PBEM balance mod

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This topic contains 343 replies, has 27 voices, and was last updated by  Rodmar18 3 years, 8 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 211 through 240 (of 344 total)
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  • #253673

    Outis
    Member

    ignore

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by  Outis.
    #253761

    Hiliadan
    Member

    GC20
    […]
    Siren’s Musical Box is Epic-rarity and has Siren’s Vail (was Strong rarity and had Seduce)

    @zaskow: Looks like you skipped the part in bold last time (cf. report from Mulzaro on the main branch’s page). I don’t remember why we changed the rarity, but let’s stick to it. 😀

    Also another bug to correct on v1.22 (I reported to it to you on the chat): Tigran Necro’s economic RG descriptions are not displayed (and maybe not effective).

    #254136

    marcuspers1
    Member

    Hello,

    If this list (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Forbidden_Sanctum) is accurate, I can see a big problem with the Obsidian and Bone Dragon being valued at just 600RP, compared to Feathered Serpent 900RP. It could mean that when you get a dragon summon, you also get additional mana/casting points because the reward is deemed to be less than for example the serpent.

    The Dragons should not be valued less than a T3 summon (currently 700-900RP), probably a bit more, perhaps 1000-1200RP to balance the rewards.

    #254315

    Hiliadan
    Member

    The descriptions I provided in https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eVOyD2rdiUb4PytVhaKT1rxNiWMquRAlnXw587VwBpg for the techs that upgrade the “Lesser mind control” abilities to “mind control” abilities was incorrect, sorry. I wrote “leader and heroes'” but actually it upgrades only for leaders. Would need to be corrected.
    (AD06a, Ne08a, Ro16a, Th08a)

    #254601

    swups
    Member

    hi

    i propose some changes that are obvious

    – Enchanted Threads
    net that throws itself at a random enemy unit.
    Ensnared units cannot take any action for 2 turns. or -15 move when unsuccessful.

    win win scenario. best Defensive Building by far.
    lost against 3 frost necro cadavers with a horned god even had healing, lol, pvp battle.
    every round ensnared ridicously.
    just give them a damage defense.
    btw worst by far Glacial Totem

    – Dread Reaper Invoke Death
    touch ability + no cooldown or 4rounds

    – Dreadnought Dampening Field
    Generates a mana negating field that doubles the Mana and Casting Points cost of spells from everyone but its caster. Casting Cost: 15 mana

    make it only for leaders, casting leader too.
    problem too cheap to cast. possible critical Disjunction or unsuccessful, at least -40 CP . in generall all leaders have around 80-110 CP.
    played ag necro tigran 18 vs 18. he casted round 1 Dampening Field. r2 Scourge of Undead, tried to dispel, no luck. -40 cp
    r3 Undying Army . and that was basicly the end, had only 1 try (110 cp). dispelled und army,-80 cp , but too many units from scourge. had wild magic and picked off his
    “strongest” creatures with Swap Locations. strategy was over after dampening field.

    – Bone Collector
    once again lost match ag 280 hp Bone Collector at the end !!!
    make the collect bones with cooldown 3rds and -15 move for each collecting.
    really i mean eat +20 hp move kill creature and next round +20hp and + possible cadavers it gets worse. and with Embrace Darkness it has life steal too !

    – Engineer
    give them handgranade with dmg whatever and -15 move (successful) and range long
    smthing like Throw Chicken

    thats for now

    #254627

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Hello swups! Thanks for the feedback and proposals for balance!

    For Enchanted Threads, I think the issue is more that you should not attack with a single (or a few) unit a city with this battle enchantment (or another one for that matter). Imagine you had 18 units, Enchanted Threads would not be very annoying. So it’s more about adapting one’s strategy than balance here IMO.

    Dread Reaper: why do you think the changes are necessary?

    Dampening Field: looks like there is indeed an issue. Though I’m not sure your solution would fix it? What about increasing the CP cost to 30 or more?

    Bone collector: yes, this definitely needs fixing. I actually posted something about it a very long time ago. However that was not a priority at the time and still isn’t. The way the mod works is that we seek consensus among the community before introducing changes. I doubt the support for this would be sufficient to validate the change so I’d rather not push it for now (as it takes time for people to read changes and provide feedback on them).

    Engineers: you think they’re still bad despite all the boosts they received in the balance mod? What makes a new ranged attack necessary (they already have 2!)?

    #254632

    swups
    Member

    Engineers

    i think they have the wrong ones , i think their purpose should be to delay the
    enemy to give their machines more time to make damage/kill enemies

    Dampening Field

    look i played that strategy too, dont wanna lie, its the end for the enemy if there is
    almost the same quantity.
    it doesnt change anything coz if u have a dread hero whats the point u dont need him for nothing else that this strategy a little bit df hp and 1 or 2 skills the rest goes into
    cp. no point at all even if u would put it at 50 i(they) would still play it coz its
    game winning! for me its like xp farming. i would maybe accept it if it could only be cast by a dread leader.
    lets be honest dread is underpowered , thats why no one plays them.

    Dread Reaper
    problem is that the stupid invoke can kill anyone even a tier iv. really whats the
    point to one kill a tier iv. even if its possibilities i dont care, i even converted
    a lvl 16 hero on a 5% chance. its pure luck anyway.
    i think its not fair to have such a kill switch even without being near of the target,
    3 hexes away lol. look everyone plays with heroes and supports (which are a integral part of an army composition) to kill them from away and to encircle the reaper defensivly it makes it unkillable. if u point out that with 100 spirit protection u have nothing to fear im laughing coz of banshees and wail of despair and phase , it means that 1 or 2 banshee brings ur 100 % spirit protection down to 80% and invoke and voila u r dead meat!!!! and cooldown and the same again and again…
    we are talking about mid game here, basically going for tier iv and nothing else, but thats the most crucial part in the endgame everyone has chances strat spells and casting spells to compete.

    Bone collector
    look ive played ag it a lot , its frustrating if u at the same level heroes + creatures
    its a moving tank which goes forward with auto grow, i mean if u arent a counter like theocrat or human priests u have big problems coz in coop with dread and death bringer(shadow step tireless) what r u gonna focus on. i even had mention the fearsome at gold and the killing momentum. the problem is not the bone col. at all problem is the combination or the setup in an necro army which makes them not the priority and they will be the priority when they are behind the 140 hp mark, definately. i mean the longer the fight , the more the creatures the stronger the collector gets.
    i say it for the last time to make it clear : 90 % of players have problems no matter
    what class or race, necro excluded. coz of combination of invoke and life stealing and
    despair and energy drain and fatigue and the tank collector.

    Enchanted Threads
    my point exactly . why should u be almost safe with ur towns and everyone else gets a shitty dmg df building . in middle game end game or when 2 or 3 stacks attacking sure
    its a non factor. but really can u tell me which other race could defend a town ag a
    horned god with only “3 frost necro cadavers” as defenders and me having healing too?
    so and again my point is it has 2 sensational attacks ensnare or lose move points.
    with only 2 creatures u could take out 6 attackers, im talking bout good possibilities not facts.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by  swups.
    #254979

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Things to work on for v1.22:
    – not implemented:
    Baby Spiders and Baby Serpents get the abilities of their evolved state (Spider Queens and Mature Serpent) on Elite, namely:
    Dread Spider Baby: Inflict Severely Poisoned
    Hunter Spider Baby: Inflict Enfeebling Fever
    Vampire Spider Baby: Inflict Exhausting Fatigue
    Baby Reed Serpent and Baby Shock Serpent get +4 MP
    – Cathedral of Bones’ description to update to cite the +10%
    – Bone Funeral to rename Bone Furnace 😛
    – fix the issue with the bonus of Cathedral of Bones

    Other things to work on:
    – Spiders spawned by the battle enchantment of Shrine to the Queen of Spiders (Arachnide Hordes) do not provide XP when hit or killed
    ==> we need a solution so that they don’t give CP with Grey Guard and they don’t give XP when they strike back

    Note to self: find a name for the Lava Walking ability.

    #256383

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Badok (who did the Polish translation) reports some issues with the description:
    – Heavy Winds’ description and its actual effects do not match (affect non Flying units?)
    – Lesser Befriend Animal and Lesser Control Undead have no description in .xmls
    – Halfling’s RG seem mixed between RG levels

    #256464

    Hiliadan
    Member

    The replacement changes (see https://docs.google.com/document/d/1flsHncpzAmJa_2xMHZ6Tlp-mf69ej2mYrSGNc4V3_QA/edit# and the changelog too):

    Dr21a
    Dreadnought heroes can choose Inject Mana Fuel at level 11 for 5 points, a self-buff active ability costing 0 AP which gives them Wall Crushing, Demolisher, Tireless, Reinforced, 40% shock weakness (and add blue particle effects to represent the mana injected in the veins of the units)

    Wa05a
    Researching Death March allows to cast Death March for 60 CP and Scout Death March for 20 CP, which has a similar effect. Scout Death March affect only T1 Irregulars in target stack (and units can only be targetted once by Death March or Scout Death March).

    Th10a
    The description of the tech Exalted Martyr is corrected: it does not provide any XP bonus to Martyrs (was saying it gave +50% but was actually not). When Exalted Martyrs is researched, Martyrs evolve into Awaken Martyrs at Elite (was evolve into Exalted (Martyr)). Awaken Martyrs have the stats of an Elite Martyr and have Evolve into Exalted at Elite. They don’t get any bonus on medals (not even HP or defense, damage).

    ==
    Also, more details on the issue with Halfling’s RG: basically all the descriptions in HALFLING_BAL.xml are incorrect. In reality, only RG3 eco and RG2 military have been changed but the XML lists also changes for the following:
    Patron military
    XML: +happines for infantry and irregulars
    comment: No effect, vanilla bonus applies

    Patron economy
    XML: outposts and villages get +75 pop
    comment: No effect, vanilla bonus applies

    Patron economy necro
    XML: outposts and villages get +75 UDpop
    comment: No effect, vanilla bonus applies

    Protector economy
    XML: public baths generate bonus pop and gold
    comment: No effect, vanilla bonus applies (no additional gold)
    Protector economy necro
    XML: bone cathedral generates bonus UDpop and gold
    comment: No effect, vanilla bonus applies (no additional gold)

    Champion economy
    XML: arctic and volcanic are now accepted
    comment: description comes from prophet eco necro. In reality the clovers, berries etc bonuses are applied.
    Champion economy necro
    XML: eagle nests cost 100 gold now
    comment: No effect, vanilla bonus applies (bonus for tombs in domain)

    Prophet economy necro
    XML: cloverfields, berries, sunflowers and pumpkins grant bonuses
    comment: No effect, vanilla bonus applies (eagle nests cost 100 gold)

    So in addition to things that are not implemented, we also have the Champion economy bonus incorrectly moved to Prophet.

    #256741

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Issue report:
    – the icon of the Tigran Watchtower is blank (white). The icon of the Goblin Watchtower at least is a picture of that Watchtower

    #257203

    notme
    Member

    Can be this mod merged into balance mod? http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=847308324

    With this one you can summon lesser elementals on elemental adept and spirit/blight/random elemental on creation/destruction/wild magic master specialization.

    #257212

    Hiliadan
    Member

    This is very unlikely for two reasons: there is no balance justification to do that, Destruction and Creation being among the best specs already (see for instance that poll: https://www.the-battlefield.com/aow3/index.php?page=bf_poll&pollnumber=8), and we only include mods that are liked by most of the community and considered as “must have”. Racial Watchtowers and Racial Class Unit Reskin were in the top 5 of mods in the latest ranking, so that made sense to include them. (including mods actually require a lot of tedious work)

    #257217

    notme
    Member

    When I was using debug mode for cheats to test stuff, then these errors showed up in debug window:

    I posted it here since I’m using this mod.
    These errors seems to be harmless.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by  notme.
    #257224

    Morty
    Member

    How does this mod approach the last patch, which reduces the MP of converted/animated/etc. units to 0? Are the other nerfs to those abilities as necessary now?

    #257231

    Hiliadan
    Member

    @notme: yes, thanks for reporting this! It’s known issues and as you say, they’re harmless.

    @morty: actually the 0 MP was asked by us to devs, as we could not mod it with the current mod tools (we asked for them to give us tools to mod it, but instead they implemented it for everyone in the “official” version). So yes, overall the people contributing to the balance discussion think it is necessary to have this AND all the other nerfs. And we’re discussing further nerfs as some mind control strategies are still too strong and fast. But it’s not as severe as before, so we’ll go slow on it, and probably implement other things that may also affect that first (e.g. add an option “Strong Defenders but Normal Rewards” in the settings).

    ==
    Still to do in v1.22:
    – increase strentgh of Spirit Blast for Human Awakened Martyr + why does it has an additional physical melee strength upgrade on Iron and Silver?
    – add an appropriate FX for Inject Mana Fuel (+ an icon if possible)
    – add the updated descriptions that have not yet been added

    + cf. above:

    PBEM balance mod


    Would be good to clean the .xml to help the work of translators: http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/pbem-balance-mod/page/8/#post-256464 and http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/pbem-balance-mod/page/8/#post-256383

    I’m going to test the stuff that were not good in the first release, see if it’s fixed in the 2nd release.

    #257233

    Hiliadan
    Member

    All these are still not implemented:

    – not implemented:
    Baby Spiders and Baby Serpents get the abilities of their evolved state (Spider Queens and Mature Serpent) on Elite, namely:
    Dread Spider Baby: Inflict Severely Poisoned
    Hunter Spider Baby: Inflict Enfeebling Fever
    Vampire Spider Baby: Inflict Exhausting Fatigue
    Baby Reed Serpent and Baby Shock Serpent get +4 MP
    – Bone Funeral to rename Bone Furnace

    Also, the “no XP” spiders are still visible in the Tome of Wonders.
    And Lava Walking’s description incorrectly says +60% Fire Protection (Dreadnought’s ability) instead of +100%.

    – Heavy Winds’ description and its actual effects do not match (affect non Flying units?)

    I confirm there is an issue here: the description needs to be updated to say: “of Flying enemy units” and not “of enemy units”.

    Also one thing to modify on the stuff I did: currently Inflict Mana Fuel triggers the display of “Savage Rage” as a text when the ability is used. I thought I had removed it, but it seems I didn’t.
    Ah, and something important: I thought I had made it “physical buff” and thus not possible to Dispel, but it can be dispelled. So could you please make it not dispellable?

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    #257242

    Did you guys change how twisting roots works?

    If not then maybe I found a bug.

    In a fight, all my units had floating or flying, my Druid hero cast twisting roots, and the movement costs for all my units, except the casting hero and my phantasm warrior went up.

    My floating units were Gold medalled Apprentices so maybe not having innate floating is an issue?

    #257263

    Hiliadan
    Member

    In a fight, all my units had floating or flying, my Druid hero cast twisting roots, and the movement costs for all my units, except the casting hero and my phantasm warrior went up.

    My floating units were Gold medalled Apprentices so maybe not having innate floating is an issue?

    That’s a known bug of the official game (unrelated to the balance mod) and Triumph unfortunately does not plan to fix it, see: http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/units-that-get-floating-through-an-upgrade-dont-get-immunity-to-twisting-roots/
    Hellbrick may have found a solution, we’ll analyze it later to see if it can be implemented in the balance mod (not big priority right now).

    #257312

    Zaskow
    Member

    Version 1.22 was updated!

    – Enchanted Threads
    net that throws itself at a random enemy unit.
    Ensnared units cannot take any action for 2 turns. or -15 move when unsuccessful.

    Agreed here. As buff I think this structure could hit a few units instead 1.
    Actually a lot of defense buildings as a piece of crap (except goblin maybe).

    ets be honest dread is underpowered , thats why no one plays them.

    This is true. Dread has a lot of inferior spells, its units are slow and pretty boring to play.

    we need a solution so that they don’t give CP with Grey Guard and they don’t give XP when they strike back

    Impossible. Combat summons are forced to gain a Summoned trait which works with GG Essence Harvest. About XP it could work only with FULL deletion of XP gained from any strikes (attack/def) for all tiers.

    When I was using debug mode for cheats to test stuff, then these errors showed up in debug window:

    Users should nose less into debug logs. 😛 Anyway, I can do nothing with this.

    Ah, and something important: I thought I had made it “physical buff” and thus not possible to Dispel, but it can be dispelled. So could you please make it not dispellable?

    Done.

    #257319

    swups
    Member

    evolving unit
    i think we should give the weaker races an evolving unit

    my opinion based on creatures and Race Governance
    strong: Draconian, Human, High Elf, Tigran, Dwarf in any order
    weak: Halfling, Orc
    depending on class: Frostling, Goblin

    lets start with orcs
    War Halls are now 50g cheaper to produce
    just plain stupid. why choose?? its a Second Tier building with no gain, if u consider
    thats a 1st level race gov. , no point at all in early game!!!
    i would change it into Siege Workshop are now half price 75g

    they definitively need a Mind Control Immunity unit
    so im thinking give Orc Spearman evolving into Javeliner
    with Mind Control Immunity + throw javelin 15 dmg and -15 mp

    also i would give Orc Black Knight at elite or champion Strong Will

    theyre dead meat ag every class with decent shooters cuz of low res or just fairies
    and very susceptible ag convert or any other mind abilities

    if ur interested i have some ideas about halflings too…

    🙂

    #257324

    Hiliadan
    Member

    @zaskow: thanks for the release of v1.22! 🙂 I’m going to update the article there with some screenshots and then communicate on it: https://www.the-battlefield.com/aow3/index.php?page=commnews&eingabenewsid=69

    Some stuff I noted for next release (no need to release it in the near future, as it’s only cosmetic issues; let’s wait and see if we discover some other issues, that will be less disruptive for ongoing games if we limit the number of updates):
    – Inject Mana Fuel is displayed as “Savage Rage” when activated (above the head of the unit) and also in the unit panel after it is activated
    Bone Funeral to rename Bone Furnace (you skipped it twice 😛 it’s the 3rd time I write about it)
    – Lava Walking’s description incorrectly says +60% Fire Protection (Dreadnought’s ability) instead of +100% (I noted you want it to give only +60% but right now, it does give +100% and that’s what was announced in the release notes; we’ll discuss a decrease to +60% for v1.23 and it will probably be approved, but let’s wait for v1.23 for that, as it would impact strategies for round 4 of the tournament)

    EDIT: I also noticed an issue in Convert’s description (I haven’t had time to check the descriptions yet, may find other small issues later): it does not mention Animals as excluded targets and it should.

    @swups: thanks for these new ideas!
    Last time I forgot to point out two important elements about balance discussion. A “procedural one” is that it’s probably better and more efficient if you either open a new thread on the General forum (more people read it) if you have a specific topic (e.g. Racial Governance, but I would avoid doing that now, see 2nd point) or post suggestions on this thread: http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/balance-based-on-hard-data-from-the-pbem-tournament-continued/ That’s because the current thread http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/pbem-balance-mod is used mainly for information about new release or bug reports, not for discussion about balance itself. That makes it easier for people to find the info they want.
    The 2nd thing is that, as I said before, we try to get a mod that is acceptable by the community, and we want the community to think that the changes it includes are really good for balance and necessary for AoW3. We do not want to be just another balance mod, like the other dozens of such mod on the Steam Workshop, that basically nobody but their creator use. So it means we need to build consensus and implement things that are good for balance and that people think are indeed necessary. A few months ago, we run an important poll to set the main topics we would work on in the following months, you can read the results here: https://www.the-battlefield.com/aow3/index.php?page=commnews&eingabenewsid=67 Basically, if the changes you promote are close to the top priority, it will be much easier to work on them. If they are close to the bottom, we probably won’t give much priority to them. And it would make sense for you to join the balance discussion on the Battlefield (the main discussion goes through private messages there) to fasten the current process, rather than propose new stuff, that will just slow down the process (by overwhelming the capacity of everyone to read and think about the big number of proposed changes).

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    #257326

    Zaskow
    Member

    evolving unit
    i think we should give the weaker races an evolving unit

    Evolve is game cancer in AoW3. Definitely no.

    weak: Halfling, Orc

    Orcs are debatable weak race. They’re pretty reliable on autocombats in live MP, on manuals are far better I suppose.

    War Halls are now 50g cheaper to produce
    just plain stupid. why choose?? its a Second Tier building with no gain, if u consider

    Cheaper Warhalls means easier and quicker way to get Black Knights and Shock Troopers later.

    they definitively need a Mind Control Immunity unit

    AFAIK no one race has MCI unit in race sets. Why orcs should?

    #257358

    swups
    Member

    ok

    moved it

    balance weaker classes

    i want opinions from others as well as improvments. maybe im wrong
    about smthing so no need 2 continue, move 2 the next.

    and i would appreciate a like or dislike button.
    sometimes u just agree or disagree (without words)

    #257361

    swups
    Member

    @ Zaskow

    answered here

    balance weaker classes

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by  swups.
    #257373

    Hiliadan
    Member

    @zaskow: as said on Steam, the Fallen Angel can still be ghouled whereas it shouldn’t (changelog says all units with MCI cannot be ghouled with Inflict Ghoul Curse AND Ghouling Strike and all T4 have MCI with the mod). We should probably check other units with MCI (especially the 2 other angels) to make sure there is no other “leaks”.
    Could justify an early update of the mod to fix that (relatively big) issue.

    and i would appreciate a like or dislike button.
    sometimes u just agree or disagree (without words)

    Yes, it would be great to have such a like/dislike button but I haven’t found a good way to do that yet. However, the discussion by PM in the Battlefield is very similar to that: I send the list of proposed changes to all, then they say: “for” or “against” and they write comments only if they want, so it’s almost the same as “like”/”dislike” button, except it’s copy/paste text. Create an account there and I’ll add you to the loop of PM: https://www.the-battlefield.com/aow3

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by  Hiliadan.
    #257514

    notme
    Member

    I reported trebuchet being auto-ghouled in bug reports, but no one replied here.
    I guess its fault this mod and you accidentally made it ghouled when its being produced in necromancers city.

    #257517

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Did you try de-activating the mod and reproducing the issue? I doubt this is linked to the balance mod as Trebuchets were never modified.

    Devs will answer you on the Help forum at some point, they’re just very busy with the new game at the moment.

    #257519

    notme
    Member

    I deactivated mods. It seems like Erasmus cheat triggers this bug, as if one of empire upgrades makes trebuchets ghouled.
    It seems like its purely production display bug – actually it isn’t ghouled when produced.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by  notme.
    #257539

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Weird! You should probably provide these additional info on the Help forum for the devs. 🙂

    == To fix in v1.22 ==
    Choking Fumes’ description does not display correctly the stuff between {}.
    See https://imgur.com/VP3eiIa

    View post on imgur.com

    EDIT: Befriend Animal displayed twice in the ToW and both are “Befriend Animal” and not “Lesser Befriend Animal” even if you don’t play AD
    The one for Leader does not display the {} correctly

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 8 months ago by  Hiliadan.
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