Please don't warcraftize orcs !

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Please don't warcraftize orcs !

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This topic contains 29 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  ccollective_uncoonscious 9 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #3563

    b0rsuk
    Member

    Orcs in AoW: SM have their own style. They use heavy *horse* cavalry instead of wolf mounts, have twists like Abomination, Doom bats, and worship Glutton.

    These days it feels like 2/3 of all games have warcraftized orcs. Pompous, honorable, noble. They feel so much like “noble savage” it’s no fun playing with them. Where it once may have been original and fresh, the idea is now tired.

    Please don’t look at Warcraft when designing orcs. Keep your own style. Many people are sick of wc style. There may be temptation to decouple orcs from “evil” now that you want to break with some fantasy cliches, but in my opinion some tendencies should remain.

    #3566

    Piko LV
    Member

    Agree. I hope AoW3 orcs won’t be stilized as Warcraft orcs, but rather as orcs from AoW1&2. These were really cool.

    #3568

    Andocair
    Member

    The combination: Orc archdruid might be headed in that direction. But I don’t think, that’s a bad thing necessarily. In the Age of Wonders lore it seems a little strange, just like an elven juggernaut, or a goblin theocrat, but it spices the world up.

    As long as the majority of orcs remain more of the warmongering menace type, I’m just fine with there being some ‘noble savages’ among them.

    #3569

    NEHZ
    Member

    Part of the ‘evil race’ stuff always bothered me: you can’t have your whole race being a bunch of backstabbers, because they’ll die out. And if they’re only backstabbing sometimes to move into a more powerfull position, then they’re not evil as a race, I mean humans do that too.
    Go ahead and give a race a culture where they’re more likely to go to war for racial hate instead of money or political power, but don’t be too quick to simply slap a permanent ‘evil’ sticker on it.
    So yeah, keep orcish doom bats, horses and glutton, keep their distaste of certain races, but don’t fix their alignment. From what I’ve seen from TS’ posts, I believe they’re going to do it just right.

    #3570

    BlaneckW
    Member

    Where are you, my chainmail swordsmen.

    #3576

    b0rsuk
    Member

    Orcs/Theocrat: they go to war against infidels.
    Orcs/Dreadnought: they fight for progress.
    Orcs/Druid: they go to war to save the environment.
    Orcs/Sorcerer: they go to war to fulfill the Dear Leader’s ambitions.
    Orcs/Rogue: they go to war because their enemies are subverted and weak, and the opportunity presents itself.
    Orcs/Warlord: they go to war because it’s the right thing to do. Tradition…

    😉

    None of the leaders sounds like good or evil. Warlord might be the closest to evil, because when you have a bunch of men at arms – even running a police state, for “defensive” purposes – military leaders will be itching to push the red buttons and try new weapons in action. Theocrat – the most ruthless wars have been waged in the name of religions, this includes supposedly peaceful christian religion. Never forget crusades. Meanwhile Islam glorifies offensive war. Voodoo is a religion with curses. Scientology is a “religion” about greed. Just because you label something “religion” it doesn’t become a cure to world’s troubles. Schisms are also common within a single religion. Christianity, Islam and Judaism have factions that dislike each other, and have fought each other.

    #3579

    BlaneckW
    Member

    Thank you for that commentary.

    #3590

    Nexium Night
    Member

    lol warcraftized XD

    They say the game, Runescape fell victim to that with its Evolution of Combat update, but idk lol 😛

    #3597

    Draxynnic
    Member

    @nehz: D&D3.5 actually lampshaded that a bit with the drow – it pointed out that a race as backstab-happy as the drow would be expected to have its civilisation collapse within decades, and posited that Lolth was keeping it finely balanced at a level where it was entertaining, but not risking to bring the whole edifice toppling down. On orcs… the Pathfinder description of orcs as being kind of like gangs of juvenile delinquents might be a good way of looking at how orcish society might work. Little or no regard for anyone outside the gang/tribe and possibly quick to squabble inside it, but still a strong sense of community within the gang.

    AoW orcs have always, I think, had a limited but growing environmental connection – taming doom bats in -1, doom bats, shamans and abominations in -2. Orc archdruids in -3 I would see as an extension of the trend set by animal-controlling shamans and half-vegetable abominations in AoW2 – they have powers to manipulate nature, but they don’t see the best use of those powers being to promote environmental harmony like those namby-pamby elves or warcraftised orcs. Instead, it’s one more weapon to use against their enemies.

    That’s not to say that there can’t be orcs that are, one way or another, more enlightened than others, but I think the baseline orc attitude to anything, including the environment, is “Can I use this as a weapon?”. An elf archdruid would see a pristine meadow as something to protect – an orc archdruid, with the usual orc attitude of only appreciating cruelty, would look at that meadow and think it would be much more useful as a defence if it was choked up with carnivorous vines and growths issuing forth poisonous gases.

    #3608

    BlaneckW
    Member

    “AoW orcs have always, I think, had a limited but growing environmental connection”

    AoW1 Orcs are warrior/tribal lead by Shaman, these are simply animals they have domesticated.  I am not opposed to druid orcs, but if they are moving majority of Orcs out of Warlord class their ought to be some story behind it. I have no impression this is what they are doing, and wouldn’t generally consider it positive.  Orcs came from LOTR, which basically envisioned them as a horde like Mongols, representing the typically destructive elements of nomads from history.  That isn’t to say they couldn’t become somewhat settled, the Mongols certainly tried.  If Dark Elves had won we might see Orcs as knights and Goblins as farmers.

    #3617

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Doom bat lore indicates that among the orcs, it was the shamans who typically controlled them, suggesting that magic may have been involved in controlling and training them, although the lore does leave open the possibility that they can be trained through purely mundane means.

    The ‘growing’ part, however, comes from Age of Wonders 2, where shamans explicitly have the ability to magically command animals, and the abomination lore has them being made through blending a carnivorous plant and an orc deemed deserving of such punishment through shamanic magic. That suggests, to me, that their magic was always at least partially nature-based, although the good elves would view it as a corruption of nature – the shaman’s magic is less about being in harmony with nature and more about controlling it. It’s also quite clear, through the orc lore, that shamans could certainly rise to positions of leadership among the orcs just as easily as warlords, including the orc wizard in Shadow Magic.

    If it helps, you could think of the orcish arch-druid as being more of an ‘arch-shaman’ instead, and there’s likely a means of furnishing the orcish arch-druid with the evil magic that truly reflects the orcish inclinations.

    #3665

    warboss_aohd
    Member

    Wot? i like it betta when da racez ain’t all evil or all good.

     

    dun make sense if dey are.

    #3668

    BlaneckW
    Member

    “It’s also quite clear, through the orc lore, that shamans could certainly rise to positions of leadership among the orcs just as easily as warlords, including the orc wizard in Shadow Magic.”

    Shaman are the leaders of Orcs.  They are a tribal society.  This is fairly explicit in AOW1.  Tribal societies are typically lead by Shaman.  That means their leaders are Shaman.  Shamanism typically revolves around a connection to nature.  This indicates nothing as to the direction of a tribal system as it is common to all of them.  They may also have a Warlord.  This is babble.  To be more clear, Warlord Genghis Khan abolished the tribal system to a large degree to replace it with decimal organization.

    #3679

    Unknown250
    Member

    Sorry, been gone for a bit. Are Orcs a confirmed race, then?

    #3680

    BlaneckW
    Member

    Yes, but you’d find that out in a nearby thread anyway.

    #3681

    Draxynnic
    Member

    In your last post, you said “I am not opposed to druid orcs, but if they are moving majority of Orcs out of Warlord class their ought to be some story behind it”, implying that you thought the natural hero class, and thus the expected class of orc leaders, was the Warlord. I was pointing out that that was not necessarily so, and that shamans had at least as much of a claim to being leadership caste as the warriors.

    Personally, I don’t think it’s as clear as you now claim that shamans have a monopoly on the leadership… any more than the warriors do. The religious caste is clearly important to a tribal society, but the overall leader is not necessarily also the leader of the religious caste – whether a given orc tribe is lead by the best warrior or the most powerful shaman is, I suspect, a matter for the politics of the individual tribe.

    Now that you’ve acknowledged that the shamans have a connection to nature, then, which class do you think best fits orc leaders that rose out of the shaman caste rather than the warrior caste? At present, it looks like we essentially have three magical (theocrat, sorceror, archdruid) and three… less magical classes (juggernaught, warlord, rogue). The theocrat clearly doesn’t align with the shamans, leaving sorceror and archdruid. Now, sorceror could work, especially for shamans that lean more towards making pacts with the Underworld in exchange for dark powers than towards dominating nature, but I’d put it to you that the archdruid works just as well.

    You just need to ignore the name – it’s a label, nothing more. The orcish “archdruid” is not a sign that the AoW orcs are being ‘warcraftised’ – it’s simply a logical extension of the powers over nature we’ve already seen orc shamans using in AoW2.

    #3690

    Sordak
    Member

    well i doubt this thread is about thinking orcs are beeing warcraftized becaause they can be archdruids but because they are becoming warcraft orcs in alot of other settings. Wich i would agree with.

    On your elaboration. I actually would not suprised of orcs seeing the benefit in technology (for their own goals of course)
    I could see an Orc Juggernaut about as likeley as an Orc warlord. Naturally the Archdruid is fit for the Shamanic leadership.

    #3696

    Draxynnic
    Member

    I’m curious now as to what people mean by ‘warcrafting’ orcs here. My perception of this is one of presenting orcs as essentially ‘noble savages’, with a deep connection to the land and with a history of fighting the more traditionally good races that is based off historical tragedies and misunderstandings, and that if only the two would get over the grudges of the past and get together then they’d find they have a lot in common.

    In other words, something that is only really connected to traditional orcs by name, the presence of tusks, and having a grudge against humans. Warcraft in this case is especially bad since orcs were originally presented in the traditional form and… changed.

    By contrast, since coming across it I’ve regarded the Spellforce series for a while as a way of how to make traditionally evil races a little less black and white without sacrificing their essential nature. Their orcs, for instance, carry the characteristics of normal orcs – their religion is focused around a dark god, they favour dark and destructive magics, have a propensity towards violence, and are intolerant of weakness. However, they have their own system of honour and sense of community, and when you have orcs as protagonists at various points in the story, it happens in an organic way through their essential orcishness, rather than happening because they’ve turned their backs on it or because it turns out they’ve actually been misunderstood all along.

    That, to me, is the right way to make a race that is generally evil (and AoW3 seems like orcs will indeed still default to evil) but which can be believably made to be nonevil – introduce some redeeming features that nonetheless do not interfere with what made them a ‘bad guy’ race to begin with… but which, if enhanced in a particular individual or by a particular set of circumstances, will naturally lead to shifting in their position on the alignment axis.

    #3699

    BlaneckW
    Member

    Orcs are conquerors, if all they wanted was to be Shaman they could have allied with the Elves.

    #3707

    b0rsuk
    Member
    #3709

    BlaneckW
    Member

    I’m alright with some Orcs taking the place of Elves in defending the forest or wilderness territories of their people, I would just prefer they not all go Archdruid.

    #3711

    Tomipapa
    Member

    Thats not an orc i think and as i said in the other topic this is not a warcraftized art.

    #3713

    Sordak
    Member

    i never precieved the Orcs in AoW as noble savages.
    Bloodthirsty conquerers more so.

    The noble savage trope is way too overused.

    #3724

    Calmar
    Member

    I really don’t like that “noble savage” concept from Warcraft. Orcs are basically borrowed from Tolkien, so why pretend to be reinventing the wheel when one is clearly using orcs. Orcs are cruel and evil – tribal warriors is something that would at best fit the Lizardmen.

    Since the first age, AoW orcs were brutal, militaristic people creaving conquest and power (and being manipulated by the Dark Elves [?]). Aggressivity, militarism and cruelty are basically ‘their thing’, just like halflings strive for a comfortable home and good food.

    And I don’t think that the Orcs’ hostile nature would mean they’d be on their way to exticntion – humans fight all the time, too, and do just fine most of the time. Maybe orcs reproduce quite fast, and maybe they’re on average pretty good at their thing, anyways. 🙂

     
    Orcs/Theocrat: they go to war against infidels.
    Orcs/Dreadnought: they fight for progress.
    Orcs/Druid: they go to war to save the environment.
    Orcs/Sorcerer: they go to war to fulfill the Dear Leader’s ambitions.
    Orcs/Rogue: they go to war because their enemies are subverted and weak, and the opportunity presents itself.
    Orcs/Warlord: they go to war because it’s the right thing to do. Tradition…
    Well, with Rogue and Warlord I basically agree. The way I see it, the rest should be more something like this:

    Orcs/Theocrat: they fight for the glory of the gods and to prove themselves as worthy.
    Orcs/Dreadnought: they fight with the most cruel engines of war [orcs do so since Tolkien, btw].
    Orcs/Druid: they fight with animal savagery, ever fiercer than their other kin.
    Orcs/Sorcerer: they serve out of fear or respect for their leader’s arcane might.

    #3726

    Draxynnic
    Member

    I don’t think we’re looking at a case of the orcs going all archdruid just because we’ve seen one example of an orc archdruid character. After all, the only goblin character we’ve been told about so far is a Theocrat of all things – I’m pretty sure that’s not actually going to be the default goblin class. Archdruid is, I think, a natural extension of the shamans in previous installments – albeit an archdruid more concerned with how the environment can serve them rather than vice versa – but I expect we’re going to see plenty of warlords, rogues, and sorcerors as well.

    #3735

    Sordak
    Member

    not the point.
    Any race can be of any class.

    Tho you bring up a point that made me think.
    Nameley how do the classes differ from a race to race basis.

    so just looking at the goblin theocrat so far it looks like they took the goblin base unit and put them in the armor of a theocrat special unit.
    But i doubt that the racial culture has no influence over the Class.

    Thinking about calmars suggestions there.
    Lets take an Archdruid for example. Lets say the first would be an Elven Archdruid.
    In that case the sentiment would be “preserve nature, and therfor call it to aid”
    On the other hand. An Orc Archdruid would perhaps be more of a “What better weapon of war could there be than the forces of nature?”

    Im wondering if we actually see some of that in the game.
    Cant wait to see some crazy combinations like a dwarf rogue, an elven juggernaut, an orc theocrat or a Draconian Archdruid.

    #3742

    Draxynnic
    Member

    I think the line is along the lines of any race can be any class, but fluffwise there are some combinations that are… unusual, to say the least… and some that are more to be expected. For instance, elf juggernaught would be an example of an unusual combination – that is nevertheless allowed so as to not restrict someone from being able to go ahead and do that if they so choose – while the class will likely be quite common among humans.

    That the example archdruid shown in the trailer happens to be an orc seems to imply that orcs might be a bit nature-based, raising the spectre of ‘warcraftisation’. Personally, I also think it’s a case of attitudes – the elf druid sees themself as serving nature, the orc druid sees it as forcing nature to serve them.

    #3747

    Steelhill
    Member

    The problem doesn’t seem to be with the class but more with the racial alignment that have been, an evil orc druid is not a big stretch and an elf juggernaut doesn’t have to be uncaring about the forest (can see it as a powerful resource that needs to be nurtured and handled) but what about a good orc druid? because really the noble savage thing every orc these days are becoming is getting old and they dont really fit to how AoW have portrayed orcs and their society.

    Its also easier to imagine some person from a good race getting the old power-kick and turning mad for power or money than an evil race suddenly getting a good individual getting power over their race (And no being a noble savage does not turn you “good” or not evil)

    #3748

    NEHZ
    Member

    Isn’t the whole point of having non-alignment fixed races that they will become how you want them to? If you have orcs and play them as evil conquers, this will be reflected in your alignment. To be honest, I believe that assuming that any orc race in games that’s not firmly trenched in evil is nobel, is rediculous. If other players convert their orcs to goody goodies and you don’t like it, send in your evil conquerers and teach them how orcs should really be.
    Should not being tied to good or evil in fantasy games really be the sole right of humans?
    Also, I havn’t kept up with the latest WoW lore, but in WC3 at least, with the exception of Thrall, the orcs were far from noble. Victims, sure, but still bloodthirsty and merciless creatures led by petty vengeance.

    #4121

    I am also against the warcraftizing of everything in fantasy games. Blizzard’s design of units seems to me terribly disgusting.

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