Opinions on Path of XXX?

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Opinions on Path of XXX?

This topic contains 37 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by  louff4 4 years, 8 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 38 total)
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  • #189111

    So I’ve seen people brought up the topic on how path of XXX can screw up the tile set up of any given city. Personally I never encountered such problem being a dreadnought and all until recently I was able to get my hands on some nymph. I was able to seduce 2(!) fallen angles, but I notice they have path of decay on elite, which proved to be a problem when they reached it. It wasn’t too bad for my cities due to suppress nature, but the stack the angel was with suffered terrain penalty and it messed up the cities I conquered. Personally I would’ve preferred if the path of XXX ability is able to be toggled on or off.
    I know other people face similar problems, the closest thread I can remember was someone getting a secret spell to summon obsidian dragons (which also have path of decay on elite). So I’m curious on your opinions.

    #189133

    Eomolch
    Member

    All I can say is, if you ally yourself with a fallen angel you should keep in mind the possible consequences 😉

    Imho the path abilities are awesome. Depending on which class/race combo you play you have to use them more careful or not which isn’t a bad thing – on the contrary it makes them a lot more interesting than most other abilities.

    Not to mention they are just so much fun to use … 😛

    #189156

    The conflicting feeling of discarding tier 4 units before turn 30 :s

    #189185

    Eomolch
    Member

    You don’t have to discard them. You can either let them form a separate stack which moves along with your main stack (in a way that your main stack won’t stand on the blight terrain) or use them as a mobile force to terrorize your enemies cities / take weak defended cities by surprise 🙂

    #189275

    Brandon_354
    Member

    I’m always disappointed to see an otherwise great unit get screwed over by getting path of x instead of a worthwhile ability at gold. The ability offers little and can even be detrimental at times. I’d prefer path of x be replaced with an ability that affects an aoe like cleanse the land, or even better yet, replace it completely with an actually useful ability

    I’m sure someone would like to barge in and say, “but path of x can place you on terrain you aren’t bad with!”, but ultimately that depends on the unit/race combo and can actually do the exact opposite if you aren’t careful and you might be helping your enemies instead should they be ok with the terrain.

    #189279

    Mythabril
    Member

    Maybe making it an activated ability like road building would be more appealing.

    #189297

    zeelilus
    Member

    An ability that doesn’t blanket help every race/class combo and takes some measure of planning to use well? Say it ain’t so 😛

    #189302

    Ravenholme
    Member

    An ability that doesn’t blanket help every race/class combo and takes some measure of planning to use well? Say it ain’t so :P

    Agreed, making it some kind of toggle-able ability would somewhat defeat the point, in my opinion.

    #189309

    Brandon_354
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>zeelilus wrote:</div>
    An ability that doesn’t blanket help every race/class combo and takes some measure of planning to use well? Say it ain’t so :P

    Agreed, making it some kind of toggle-able ability would somewhat defeat the point, in my opinion.

    Defeat the point of harming you as your gold medal? I don’t know…I think we see medals differently. At least toggleable it would be useless instead of detrimental.

    If path of x made it so that all in the stack don’t hate said terrain and perhaps they even get a small (maybe 100) happiness bonus on it along with being toggleable it would be more useful.

    #189318

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Well, this is how Path of X abilities have always worked and I would rather like them to continue to work this way – Where they actually require forethought and strategy to use, rather than being an automatic “I win the climate game, confusion to my enemies” button.

    #189319

    Brandon_354
    Member

    Well, this is how Path of X abilities have always worked and I would rather like them to continue to work this way – Where they actually require forethought and strategy to use, rather than being an automatic “I win the climate game, confusion to my enemies” button.

    It may have worked that way before, but that doesn’t mean it still should. Bad at first doesn’t necessarily equal good over time. I shouldn’t have to dread getting my unit to gold medal because I know I will be punished for it. That isn’t strategy or forethought, that is outright stupid. It isn’t as if i can chose to cap the unit at silver and never advance to gold short of disbanding it and getting a new one. It is also far from an I win the climate game button, just try to compete with an empire changing spell, or if you are trying to use it on your enemies terrain I doubt they are going to quietly sit back and let you wreck their terrain.

    toggling is 100% within reason and needed for this to be worthwhile as a friendly buff. As it is now it feels more like something i would cast on an enemy stack. I cast path of decay on your stack and now you A. cant move any of your units, or B. move and destroy your own terrain/ fight and move in terrain you hate, especially should you split up that stack afterward i cast it and have multiple units spreading it.

    #189321

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Again, I disagree, because that way a Path of X ability becomes a surefire strategy for yourself – The whole point of them is that without forethought it is a sword that cuts both ways. You can use it to really screw up your enemies day by spreading terrain they hate, but if you don’t have the appropriate races (or Hearts of X) yourself, it can just as easily screw up your day. Taking that away eliminates part of what makes them such a tricky and interesting tool.

    #189323

    Brandon_354
    Member

    Again, I disagree, because that way a Path of X ability becomes a surefire strategy for yourself – The whole point of them is that without forethought it is a sword that cuts both ways. You can use it to really screw up your enemies day by spreading terrain they hate, but if you don’t have the appropriate races (or Hearts of X) yourself, it can just as easily screw up your day. Taking that away eliminates part of what makes them such a tricky and interesting tool.

    It isn’t interesting or cool to be punished for nurturing a unit to gold. If you are that against toggleable paths then at least give units who get gold an option between path of x as their gold or a different ability.

    #189324

    Brandon_354
    Member

    Again, I disagree, because that way a Path of X ability becomes a surefire strategy for yourself – The whole point of them is that without forethought it is a sword that cuts both ways. You can use it to really screw up your enemies day by spreading terrain they hate, but if you don’t have the appropriate races (or Hearts of X) yourself, it can just as easily screw up your day. Taking that away eliminates part of what makes them such a tricky and interesting tool.

    It isn’t interesting or cool to be punished for nurturing a unit to gold. If you are that against toggleable paths then at least give units who get gold an option between path of x as their gold or a different ability. Having said that though i don’t see it happening as that would probably require a decent amount of coding to make a new screen asking which upgrade you would like for a particular unit.

    #189350

    Epaminondas
    Member

    I’m always disappointed to see an otherwise great unit get screwed over by getting path of x instead of a worthwhile ability at gold. The ability offers little and can even be detrimental at times. I’d prefer path of x be replaced with an ability that affects an aoe like cleanse the land, or even better yet, replace it completely with an actually useful ability

    I’m sure someone would like to barge in and say, “but path of x can place you on terrain you aren’t bad with!”, but ultimately that depends on the unit/race combo and can actually do the exact opposite if you aren’t careful and you might be helping your enemies instead should they be ok with the terrain.

    Agreed.

    #189354

    I would be fine with automatic paths-of-whatever, -if- were inherent to a unit rather than suddenly appearing on level-up.

    If an angel or something always had the path of decay, it would be an informed choice on my part to either use the unit carefully, or discard it. But having the unit be fine until it levels and -then- getting this complication… I’m with Brandon, that’s not strategic or interesting or cool at all.

    Would the paths being available from the get-go cause big balance problems? If not, my preferred solution would be to grant path abilities automatically and give these units a gold-medal ability that’s helpful for all players.

    #189359

    Fenraellis
    Member

    It wasn’t too bad for my cities due to suppress nature, but the stack the angel was with suffered terrain penalty and it messed up the cities I conquered.

    Suppress Nature applies to all of your cities and units, so it shouldn’t have mattered as a Dreadnought more so than any class except for a Necromancer. Suppress Nature doesn’t apply to Vassals, true, so if you were turning the conquered cities into Vassals, then… that’s just how it is. The spell description explicitly excludes Vassals.

    #189377

    ESCL
    Member

    I’d say it’s only really a problem on the Fallen Angel since this unit is quite central for a Shadowborn player and they don’t necessarily benefit from blight terrain – it can even be hurtful and limit your options on how you use the unit. The Arch Angel’s Path of Life has it’s drawbacks but no race dislikes temperate terrain so you you’re only hurt by it replacing more favourable terrain with trees. Haven’t really tried it enough to judge it properly – but it seems the Fallen Angel is a bit too constricting for most races and classes.

    On the Yeti and Obsidian Dragon I don’t really see a reason to complain, they are both quite rare and if you decide to use them you have to plan around that. My point here being that they are seldom a key unit for your strategy and if you depend on them as a part of your main armies you only have yourself to blame. For the Reaper there are no drawbacks since Ghouled units and cities don’t care about terrain.

    #189440

    zeelilus
    Member

    If you’re worried about spending all that time to get a gold medal unit with a skill you don’t like, don’t spend all that time to level up that unit.
    Obsidian dragons are kinda giant reptiles of blight. Are you telling me you can’t see ANY downside to raising one and letting it live alongside your populace? I’m sure your soldiers LOVE going into battle alongside a giant blight breather monster.

    Should we make it so disgusting stench can be turned off next?

    #189441

    Brandon_354
    Member

    If you’re worried about spending all that time to get a gold medal unit with a skill you don’t like, don’t spend all that time to level up that unit.<br>
    Obsidian dragons are kinda giant reptiles of blight. Are you telling me you can’t see ANY downside to raising one and letting it live alongside your populace? I’m sure your soldiers LOVE going into battle alongside a giant blight breather monster.

    Should we make it so disgusting stench can be turned off next?

    Disgusting stench comes from goblins who are themselves immune so their is no antisynergy therefore your analogy is false, also worth noting is they have it inherently. The same applies to frostlings and exposed.

    #189582

    zeelilus
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>zeelilus wrote:</div>
    If you’re worried about spending all that time to get a gold medal unit with a skill you don’t like, don’t spend all that time to level up that unit.<br><br>
    Obsidian dragons are kinda giant reptiles of blight. Are you telling me you can’t see ANY downside to raising one and letting it live alongside your populace? I’m sure your soldiers LOVE going into battle alongside a giant blight breather monster.

    Should we make it so disgusting stench can be turned off next?

    Disgusting stench comes from goblins who are themselves immune so their is no antisynergy therefore your analogy is false, also worth noting is they have it inherently. The same applies to frostlings and exposed.

    Oh, so the units with trail of blight suffer from blight terrain penalties? My bad.

    Sarcasm aside, if you try and use goblin alongside another race, stench can be a problem. Same goes with these path skills.
    You either work with or around the path, or don’t use the unit. Asking for a re-balance around a cool mechanic is just plain close minded.

    #189585

    Nerdfish
    Member

    Path of XXX is awesome, as long as it’s legal.
    That said, if you have any domain power on, it hardly makes any difference.

    #189588

    syntax_vi
    Member

    I dont like the path xxx abilities the way they are implemented, and especially the fallen angel with shadowborn mastery, as any race can pick this and get pretty screwed over by it.

    Plus it just makes an awful mess all over the map. Obsidian dragons with full stealth capabilities and a path of decay is also an odd choice.

    #189596

    M0rr1d1n
    Member

    My vote is keep it as it is, not everything can be changed to suit everyone and this doesn’t need to be to begin with, in my eyes.

    #189602

    Brandon_354
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Brandon_354 wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>zeelilus wrote:</div><br>
    If you’re worried about spending all that time to get a gold medal unit with a skill you don’t like, don’t spend all that time to level up that unit.<br><br><br>
    Obsidian dragons are kinda giant reptiles of blight. Are you telling me you can’t see ANY downside to raising one and letting it live alongside your populace? I’m sure your soldiers LOVE going into battle alongside a giant blight breather monster.

    Should we make it so disgusting stench can be turned off next?

    Disgusting stench comes from goblins who are themselves immune so their is no antisynergy therefore your analogy is false, also worth noting is they have it inherently. The same applies to frostlings and exposed.

    Oh, so the units with trail of blight suffer from blight terrain penalties? My bad.

    Sarcasm aside, if you try and use goblin alongside another race, stench can be a problem. Same goes with these path skills.<br>
    You either work with or around the path, or don’t use the unit. Asking for a re-balance around a cool mechanic is just plain close minded.

    I’ve given clear reasons and all you can say is “it is cool”. It was already decided who won this debate though since you failed to ever provide clear reasons with the exception of laughable arguments such as it was “cool” as already mentioned, and What you call close minded most would call logical, on the contrary YOU are the close minded one who objects to the idea of anyone balancing a mechanic that you don’t run into due to your race/class combination. Something that is going to be detrimental the majority of the time being used as an “upgrade” (the gold one at that) is absurd, even worse is your unwillingness to accept toggling on it so that those who don’t want it don’t have to deal with it since it wasn’t inherent anyway and was meant to give the unit value, not make you want to disband it.

    You are crying about people actually wanting their gold medal to be useful (or if nothing else not detrimental) and screaming, NO they should have to deal with their unit being nerfed at gold!!!

    #189607

    thabob79
    Member

    I really think you should put them on/off

    #189609

    Brandon_354
    Member

    I really think you should put them on/off

    The problem is that there is even fierce resistance to this idea. I could see opposition to completely changing it into a new ability since some may like the path of xxx abilities…but I can’t understand the opposition to toggling.

    #189624

    zeelilus
    Member

    I’ve given clear reasons and all you can say is “it is cool”. It was already decided who won this debate though since you failed to ever provide clear reasons with the exception of laughable arguments such as it was “cool” as already mentioned, and What you call close minded most would call logical, on the contrary YOU are the close minded one who objects to the idea of anyone balancing a mechanic that you don’t run into due to your race/class combination. Something that is going to be detrimental the majority of the time being used as an “upgrade” (the gold one at that) is absurd, even worse is your unwillingness to accept toggling on it so that those who don’t want it don’t have to deal with it since it wasn’t inherent anyway and was meant to give the unit value, not make you want to disband it.

    You are crying about people actually wanting their gold medal to be useful (or if nothing else not detrimental) and screaming, NO they should have to deal with their unit being nerfed at gold!!!

    It’s not a nerf, it is useful to some units. You want it to be useful to all units, class, race or otherwise. Right now it’s only useful to goblins, destruction master spheres, machines, elementals, undead, and any class that can negate negative penalties.
    I’m sorry that it’s so exceedingly hard to make use of, but it’s ADVANTAGE is that it screws units over that are unable to cope with it. If your army is made of something that can’t cope with it you have to ask why you’re using it.
    It is currently a fully functional and USEFUL mechanic. It doesn’t need an easy switch of “I can’t be bothered to play around terrain penalties, easy switch plz”.
    There’s tons of abilities that can backfire.
    Explosive death is another one. Should we never use dreadnaught scouts because they die and can’t be reconstructed?
    The trail XXX can be EASILY avoided and almost as easily used to your advantage. If you’re stacking halfings with your gold medal dragon…well…sorry that isn’t working out for you.

    #189664

    Eomolch
    Member

    It’s not a nerf, it is useful to some units. You want it to be useful to all units, class, race or otherwise. Right now it’s only useful to goblins, destruction master spheres, machines, elementals, undead, and any class that can negate negative penalties. I’m sorry that it’s so exceedingly hard to make use of, but it’s ADVANTAGE is that it screws units over that are unable to cope with it. If your army is made of something that can’t cope with it you have to ask why you’re using it.<br>
    It is currently a fully functional and USEFUL mechanic. It doesn’t need an easy switch of “I can’t be bothered to play around terrain penalties, easy switch plz”.<br>
    There’s tons of abilities that can backfire.<br>
    Explosive death is another one. Should we never use dreadnaught scouts because they die and can’t be reconstructed?<br>
    The trail XXX can be EASILY avoided and almost as easily used to your advantage. If you’re stacking halfings with your gold medal dragon…well…sorry that isn’t working out for you.

    Basically this!

    Making the path abilities toggle-able could only make them less interesting. Also, the reason why units aqquire path abilities only on gold is that the effect otherwise would be too strong (in aow2/SM units could start with them since terrain didn’t have such a high impact).

    If anything I’d like path abilities to have a 1 hex radius again, so I can walk over water with my yetis again 😛 (hm .. anyone tested yet what happens if you embark gold medal yetis?)

    #189666

    Gloweye
    Member

    (hm .. anyone tested yet what happens if you embark gold medal yetis?)

    Nope, but a Gold Angel flying over water will do nothing. They don’t work in subterranean either.

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