Node Serpent

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This topic contains 213 replies, has 28 voices, and was last updated by  Bouh 7 years, 2 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 181 through 210 (of 214 total)
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  • #226590

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, this is a balance discussion m8, and we are before modding tools are out – there is no way a new unit will be introduced at this stage. Wyverns are sub-par units for this price, competitive MP players won’t summon them because they are not worthwhile to have as they are, they require attention. Reducing the spell cost to 100CP is 80% of job already.

    As for mend magical creature not working of wyverns, thats a small issue I didn’t think about previously and TBH never had occasion to encounter – my wyverns died to quickly :).

    But its simple enough to solve, Mend Magical Creature can be changed to work on all units with the Summon label and then some units can be excluded through their secondary labels in case of Sorcerer heroes, such as machines, animals, giants (although Horned God might qualify as a matter of fact – and since Cockatrice is also the only Monster of the AD summons it might also benefit), and so forth. This way you can heal wyverns and in fact all the Sorcerer summons without any problems using Mend Magical Creature as well as many other creatures and your Sorcerer Heroes will be useful as healers to other players as well. I already suggested in a specialized thread that mend magical creature work on undead creatures to buff undead synergies for non-necro players and give one more useful hero to necro, so this simply builds on this idea – basically if it drops CP from Essence Harvest there is no reason you shouldn’t be able to “Mend” it with a sorcerer hero or a converted/produced apprentice IMO, unless there is a balance issue in doing this or it makes a really bad conceptual problem (such as mending a drone, or a summoned boar out of the wild).

    #226639

    Bob5
    Member

    I’m pretty sure Mend Magical Being already works on all summoned creatures doesn’t it?

    #226640

    ExNihil
    Member

    No, it works on the magical origin label only, which doesn’t appear on Wyverns.

    #226695

    Bouh
    Member

    The point of comparison is class units:
    Warbreed has 80HP + Regrowth
    Phalanx has 65HP + 12 Def + Shield + received Martial arts training bonus + pikesquare, hence effectively having a maximum defense of 22 when attacking at recruit a cavalry/flying unit, or a meager 17 when attacking, that is, substantially higher than 65HP for all intents and purposes.
    Yes, 75HP is significant, but dude it isn’t even close…

    You forgot some key things here, like they are warlord units, with only physical damage, warbreed is stupidly weak to magic, and they don’t float, nor phase, nor sprint…

    And there still is the question : why should the sorcerer get a summonable tank ?

    What you answered is that sorcerer players would prefer that. But that’s absolutely not a reason to give it to them. Sorcerer players will always prefer a stronger sorcerer.

    As already said the sorcerer is already a top class, buffing strategicaly like that would be dramaticaly bad for the balance of the game.

    #226705

    ExNihil
    Member

    Nope, as already said – it is easy to balance with CP and RP cost adjustments, in fact it will be more balanced and will level out Sorcerer addressing some existing issues that can be addressed along the way, as I previously wrote.

    But… please, take a few more days to think it over by all means 🙂

    #226860

    NINJEW
    Member

    yeah i think the big reason why sorcs don’t have a massive resistance blocker is that phantasms are already ridiculously good physical blockers, and mixing the two could prove frustratingly effective. sorc’s already a top class without access to that. forget having high defense and high res on the same unit, i’m fairly uncomfortable with just the high res part on one unit.

    please don’t give sorcs a res tank, sorcs don’t need a hard counter to literally every possible strategy that could be thrown at them. stuns are already a soft counter to basically the entire game.

    #226861

    NINJEW
    Member

    sorcs need a high res unit the same way that dreadnoughts need a high res unit

    #226862

    NINJEW
    Member

    for some reason i mistakenly thought we were talking about giving node serpent more res again

    more hp is ok, i can’t say i particularly care one way or the other on that. node serpents still won’t be tanks with +10 hp

    #226868

    ExNihil
    Member

    For a second there I was thinking I was reading the dairies of Ninjew 🙂

    yes, +10HP Node Serpents, aka Bouh Constrictors.

    Sorry couldn’t help it 🙂

    #226903

    NINJEW
    Member

    every night before i go to bed i rage against sorcerer buffs that haven’t been proposed yet

    #226905

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, to be honest I really wonder why you can’t teleport your units 15 hexes on the strategic map using 10CP spells, it will be so much simpler really. I’m going to make a thread about it.

    #226918

    NINJEW
    Member

    my nightmares have become real

    don’t tell me it’s a full heal too

    #227000

    Hatmage
    Member

    Regarding the discussion of sorcerers and resistance – vanilla sorcerers certainly don’t need it or want it, but it would “match theme” for magicians to be good at countering magic. Which they are to an extent – apprentices have good resistance for their tier and can both dispel and steal enemy spells, and sorcerers themselves aren’t exactly keeling over to vengeful frost either. And for summons, vulnerability to magic is actually appropriate – if they didn’t have it, they wouldn’t be shackled to the will of the summoner in the first place.

    #227018

    llfoso
    Member

    Regarding the discussion of sorcerers and resistance – vanilla sorcerers certainly don’t need it or want it, but it would “match theme” for magicians to be good at countering magic.

    Wouldn’t that make sorc v. sorc a bit boring though? Kind of like the problem with theo v. theo. They’re too good at countering themselves.

    #227140

    Griffith
    Member

    Perhaps its worth noting that sorcerer is the only class which doesnt have buildable t3 or t4 unit. All other classes have at least buildable t3 unit, so this brings sorcerer to an major disadvantage on games that go beyond turn 45 or so. (because of fighting with mostly t2 against t3 wont end well usually)

    Granted, sorcerer has very good tier2, especially after school of enchantment is researched. Also sorcerer has some spells that mitigate the disadvantage at lategame. But some of those spells seem too lame to use (namely mass stasis).

    So I would rather nerf mass stasis, and then perhaps giving sorcerer a better t3 summon at least wouldnt seem an unbalancing move?

    #227143

    ExNihil
    Member

    I doubt the devs will introduce any major change at this point rly

    #227157

    I was thinking, maybe the fact that once you get Serpents, you aren’t far from Horrors, is a factor here?

    imho, most classes suffer from this to a degree, but arguably there is enough of a difference between

    Exalted–> Shrines
    Warbreeds–>Manticores

    etc to justify it.

    Thoughts?

    #227159

    Zaskow
    Member

    I was thinking, maybe the fact that once you get Serpents, you aren’t far from Horrors, is a factor here?

    Yes. When you compare Serpent vs. Horror it’s more profitable to summon Horror, because they are far better in melee, due Fearsome.

    Warbreeds–>Manticores

    Honestly, in my current game I got Manticores in 7 turns after Warbreed. Will I build Warbreeds in this case is interesting question…

    #227168

    Honestly, in my current game I got Manticores in 7 turns after Warbreed. Will I build Warbreeds in this case is interesting question…

    I also think it is an interesting question, because I think regrowth is amazing, as it allows me to cover 72/4 hexes (or 3 if all on roads) in a single turn combined with death march, and then they heal straight away.

    However, Manticores fly and hit very hard and are better priest Killers, whereas warbreeds are vulnerable to elements.

    For me it is an interesting question.

    Why so for you?

    And how to apply that to Node Serpents?

    #227175

    Zaskow
    Member

    And how to apply that to Node Serpents?

    With science upgrades Sorc can go to Horror from Serpents sooner even considering bigger price of Horror tech than Warlord to Manticores from Warbreeds.

    However, Warlord can choose what to build – Warbreeds or Manticores or even build both, while Sorc MUST choose something one.

    #227276

    So, you didn’t say what you would change to make it a more interesting choice…

    Same question for all.

    #227290

    Griffith
    Member

    Now that I think of it, I suppose there is a choice whether to get node serpent early, cause of its relatively low research cost. I personally cant recall ever going that route, cause I prioritize school of enchantment, but there is a choice there. (and generally I dont have enough mana in early game to consider that)

    Say if school of enchantment was nerfed, or node serpent slightly boosted, the choice could be even more interesting. Same goes for fantastic creature actually, I think that spell is less good in cost / effectiveness ratio atm.

    As for node serpent vs. horror, you obviously go for horrors 90% of the time. Hard to say how differentiate it more, unless a different unit is made altogether. Perhaps if its base movement was 36, they would be more attractive, as they could usually match the speed of your heroes. And perhaps put phase to medal reward then, so they wouldnt suicide on autocombat so easy?

    #227300

    Does anyone recall what electric skin does?

    #227310

    I think you could do multi phase on medal. That would encourage massing and give them more than a fire and forget mode.

    #227311

    Bob5
    Member

    Does anyone recall what electric skin does?

    If I recall correctly it does shock damage to enemies attacking you in melee.

    I think you could do multi phase on medal. That would encourage massing and give them more than a fire and forget mode.

    You mean Phase on cooldown like Unicorn Riders?

    #227322

    @bob. Yep.

    #227325

    ExNihil
    Member

    I was thinking, maybe the fact that once you get Serpents, you aren’t far from Horrors, is a factor here?

    Already covered this in the thread earlier.

    Anyhow, OFC and not really at the same time. Socerer has too much of a tech advantage to stop at node serpents and the price of node serpents is too high to go for before you have substantial research – which mean by the time you can get them, you continue for horrors directly. The thing is that Sorcerer can produce only a single unit at a time, always, on the summoning channel, and the problem here is what this unit brings to the table. Horrors bring a lot more for x2 time the mana then node serpents do, so they are more worth while the investment, simple.

    If node serpents are buffed I might consider producing them instead of horrors but I might not, if they are replaced with watchers and the CP and RP prices are tweaked as discussed in the relevant sections this will have impacts as discussed [see the relevent posts two or three pages back].

    However, Manticores fly and hit very hard and are better priest Killers, whereas warbreeds are vulnerable to elements.

    Not completely comparable here – you can produce WL units in multiple locations. AND, there is a very big difference here, Manticore Riders receive the training regimen discount and the thoroughbred + matrial arts training bonuses whereby the warbreed receives nothing, in my book its a no brainer at all really.

    You mean Phase on cooldown like Unicorn Riders?

    I proposed this a year ago and was booed off stage to the sound of OP shouts from every direction. But this won’t help the Node Serpent survived AC I’m afraid, and it will make Sorcerer OP – with this I must agree, which will necessitate a serious increase in CP / RP costs, which without a serious HP buff as well will be a problem. Then again, if this comes on top of the HP buff, I give my +1 for this 🙂

    #227335

    Bob5
    Member

    I agree with Ex, I think Node Serpents suffer mainly in autocombat. The AI simply doesn’t know how to combine Sprint and Phase to reach targets it can’t reach with either alone, and it also doesn’t use either one of those abilities to get a Node Serpent out of trouble if it’s threatened to a group of friendly apprentices for healing (especially useful in sieges to quickly get back to the other side of the wall where enemies aren’t likely to chase you).

    But correct me if I’m wrong, but reading your comments it seems to me that you think Node Serpents not so much as underpowered, but more simply outclassed by Horrors, which is accentuated by them both being summons running on the same channel, increasing competition between them, and Sorcs researching fast. Would it be possible to simply increase the RP cost of Horrors to move them a bit further apart?

    #227336

    This is going to sound radical, and I haven’t thought through all the balance permutations, but if Succubi can be built in cities then there is a lore justification for Node Serpents. Attach it to a Sorc building, make that building relatively pricey, and now with the investment, you can build Node Serpents, and summon Horrors.

    Probably something for a mod test.

    #227355

    llfoso
    Member

    Why not just raise the research and production costs of all t4s a bit?

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