Node Serpent

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This topic contains 213 replies, has 28 voices, and was last updated by  Bouh 6 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #223819

    ExNihil
    Member

    Hi Guys,

    Node Serpents suck…. they really do. Squishy, not enough resistances, and really leaving a huge gap in the Sorcerer line-up: You got Phantasm Warriors, which have good melee but are slow and have crappy resistance, wyverns which you can’t count on, Watcher which is rare, and really shoddy t3 units. Horrors are fine, not amazing, but Serpents suck.

    Please buff this unit… substantially.

    Even very high resistance, which is fitting, will be enough. Maybe extra HP as well. Or multiple elemental resistances. Or some degree of physical resistance.

    #223823

    Ericridge
    Member

    They do pretty alot of damage whenever they hit stuff don’t they?

    Even recruit wild node serpents is painful.

    #223825

    NINJEW
    Member

    they’re draconian fliers with 1 more point of defense, dual channel damage, and also phase and sprint

    sounds pretty alright to me

    #223830

    vota dc
    Member

    They were terrible before the patch. Only goblin witch doctors were worse (touch ability and unable to work on 100% blight protection units).

    #223832

    they’re draconian fliers with 1 more point of defense, dual channel damage, and also phase and sprint

    sounds pretty alright to me

    yeah, phase alpha flank strike, and then sprint on out to safety. Seems pretty good as is.

    #223834

    Garresh
    Member

    This again?

    Node Serpents are fine. They’ve been fine for some time.

    #223846

    ExNihil
    Member

    Just a quick survey, who of you actually plays sorcerer regularly?

    #223847

    NINJEW
    Member

    do you play rogue regularly?

    i’d say sorc is the class that i have roughly the 3rd or 4th most experience with, though i’m maybe 80% a dreadnought player

    #223851

    Ericridge
    Member

    Just a quick survey, who of you actually plays sorcerer regularly?

    AI uses node serpents against me. They is perfectly capable of dishing out pain upon machine units from dreadnought XD And then they can bully tier 1-2 units.

    Swoop an army of them upon a city with tier 1 archers and it’s yours.

    But whenever I play as sorcerer, I go for the Stungeddeon. Cover the map in apprentices and stun everything to death with summons supporting them. Tbh, I prefer node serpents over beholders.

    #223854

    Bob5
    Member

    I play quite regularly as Sorc with them, I think they’re way better than Fantastic Creature per cost, especially if you manage to summon them at bronze medal in later game. Practically unmatched speed on the tactical map as well at bronze or better, I think only sprinting Tigran Assassins can move more hexes on the tactical map, as well as some Tigran hero builds. They’re fairly squishy, but their job isn’t to take hits, their job is to dish out damage from flanks, taking hits is the job of Phantasm warriors and damage is also reduced by stunning supports.

    I think Node Serpents deal plenty of damage, 6 + 11 is well into T3 territory at base, compare to Orc Shock Trooper (17 melee), Draconian flyer (16 melee), Eagle Riders (13 melee but have AoE), Gryphon Riders (15 melee), they’re not too bad at all.

    #223857

    NINJEW
    Member

    they’re kind of like beefier eagle riders, in a way

    #223871

    ExNihil
    Member

    do you play rogue regularly?

    Well, Ninjew, I am always upfront and clear about these questions. Go read the first two pages of the Rogue balance thread and you will be answered, the same transparency from yourself would be refreshing.

    Since you play “80% of the time” DN and Sorcerer is 3rd or 4th for you, that means you play it less then 10% of the time, or am I mistaken? I suggest you play a bit more of it and try out Node Serpent vs. other class t3 units and/or racial units with class tech buffing and come back with your conclusions.

    AI uses node serpents against me. They is perfectly capable of dishing out pain upon machine units from dreadnought XD And then they can bully tier 1-2 units.

    Well, I think you can yourself detect some biases with your observations, (a) you are playing vs. the AI only, and (b) you are playing DN and against machine units, and only against machine units, Node Serpents hit very hard because of the shock weakness of machines.

    Try playing Sorcerer and see how powerful you find Node Serpents after that, or use other classes vs. Sorcerer AIs, will give you a larger sample, albeit an AI centric one at that.

    they’re kind of like beefier eagle riders, in a way

    Nope, they aren’t. They don’t have luck and are slower, even at gold medal.

    Practically unmatched speed on the tactical map as well at bronze or better

    Wrong, at 40MP floating they traverse 10 hexes of normal land tiles and are slower than the 36MP fliers who can do 12 hexes, being equal to the normal 30MP fliers who do 10 hexes as well. They are the fastest units above water at 13 hexes.

    Tactically they do 10 hexes + sprint + phase, which gives them the largest standard range (at gold medal) for a single round, or when split in two, for two rounds.

    Actually Tigran Sphinx which is an irregular unit with lesser flying has better tactical speed when combined with explorer – and without once per battle abilities in the mix, Tigran Assassins can also enter these realms. After sprint and/or phase has been exhausted they are not faster then 36MP flyers, and without both are equal at gold medal to a standard flying unit.

    BUT Node Serpents only have 40MP at Bronze Medal, and unless you have Wizard Academy built in one of your cities AND you summon to the domain rather than to your army, which can be very far away and engaged in a war to begin with, you are creating these at recruit level period. How do you create them at Bronze medal directly? I have never seen this done, all I know of is the ability to add a single medal from Wizard Academy to a summon, which is rather mahh for a class whose main advantage is summoning on the go.

    When at recruit they have 32MP floating, which equals 8 hexes of normal land tiles and 10 hexes of sea tiles, which makes them strategically slower than then flying units above land (-2 hexes for 30MP flyers, -4 hexes for 36MP flyers) and as fast as normal flyers above water. The same situation is true tactically with the addition of 1xsprint and phase.

    Finally the mobility upgrade is also a bit fucked up- Sorcerer heroes can float, but they do it at a maximum of 36MP unless they find an item that upgrades them to 40MP, or they can get a flying mount that has 30MP flying. This means that unless the Node Serpents are at Bronze Medal you are probably moving slower then your fastest unit, and when they are at Bronze Medal and your hero is flying you are still restricted to a maximum speed that is always lower then that of some of your units above some terrain types (mountains, water). If you need to move multiple stacks across distances this is rather redundant, if you want a fast hit squad you are better off with racial flyers most of the time, so the thing this really brings to the fore is scouting – on an expensive t3 unit with no vision range upgrade inherently and no true sight… great.

    ———-

    Now, what is the problem with Node Serpents? Well, thanks for asking. The problem is first and foremost Sorcerer and the way its mechanics work. Summoning is a constricted channel, you can only summon one unit at a time and until you break the CP/Mana limitations you must produce units at a rate of 2-3 turns per unit at the most, barring extreme luck with Essence Harvest (usually lends me a couple of extra units over 20 turns using AC).

    Sorcerer is the only class in the game that doesn’t have 2 t3 units – it has Fantastic Creatures, which have a 33% chance of lending a watcher, which is too small a chance to count on when you can only produce a single unit at a time, and they have Node Serpents. The choice is thus between Producing a Phantasm Warrior and a Node Serpent, and both units are severly limited in their functions:

    Phantasm Warriors are powerful t2 units that counter melee based units, esp. t1/2 units, but are slow – both tactically and strategically – and have very bad resistance and can thus be killed with ease by any player with a lot of elemental damage, esp. non-shock damage.

    Node Serpents on the other hand are fast t3 units – strategically as fast as flyers or above water, faster, and tactically having a burst speed for a short period of time and then the speed of a normal flyer. But they are also squishy, where the Phantasm Warrior has Physical resistance they have 12 defense (no shield, unlike PW) and 65HP, which is actually a lot less vs. physical damage then the PW, and their resistance is also not very impressive – at 11 resistance they are equal to all standard melee t3 units. Their sole saving grace is high shock damage on their dual channel attack, but vs. high resistance opponents, which is what you get in the t3 realm quite often (not DN machines) this attack doesn’t hit very hard, even when factoring +2 damage x2 channels when flanking, which is what they can do well – a maximum of twice per battle (better than normal units that is). When they are flanked though they are fucked quite easily.

    Where are you guys wrong? Thanks for asking again. Node Serpent is highly vulnerable to elemental damage, except shock to which it is immune. At 11 resistance at recruit and with 0 elemental resistances it is decimated by support units (non HE) and any dual channel t3, and even some powerful t2. Since there are a great many options in the current meta of adding elemental damage channels to produced units, on top of which critical damage and morale mechanics often make ranged attacks utterly devastating (even before considering Gray Guard adapt), which makes Node Serpents extremely vulnerable. When fighting equally tiered and sized forces Node Serpents – which are THE t3 unit of Sorcerer – cannot be used as front line units or meat shields, and Phantasm Warriors do even worse vs. elemental damage to begin with. Here the sprint and phase are actually rather big maluses, going in faster and deeper vs. a capable opponent is pretty much suicidal.

    This leaves Sorcerer with a huge gaping hole in its lineup, in fact until Horrors it can’t field any unit that can do reasonably well vs. high resistance + elemental damage dealing opponents.

    Last thing – Inflict Shocking, seemingly this should be a powerful thing, but in actuality it is a t1 inflict ability, rolling 7 shock check, which although not resisted by many units, is also not a weakness of many units. Furthermore, this very same ability appears on the Phantasm Warrior, where it is tier fitting, and is the only inflict trick up the sleeve that Sorcerer has as a combat unit buff in the form of Star Blades. It is thus almost completely redundant and weak.

    The Node Serpents medal upgrades are a mobility buff, at Bronze Medal, which I opposed from the onset as being really not what this unit needed to begin with, and Inflict Stun at GM, which is nice but a bit redundant for Sorcerer. This is a melee based unit with a t1 melee inflict ability and nothing else there.

    What this unit needs is a serious increase of its resistance – weirdly Sorcerer has really no way in class to enhance resistance except through +1 from an army leader perk. Its “Magical Origin” units are rather low resistance in their respective tiers (compare DN machines and Node serpent, difference is 1 point, two elemental immunities, one elemental weakness and a leader that can close off this weakness and increase fire resistance + cast Force Field). This is first and foremost thematically unsound – Sorcerer is a magical class with a huge elemental vulnerability, second the Node Serpent is supposedly a creature that thrives in raw mana currents and yet it is easily killed with all elements except shock, and third its attack is less magical and powerful than that of multiple t2/3 units – having zero magical abilities of itself, no special melee abilities, and only Inflict Shocking. Yes Phase is a wonderful magical ability… but this is a floating unit and attacking x1 after phase into enemy lines, unless there is a serious gap in the defenses or the enemy is weak and cannot mount a defense is suicidal. I’d rather have phasing unicorn riders with pistols or with martial arts training and thoroughbred mounts then Node Serpents, any day.

    ——

    Now to close off this long post. Ninjew compared these units to Eagle Riders and before that to Draconian Flyers. This is a false comparison – first off, compare these units to class units, second class synergies need to be considered. If you take a unit like the eagle rider without considering how it can work within classes you are not doing this right. If you use Eagle Riders with classes that can substantially synergize with cavalry units you see that what you get for your t3 unit is much much better then Node Serpent. Sorcerer has, in fact, 0 techs that upgrade its summoning units. Same goes for Draconian Flyers, which actually give Sorcerer something it doesn’t have in the Node Serpent – melee killing abilities, MCU upgrades and Alignment upgrades when produced (no need to summon them to the domain to get these) on top of better overall speed that matches flying mounts. Consider how these can mix with other classes and they are all over better and more powerful units.

    #223872

    Zaskow
    Member

    Now, what is the problem with Node Serpents? Well, thanks for asking. The problem is first and foremost Sorcerer and the way its mechanics work. Summoning is a constricted channel, you can only summon one unit at a time and until you break the CP/Mana limitations you must produce units at a rate of 2-3 turns per unit at the most, barring extreme luck with Essence Harvest (usually lends me a couple of extra units over 20 turns using AC).

    Actually, this is problem for not only sorc. All summoning classes suffer from this. At certain stages of game loss of summoning classes against production classes becomes almost imminent. You just can’t summon enough units to match with warlord or dread. Summoning class has only one very tight window (around 10 turns max) of highest efficiency when he can WIN. I say about MP, of course, and don’t count early rushes.

    Also @exnihil, you may notice that Node serpent is cheapest research before t4 comparing with other class stuff. Potentially, you can field Node serpents earlier.

    #223874

    ExNihil
    Member

    No, you can’t field them earlier – they are 400RP. compare this with AD and how much shamans cost. You field t4s earlier but not Node Serpents. Also vs. production classes – you got 2 classes with inherent evolution, you got humans with cavalry evolution for WL and DN, you got cheap t3 research for Theo, so only Necro is substantially slower.

    This isn’t a problem for all other summoning classes because AD got 2 production units, t1 and t3, and the t3 is powerful, and Necro has production t2, 2xproduction t3 and a summoning t4.

    #223877

    What if there was a way to decrease the CP of summoning units with game progression? Via Empire Upgrades or buildings or something like that.

    Suggestions:
    – Each Grand Temple could decrease 5% CP cost of summoning units (to a max 30-60% reduction), that could be inherent to the building and not related to any class, because even classes like Warlords that don’t have summons, they could could have a specialization granting a summon for them or even got luck and receive a summon spell as prize.

    – Sorcerer, AD, Necro: Could all have a CP reduction linked to either their Class building, something similiar to the previous suggestion that each building providing 5% reduction to a max of 30-60% for each Tier 3 build you have in your empire. Or likned to an late game Empire Ugrade.

    #223882

    ExNihil
    Member

    More units doesn’t resolve the problem with the units themselves. I hardly ever find Sorcerer has a unit production problem in MP games, you don’t often get to the point in which dual channel production is negated by the production bonuses of other classes to the point of being marginalized.

    #223890

    Gloweye
    Member

    How do you create them at Bronze medal directly? I have never seen this done, all I know of is the ability to add a single medal from Wizard Academy to a summon, which is rather mahh for a class whose main advantage is summoning on the go.

    Wizard’s Tower allows Arcane Catalyst, which gives Supercharged and a Medal to all summons.

    Last thing – Inflict Shocking, seemingly this should be a powerful thing, but in actuality it is a t1 inflict ability, rolling 7 shock check, which although not resisted by many units, is also not a weakness of many units. Furthermore, this very same ability appears on the Phantasm Warrior, where it is tier fitting, and is the only inflict trick up the sleeve that Sorcerer has as a combat unit buff in the form of Star Blades. It is thus almost completely redundant and weak.

    In my experience, inflict shocking is pretty powerful whenever it takes effect – it gives a very nice 40% weakness making it easier to re-apply, and of course the synergy with your stunning supports.

    Now I’m not a Sorc player by any means, and in fact most of my experience is solely dependent on some campaign levels, but node serpent seems to hit harder than most other T3’s – flanks are reliable, and inflict shocking hurts like hell with your 11 shock damage.

    Now maybe the deserve a point of resistance. Not that sure though.

    #223891

    ExNihil
    Member

    Wizard’s Tower allows Arcane Catalyst, which gives Supercharged and a Medal to all summons.

    Ha, so two medals. Still, summoning in domain is not good, at least in MP.

    Now maybe the deserve a point of resistance. Not that sure though.

    Im talking about +3 resistance or serious elemental resistances.

    Now I’m not a Sorc player by any means, and in fact most of my experience is solely dependent on some campaign levels, but node serpent seems to hit harder than most other T3’s – flanks are reliable, and inflict shocking hurts like hell with your 11 shock damage.

    Flanks are not reliable if you are fighting an equally tiered and as large an army with most classes, node serpents die after flanking very fast.

    In my experience, inflict shocking is pretty powerful whenever it takes effect – it gives a very nice 40% weakness making it easier to re-apply, and of course the synergy with your stunning supports.

    It first needs to take effect, which means if you are phasing in you have a very small chance of this actually happening, and if you are fighting high resistance opponents it doesn’t apply very often at all.

    Compare this to Inflict Chilling, triggering on ranged attacks from WW, and having an 8 check rather than 7. This is a devastating ability that can be massed.

    #223893

    ExNihil
    Member

    Wizard’s Tower allows Arcane Catalyst, which gives Supercharged and a Medal to all summons.

    Ha… but wait, you are talking about an MCU upgrade that actually requires having a mythical dungeon in your domain cleared, yes? So this is pretty much irrelevant, aside from summoning to domain being bad to begin with.

    #223896

    Gloweye
    Member

    Wizard’s Tower allows Arcane Catalyst, which gives Supercharged and a Medal to all summons.

    Ha… but wait, you are talking about an MCU upgrade that actually requires having a mythical dungeon in your domain cleared, yes? So this is pretty much irrelevant, aside from summoning to domain being bad to begin with.

    It’s pretty relevant considering Bronze Horrors(after all, half of the players lose their game, which means that the bronze horror is summoned at your own doorstep half the time), but it’s a bit less when talking about serpents. For example, GR campaign level 2 allows bronze summons come turn 12.

    #223897

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, I dunno what happens in SP so I can’t comment on this part, I’ll tell you that in MP the MCU upgrades that work on summoned units are very problematic and don’t offer much – at least no consistently or even remotely close to consistently. Alignment techs are more powerful here but again offer a very difficult choice that in competative games is often a non-choice – you either build your army when you are moving (which is your biggest strategic advantage) or getting the summon with the alignment tech applied to it.

    Horrors are something I liked to summon in secret, unlocking them early and stacking them where the other player(s) can’t see, but with EQ on this is now impossible, if you unlock t4 first everybody knows about it and expects it, so summoning to domain for stealth reasons is less of a play, and if someone tech rushers quicker then you it usually means its time to cut the snake by its head ASAP, so summoning on the go it is.

    I guess that in very long games this will be more of a factor with horrors, but frankly most large maps ffas die out quicker then this would actually have a meaningful effect, and med maps don’t get this far without serious warfare a lot sooner. I might try it in one of my Sorcerer PBEMs, seems people like large maps with far beginning and UG there, which means you have A LOT of time before you are killing each other. Might also try magical items strats there, will see how these pen out with the PvP AC. But we are getting off topic….

    #223900

    Zaskow
    Member

    This isn’t a problem for all other summoning classes because AD got 2 production units, t1 and t3, and the t3 is powerful, and Necro has production t2, 2xproduction t3 and a summoning t4.

    Do you really want to compare pitiful hunters and shamans with cannons, warbreeds, phalanx, flame tanks, exalted etc? I don’t even mention spam of t4 from production classes.
    Shaman is mediocre unit. Weak range and melee, no powerful sustain abilities from beginning, entangling touch is no deal against T3s. Only Tigran version shines.

    What if there was a way to decrease the CP of summoning units with game progression? Via Empire Upgrades or buildings or something like that.

    Good suggestion. As for me, I was thinking about late-game, expensive tech, which implements discount for summoning (30-40%).

    #223908

    This leaves Sorcerer with a huge gaping hole in its lineup, in fact until Horrors it can’t field any unit that can do reasonably well vs. high resistance + elemental damage dealing opponents.

    Aren’t frostling sorcs the ubermensch of sorcs now? So doesn’t that mean you can combine star blades and frozen flame on the unit, phase in, and get a really strong multi damage channel flank? And then, if done correctly, have just enough hp left to sprint to safety?

    Not to mention that inflict stun supports could work with shockserpents to limit the amount of flanking to not instant death. Not to mention thunderstorm and static electricity for shock buffs.

    Seems like a useful thing to me. The alignment techs are also relatively cheap, so a sorc with essence harvest could pretty easily use the extra cp to put the enchantment on a newly taken city and then immediately get an alignment compliant t-3, whereas other classes would have to wait to absorb or migrate the city.

    At most, serpents could get backstab. It does wonders for the vampire spider queen at gold (who is now my favorite spider).

    #223917

    ExNihil
    Member

    Frostlings Sorcerer are the new Draconians, doesn’t change though the base unit. You get powerful combos with each and every class, do what you just mentioned with Big Beetle + Charged Army and you get even more damage channels.

    At most, serpents could get backstab. It does wonders for the vampire spider queen at gold (who is now my favorite spider).

    Thats not a bad idea, but the issue isn’t their damage output, it’s their survivability which as I tried to explain is the main issue for Sorcerer – not a single unit except Horrors has good resistance, and there is no way to buff resistance within class except through army leader (this is like WL basically, compare with Rogue, Necro, AD and Theo this is grimm and even DN has better options).

    If I could reconfigure this unit completely, which I could do in a future mod but this is a balance discussion, I would strip it from its current medal upgrades and remake it into a proper melee unit. Assuming that this is not going to happen, it needs to be able to survive normal combat as well as what happens after the flank. This unit suffers from what Assassins suffer BUT it is the main t3 unit of this class and it doesn’t have the devastating damage output of Assassin strike. Backstab will simply make it into an even better flanker, but from the onset this wasn’t the issue with it and I have no idea why the devs decided to go in this direction with the only t3 unit Sorcerer can reliably get (I assume it was a big discussion in the beta thread in parallel to my own Sorcerer Balancing Thread from last year). This is an AUXILARY unit as it is but it takes the spot of a main a central unit – you got enough auxiliaries in summon fantastic creature – and backstab wouldn’t help here.

    If the devs do decide that they can strip the Inflict Stun from the Gold Medal, and hopefully also the Mobility upgrade as well, then some other abilities are due, but I am doubtful we will see either one of these happen.

    #223920

    ExNihil
    Member

    Do you really want to compare pitiful hunters and shamans with cannons, warbreeds, phalanx, flame tanks, exalted etc? I don’t even mention spam of t4 from production classes.
    Shaman is mediocre unit. Weak range and melee, no powerful sustain abilities from beginning, entangling touch is no deal against T3s. Only Tigran version shines.

    All shamans are good units, they are supports, with awaken, entangling touch, decent ranged abilities, high HP – they synergize remarkably well with AD and with enough of them together with hunters and animals they are formidable. Tigran variant is straight OP. Cannons are excellent, Phalanx are same research tier as shamans and are an inferior unit, exalted are a tier above – compare these with evangelists amigo, warbreed are a tier above and non-viable economically. t4 spamming is irrelevant here, bring in HG and discuss it in this context. Whats you point? Node Serpent is the crappiest t3 class unit around barring evangelists – when these are considered as combat units rather than supports, which is what they are and then are not crappy at all.

    Your previous point was about unlocking them earlier, fact is that is incorrect in the current meta, respective of both RP costs and evolution vectors. If you want to compare Node Serpent by its actual role, then compare these to: Exalted, Golems, Phalanx/Warbreed, Death Bringer, Assassins/Shadow Stalkers and Gargantuan Animals.

    #223921

    ExNihil
    Member

    Good suggestion. As for me, I was thinking about late-game, expensive tech, which implements discount for summoning (30-40%).

    It’s called Age of Magic and it discounts 50%, there is no room for any other kind of discount on this class unless the ultimate spell is changed, which will not happen.

    #223928

    Good suggestion. As for me, I was thinking about late-game, expensive tech, which implements discount for summoning (30-40%).

    It’s called Age of Magic and it discounts 50%, there is no room for any other kind of discount on this class unless the ultimate spell is changed, which will not happen.

    But that is an ultimate spell, even in SP it don’t show up all games. The % discount that I proposed would show up by mid to late and not late to ultra late game. It could stack partly with Age of Magic, to a max of 60% discount. Yeah, they would lose some of the discount, but still would have it without Age of Magic. And that also helps out late game druids and necros a bit.

    #223932

    And that also helps out late game druids and necros a bit.

    Wild life refuge also makes all summons take 25% less upkeep and is available early, so they don’t need more help. Also The Horned God is too magnificent (at my and Fen and our allies bidding, of course) to spam.

    Thats not a bad idea, but the issue isn’t their damage output, it’s their survivability which as I tried to explain is the main issue for Sorcerer – not a single unit except Horrors has good resistance, and there is no way to buff resistance within class except through army leader (this is like WL basically, compare with Rogue, Necro, AD and Theo this is grimm and even DN has better options).

    yeah, I get it. My question is why is this necessary, since sorcs have super supports to shut down stuff.

    I have no idea why the devs decided to go in this direction with the only t3 unit Sorcerer can reliably get (I assume it was a big discussion in the beta thread in parallel to my own Sorcerer Balancing Thread from last year)

    Because sorc was way too good at the beginning, so no one noticed that the node serpent was under powered. As the class balance got better, people started noticing, so it was made into an actually good harasser rather than a mainline battle unit.

    Anyway, to make the unit more durable I’d just put on total awareness in your mod.

    #223934

    ExNihil
    Member

    Because sorc was way too good at the beginning, so no one noticed that the node serpent was under powered. As the class balance got better, people started noticing, so it was made into an actually good harasser rather than a mainline battle unit.

    I am partly responsible since I catalyzed the nerfs but no one heeded my cries about node serpents, only about watchers being too prevalent.

    yeah, I get it. My question is why is this necessary, since sorcs have super supports to shut down stuff.

    Supports are upgraded t2 units, they require meat shields to be effective. They are slow, phasing once and have low HP and unimpressive defense except dwarfs. Their attack is low dmg against high resistance opponents, and stunning can be negated with resistance increases and DN heroes.

    The problem is t3 units first and foremost, and all other high resist unit..

    #223945

    Zaskow
    Member

    All shamans are good units, they are supports, with awaken, entangling touch, decent ranged abilities, high HP – they synergize remarkably well with AD and with enough of them together with hunters and animals they are formidable.

    Problem is that their possible synergies aren’t noticeable and amazing comparing with battle skills of unit which can be fielded by Warlords, Dreads.

    Phalanx are same research tier as shamans and are an inferior unit

    If you think that Shaman could win at combat against Phalanx I have bad news for you.

    Node Serpent is the crappiest t3 class unit around barring evangelists – when these are considered as combat units rather than supports, which is what they are and then are not crappy at all.

    Node serpent is crappy unit only in current reality of autocombats. When AI likes very much to throw your units into suicidal attacks, it’s not problem of unit, it’s problem of tactical AI.

    It’s called Age of Magic and it discounts 50%, there is no room for any other kind of discount on this class unless the ultimate spell is changed, which will not happen.

    Actually, I said about discount ONLY for summoning, not for ALL casting.

    Also The Horned God is too magnificent (at my and Fen and our allies bidding, of course) to spam.

    Hah, Juggers or massed Manticores laugh at HG’s face.

    Anyway, to make the unit more durable I’d just put on total awareness in your mod.

    Enemies soak all action points and beat your serpents to the death. Ending will be later, but the same.

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