PBEM balance mod

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This topic contains 343 replies, has 27 voices, and was last updated by  Rodmar18 2 years, 5 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 31 through 60 (of 344 total)
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  • #244256

    Zaskow
    Member

    I would like to help, as it seems like a fair amount of work here. However I do think it is best to keep the changes in one mod and I am not sure there is a good way to collaborate with the tools given.

    Yes, current mod system makes coop work very difficult. I’m not even sure, that split of 1 mod into a few smaller will work as planned (that’s why I make my mods in one package only).

    Perhaps if you were going to not be making changes for a couple of days, you could assign some work to me pass me the acp file and then I could pass it back.

    Planned changes aren’t very complicated now and I can do it myself. But if we would plan some difficult stuff like your idea about upgrading of GRU then it will be your part of work definitely. 🙂

    Or maybe I could do some testing.

    Additional testers are always welcomed.

    #244259

    cbower
    Member

    I am in the middle of some gameplay testing now. I am in a handful of balance mod games, so I can provide some gameplay feedback when that is done. Also let me know you need functional testing. I can take a list of changes and note the scenarios tried, and the results.

    #244265

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Zaskow, would
    GC11
    Converted units cost more in ukeep: +1 gold / turn for T1 and +25% gold / turn for T2 to T4
    be possible? cbower was not sure it was possible to implement.

    There are abilities like Heretic that stick to unit in the strategic map and that are also in the tactical map. So would it be possible to give such an ability to units that are converted (like “Hired against its will” or something).

    #244267

    Zaskow
    Member

    There are abilities like Heretic that stick to unit in the strategic map and that are also in the tactical map. So would it be possible to give such an ability to units that are converted (like “Hired against its will” or something).

    I’ll check if this possible to add properties with converting.

    #244270

    Zaskow
    Member

    update

    I’ve managed to place Volunteer through Seduce, so I think higher upkeep is pretty possible.
    Bad news are that I can’t place any kind of time limit for temporary effect on these seduced units, i.e if unit was seduced it will cost more maintenance to the end of game.

    #244271

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Yeah, that’s what I was expecting: that it would last until the end of the game. That’s what GC11 proposes anyway. But that would be nice if we could find a way for it to be temporary (like Heretic).

    Ok so it is possible! Now we need to confirm if we want it, I should have an answer by this Sunday.

    #244272

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Guys, you are making this WAY too complex.

    I think, we can solve this way easier, but I’ve not finished my tests, yet. When I do, I think we can have a very nice PBEM/SP mod that solves all issues in a very satisfactory way. I hope to finish tests on the weekend, which should allow me to put out a beta mod for general testing.

    #244282

    Hiliadan
    Member

    You’re so cute. 😛

    #244306

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I know, it may sound a bit weird, but I’ll explain things thoroughly on Sunday or so.

    #244308

    Zaskow
    Member

    I think, we can solve this way easier, but I’ve not finished my tests, yet. When I do, I think we can have a very nice PBEM/SP mod that solves all issues in a very satisfactory way.

    Do your own mod then. Community will decide which mod is nicer.

    #244310

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I’m doing exactly that.

    #244321

    cbower
    Member

    @jollyjoker I am interested to see what you come up with, and it doesn’t hurt to have options. Still I think it would be better to work with the others here. I think there is a lot of value in pushing towards one mod. Joker would you have any issue with your changes being considered proposal’s to the existing mod. People could vote on them and some would make it into the PBEM mod. Then if your willing you could release your code changes to Zaskow to pull in.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by  cbower.
    #244323

    cbower
    Member

    Nice! If you can I would like to see how you have done it. Maybe I just had the wrong approach. You can email me at cbower@advws.net.

    update

    I’ve managed to place Volunteer through Seduce, so I think higher upkeep is pretty possible.
    Bad news are that I can’t place any kind of time limit for temporary effect on these seduced units, i.e if unit was seduced it will cost more maintenance to the end of game.

    #244326

    Zaskow
    Member

    Nice! If you can I would like to see how you have done it. Maybe I just had the wrong approach.

    Sorry to disappoint you guys, but after careful testing I’ve noticed that effect from volunteer disappear after battle. 🙁 Strange that I overlooked this. Simplest decision wasn’t correct…

    @hiliadan, plz put on hold GC11 for later version, because I’m not sure how we can make this.

    @cbower, could you check possibility of adding properties on units on converting? Temporary properties (to the end of battles) are possible, but not on strategic map.

    #244361

    Gilafron
    Member

    As an aside, would you consider incorporating “window dressing” mods? That is, mods that alter appearance, not play. For instance, Hiliadan had mentioned on the Order Messages thread that that mod would be nifty to include in the balance mod. I agree. Also, I think Racial Class Unit Reskin would be another great addition into the balance mod. It really does add to the immersion in the game. I would really appreciate loading the balance mod and not have to check/uncheck these other mods. It would be very convenient.

    #244368

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Yes, I think we should definitely consider adding “appearance” mods too but I would say that we should focus first on getting many people to use the mod and to fix most balance issues, then we can focus on appearance. Otherwise we may lose some people who are not interested by appearance.

    #244370

    Hiliadan
    Member

    cbower wrote:

    I would like to help, as it seems like a fair amount of work here. However I do think it is best to keep the changes in one mod and I am not sure there is a good way to collaborate with the tools given.

    Yes, current mod system makes coop work very difficult. I’m not even sure, that split of 1 mod into a few smaller will work as planned (that’s why I make my mods in one package only).

    I was wondering, how easy is it to copy the changes of one mod into another?
    Because it would be great if cbower or someone else could make the many small description changes that are needed to improve game’s experience. E.g. all these mentioned here: http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/list-the-undocumented-features-you-have-found/
    + remove Night Vision from heroes who already have it (Dwarves, Goblins, etc.), etc.

    #244377

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Ok, I made a different thread for the mod. I’d like to point out that the mod is only a start – I tried to keep specific changes to a minimum and concentrate on the big picture, details being a thing to add when the big picture is right.

    #244378

    Zaskow
    Member

    Also, I think Racial Class Unit Reskin would be another great addition into the balance mod. It really does add to the immersion in the game. I would really appreciate loading the balance mod and not have to check/uncheck these other mods. It would be very convenient.

    I want to see Reskin mod in mine too, but there are 2 problems. We need permission of Tibbles (no very problematic I suppose) and what other people think about implementing such mod.

    I was wondering, how easy is it to copy the changes of one mod into another?

    Very difficult, I suppose almost impossible, because you can run only 1 instance of mod editor (in steam version of game at least). You can’t run even more than 1 copy of rpk, because trying to open one more leads to crush.
    Also editor consumes too much RAM (around 2-2,5 Gb). I can’t run more than 1 copy on my PC which has only 4 Gb of RAM.

    Because it would be great if cbower or someone else could make the many small description changes that are needed to improve game’s experience. E.g. all these mentioned here: http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/list-the-undocumented-features-you-have-found/%5B/quote%5D

    And this is pretty possible, because descriptions can be made through Excel.

    + remove Night Vision from heroes who already have it (Dwarves, Goblins, etc.), etc.

    Need to check.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by  Zaskow.
    • This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by  Zaskow.
    #244391

    Hiliadan
    Member

    How would you include Tibbles’s Reskin mod in yours?
    My question regarding the “copy” of a mod was: if cbower (or someone else) does all the ability description corrections and save it in one mod, can you easily include that in the PBEM balance mod? Users would then have only to check the PBEM balance mod when they launch AoW3 and they would get all the changes. (and of course users would download only one mod; so it’s user friendly)

    #244394

    DreadReapr
    Member

    Hello
    Even tho i only played few pbem games maybe some of my live mp experience can be useful for your pbem patch so here’s My thoughts on proposed changes:
    Im For

    -GC01
    you don’t have to delete nymphs if you find a solution for the convert issue
    how about adding zephyr bird to reward as well?
    -GC02
    -GC03
    thats defently a must, i think using all abilities in battle b4 fighting ai is too boring
    -GC04
    -GC04
    i don’t knw if you guys usualy play with same race hero settings, if you do then its a bad idea to kill the hero at start even for base xp 25 due to race happiness penalty. if you don’t play like this then i guess its fine to decrease xp.
    -GC010
    converted units shud be eleminated after battle bcz it ruins race/class uniqueness and force u to pick certain class heroes at start. raising upkeep is not good enough to deal with this problem bcz im sure i can handle some extra upkeep in small/medium map b4 i reach my opponent with my converted t3s and t4s. perhaps raising it to 75-100 % can make u think twice b4 converting any unit.

    Im against:

    -GC06
    i don’t see any reason to change it to once per battle, yes its bad for live mp but can u tell me why its good for pbem?
    -GC08 -GC09
    imo 500 is little cheap ,i think it shud be like 700+ for both

    ill keep posting my thoughts on other topics.

    #244395

    kwibus
    Member

    This is in reply to Hiliadan on the battelfield post.

    I’ve considered the fact that convert/charm etc all only apply until the end of battle. That’s still very powerful in battle, but I don’t know if Theocrats and to a lesser extent Rogues can deal without it completely.

    Still it might be better for them then less effective charms/converts/befriend animal, because how viable are those skills when the success chance drops significantly.

    A change is needed though. Of that I’m sure!

    I liked the idea of improving the skill of convert/charm/BA when researching a certain skill. Most of all because that makes theocrat heroes less interesting when your not a theocrat. Still good, but not the best out there.

    You could also consider convert/charm/BA until end of battle and keep the current effectiveness of those skills, but add extra efficiency to it when bard/evangelist/eldritch animal is researched. This way the skill becomes strong, but your not going to keep the units you converted. Still it’s viable to use converting units as converting a unit can be a tipping point in a equal fight…. or in a doomed fight. Converting 1-2 units can give you the win.

    Just a thought.

    ———–

    If your sticking to the proposed changes then I’m fine with you guys picking the one you think is best. Either reducing the effectiveness of the skills or converted/charmed etc units are only until battle converted.

    ————

    p.s. What happens to the units that are only converted until the end of battle?

    #244399

    I posted in the other thread but I’ll post here for visibility.

    Since changing upkeep is not possible, I want to revise my position a bit.

    I’ve just tried playing with weak armies+strong defenders (with village start & high resources) and leveling is much slower because you can only clear the easiest camps without losses. Production of units early becomes necessary because you start with just 3 T1 units, usually irregulars. Another bonus of these settings is that it’s pretty much impossible to successfully starting stack rush even on a small map.

    IMO these establishing these settings as standard (weak starting armies, strong defenders, village start, high resources), combined with the XP changes will be mostly sufficient to delay acquiring most convert abilities super early.

    The only other changes that I think should be made then are Ad06, Ne08, Ro16, and Th08 to discourage players from gambling on converting a powerful unit in order to win fights.

    #244401

    Zaskow
    Member

    How would you include Tibbles’s Reskin mod in yours?

    Ou, this is pretty easy. All mods in steam are locked, but only acp-files. Libraries with models and textures don’t lock and can be used easily. I will just download mod and use models and icons.

    My question regarding the “copy” of a mod was: if cbower (or someone else) does all the ability description corrections and save it in one mod, can you easily include that in the PBEM balance mod?

    Mod descriptions are stored in xml-files, which can be edited by any spreadsheet software. No separate mod needed, just only only xml-file. Yep, it would make my work easier. 🙂

    #244433

    Hiliadan
    Member

    You could also consider convert/charm/BA until end of battle and keep the current effectiveness of those skills, but add extra efficiency to it when bard/evangelist/eldritch animal is researched.

    Yes, that’s an option but as
    GC10
    Converted, Charmed, Seduced, etc. units are converted only until the end of Battle and disappear afterwards
    is not getting much support, I will not add this idea in the table for now.

    If your sticking to the proposed changes then I’m fine with you guys picking the one you think is best. Either reducing the effectiveness of the skills or converted/charmed etc units are only until battle converted.

    Ok, so I add you “for” all of them then.

    p.s. What happens to the units that are only converted until the end of battle?

    They disappear!

    My question regarding the “copy” of a mod was: if cbower (or someone else) does all the ability description corrections and save it in one mod, can you easily include that in the PBEM balance mod?

    Mod descriptions are stored in xml-files, which can be edited by any spreadsheet software. No separate mod needed, just only only xml-file. Yep, it would make my work easier. 🙂

    Ok so it could work then? 2 modders working on 2 separate mods to work in parallel and then the two merging in the end.

    #244477

    Hiliadan
    Member

    I’m waiting 24h to 48h to get additional feedback from players involved in a 4 vs 4 which will use the balance mod, but I think the changes to include in the v1.1 should be (in addition to the ones I announced earlier):

    GC08a
    Unity Beacon Tower costs 700 gold (was 1200)

    GC09a
    Unity Beacon Fire costs 700 mana (was 1000)

    AD05
    Befriend Animal is available at level 5 for Archdruid heroes and leaders (was 3) and costs 4 (was 3)

    AD06
    Leaders and heroes’ Befriend Animal has strength 6. When Summon Eldritch Animal is researched by the player, its strength is improved to 8.

    Dr08
    Musketeers’ Fire Musket does 28 ranged physical damage (was 25)

    Ne07a
    Necromancer heroes and leaders can choose Convert Undead at level 5 for 5 points (was level 5 for 4 points)

    Ne08
    Leaders and heroes’ Control Undead has strength 6. When Summon Banshee is researched by the player, its strength is improved to 8.

    Ro14a
    Rogue heroes and leaders can choose Charm at level 7 (was 5) for 5 points

    Ro16
    Leaders and heroes’ Charm has strength 6. When Produce Bard is researched by the player, its strength is improved to 7.

    Th08
    Leaders and heroes’ Convert has strength 7. When Produce Evangelist is researched by the player, its strength is improved to 9.

    Th09
    Theocrat leaders and heroes can choose Convert at level 9 (was 7) for 7 points (was 5)

    So Zaskow, we need to confirm if we can do the “strength increase” of abilities linked to tech. Otherwise, is an increase in the number of targets (from T1+T2 to all units) possible?

    #244481

    marcuspers1
    Member

    I vote against AD06 for the following reason:
    I don’t think the values are right. From strenght 12 to 6? And with Eldritch Animal it’s 8. Compare that to Theocrat Convert, from strenght 11 to 7, and up to 9 (so only 2 from original value) with Produce Evangelist. Rogue Charm from strenght 9 to 6, with Bard up to 7 (so again just 2 from original). Please correct it, honest mistake with AD?

    #244482

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Thanks for the head up marcuspears! All the values are wrong. It’s late now in China but I’ll correct tomorrow (or later because quite a busy week). The idea is that it decreases by 2 and then go back to its original level after the tech is researched (for all the abilities, so values seem wrong for Charm and Convert as well as for Befriend animal).

    #244483

    marcuspers1
    Member

    Not to worry Hiliadan, I could even understand an ambition to lower the final value by 2 to decrease the dependency of convert/charm/befriend animal.

    #244487

    Starfleck
    Member

    I would agree with that too, like Marcuspers said, to decrease dependency/effectiveness of conversions. Currently that’s the most effective and annoying tactic, to rush the first enemy you see with converted units, since production is so bad on average/normal settings. Still, at least a temporary decrease is a good one, to curb that tactic at match start, and later in the match the strength is good to stay competitive on classes that rely more on it. Either way, I’ll cast some votes:

    For:
    GC01, GC02, GC03, GC04, GC05, GC06(or increase cooldown to 3 turns), GC07
    AD06, AD07, AD08a(orc’s play style supports sprint, useful for archer to kite)
    Dr01, Dr04a, Dr07, Dr09, Dr10, Dr15(mechanized field medic?)
    Ne04(remove stackable property and make it -400 morale, 30% spirit weakness, at 9 strength)
    Ne05a, Ne07a, Ne08
    Ro06(not guardian flame but rogue equivalent, like giving blight damage and life leech, with small heal. consider giving to bard too), Ro10, Ro12, Ro16
    So06(harmonizing aura?)

    Against:
    AD07a(AD is chosen for ranged strength, don’t buff melee), AD08
    Dr12
    Ro05, Ro14, Ro14a(charm is already weaker than ghoul and convert, has more restrictions, and is being nerfed by Ro16)

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