

    That doesn’t mean people will be deterred from using it as much as they can, while they can, I suppose, but that’s a different matter entirely.

    #217542

    NINJEW
    Member

    Are you bloody delirious? Necro still can use most of its spells. Against machine only armies, they are less effective, but not completely ineffective as with Theo.

    Death Ray–Loses 3/5 of damage vs machines
    Stiffen Limbs–Ineffective
    Desecration–Less useful since it boosts resistance, but still useful versus dreadnought.
    Corpus Furia–Still useful
    Dark Gift–Lose inflict curse, but still get +2 physical across the board.
    Syphon Life–Ineffective
    Raise Dead–Less effective (I forget if it brings back undead kills or not)
    Mark of Death–Still effective (unless it doesn’t work on machines, haven’t tried it)
    Scourge of the Undead–Still useful. Very much so since 1/2 the time you will get an incorporeal unit, and another 1/6 of the time you should get a bone collector. (unless probabilities are fudged in the code)
    Undying Army–Still Useful

    Necro lost precisely 2 combat spells, with some others reduced in effectiveness. Once again versus machines not the living units a dread can use. But the two most powerful combat spells are just as useful against an all machine dreadnought army as they are against living armies. Not even close to being worse off with respect to combat spells vs machines than the Theocrat.

    are you bloody delirious? yyou’ve just lsited off a bunch fo spells and pointed out exactly why the vast majority of them are ineffective and largely a waste of cp that could go towards summoning banshees. the ones that function normally against machines are all late, late game spells.

    #217546

    NINJEW
    Member

    like the early spells that theo lost were what, smite and slayer’s doubt? vs uh, 2/3rds of your nuke (effectively a waste of cp, might as a well be useless), your debuff, your battlefield buff (inflict curse is a big chunk of what makes that worthwile to cast), and ANOTHER nuke.

    like you want to compare? theo combat spells unaffected by machines:
    divine protection
    instant wrath
    mighty meek
    purifying burst
    rebirth
    blessing of health

    necromancer combat spells unaffected by machines:
    desecration
    corpus furia
    mark of death
    scourge of the undead
    undying army

    like really? what cheap options does necro have that work vs machines? a theocrat can still effectively use instant wrath and mighty meek just fine. necromancer gets nothing under 20 cp that’s good.

    i mean, sure, mark of death is 15 cp. great use of cp there buddy: you can’t control which opponent dies, and it only works if you lose the battle. so, uh, very helpful.

    #217547

    NINJEW
    Member

    i mean shit, fucking corpus furia? only your unit’s bodies explode. which side do you think is going to get hit by that? the one with the exploding bodies, or the side that specializes in ranged damage.

    #217551

    NINJEW
    Member

    guys i’m pretty sure that a Dread Reaper can’t win a 1v1 vs a Golem

    #217559

    ExNihil
    Member

    Perhaps do some damage calculations and factor in the respective buffs / spell buffs these could benefit from? This will make the discussion much more precise.

    i mean, sure, mark of death is 15 cp. great use of cp there buddy: you can’t control which opponent dies, and it only works if you lose the battle. so, uh, very helpful.

    Well, I think the real potential of this spell is in assassinating an opponent – say you attack with a small force composed of banshees, intending to assassinate a hero or leader – you fight until your banshees are close to death, than cast Mark of Death on your target, phase in and let it die on a retaliation. You can either keep fighting or surrender (for certain result) and thus effectively assassinate a unit you wouldn’t be able to kill otherwise and cripple your opponent somewhat. This could be very useful in some situations, but it doesn’t help a battle in progress, and in a situation in which you are invaded it is not very likely to be something you could do without screwing yourself in the process.

    #217561

    NINJEW
    Member

    a banshee for a hero is a good trade, but i don’t think a necro really wants to be thinking in terms of “what can i get out of my banshee dying?”

    banshees are pretty valuable units for necro, and with AP draining you can’t guarantee that a lone banshee is going to be able to get to low health, and also be able to phase.

    it’s extremely niche, which usually means “not even worth researching” to begin with. on top of that, it’s a 650 research spell, so…

    #217564

    Fenraellis
    Member

    guys i’m pretty sure that a Dread Reaper can’t win a 1v1 vs a Golem

    Well, on the math alone, if an unranked Reaper was attacking an unranked Golem in Guard Mode, it would deal approximately 6~8 Frost damage, and in return the Golem would deal 4~5 Physical damage to the Reaper. With the Reaper having 6 more HP, the fight would inevitably be in the Reaper’s favor.

    If the Golem was attacking the Reaper in Guard Mode… then it would deal 3~4 Physical damage on the first hit, and 4~5 on the following due to Guard Breaker, while taking 7~11 Frost damage in return.

    Of course, ranks change things. The Reaper gaining 2 Def, 1 Frost damage(as relevant to this discussion), and 40 HP. The Golem gaining 1 Res, 4 Physical damage, 20 HP and Defender.

    Reaper attacking Defender-Guarding Golem: 4~6 Frost, and taking 4~6 Physical in retaliation.
    Golem attacking Guarding Reaper: 3~5 Physical on first hit, 4~6 on next two, and taking 9~11 in retaliation.

    So, by sheer HP differential alone, the Reaper would win, it would just be agonizingly slow.

    —–
    Suffice it to say, that if the enemy is a melee dealing pure Physical damage… there isn’t much a Reaper would lose against. Machines upon which they lose the majority of their damage have the best chance. A Juggernaut ramming it in the face incessantly would likely win, due to decent damage AND high HP and reasonably defenses.

    Living units? Even ones granted Strong Will? Or even Blight/Spirit or Frost/Spirit immunity? Sorry… Physical Protection and Life Drain alone will account for a lot. If they don’t have Spirit Protection, then Energy Drain and Fearsome will turn the tide even more so.

    Of course, that’s theorizing 1v1. How often does that really happen against enemy big-bads?

    That being said, there are myriad sources of Fire/Spirit/Shock damage that can bring down a Reaper, so it’s not actually as bad a situation as it would otherwise seem.

    #217565

    ExNihil
    Member

    OFC, but its a nice side-tool to have. This isn’t something that affects the DN/Necro matchup itself – as this translates to combat performance and what you can actually do in it, but it does give some options – sometimes – that can dramatically effect a battle if it takes place (killing an army leader in advance could be worth several banshees, and you can also try to pull this off by killing multiple units in one battle this way.) I wonder how it works with resurgence, can Theo bypass this sometimes?

    #217567

    NINJEW
    Member

    generally 650 research for a spell that only works if you lose a battle to begin with is a pretty poor deal.

    if mark of death was like, a t2 or t3 spell, i could maybe see it as being useful. but for that research, for that niche of a use, which likely doesn’t even work because of AP draining? probably one of the worst spells in the game, cost and everything considered.

    #217569

    ExNihil
    Member

    Strike that.

    #217570

    NINJEW
    Member

    As for the Golem vs Reaper, I had forgottent o factor in the incoporeal, but the point still stands. Reapers are pretty damn impotent vs the most basic dread machine unit. None of their shit works. Their attack is cut by 2/rds, life drain doesn’t work, fearsome doesn’t work, invoke death doesn’t work, energy drain doesn’t work, even their death explosion also has its damage neutered by 2/3rds.

    #217576

    Wallthing
    Member

    I’m not sure I agree on Mark of Death. Turning a tactical defeat into a strategic victory is really nice. Expensive in research, yeah, I’ll give it that. Hard to forget trading a scout for a leader though.

    #217578

    For the record, necromancer frostlings don’t have to fear stalkers. They are frost immune and blight immune, so the vast majority of the stalkers inflicts and damage are useless. Not even a backstab for fun. Add in frozen flame, and white witches can nearly kill stalkers one on one.

    Otherwise, after the double hero thing, I think the only big concern is dread vs. Necro, which is quite hopeless per even playing on both sides for the necro. Reassemble makes the dread a better necro than the necro, especially when blasting stuff at range.

    I say make stiffen limbs work on the machines as well. A hand reaching from the ground can grab wheels as well as a person, after all.

    At the top, I think that invoke death could have an alternate fire on machines. It could deteriorate the machine (lower damage by 8 on each channel) or make it lose 1/2 mp. After all, time wears machines down as well.

    #217579

    NINJEW
    Member

    I’m not sure I agree on Mark of Death. Turning a tactical defeat into a strategic victory is really nice. Expensive in research, yeah, I’ll give it that. Hard to forget trading a scout for a leader though.

    maybe if you can mind control your opponent into killing the scout you just casted mark of death on

    At the top, I think that invoke death could have an alternate fire on machines. It could deteriorate the machine (lower damage by 8 on each channel) or make it lose 1/2 mp. After all, time wears machines down as well.

    these sound good

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