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This topic contains 90 replies, has 28 voices, and was last updated by  melkathi 9 years ago.

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  • #12752

    Knight9910
    Member

    The developers have already said they’re going to have lots of mod support, yeah.

    #12754

    11balanced
    Member

    I definitely like the new draconian concept more. Previous one was just a mechanical combination of semi-human body with a dragon head, which was not so good. Real dragon head is suitable for real big monstrous draron, not for humanoid race, right? Probably that’s why they were one of the least favorite for me (another one – the Tigrans with the same issue).

    #12755

    vfxrob
    Member

    @11balanced

    LIES

    Tigrans were the bomb and i am not even a big cat person!

    I have hope they are included with a hafling/frostling dlc

    #12756

    Zozma
    Member

    As for this game, I agree that Draconians having tits is kind of silly.

    I’ll definitely grant you that.

    #12757

    Draxynnic
    Member

    @11balanced: We’ve had this argument before, but they SHOULD have dragonlike heads. Their background is that they’re dragons – yes, actual, pure dragons – who were given a stunted upright form and a faster life-cycle through a magical ritual intended to create an army. They have no ancestry from humans, elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, azracs, or any other human-like race – there is no reason they should have human-like features, and should in fact look as much like dragons as possible apart from being smaller, having an upright posture, and (in most cases) lacking wings.

    WOTC at least was justified in having the Dragonborn have mammalian traits because Dragonborn used to be humanoids, or at least in 3.5 they did. They were humanoid servants of Bahamut who underwent a “rebirth” ritual to become half-dragon.

    As for this game, I agree that Draconians having tits is kind of silly. As for their human-like posture and lack of muzzles, I’m guessing this is to make it easier to dress them up.

    In 4E, they were an entirely seperate race that were basically smaller dragons that walked upright, wielded weapons, and (generally) didn’t have wings – entirely reptilian in origin with no mammalian ancestry. And yet they were still randomly given the defining characteristic of mammals.

    #12761

    TheSpeaker
    Member

    I may get shot down with this, so I’ll hide under my desk while I type it, but I like the way the Draconians are now. I seem to very agreeable in general when it comes to this game. Maybe I need to be put in an asylum, I dunno, especially with how much everyone else seems to be disliking the new changes and I just don’t mind.

    As Lennart has said, from a technical standpoint, the Draconians had to change to accommodate the player customization aspects. It’s very difficult to do that with big clunking dragon heads. getting in the way. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, but it’s different. That’s not going to change for this game’s release, so arguing about it until the cows come home seems a bit pointless.

    I liked the old Draconians of of 2 and SM, but I also like these Draconians. They’re both from different eras, and entirely different games, and they’re both just thematically quite different as well. The last Draconians were very much more Dragon looking, and they had more specialized breeds like the slither and crusher and so on, which were chosen if not bred for a specific purpose. That appeals to me because it does go back to the great beasts they were made from.

    I like the look the new Draconians because they fit much more into the scheme of a great empire, which IS what we’re creating here. Looking at the latest video, their cities are these vast, ancient and beautiful things (much like dragons themselves), and in the last games they were very crude, made out of stone and bone. I like those changes. I also like that the new Draconians still wear helmets and things with long horns or dragon masks. It kind of carries back to where they came from, even if their current faces no longer fully show that.

    I don’t know, I like them both, but as this is the future of Draconians in AoW3, it just makes more sense to just accept and be done with it. They’re not going to change, or they’d have to change the whole point of the game, being leader creation and customization in your own image. I think if there was a way to keep the image of the old draconians while still having the core point of the game intact, they would. So I guess I’m lucky that I’m cool with the changes because I’ll be even happier when the game comes out.

    Yes, boobs on Draconians seem odd because it’s a defining mammalian trait (mammalian coming from the word mammaries which are boobs), but there are female gamers out there and much how many guys like their male characters to look like men, I’m sure female gamers like their characters to look like women, and that, boys and girls, is how draconians ended up with boobs. It’s lovely to live in a world where everything is built around ideas and nothing is about making money, but to sell the game and to keep you satisfied with quality DLC and expansions, certain sacrifices need to be made. Truimph Studios are a game developing company, but they are also a business, and if they were fuelled by the dreams, perceptions and ideas of their gamers, they’d go hungry. So juggling what players want but also what would sell the best is a difficult thing. Give them some slack. They see people complaining about so many niggling little things in their game every day and it hasn’t even come out yet. Be happy about something once in a while?

    Besides, maybe there is lore about Draconians evolving to adapt better to their life in the Human dominated Commonwealth Empire. It’s been 2000 years, a lot has happened. Maybe the magic had an unforeseen side effect further down the line? Tempest made them as far as I remember, and he was a bit unstable. It’s likely his magic could have been too. As much as I hate it when people say this, it’s their lore and their game. Yes, they’re making it for you to buy, but if you want this game, those are the changes they’re having to make. They’ve still tried to make Draconians dragon like given the changes. They’re aware of what the draconians used to look like, given they made those games too. They just have to do things this way to suit the situation.

    Speaking of Tigrans, I think it’s a lot less likely we’ll have this ^ problem with them if and when we eventually see them, which I really hope we do. Feline faces are much smaller and less bulky than dragon faces, so they’d fit much better in the grand scheme of things like player customization, and make a lot less people angry when it does happen. In fact I think out of all the races we’ve had so far, barring Shadow Demons who are unlikely to make another appearance, I think Draconians are the only ones who would need this big a change to accommodate the new game.

    #12769

    11balanced
    Member

    Tigrans were the bomb and i am not even a big cat person!

    I have hope they are included with a hafling/frostling dlc

    I’d prefer Azracs, but should we start a holy war here? Finally it’s a matter of taste 🙂 Halfling – Frostling DLC(s) / expansion(s) would be great tough ))

    #12790

    igoraki
    Member

    I think change in look of the draconians is more technical then artistic decision.if you want to have nice detailed dragon head,that require 3d model with
    relatively high polygon count,you cant mimic details with baked textures like you can do with human head.Graphic card can only support certain number of polygons to work in real time,so i guess it wont a problem to have few dragons in the battle,but several dozen or more highly detailed units/models would kill the performance of the game for those without high end video cards.

    To me,those draconians look more like some weird orcs

    #12802

    Ahum, I don’t think beta necessarily means ‘public beta’ by the way…

    #12812

    .. as this is the future of Draconians in AoW3, it just makes more sense to just accept and be done with it.

    Totally agree. Actually this vid made it more easy to accept the new draconians for me. After showing the draconian leader -which looks quite nice and brutal- I can even imagine playing the race. I just need a little more acceptance and some time to realize these are different draconians than the ones in the previous games.

    I may get shot down with this, so I’ll hide under my desk while I type it, but I like the way the Draconians are now.

    Haha! You can come out, at least for now 🙂

    #12813

    NEHZ
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>TheSpeaker wrote:</div>
    I may get shot down with this, so I’ll hide under my desk while I type it, but I like the way the Draconians are now.

    Haha! You can come out, at least for now :)

    Yes, do come out now. *turns off the safety*

    #12837

    vfxrob
    Member

    @11balanced

    Bring it! no just kidding. Id be happy with whatever comes…

    Everything is amazing, but one thing, one tiny thing that has been bothering me! Nothing to do with game balance, and important stuff, and i know theirs a lot of other cool things people to have put forward but hoods/helmets for heroes i have to know! is it a design choice if they not included? or is a development of this that makes it not possible with them attached to the different leader/heroes models…

    And I don’t mind if its the former choice not to have them.
    The only reason i ask if by chance someone does mod, would it be a problem.!?

    Or am i just impatient and you are getting around to it

    Sorry to be a pain!

    #12840

    Knight9910
    Member

    I would like it if your equipped items actually changed your heroes/leaders’ appearance. You know, like… you pick up a piece of armor, put it on, your character’s top changes to that armor. Pick up a new sword and equip it, your character’s weapon changes to it.

    #12841

    Draxynnic
    Member

    @thespeaker: Well, you’re not basing your position on the ridiculous assumption that anything with arms and an upright or semi-upright posture must have a human-like face rather than having a head that actually resembles the creatures they’re descended from (dragons and felines for draconians and tigrans respectively), so I can respect that.

    Truth is, if the background was that the draconians had been humans (or a human-like race, such as elves or orcs) that had been infused with the power of dragons, their current look would actually be quite appropriate. However, that’s not the case, and while I can understand that it’s easier to make customisation options if all the races are kept to the same basic template, I think it makes the draconians lose a lot of their uniqueness. For races that are a little more alien from the basic human shape like draconians and tigrans, I think it’s worth going to a little more effort to find customisation options that work while remaining true to their routes, while the current look feels like they’ve taken the easy way out. As the cliche goes, I’m not angry, but I am disappointed.

    Now, I’m (obviously) not familiar with their system and thus I don’t know what hurdles there are to implementing the classical look, so it may be that taking the fast option was a necessary compromise in order to not hold up the game more than is justified. However, I’d love to see an after-release customisation pack that makes more classically appearing draconians a thing.

    With that said, a few anecdotes:

    Yes, boobs on Draconians seem odd because it’s a defining mammalian trait (mammalian coming from the word mammaries which are boobs), but there are female gamers out there and much how many guys like their male characters to look like men, I’m sure female gamers like their characters to look like women, and that, boys and girls, is how draconians ended up with boobs.

    That’s pretty much exactly the argument that WOTC made regarding 4E dragonborn… and most female gamers I know rolled their eyes at it.

    One of the games that distinctly went away from this is Guild Wars 2. One of the things they did well there is that, since in nature prominent breasts is pretty much a purely hominid trait, the nonhuman races generally only have them if they’re close to humans to begin with. In particular, they have a catlike race called the charr, where instead of simply tacking breasts on, they found an elegant means of making the charr recognisably male and female without taking that shortcut. A transcription of the article in question (the original has been removed from the ArenaNet site) can be found , but the highlight the part specifically addressing this point:

    “There was still some debate, however, so I gave them a choice: either be subtle and downplay the breasts (it wasn’t a point of the race, anyway) or go full-on realistic. Yes, that’s right —none or six!!”

    The posting of this interview presaged a massive outpouring of support and “you go girl!” responses to the character designer, particularly from the female fans.

    The thing is, for many gamers, male and female, part of the appeal of fantasy is not to play some idealised version of yourself, but the opportunity to pretend to be something that is very different, and that’s a large part of the appeal of the more exotic races that is diluted when they’re rubber-banded back into being mostly human underneath the skin, horns, and brow ridges. We already have races that are human or close to human in appearance – players who are concerned with having their characters look similar to human men or women are more likely to stick to the more humanlike, conventionally attractive races in the first place. Once you go much further away than dwarves, you might as well go the whole hog and embrace the non-humanity of a fantasy race.

    #12852

    It’s kinda true that people have forgotten what tits are actually for (spoiler: milk). If it’s not a mammal it doesn’t have boobs, simple as that.

    #12855

    Knight9910
    Member

    It’s kinda true that people have forgotten what tits are actually for (spoiler: milk). If it’s not a mammal it doesn’t have boobs, simple as that.

    Dude, don’t just drop spoilers like that! Thanks a lot, now I can never enjoy tits again!

    #12864

    Red Key
    Member

    - Draconian had to be changed a little to fit with in the customization system, however I think especially the heroes turned out great and are my favorite.

    Lennart’s answer if okay with me. Gameplay is more important to me so if draconians have to look different for the 3D system thats fine. Which is why I really like this:

    - Using Hostile overland spells like Lightning storm will be seen as a hostile action. This build had a flag set wrong for this particular spell

    #12865

    TheSpeaker
    Member

    Dude, don’t just drop spoilers like that! Thanks a lot, now I can never enjoy tits again!

    Picard, you monster!

    Well, you’re not basing your position on the ridiculous assumption that anything with arms and an upright or semi-upright posture must have a human-like face rather than having a head that actually resembles the creatures they’re descended from (dragons and felines for draconians and tigrans respectively), so I can respect that

    Thanks for that, mutual respect all round. I guess the point I’m trying to make is that I don’t have a point at all. I like both kinds of Draconians, so I don’t mind which we get. I was just trying to encourage people to try and see how and why this could have happened, and to maybe be more ok with the idea. It’d be a terrible thing not to enjoy this game because of the artistic direction one race took. I do understand the valid points though. Like breasts on a draconian woman. I can see how it doesn’t make sense, but it won’t stop me playing draconians or enjoying this game any less.

    That’s pretty much exactly the argument that WOTC made regarding 4E dragonborn… and most female gamers I know rolled their eyes at it.

    I’m not totally clued up on DnD lore, but weren’t the Dragonborn human originally? In that it does make a bit more sense, but essentially they’re still not mammalian anymore, so their breasts would be little more than vestigial (I have never talked about boobs so much in my whole life -_-).

    “There was still some debate, however, so I gave them a choice: either be subtle and downplay the breasts (it wasn’t a point of the race, anyway) or go full-on realistic. Yes, that’s right —none or six!!”

    I think I remember hearing about that actually. It was a good job. I remember their being a similar discussion in Skyrim, although it was post release and by the community, wherein they basically argued that 1) Argonian women shouldn’t have breasts at all being a reptilian race, and 2) While Khajiit have breasts and are mammals that’s ok, they should have the more realistic take and have at least 6 breasts. There are mods out there that do that now actually. However, I do suspect the makers of Guild Wars 2 could afford to make that gambit, where I think Triumph, at least for now, may want to play it safe so that the game release goes off without a hitch. That is if their current system actually can support such things, but I doubt it, given Lennart himself did say “This is why we have to do it this way”. You never know though, maybe post release has something in store for that.

    You know, if they had to suddenly stop and say, “No, wait a minute! Our fans don’t want boobs on draconain women and these human-like faces! Let’s spend the next 6 months totally redoing the Draconian race and our game engine for the handful of people who are complaining and extend the release even furtherererer”. If that happens, I will find you, and I will kill you 🙂

    (I am joking, in case anyone takes that last sentence out of context and tries to have me arrested. But on a more serious note (or is it?), if anyone causes the devs to extend the release any further through their complaining of latex foreheads and winged Goblins (I’m looking at you, @stupendousman), we will have strong words. Very strong words. And even stronger punctuation.)

    The thing is, for many gamers, male and female, part of the appeal of fantasy is not to play some idealised version of yourself, but the opportunity to pretend to be something that is very different, and that’s a large part of the appeal of the more exotic races that is diluted when they’re rubber-banded back into being mostly human underneath the skin, horns, and brow ridges. We already have races that are human or close to human in appearance – players who are concerned with having their characters look similar to human men or women are more likely to stick to the more humanlike, conventionally attractive races in the first place. Once you go much further away than dwarves, you might as well go the whole hog and embrace the non-humanity of a fantasy race.

    I do understand that, and I can see where everyone is coming from with this. I’d rather people not be upset by this at all, but disappointed is still better than angry. Essentially I guess these aren’t the Draconians everyone originally started enjoying in the older games but maybe you’ll all get used to these ones as well. I remember when I got Age of Wonders 2 for my 12th birthday, way back in 2002, I would solidly play Tigrans and Draconians purely because I wanted to play some magical and exotic race and to my absolute joy I had two very different ones to choose from. I hated playing humans back then, they were so boring and standard. Now I feel somewhat differently, but I do see the appeal overall. Do you think you personally would still play a Draconian leader despite these changes, or do you think you’ll avoid them altogether?

    #12866

    TheSpeaker
    Member

    Lennart’s answer if okay with me. Gameplay is more important to me so if draconians have to look different for the 3D system thats fine.

    +1

    #12867

    Knight9910
    Member

    I’m not totally clued up on DnD lore, but weren’t the Dragonborn human originally? In that it does make a bit more sense, but essentially they’re still not mammalian anymore, so their breasts would be little more than vestigial (I have never talked about boobs so much in my whole life -_-).

    In 3.5 Dragonborn were humanoid followers of Bahamut who went through a rebirth ritual to become half-dragon.

    In 4E, they’re not – they’re just human-shaped dragon creatures.

    Not sure how or if they’ll be represented in 5E, though.

    #12889

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Knight beat me to it on the D&D side of things (oh, hey, by the way – it looks like your typo has been fixed!). 3.5 dragonborn – which, really, I would expect more players to be intuitively familiar with, given 4Es less-than-stellar reception – were essentially a template applied to an existing race. 4E dragonborn were a separate race, created at roughly the same time as true dragons.

    In answer to your question – I probably will still play draconian leaders, but it will feel somewhat off – and if it’s possible to do while still having draconians as a starting race without mechanical consequences, there would probably be a temptation to have a leader of another race so I don’t have a not-draconian-enough portrait sitting at the corner of my screen through the game. Just how strong that temptation is will depend on just what the customisation options are, and whether I can put together something I can live with. I may just tell myself that they’re not draconians of the Dragonlance-esque origin described in AoW2 lore, but actually descendants of the dragon-worshipping AoW1 orcs that found some way to infuse their bloodline with draconic characteristics. (Which could have involved crossbreeding with the AoW2 draconians in some magically-assisted fashion that is probably best not thought about in too much depth.)

    Certainly, though, at this stage of development, I’d prefer the game not to be unnecessarily delayed on this account – but if an official or unofficial alternate graphics package with something closer to the original draconian appearance comes up, I would probably grab it as soon as I’ve exercised all due caution (in the case of unofficial packs).

    #12895

    Knight9910
    Member

    (oh, hey, by the way – it looks like your typo has been fixed!)

    Hah, I just noticed that. I didn’t even know that could be done.

    #12908

    Draxynnic
    Member

    While I’m not familiar with the architecture of these forums, I know it is possible in some other forums I’ve moderated on, so I gather one of the moderators saw your signature and went “Hey, I can fix that!”

    As an addendum to my above (statute of limitations on edits has passed) – I could probably make it livable if there’s a face option similar to the Elders – namely, no protruding nose and generally looking more like a snout (albeit shorter than the old draconians).

    Speaking of the Elders – did anyone notice that they have a “Dragon Ancestry” ability that the other draconians (flyers and hatchlings, anyway) do not? I wonder what that does and why Elders have it and the others don’t…

    #13006

    melkathi
    Member

    I’d prefer Azracs, but should we start a holy war here?

    Only if you are a Theocrat 🙂

    #13008

    Knight9910
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>11balanced wrote:</div>
    I’d prefer Azracs, but should we start a holy war here?

    Only if you are a Theocrat :)

    Holy War isn’t a very good message board skill. Sure it gives +10 damage against other members, but it permanently reduces your perma-ban resistance.

    #13009

    11balanced
    Member

    Speaking of the Elders – did anyone notice that they have a “Dragon Ancestry” ability that the other draconians (flyers and hatchlings, anyway) do not? I wonder what that does and why Elders have it and the others don’t…

    I guess it’s a spell-like ability which boosts (and / or heals?) some other draconian unit. In the video the human priests casted ‘iron heart’? on archers who’ve been healed and got some enhancement visual affect.

    #13010

    11balanced
    Member

    Only if you are a Theocrat

    🙂 I’d like to see the Theocrat page in this site thirst, than I’ll decide is that role suitable for me or not )

    #13011

    TheSpeaker
    Member

    I’d like to see the Theocrat page in this site thirst, than I’ll decide is that role suitable for me or not )

    Speaking of which, we’re due a class page before the end of the month.

    #13013

    Knight9910
    Member

    Dragon Ancestry might be a category trait, rather than a buff, like Devout or Magic Origin. It doesn’t really give them anything, but it allows them to be affected by certain blanket buffs – of course, that’s just me guessing…

    #13018

    While we’re on teh subject of racial aesthetics, I for one still think the AoW1 orcs look the best. I don’t know why Triumph went green with them, and I never cared much for it, or indeed why orc infantry changed from swords to axemen, although the latter change didn’t matter very much.

    I think the orc race was best designed in SM, as, imho, every unit had a use. Even the glutton, really a bit of a let down, had its/his/her uses.

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