No more orc buffs!

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Home Forums Update v1.5 – Open Beta Balance No more orc buffs!

This topic contains 29 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by  vota dc 7 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #168051

    Astraflame
    Member

    Seriously can we please stop this madness? Orcs are better than ever before, warcry is good enough, the race dont need more buffs.I see people suggesting shadowstep Evangelists etc? They don’t realize orc Theocrat is one of the best combos in the game already?

    I wasn’t planning on posting but now that i have i will do my own orc suggestion, a nerf.

    The Orc ShockTrooper was balanced pre-patch, best in melee lowest res. They gained guard breaker which means they can support other orc units or kill anything that thinks it’s safe guarding making the target vulnerable to flanking attacks.
    This is not a small buff, in fact it is like someone wrote “Enormous” and i agree. First i thought the devs gone mad then i realized it’s alot of fun to play with and makes orcs more interesting. I now support the new addition but they’re too cheap.

    150 gold/20 mana for what is now a beast, Warlords in Shadow Magic costs more than knights etc, so should the new ShockTrooper.
    They should be there with Firstborns as the most expensive, like the Warlords of old and the dwarf Runemasters.

    #168058

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    OK, I’ll increase their gold cost by 10.

    #168063

    Astraflame
    Member

    Great, thank you.

    #168066

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    It’s no problem! You are correct that we buffed the unit for coolness reasons rather than balance reasons, so it stands to reason that a nerf needs to be applied in some other area.

    #168070

    quo
    Member

    Shocktroopers are very good in 1.5 but IMO not noticeably better than other T3 racial units. They can’t position themselves as easily as most other units or travel the land as easily, and they are easier to crowd control, if not outright steal with abilities like Convert or Seduce. Guardbreaker can be great for some classes, such as Rogues, but it comes with its own downside of the Trooper not being in guard mode itself, which is usually where I’d rather but them (thanks to Tireless and their low Resistance).

    The Shadow Step suggestion came from me, mostly because the Evangelist unit, like Priests, seems to be a “break out” unit with a wide latitude of possible abilities, hence it being one of the very few melee units with 2 races having a ranged channel. A Phase type ability for an Evangelist unit doesn’t seem far out of line with the baseline for that unit to me, not when the alternative is a ranged channel equivalent to the T2 Priest unit. The issue here may not so much be the Orcs but the Evangelists themselves; if Humans or Drakes are around, all my Evangelists will come from those cities. The mildly increased cost for a ranged blast makes them twice as good as the other racial counterparts.

    #168073

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    The main issue is that Shadow Step is an undead ability, so giving it to Theocrats, who are polar opposite to undead, just doesn’t work. It also doesn’t really fit with the Orc ideals of “Hitting things, Cursing things and then Hitting them again”. Teleports are more of an elfy thing.

    #168076

    haloloki
    Member

    The Shadow Step suggestion came from me, mostly because the Evangelist unit, like Priests, seems to be a “break out” unit with a wide latitude of possible abilities, hence it being one of the very few melee units with 2 races having a ranged channel. A Phase type ability for an Evangelist unit doesn’t seem far out of line with the baseline for that unit to me, not when the alternative is a ranged channel equivalent to the T2 Priest unit.

    tbh i think its a good idea too and shadow step is what was it 3 spaces its not like asking for phase lol

    #168078

    quo
    Member

    The main issue is that Shadow Step is an undead ability, so giving it to Theocrats, who are polar opposite to undead, just doesn’t work. It also doesn’t really fit with the Orc ideals of “Hitting things, Cursing things and then Hitting them again”. Teleports are more of an elfy thing.

    I understand. I meant more the relative power level that Shadow Step represents, not so much the flavor of the ability itself. I can see how it might not fit for thematic reasons.

    I think you guys did an excellent job with the T2 Priests, making each race different and viable. I just the Evangelist was more like that, especially since the groundwork is there with Humans and Drakes. 🙂

    #168081

    Astraflame
    Member

    The thing with any unit is knowing how to support it, with ShockTroopers put them in the same group as heroes with res buffers, sorc is ideal since you can give them 40% spirit res and one resistance point. Tireless is also a stong defensive ability, they can’t be AP drained which means the orc player decides when and where that 11res becomes9 (assuming no buffs) IMO it’s now the second best T3 after gryphons only because of the Tireless gold medal.

    #168085

    quo
    Member

    The thing with any unit is knowing how to support it, with ShockTroopers put them in the same group as heroes with res buffers, sorc is ideal since you can give them 40% spirit res and one resistance point. Tireless is also a stong defensive ability, they can’t be AP drained which means the orc player devides when and where that 11res becomes9 (assuming no buffs) IMO it’s now the second best T3 after gryphons only because of the Tireless gold medal.

    And then someone casts Twisting Roots and that Orc Stormtrooper gets to watch the fighting from the nosebleed section while the griffons and eagle riders soar by. 😀

    It’s a good unit but not without its weaknesses. Seems very much on par with its tier.

    #168091

    Astraflame
    Member

    I never stated that, ShockTroopers got an obvious weakness (low res). But the combo of fast infantry speed, strongest melee ability no polearm or any other weakness that targets cavalry, flyer makes them superb.

    PS. Their new ability allows them to support the orc armies, see that hero over there thinking he/she is safe? Break the guard and if the Trooper doesn’t finish him off flank him with the Black orc rider , the new utility is really cool.

    #168185

    Prodigal Sun
    Member

    New utility is very cool but I prefer using them last for Killing Momentum to kick in. I barely ever break guard with a Shock Trooper since they go down very very quick to elemental damage + flank, and those sources are very popular. So I attack to kill a unit and go into guard mode again. It works a little bit like Quick Dash, another great spell.

    #168715

    n0rf
    Member

    Imo shocktroopers were absolutely imbalanced even before patch. Killing momentum + tireless it is insane combo. Elite shocktrooper has 103hp 14def 10res and with touch of faith it is already 14def and 13res and such shocktrooper can ALWAYS be in guard mode. So it is about 17def and 15res. And there is no way to hit it without retaliation attack. To kill this thing you need sacriface at least stack of swordsmen. Even 3 priests would barely beat it. And actually you don’t even need to buy it. It could be in your starting forces.

    I beg you NERF THIS THING before it’s too late. Before that elite shocktrooper murder all of us. I say not about ridiculous 10 extra gold cost. Please change it’s killing momentum or tireless to something that do not make such terrific combo. It still be a deathmachine, but at least some lucky guy would be able to kill it.

    #168728

    hastypudding
    Member

    Thank goodness nobody starts with a buffed elite Shock Trooper. You’re right, that would be horribly overpowered.

    #168750

    llfoso
    Member

    I say drop its defense. The speed, damage, HP, and abilities are all really fitting and I don’t want to see them go, but having high defense on top of everything else is probably excessive.

    #169086

    NuMetal
    Member

    I say drop its defense.

    Why?

    It already got the cost increase, so that should be enough.

    #169098

    Astraflame
    Member

    Yup, it’s enough. They’re still vulnerable to magic although Troopers supported by Evangelists and mark of the heretic are pretty OP. Then again elf Horse archers/ hunters are ridiculous so most races have one crazy combo.

    #169118

    quo
    Member

    I could see their defense being lowered a bit, but no more than 1 or 2 points.

    Stormtroopers are good units but they are super vulnerable to -Move and Mind Control. That makes them into a loose cannon unit if ever there was one. Against melee units they are very powerful but not out of line with other T3 racial units.

    Regardless, the fact that Evangelists buff Resistance is kind of beside the point. Any unit buffed by an Evangelist will have higher Resistance, that’s entire point of Touch of Faith. yes a Stormtrooper buffed by this ability has 13 resist, but so what, a different unit would have more than that and be even harder to mind control or debuff. I am running around with a party right now which happens to contain a Stormtrooper, a Griffon Rider and a Shock Serpent and the Trooper has the *lowest* priority for Touch of Faith because despite Tireless he is the worst choice for tanking ranged elemental damage.

    #169133

    Astraflame
    Member

    Touch of faith is good on any unit, the reason Troopers benefit more than other T3 is their superior killing power, res malus holds them back now remove it and they are hard to stop. Compared with a knight, touch of faith is good for them but their res is not a problem, unless your enemy is super heavy on magic and mind steal the knight is better with a Warlord hero buffing their damage/defence or a rogue for wall climbing/armor pen etc. ShockTroopers are godly withbless,knights,firstborns i find killer instincts work better, especially with touch of faith +mark+ chaplain.

    #171239

    kugi
    Member

    ShockTroopers with Guard Breaking are pretty OP. It is a “slash-machine”!
    Needs some nerf, drop its defense by 2 (or -1 def and -1 res) and add Guard Breaking on silver.

    #171318

    Zaskow
    Member

    Plz, leave poor orcs alone. Don’t turn them into squalor as they were in 1.4 and before.

    #171373

    Hieronymous
    Member

    Is guard breaking an automatic effect? Or does it have a chance to fail? It sounds very, very powerful, and raises questions of why, say, a giant or dragon attack couldn’t just as easily rip you out of your defensive stance. If it’s automatic, maybe it should be changed to a physical channel inflict-type ability, or be a single shot ability, like defensive strike.

    #171396

    Fenraellis
    Member

    It automatically removes Guard Mode AFTER the first melee attack lands(Guard/Defender bonus still applies to the initial attack).

    #177028

    I was going to create a post about it, but this one seens to have almost the same concerns.
    First, I want to say that the new changes in the orcs are AMAZING finally I want to play them, it is one of my favorite fantasy races (besides dwarfs) and now with the War Cry they become what Orc should be, scary.

    But I do have a problem, especially with they T3 unit, at the same time that they are the strongest Meele in the game, they are also one of the T3 I want to play the least, why?
    Because they got killing momentum as a gold medal. I’m the kind of player that try my best to create a medium amount of SUPER strong units, so when I play an infatery t3 I try to get the Dungeon bonuses on to the unity before I start to mass production. But, Shock trooper don’t really benefits from the Dungeon Bonuses, since they already got Killing Momentum at Gold start. So right now, I rather play as a Draconian/Dwarf and have their Infantry Racial unit with the Dungeon bonus, instead playing with orcs. Maybe it is something only I have (I tend to be perfeccionist with my units) but it is something that spoil a bit playing as orcs to me.

    What I suggest: Change Killing momentum on Gold Medal on Shock Troopers to War Cry! 😡 If that is too much OP, maybe…something else, not sure what (Edit: Sprint could be fun and thematic, but also OP.)

    #177039

    Ericridge
    Member

    I’ll say one thing, I’m too scared to attempt to beat taming the khan scenario just to see how hard it is now with new upgrades to orcs XD

    #177071

    Fenraellis
    Member

    But I do have a problem, especially with they T3 unit, at the same time that they are the strongest Meele in the game, they are also one of the T3 I want to play the least, why?
    Because they got killing momentum as a gold medal. I’m the kind of player that try my best to create a medium amount of SUPER strong units, so when I play an infatery t3 I try to get the Dungeon bonuses on to the unity before I start to mass production. But, Shock trooper don’t really benefits from the Dungeon Bonuses, since they already got Killing Momentum at Gold start. So right now, I rather play as a Draconian/Dwarf and have their Infantry Racial unit with the Dungeon bonus, instead playing with orcs. Maybe it is something only I have (I tend to be perfeccionist with my units) but it is something that spoil a bit playing as orcs to me.

    What I suggest: Change Killing momentum on Gold Medal on Shock Troopers to War Cry! 😡 If that is too much OP, maybe…something else, not sure what (Edit: Sprint could be fun and thematic, but also OP.)

    =/ There are plenty of units which already lack a significant benefit from specific mystic sites or class upgrades.

    Besides, the Shock Trooper does still gain increased melee strength from a Dungeon, so it’s not like it’s missing out. Also, and most importantly, Shock Troopers are not going to be Elite(Gold) rank by default. At best, from a Necromancer, they can start at Veteran(Bronze) rank. I’m going to ignore Global Assault from the Warlord, since that’s not nearly as available.

    On a side note, Shock Troopers, like Dwarves, are Armored, so they can get Enchanted Armor if available.

    #177115

    Gloweye
    Member

    I’ll say one thing, I’m too scared to attempt to beat taming the khan scenario just to see how hard it is now with new upgrades to orcs XD

    I was thinking about doing that on Emperor through PBEM..if you start a game, I’ll join ya 😀

    #177128

    =/ There are plenty of units which already lack a significant benefit from specific mystic sites or class upgrades.

    Yeah I know that are other units that does not gain a significant bonus from the mystic sites, but for me they all should gain 😡 It is much more rewarding when you find a Dungeon with a Dwarf than it is with an Orc.

    Besides that I would rather have Shock Trooper with War Cry instead of killing momentum, even if necessary nerf him a little so he could have War Cry and don’t break the game hehe

    But, besides Shoock Trooper I love all the Orcs Units in the moment and I don’t think it should have any more buff on them.

    #177221

    Gyor
    Member

    Succubi eat Shocktroopers for breakfast in my experience, they can weaken resistance with curse, greater mobility, steal enchantments like touch of faith bronze medal, and ultimately seduce, Shadow Stalkers have pysical resistance so Shocktroopers don’t do well against them,, or Nymph and bards can charm or seduce one one. Evangelists too. I think Ice Queens, especially ones with Frost Aura will be a nightmare for Shocktroopers (Firstborn with Meteoite Armour will in turn be a nightmare for Ice Queens). Elementals in general will be tough. Apprentices and Storm sisters with shocking. Manticore Riders. Eldrich Horror etc…

    #177481

    vota dc
    Member

    oing to create a post about it, but this one seens to have almost the same concerns.
    First, I want to say that the new changes in the orcs are AMAZING finally I want to play them, it is one of my favorite fantasy races (besides dwarfs) and now with the War Cry they become what Orc should be, scary.
    But I do have a problem, especially with they T3 unit, at the same time that they are the strongest Meele in the game, they are also one of the T3 I want to play the least, why?
    Because they got killing momentum as a gold medal. I’m the kind of player that try my best to create a medium amount of SUPER strong units, so when I play an infatery t3 I try to get the Dungeon bonuses on to the unity before I start to mass production. But, Shock trooper don’t really benefits from the Dungeon Bonuses, since they already got Killing Momentum at Gold start. So right now, I rather play as a Draconian/Dwarf and have their Infantry Racial unit with the Dungeon bonus, instead playing with orcs. Maybe it is something only I have (I tend to be perfeccionist with my units) but it is something that spoil a bit playing as orcs to me.

    Wh

    They used to have martial arts and that was worse because it collided with Warlord skill.

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