ORC Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions ORC Balance Discussion

This topic contains 59 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  Gloweye 7 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #113195

    ExNihil
    Member

    OK Guys,

    Due to repeated public demand I am separating my Races and Classes thread into separate topics. I hope you will all participate :). My original idea was to discuss Races and Classes together in a way that could highlight the balance relations between them. I will try to inter-connect the different threads in a way that will do that, but I’m afraid there is no really good way to do it in a forum.

    Race Threads:

    ORC Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/orc-balance-discussion/

    GOBLIN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/goblin-balance-discussion/

    HUMAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/human-balance-discussion/

    HIGH-ELF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/high-elf-balance-discussion/

    DRACONIAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/draconian-balance-discussion/

    DWARF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwarf-balance-discussion/

    Class Threads:

    ROGUE Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rogue-balance-discussion/

    SORCERER Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/sorcerer-balance-discussion/

    THEOCRAT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/theocrat-balance-discussion/

    DREADNOUGHT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dreadnought-balance-discussion/

    ARCHDRUID Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/archdruid-balance-discussion/

    WARLORD Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/warlord-balance-discussion/

    Topical Threads:

    Random Map Generator, Underground and Map Elements Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rmg-ug-and-map-elements-balance-discussion/

    Blight, Spirit, Machines and Theocrat: Some Community Questions: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/blight-spirit-machines-and-theo-some-community-questions/

    Dwellings, Taverns and Bandits!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwellings-taverns-and-bandits/

    AI and Auto-Combat Balance Discussion (SP and MP): http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/auto-combat-balance-discussion/

    Support Units Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/support-units-balance-discussion/

    Leader/Heroes Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/leaderheroes-balance-discussion/

    Heal and Sustain Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/the-heal-or-sustain-issue/

    Assorted Topics Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/asorted-topics-balance-discussion/

    Misc. Threads:
    Ballista!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/ballista/ (<– This is a unit suggestion rather than a balance discussion)

    And of course the original monster:

    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rebalance-of-existing-elements-in-next-patch/

    #113196

    ExNihil
    Member

    ORCS

    Current Issues:

    1. The Racial traits of Orcs, i.e. +20% blight resistance, +5hp, -1 resistance, +1 melee, -1 ranged, night vision, while seemingly balanced in comparison with other races is actually quite broken. The +5hp is in effect a honey-trap as the -1 resistance translates into high incurred damage and also makes the Orcs extremely susceptible to mind control and other anti-unit effects – this in fact scales and the malus becomes increasingly more effective as the game progresses while the hp buff becomes increasingly less significant. The Damage Formula is 10 + attack strength – defense of unit +-20% +-damage type resistance. Therefore -1 resistance translates to 1 point of damage incurred per attack using resistance: all elemental and magical attacks in game. It will take exactly five attacks to negate the 5hp bonus completely. Add to this the fact that every resistance point equals a 5% percent modifier in resistance checks vs. spells and abilities, which makes Orcs more vulnerable to all mind control and unit inhibiting effects from other units and monsters (fearsome, blind, convert and so forth). This will become worse once the new dispel mechanism is implemented as removing these effects will become much harder. I understand this is part of the concept of Orcs – the ‘anti-magic race’, but due to the game mechanics and the prevalence of attacks that roll against resistance not to mention the rolls of magical spell, this is a major disadvantage that is no way compensated by the advantages Orcs receive.

    2. I will qoute @bob5‘s post here “Orcs get two racial disadvantages, -1 ranged strength and -1 resistance, while they get three perks: Night vision, +1 Melee strength, and +5HP. All other races only get one racial disadvantage (apart from Humans, they get none), and except for Dwarfs none of those is as crippling, and Dwarfs get Mountaineering, Cave crawling, night vision, +1 defense, +1 resistance, and 20% blight protection to compensate, that’s six perks.” In other words: Orcs are screwed – they get more maluses and less buffs then all the other races and their malus has the most crippling effect. This led @bob5 to assert: “I say they should be buffed, not just replacing the cause of their crippled status with something else that cripples them equally hard.”

    3. A lot has been said about the current meta-game of supports (Orc Priests). Whatever changes will occur to this Meta, and we will probably be seeing the temple becoming the structure from which these units are built pushing their appearance slightly later, they will remain a highly significant element of the game. Currently the Orc Priest is a bad support unit due to blight damage being completely negated by machines and against which a high number of units are resistant, and the fact that Throw Curse is effected by the blight resistance of the targeted unit, which makes this ability much less effective.

    4. Some units like the Orc Greatsword have normal resistance stats in comparison to other races while Shock Trooper has -2 Resistance in comparison with other racial t3 units.

    5. Orcs lack healing abilities completely which in combination with their -1 resistance makes creeping very difficult.

    Re-balance Suggestions:

    1. the +5hp bonus should be replaced with a 15% physical resistance – Orcs are extremely tough and can take a lot of pain, this will be a more effective trait that will scale up with units. My calculation is this: at base hp t1 units (hp ranging from 35 to 45) will receive between 5 to 7 hp bonus against physical attacks, t2 units (hp ranging between 40-60) will receive between 6 to 9 and the t3 unit (70 hp) will receive 11 hp. This bonus will scale up as the units level. Thus a t1 unit on gold medal, with approximately 50hp will receive an additional 8 hp against physical attacks, a cavalry unit on gold and 70hp will receive 10-11 hp and a t3 on 100 will receive 15hp. Since this is a single resistance channel this will make Orcs extremely effective in melee against mostly physical damage units, but less so against those that deal elemental damage and so forth. This is only fitting I think. It will also make Orcs much more alluring for some classes that atm have no advantage in taking them, for instance Rogues which use primarily melee based unit or Dreads with leader/heros that can get an extra 20% physical resistance.

    2 and 5. I liked a suggestion @bloodybattlebrain had: give orc a new trait – upon winning a battle they will receive fast healing for 2 turns, that is +6 regen a turn for 2 turn.

    3. I have posted in some-length regarding the need to change the resistance of machines from 100% blight to 40-60% blight. Blight should be considered as the elemental manifestation of entropy rather than “poison” and I assume Orc Priests don’t throw poisonous mud at their opponents and thus their attack’s name should be changed. Curse should definitely not be rolled against blight resistance but against resistance alone – Machines shouldn’t be immune as there are operators inside them and this is a form of magic that can degrade machinery and corrupt the magical constructions of the Dread.

    4. The Shock Trooper should receive back its missing resistance point and the Orc Great-sword lose one.

    #113211

    Regarding rebalance:

    1. Orcs should get maybe a max of 10% physical protection. Protection is huge, and protection against the most common element, when noone else has it, is even more so.

    2. It wasn’t my idea but I liked it because it affected a key weakness of Orcs (lack of strategic regeneration) in what I thought was a very Orcy fashion – the more you kill the more you heal. + 6 regeneration for one turn only, so if you want to keep healing, you need to keep fighting. Also addresses #5.

    3. I disagree with the need to change blight to something other than it currently is, or to change the resistances machines have. Not every race or attack or class or unit is supposed to be good at everything. Machines have very clear advantages and disadvantages, and one of those advantages is that they are the perfect counter for blight and spirit dependent attacks. Machines are very unique in this. If you are an Orc and you find your opponent is using machines, get more Cavalry, summon more, get your own machines. Storm sisters, ForgePriests and Elders are useful against machines but it doesn’t follow that every Support needs to be useful against the same things, or that they all need to have a healing capacity…Also, I think throw curse needs to be mentioned. If it works, it is awesome, if it doesn’t it is still awesome. 2 failed throw curses will shut down an enemy unit’s movement quite nicely. No mp means to retaliations, so if you have a bruiser unit located near it…

    Lastly, attacks go against the machine, not the crew. For better or worse that is just the way it is and I doubt that will be changing any time soon.

    Ofcourse you can say that a ram shouldn’t be smashing around a bunch of Goblins, but imo a Ram shouldn’t be able to attack humanoid enemies either. I did propose that wallcrushing units be changed, so that their normal attacks deal like 4 damage to units, but that the “wallcrusher” trait adds like 20 damage if against walls. Trebuchets shouldn’t be hitting units as accurately and as hard as they do and neither should Rams. I would say change that, rather than start removing various protections just so Orcs and Goblins can hurt machines easier.

    4. Add resistance to a Shocktrooper and watch as he destroys everything. I’d be very very careful here, and if you give this guy 10% physical protection, then that resistance is going to be his only weakness, and there are battlefield buffs for this sort of thing.

    #113293

    ExNihil
    Member

    1. I disagree, I have run the numbers and 10% (which was the number I originally posted in the Orc Balance Suggestion thread) will give between 3-5 hp bonus against physical attack at baseline for t1s, 4 and 5 for the t2s and 7 for t3 and at gold medal this will add +1 point for t1s, +2 points for t2s and +3 points for t3, thus a Shock Trooper at gold has 100hp and 110 effective against physical, a black knight 72 and 79 respectively and an impaler 57 and 63. If you factor in the fact that Orcs have -1 resistance and that now Orcs do not have +5 against elemental and magical attacks this buff seems rather low and in fact the situation of Orcs would probably be worse off then before in most circumstance. You are correct that physical is the most common type of damage in game, but it is not more common then all other elements combined. The proposal to give 15% assumes an asymmetrical play-style that favors melee over ranged and will allow Orcs a lot of close range punishment at the expanse of their weakness in other quarters.

    2. I think a 2 turn accelerated healing after combat is necessary. “+ 6 regeneration for one turn only, so if you want to keep healing, you need to keep fighting.” well this is absurd – if your army is seriously damaged +6 regeneration x 1 will not allow you to keep fighting quite fast enough for this bonus to be accumulated.

    3. I will post on blight and machines separately so we can properly discuss this. I do agree with you regarding Curse – I rethought my initial position and if Blight is balanced it should remain a vs. blight resistance roll.

    4. This is no argument – the Shock Trooper is missing 1 resistance point with no apparent reason. It is one thing to have a racial -1 on all units, it is another to have -2 on your t3 with no apparent reason (-1 is racial and the other is… well like its missing 5 HP that were restored in 1.300 beta, a mishap.)

    #113309

    Well the logic behind the post battle heal is that it is adrenaline. Adrenaline doesn’t last very long…Also, extra healing over 2 turns is, imo, the “absurb” thing here and would be imba imo. Because all you’d need is to gang up on a mine and then relax for 2 turns and you have + 24 hp total. One turn is for me the best.

    So, you’re proposing that the Shock trooper have 10 resistance, not 9?

    iirc, this was deliberately done because the Trooper is an absolute killing machine. raisng it by a point would still keep it killing though, so I’d be happy with that.

    #113359

    Leon Feargus
    Member

    I think the structure of this thread leaves room for improvement, point 1 and 2 seem to overlap, with point 4 adding to it. So I will seperate the issues into:
    1) The low resistance of orcs
    2) The lack of positive traits compared to negative
    3) The lackluster support unit
    4) The Lack of healing

    1) Low resistance is their trait. It is one of the characteristics that defines them. It should remain. There is a point to be made about the …

    The Shock Trooper should receive back its missing resistance point and the Orc Great-sword lose one.

    But this is a good counter argument as well …

    Add resistance to a Shocktrooper and watch as he destroys everything. I’d be very very careful here, and if you give this guy 10% physical protection, then that resistance is going to be his only weakness, and there are battlefield buffs for this sort of thing.

    So all in all, I would say: Leave this as it is.

    2) This is the part where orcs can get their fill. I like the idea of physical protection for orcs. 10% will be enough, let’s not exaggerate. Additionally, I would like to see some extra physical damage on medals. I would also give them Life Stealing as a racial trait, their history (aowIISM) makes good for it.

    3) The support unit is not the best one around, but this also fits the theme of brawlers. Throw curse, as you have come to agree, is definitely a good ability. Against machines you will need to employ some goblins who needed the trait more than orcs did.

    4) There are only 2 racial supports with healing abilities with draconians not needing it because of their fast healing trait. This indeed seems unfair for the other 3. The ‘Thrill of Battle’ idea sounds nice but I think it is not necessary to introduce a new skill for this. I feel Life Stealing would be an adequate solution for this issue.

    #113360

    ExNihil
    Member

    Fair enough regarding the heal. And yes, +1 point to reach racial baseline level.

    #113381

    Ericridge
    Member

    I’ve said it before, and so I’ll say it again, Orc Shocktrooper is perfectly fine. Its such an magnificent killing machine. Its resistance is basically the only weakpoint it have.

    Just deploy the shocktroopers against correct opponents and laugh.

    #113403

    Brutal_Felix
    Member

    I propose a new Racial Ability that helps Orcs while still retaining their flavor.

    Blood Thrist- When this units health drops to less than 50% it gains First Strike, 3 Melee Strength and Martial Arts.

    Its still in the vein of Adrenaline, but heal makes no sense, Orcs arent Wolverine 😛

    #113404

    vota dc
    Member

    I don’t know how exactly physical protection work. For example againt a troops with 10 damage should just be like +1 defense?

    Orc Scoundrel at gold instead of 50 HP would have 49 or 52 but only 45 against elemental.
    Orc Manticore at gold instead of 145 HP would have 140 against elemental but 160 HP or 167 against regular attacks.

    This on the paper, but I guess minimum damage will be still 1-2, also to reach -2 damage reduction you need a very high attack I guess.

    #113420

    ExNihil
    Member

    @everyone,

    I suggest you read in the Dwarfs thread @vota dc’s post which discusses some of the traits of the Shock Trooper in relation to the first born.

    As for the rest of it:

    Ok, there seems to be some confusion here. The Orc Shock Trooper has currently 13 defense and 9 resistance in comparison the other t3 units have: 14/12 (First Born), 12/12 (Gryphon Rider), 12/11 (Flyer), 13/11 (Human Knight) and 12/11 (Big-Beetle). Based on these states the baseline racial t3 is 12/11 for units without the Armored trait and 13/11 for those with it. Therefore with the racial -1 resistance the Shock Trooper should have 13/10 rather then 13/9 – this looks like a mishap, which wouldn’t be surprising. In version 1.202 the Shock Trooper also has 70hp, like Knight and First-Born and the extra +5hp are missing. This was fixed in version 1.300 beta where it has 75hp, and I must admit I havn’t check to see if the resistance has been restored as well but it definitely should be.

    Regarding 10% or 15% physical protection – I have run the numbers, aside from 10% sounding intuitivly right I see no argument against the 15% that has considered my calculations. Please refer to these in you opposition to the idea because I think the reason should be empirical. 15% translates to a bonus that does what the 5hp were supposed to while balancing the increased vulnerability to magic that is incurred by transitioning to this resistance type. In other words -Orcs will be stronger on the physical level but weaker on all the others and if it will be set to 10% the bonus wouldn’t be sufficiently significant to justify this transition IMO (see the numbers in my original post and reply to BBB).

    @leon Feargus

    4) There are only 2 racial supports with healing abilities with draconians not needing it because of their fast healing trait. This indeed seems unfair for the other 3. The ‘Thrill of Battle’ idea sounds nice but I think it is not necessary to introduce a new skill for this. I feel Life Stealing would be an adequate solution for this issue.

    Life stealing will be extremely OP. Whereby other races need healing in battle the Orcs would be able to restore their health while battering their opponents to a pulp. The Thrill of Battle ability suggested (good name!) will only give short term after battle regeneration and no active heal in battle which is much more minor but will make Orcs more effective on the strategic map.

    @brutal_felix,
    Well this idea is grossly OP 🙂 see what I wrote to Leon above – making Orcs meaner killing machines will not solve the heal problem at all.

    @ericridge,
    I appreciate your participation but “I’ve said it before, and so I’ll say it again, Orc Shocktrooper is perfectly fine” is not a particularly convincing argument.

    @vota dc,
    yes 10% resist will remove 1 from an attack of 10. There s always damage in every attack unless the defending unit is immune, in which case no attack is possible.

    #113422

    Brutal_Felix
    Member

    I wouldnt say grossly OP but a real Buff to say the least 😀

    would have no real beneficial combination with Dread, Sorc, Druid or Theo

    Would make them the best Warlord Race (Which they should be and Warlord needs help anyway) and would give a Rogue a good Race for it. (Rogue needs help too)

    The ability would only matter in wounded melee situations..

    #113426

    Hp acts as your store of life before you die.

    Defence affects how much damage you take.

    Changing one affects the other.

    Adding in physical resistance would be the same as adding in hp, because it mitigates the damage done, whereas hp increases the damage capacity.

    10% physical resistance means 10% less damage after the high orc defences do their bit. It’s much more valuable than the current 5 hp bonus.

    For example, a Flier attacks with 16 damage against the Orcs 13 defence, which works out at:

    (10+16)-(13) =/- 20% (rounded up) which is 12-14 damage.

    Assume 3 hits on the Orc, that would normally be 36-42 damage.

    Now apply your 10% physical protection, and that becomes 11-12 damage, or 33-36 damage.

    That’s a minimum 3 hp saved against a T3 that is built for attacking (upto 9hp as 42 is the usual upper max) in one round. In the 2nd round, that 10% protection has easily outstripped the + 5 hp.

    Considering that Shocktroopers would now start with 70 hp, it would take the Flier 6 attacks to hit at full damage, but now bear in mind that the Shocktrooper will be doing

    (20+17) -(12) =/- 20% = 23-27 damage, and you see how that extra hp means he survives long enough to possibly take down 2 Fliers.

    Ontop of that, there are status effects that check against defence, such as Entangle and Trap, so adding on an extra 10% physical resistance translates, if I’m not wrong, into a greater chance to avoid those attacks.

    Basically, at 10% it’s a very powerful ability that provides a good edge, and imo 15% tips off that edge.

    Also, I quite like Brutalfelix’s thinking, if not the particulars. Instead of making Orcs heal better, why not double up and make them stupidly hard in melee?

    Basically, I think some of these races are supposed to be very strong at one thing but have a glaring weakness. Now whether or not that weakness is “enough” is up for debate, but I’d be wary of giving races more similarity than they already have, although I do think Thrill of Battle is just a badass idea.

    #113465

    ExNihil
    Member

    Nice and correct calculations but they disregard the fact that Orcs are ultra vulnerable to magic and elemental damage and now have 5 hp less from which these attacks can detract. Lets look at the numbers based on the current hp of Orcish units -5hp racial bonus:

    t1. Spearman
    HP against resistance channel attacks: 33hp baseline, 43hp at gold.
    HP against physical channel attack 10% res: 36hp baseline, 47hp at gold. Average: 4
    HP against physical channel attack 15% res: 37hp baseline, 49hp at gold. Average: 5

    t1. Razorbow
    HP against resistance channel attacks: 32hp baseline, 42hp at gold.
    HP against physical channel attack 10% res: 35hp baseline, 46hp at gold. Average: 3.5
    HP against physical channel attack 15% res: 36hp baseline, 48hp at gold Average: 5

    t1. Greatsword & Impaler
    HP against resistance channel attacks: 45hp baseline, 55hp at gold
    HP against physical channel attack 10% res: 50hp baseline, 61hp at gold average: 5.5
    HP against physical channel attack 15% res: 52hp baseline, 63hp at gold average: 7.5

    t2. Priest
    HP against resistance channel attacks: 36hp baseline, 56hp at gold
    HP against physical channel attack 10% res: 40hp baseline, 62hp at gold average: 5
    HP against physical channel attack 15% res: 42hp baseline, 64hp at gold average: 7

    t2. Black Knight
    HP against resistance channel attacks: 55hp baseline, 75hp at gold
    HP against physical channel attack 10% res: 61hp baseline, 83hp at gold average: 7
    HP against physical channel attack 15% res: 63hp baseline, 86hp at gold average: 9.5

    t3. Shock Trooper
    HP against resistance channel attacks: 70hp baseline, 100hp at gold
    HP against physical channel attack 10% res: 77hp baseline, 110hp at gold average: 8.5
    HP against physical channel attack 15% res: 81hp at baseline, 115hp at gold average: 12.75

    Average increase for all units at 10%: 5.5hp
    Average increase for all units at 15%: 7.75hp

    As you can see from this data 10% physical resistance equals giving Orcs an average of extra 5.5hp against physical attacks, and 15% physical resistance equals giving them an average of 7.75hp. Considering that in doing either one of these they are also losing 5hp against attacks in the resistance channel, which appears in the above as the first line for every unit, I think the data clearly shows that 10% increase is insufficient. Only if you consider it from the direction of the t3 unit while disregarding the t1 units – which are not less and perhaps even more important in this regard – does 10% looks like a better choice.

    #113470

    Increasing their protection to 15% still keeps them vulnerable to elemental stuff, so are you saying the +10% isn’t enough?

    I think the 10% is enough of a compensation, you disagree!

    Your own data shows that it’d be more than the 5hp lost with the Razorbow and Spearman dragging the average down, the very 2 units that are supposed to be weakest amongst the Orcs (spearmen are unblooded Warriors and Archers are the cowards and weak) lorewise.

    As for the Spearmen, the extra hp serves to make it a better irregular than it was before, giving it that edge over the others (sprinting with throw spear and now damage reduction) and it should be compared to it’s peers as well as analysed in the context of it’s race.

    Lastly, you should be checking just the innate stats imo, not looking at the gold stats. Looking at the gold stats you see that the 10% difference works out even greater than the flat 5hp.

    #113473

    ExNihil
    Member

    I think the 10% is enough of a compensation, you disagree!

    Indeed I do old chap, but it is you who are disagreeing with me ;). The entire idea of this proposal is to attempt and balance out the -1 resistance malus, you forget this IMO and do not consider the fact that Orcs are inherently more vulnerable to magic then other races. The question here is how to compensate for their weakness against magic by making them stronger against physical. If you detract the extra 5hp the only way this will work as a balancing is to tip the scale more sharply in the direction of a physical advantage, hence an increase equal at average to the former buff (+5 hp) is insufficient. I do not see in your retort anything to counter this argument, or perhaps I have misunderstood?

    My data shows that with 10% increase Razorbow and Spearman will have 3.5 points and 4 points above baseline for physical damage putting them even in this category below the +5hp of the former buff. This is of course not factoring in the impact of this on the hp relative to resistance channel attacks.

    EDIT: You are welcome to check the data and bring it to the discussion – I think I have done quite a bit already :).

    #113478

    I have considered the malus, I even mentioned it I believe.

    We’ve both run the numbers and come to the same sums, but the difference is this:

    I think that the extra physical defence, at 10%, is enough to equalise the loss of the 5hp to the elemental attacks.

    You do not.

    You even say it yourself:

    If you detract the extra 5hp the only way this will work as a balancing is to tip the scale more sharply in the direction of a physical advantage, hence an increase equal at average to the former buff (+5 hp) is insufficient.

    Whereas I feel it is sufficient, for reasons already laid out (it scales much better, and it helps against physical check attacks) and that 15% would be too much.

    You’ve already stated your case, I posted a counter to it. I thought I explained it well enough, so I am not sure how you failed to see the counter, when the whole post was the counter…

    #113479

    It also makes things like heal that bit better, because the 20 from heal now effectively becomes 22…

    TL;DR, to save you posting more:

    It’s enough imo.

    It’s not enough in your opinion.

    #113484

    AbednegoJC
    Member

    well… I have just one word against that physical protection:

    It will bring more supports (with their elemental dmg) in the game. Which we dont want to.

    Also I think as soon as supports will be nerfed, orc will gain some edge, because there will be less elemental dmg in the game at all so less dmg effective especially vs orc.

    Also 1 turn fast healing is ok for me, other way u can just creep very easy creep with two stacks and get healing for them… for two turns, it would make basically another draconian race.

    #113485

    vota dc
    Member

    Maybe spearorc unit should have 35 hp instead of 33 in case of removal of the -5 hp.

    #113498

    ExNihil
    Member

    They probably should.

    @BBB,

    Lastly, you should be checking just the innate stats imo, not looking at the gold stats.

    Lets go for the baseline numbers:

    t1. Spearman
    HP against resistance channel attacks: 33hp baseline
    HP against physical channel attack 10% res: 36hp baseline = +3
    HP against physical channel attack 15% res: 37hp baseline = +4

    t1. Razorbow
    HP against resistance channel attacks: 32hp baseline
    HP against physical channel attack 10% res: 35hp baseline = +3
    HP against physical channel attack 15% res: 36hp baseline = +4

    t1. Greatsword & Impaler
    HP against resistance channel attacks: 45hp baseline
    HP against physical channel attack 10% res: 50hp baseline = +5
    HP against physical channel attack 15% res: 52hp baseline = +7

    t2. Priest
    HP against resistance channel attacks: 36hp baseline
    HP against physical channel attack 10% res: 40hp baseline = +4
    HP against physical channel attack 15% res: 42hp baseline = +6

    t2. Black Knight
    HP against resistance channel attacks: 55hp baseline
    HP against physical channel attack 10% res: 61hp baseline = +6
    HP against physical channel attack 15% res: 63hp baseline = +8

    t3. Shock Trooper
    HP against resistance channel attacks: 70hp baseline
    HP against physical channel attack 10% res: 77hp baseline = +7
    HP against physical channel attack 15% res: 81hp at baseline = +11

    Average at baseline value 10%: 4.7
    Average at baseline value 15%: 6.7

    IMO 10% is clearly not enough – you are giving Orc an average HP that is actually lower then the previous buff at baseline level against physical resistance and they remain with a -5 against all other damage types. If you think this is an exchange worth making place tell me why? Because IMO if the choice is between 10% physical resistance or an extra 5hp the choice is clearly the latter. Thus 10% does not solve or mitigate the balancing problem that my proposal is trying to address but only makes it worse.

    #113650

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, I guess this discussion is concluded then 🙂

    #114063

    Draxynnic
    Member

    As the person who did come up with Thrill of Battle, I thought I’d make a few comments on my thought processes there:

    Basically, it’s to encourage orcs to behave like, well, orcs. Orc lore holds that the typical orc tribe sees the orcs as ‘chief bullies in a world of weaklings’. So what do bullies typically enjoy most? Lost of easy fights against weaklings who cannot pose a credible threat in return.

    In my initial pitch, I was more extreme than fast healing after winning a fight – I proposed that orc units heal six hit points after every victorious battle… which means that they get that healing for any further battles that turn, and can continue getting getting that healing multiple times in a turn if they have enough easy battles. The idea is that when orcs fight a series of battles against enemies that don’t really pose any credible threat just don’t sweat whatever incidental wounds they receive in the process – they’re ready and raring to find some more victims. However, if an orc (or orc unit) takes enough of a beating from someone who does stand up to them, the cowardly side of the typical bully kicks in and they need to rest, heal, and build up their courage again just like any other race.

    From a strategic perspective, this would mean orc players tend to have a certain feeling of momentum to them. If they can keep having easy victories, they can move on to have more easily without having to worry about attrition as much as other races. A close battle which leaves several units heavily wounded, however, can rob them of that momentum even if they win the battle, since you can’t risk those heavily wounded units in further battles to trigger Thrill of Battle, and orcs are lacking in ways to quickly recover health when they aren’t fighting.

    That’s the general idea, anyway. It helps to mitigate the lack of strategic healing of orcs, while encouraging orc players to play in a manner that seems in-character for orcs.

    Otherwise… I’ve mentioned elsewhere, but one thing I’d like to see from a lore perspective is orcs getting a little fire and blight resistance, say 20%. Lorewise, orcs currently live with blighted terrain better than anyone except goblins, and it’s been a plot point in the past that orcs resist heat better than humans – which makes it strange that orcs are now possibly the most vulnerable race to both fire and blight. 20% resistance to each would behave similarly to the elf vulnerability to blight – it works with the resistance penalty to mean that in most cases orcs are actually similar to humans in withstanding fire and blight, it’s other nonphysical channels they’re weak against.

    #114069

    I had a question for you guys:

    The weakness of Orcs in the -1 resistance, but why exactly?

    Is it because of the extra elemental damage?

    Factor in that unless you are facing Fairies, this won’t really be making that much of a difference.

    Or, is it because it leaves them highly vulnerable to berserk etc, perhaps too much so?

    I’ve been talking to a few people I respect and it seems that the easy berserk is much more of an issue than the extra non-physical damage.

    So, we came up with the idea of “bull headed” which would be on some, not all, Orcs, and would basically be mind control protection, acting as a 20% protection. If this were on a Shocktrooper for example, it would in effect boost the resistance to 11 when facing the berserker spell, but would still allow elemental damage to inflict at 9 resistance (except for spirit damage, which would hit at 11) and thus still be a soft counter.

    #114080

    ExNihil
    Member

    I had a question for you guys:

    The weakness of Orcs in the -1 resistance, but why exactly?

    Is it because of the extra elemental damage?

    Factor in that unless you are facing Fairies, this won’t really be making that much of a difference.

    Or, is it because it leaves them highly vulnerable to berserk etc, perhaps too much so?

    I’ve been talking to a few people I respect and it seems that the easy berserk is much more of an issue than the extra non-physical damage.

    So, we came up with the idea of “bull headed” which would be on some, not all, Orcs, and would basically be mind control protection, acting as a 20% protection. If this were on a Shocktrooper for example, it would in effect boost the resistance to 11 when facing the berserker spell, but would still allow elemental damage to inflict at 9 resistance (except for spirit damage, which would hit at 11) and thus still be a soft counter.

    I give the calculations in my initial post so this gives u a factual answer to this question. Fairies are really not the only unit in the game that uses elemental damage – all support units, a large amount of monsters and magical creatures, dragons, giants and also racial units with dual channel attacks (flamer, darter, big beetle, first-born). I’d say that the five elements form more then 50% of the overall attacks in the game, and of course more then 50% of magical abilities and spells.

    As far as the actual suggestion – this is sort of cheating in my opinion, if a race receives a -1 resistance it should have -1 resistance.

    Also, the easy way to do what you suggest is give Orcs 5% spirit resistance, which will put them at the normal level vs. mind altering spells and abilities. Creating a new ability just for this purpose is not necessary. Yet doing that is absurd in relation to both the idea of giving them -1 resistance as their primary racial malus (-1 ranged is secondary) and the concept of Orcs as susceptible to magic, which should be manifested in some major weakness. My proposal for exchanging the +5hp with +15% resistance is based on the idea of compensating for that major weakness with an equal strength in the other side, which the +5hp do not actually give. What I like about this proposal is that it both utilizes purely the existing mechanics in a way that fits the racial concept and it does so by balancing the race on the idea of asymmetry.

    Otherwise… I’ve mentioned elsewhere, but one thing I’d like to see from a lore perspective is orcs getting a little fire and blight resistance, say 20%. Lorewise, orcs currently live with blighted terrain better than anyone except goblins, and it’s been a plot point in the past that orcs resist heat better than humans – which makes it strange that orcs are now possibly the most vulnerable race to both fire and blight. 20% resistance to each would behave similarly to the elf vulnerability to blight – it works with the resistance penalty to mean that in most cases orcs are actually similar to humans in withstanding fire and blight, it’s other nonphysical channels they’re weak against.

    Introducing 20% fire and blight resistance is a major re-balance. These are the two most common damage types in the game aside from physical and 20% damage reduction in both of these channels will make Orcs almost as powerful as Dwarves in resisting elemental/magic damage. I understand what you are saying, yet the problem here is the mechanics are in conflict with the lore. I.e. the way elemental and magical damage is rolled vs. resistance and the influence of elemental resistance in damage reduction and the ability of effects to take hold. If Orcs are to be the race that is susceptible to magical effects these resistances cannot be introduced.

    #114087

    Draxynnic
    Member

    The resistances in question would still leave them vulnerable to spirit and shock damage, which happen to be the most common damage from two of the three most overtly magical classes presently in the game (theocrat and sorcerer respectively). Personally, too, I also think it’s fitting that orcs should remain vulnerable to mind control – particularly mind control that causes them to go berserk and attack their (former) friends.

    We’ve got a situation where the mechanics don’t match the lore, as I explained. We’ve also got a situation where the same mechanic is seen as being too punishing. My proposal wins on both counts – it brings orc mechanics more in line with the lore, and it ameliorates the disadvantage of a low resistance.

    Something in my last post that I think you might have missed is that there is precedent for this. Elves are more resistant to magic… except blight, where the idea is that unless particularly strong blight attacks are involved, they work out as being roughly the same as humans. My proposal is essentially doing this in reverse – the end result is that they’re about as vulnerable to fire and blight as humans, maybe a little more, but against everything else, they’re weak.

    Or to put it another way – they’re still vulnerable to magic, but it has to be genuine magic, not ordinary (or conjured but otherwise ordinary) fire or poison. Oh, and as a heat-loving race, they’re also vulnerable to cold. 😛

    #114128

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, we have very different opinions. I think I have explained my position quite clearly in my previous post, so we will have to disagree here :).

    #114300

    Sadist1
    Member

    10% to physical resistance should be enough. Anything more and the orc theocrat/druid might become a bit too imbalanced when it comes to early game creeping.

    The 20% fire resistance does not make sense to me – orcs and draconians having the same fire res is quite silly. I feel like this would be too much of a stealth nerf to the draconian players, whose physical damage units are quite lackluster compared to orcs’

    #114307

    ExNihil
    Member

    10% to physical resistance should be enough. Anything more and the orc theocrat/druid might become a bit too imbalanced when it comes to early game creeping.

    On what is this statement based? Simply some intuition? I have showed the math in length above.

    The 20% fire resistance does not make sense to me – orcs and draconians having the same fire res is quite silly. I feel like this would be too much of a stealth nerf to the draconian players, whose physical damage units are quite lackluster compared to orcs’

    I agree OFC.

    #114323

    Draxynnic
    Member

    The 20% fire resistance does not make sense to me – orcs and draconians having the same fire res is quite silly. I feel like this would be too much of a stealth nerf to the draconian players, whose physical damage units are quite lackluster compared to orcs’

    Except it wouldn’t be the same fire resistance – draconians still have a higher base resistance, and a number of draconian units have additional fire resistance on medals or outright immunity. I’m proposing a flat 20%, on similar thinking to the elven blight vulnerability – what it’s mostly doing is offsetting the resistance modifier for a specific unit.

    Additionally, if it makes orcs stronger against two of the three races viewed as the most powerful in the game… sorry, but I don’t see that as a bad thing. In fact, I’d view it as a better starting point than some of the more extreme dwarf and draconian nerfs that have been proposed, and this one has the advantage of being supported by game lore.

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