Please make lighting storm an area of effect.

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Please make lighting storm an area of effect.

This topic contains 36 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Ericridge 6 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #225210

    malaficus
    Member

    Right now lighting storm is the worst spell in the sorcerors arsanal(and argueable the game)
    The damage it does is pafatic.
    The cost is the same as a phatasm warrior(who has the advantage of being reusable)
    80 mana to hit a single stack and it still takes four attacks to take out a single stack of tier 1 units……
    Why anyone would waste that mana of lighting storm instead of four phatasm warriors is beyond me.
    Buffing the dammage woudnt solve the problem.
    Instead i suggest turning lighting storm into an area of effect.
    Reasonings:
    1: It suit’s the sorceror(who is supposed to be the best spellcaster in the game)
    2: It allows for breaking stalemate(cities gaurded by several armies)
    3: It would accauly encourge using the spell.
    4: It would compesate for the near worthless damage.

    If you dont believe the damage is worthless i suggest testing it against several different stacks of tier one units.
    You will notice how useless it is vs the weakest of enemy units…..So you can imangine its uselessness vs stronger units.

    #225213

    madmac
    Member

    Try it with Age of Magic

    Or Age of Magic+Storm Magic

    #225214

    quo
    Member

    I disagree. Lightning Storm is hell for Dreadnoughts to deal with. It’s a way for Sorcerors to remotely knockout Builders and Engineers, and also push the Dreadnought into an attrition situation. It’s not the same as a Phantom Warrior, which a Dreadnought would torch before it could do anywhere close to 15 damage to every unit in the stack. Imagine it’s also fairly good versus Necromancers.

    It’s not as good against living opponents who can heal, but not every spell is ideal for every situation.

    #225218

    quo
    Member

    BTW, it sounds like you are using Lightning Storm wrong. The right way to do it is to hammer the opponent with it right after they conclude a combat that left some of their units injured. Or hit them while they’re trying to wade through a Glyph of Warding. Or to take out Exalted or other Resurgent units who resurrected after the previous combat.

    #225247

    NINJEW
    Member

    you could use it the turn before a big fight to weaken the enemy stacks up significantly if they don’t have much healing, and still go into the battle with full cp

    #225266

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Or pre-load the spell, so you double cast it, then hit the enemy(perhaps depending on if you have other Heroes with spells to be useful, or extra cp remaining on your Leader).

    If nothing else, it’s almost automatically more generally useful than Sun Burst and Wrath of God(Armageddon aside), simply due to its use of the Shock elemental damage channel.

    #225303

    malaficus
    Member

    BTW, it sounds like you are using Lightning Storm wrong. The right way to do it is to hammer the opponent with it right after they conclude a combat that left some of their units injured. Or hit them while they’re trying to wade through a Glyph of Warding. Or to take out Exalted or other Resurgent units who resurrected after the previous combat.

    You do know that glyph of warding is easy to bypass?
    Just wait at the edge of a domain then rush the city in the next turn.
    No damage recieved what so ever.
    It is an other problem of the sorceror.

    Try it with Age of Magic

    Or Age of Magic+Storm Magic

    Storm magic in my experiance doesnt do a significant damage increase.
    And if i can cast age of magic i have already won……

    I disagree. Lightning Storm is hell for Dreadnoughts to deal with. It’s a way for Sorcerors to remotely knockout Builders and Engineers, and also push the Dreadnought into an attrition situation. It’s not the same as a Phantom Warrior, which a Dreadnought would torch before it could do anywhere close to 15 damage to every unit in the stack. Imagine it’s also fairly good versus Necromancers.

    It’s not as good against living opponents who can heal, but not every spell is ideal for every situation.

    Or i can just attack and use chain lighting.
    If my leader is present i can cast two chain lighting for 50 mana total that does more damage(and chain lighting also does little damage…..just like every other offensive spell in the game is weak)

    you could use it the turn before a big fight to weaken the enemy stacks up significantly if they don’t have much healing, and still go into the battle with full cp

    So it is useless the other 90%

    Or pre-load the spell, so you double cast it, then hit the enemy(perhaps depending on if you have other Heroes with spells to be useful, or extra cp remaining on your Leader).

    If nothing else, it’s almost automatically more generally useful than Sun Burst and Wrath of God(Armageddon aside), simply due to its use of the Shock elemental damage channel.

    So it is useless the other 90%

    To all:
    I am not saying it doesnt have uses.
    Just that it is almost never worth using it.

    Yes i could just spam them lategame with age of magic and storm magic.
    Problem is that if you reach that point you have already won.
    For that mather neither wraith of god or fireburst is worth casting.

    But i seem to be in the minnorty.
    Suchs a pity.

    #225308

    NINJEW
    Member

    So it is useless the other 90%

    why yes generally spells that target enemy armies aren’t useful unless it’s immediately before a battle

    this is true in the same way that mark of the heretic is useless the other 90% of the time

    do you think mark of the heretic is also a bad spell because if so lol

    also

    Storm magic in my experiance doesnt do a significant damage increase.

    it’s literally a 50% damage increase so i don’t know what your requirements are for “significant”

    direct damage spells are always going to be on the weak side because being able to just straight up maim an opponent with the touch of a button is fairly boring and doesn’t make for interesting gameplay the same way buffs and debuffs and using your actual units in combat do. lightning storm is a spell that does mild damage and also hurts a city’s economy. i don’t know what else you could ask from it that isn’t “let me win harder all the time because sorcerers deserve to be an even more top tier class than they already are”

    i mean like lets look at your reasoning here

    1: It suit’s the sorceror(who is supposed to be the best spellcaster in the game)
    2: It allows for breaking stalemate(cities gaurded by several armies)
    3: It would accauly encourge using the spell.
    4: It would compesate for the near worthless damage.

    1. sorcerer is the best caster in the game? what???
    2. this is what dread omen is for generally
    3. oh wow a buff encouraging use of what gets buffed you don’t say…
    4. pretty sure that’s what the city economic damage is for, as well as being able to injure an enemy army without actually risking combat with them. you realize what a big deal that is right?

    considering that every single other sorcerer research is incredibly powerful and very useful, i can’t honestly say that my heart cries out for a sorcerer spell buff. what would you be willing to give up in exchange for this buff? sorcerer is already a top tier class, if you want to buff sorc, there should probably be a proposed nerf to go along with it to keep the classes balanced.

    i suppose at the very least insted of costing 80 cp (a phantasm), the spell should be made to cost 110 cp (fantastic creature). that’s even assuming there’s a problem with the spell at all and that such a change is necessary.

    #225309

    NINJEW
    Member

    breaking news:

    dome of protection is pointless. it’s only useful if you’re being hit by strategic spells, and useless the other 90% of the time!

    dread omen is useless. it’s only useful when you’re about to attack an enemy city, and useless the other 90% of the time!

    enchanted walls is useless. it’s only useful when you’re about to have one of your cities attacked, and useless the other 90% of the time!

    what a poor argument

    #225324

    malaficus
    Member

    So it is useless the other 90%

    why yes generally spells that target enemy armies aren’t useful unless it’s immediately before a battle

    this is true in the same way that mark of the heretic is useless the other 90% of the time

    do you think mark of the heretic is also a bad spell because if so lol

    also

    Storm magic in my experiance doesnt do a significant damage increase.

    it’s literally a 50% damage increase so i don’t know what your requirements are for “significant”

    direct damage spells are always going to be on the weak side because being able to just straight up maim an opponent with the touch of a button is fairly boring and doesn’t make for interesting gameplay the same way buffs and debuffs and using your actual units in combat do. lightning storm is a spell that does mild damage and also hurts a city’s economy. i don’t know what else you could ask from it that isn’t “let me win harder all the time because sorcerers deserve to be an even more top tier class than they already are”

    i mean like lets look at your reasoning here

    1: It suit’s the sorceror(who is supposed to be the best spellcaster in the game)
    2: It allows for breaking stalemate(cities gaurded by several armies)
    3: It would accauly encourge using the spell.
    4: It would compesate for the near worthless damage.

    1. sorcerer is the best caster in the game? what???
    2. this is what dread omen is for generally
    3. oh wow a buff encouraging use of what gets buffed you don’t say…
    4. pretty sure that’s what the city economic damage is for, as well as being able to injure an enemy army without actually risking combat with them. you realize what a big deal that is right?

    considering that every single other sorcerer research is incredibly powerful and very useful, i can’t honestly say that my heart cries out for a sorcerer spell buff. what would you be willing to give up in exchange for this buff? sorcerer is already a top tier class, if you want to buff sorc, there should probably be a proposed nerf to go along with it to keep the classes balanced.

    i suppose at the very least insted of costing 80 cp (a phantasm), the spell should be made to cost 110 cp (fantastic creature). that’s even assuming there’s a problem with the spell at all and that such a change is necessary.

    First:
    50% extra damage is what?
    7 physical and 17 lighting instead of 5 pshyical and 15 lighting.
    Whoohoo, great now it takes 3 turns instead of four to finesh of a civic gaurd……
    Also sorceror isnt remotable powerfull.
    But you are correct my definition of powerfull is reality warper.
    Sometimes no game ever achieved.
    In comparision to age of wonders 3 classes however…..
    Every class(other then archdruid)
    Doesnt cast spells often, often have alot of spare mana and dont suffer for having to pay double the mana and casting point when you leader isnt there.
    Have better buff and debuff spells.
    Aswhile as moral boosting ability.
    Add to that two of the sorcerors summons are not worth getting(phatasm warrior beats both mana serpent and random fantasy creatuer in usefullness)
    Sorceror isnt weak but it definitly isnt powerfull.
    Because unlike lesser classes it does suffer from casting point limet.
    A limet far harder to break then building a few towns…….

    Also so far all reponses are about how to use lighting storm.
    Not why it having an area of effect would be overpowered.
    Also adding an area of effect woudnt even change the senario’s mention here.
    It only would make it more usefull.

    #225330

    NINJEW
    Member

    lol if you seriously think sorc isn’t a top tier class

    there’s a very good reason it’s the most picked class in the tourney

    #225341

    malaficus
    Member

    lol if you seriously think sorc isn’t a top tier class

    there’s a very good reason it’s the most picked class in the tourney

    And againt changing subjects rather then give valid reason.
    Tourney was if i recall correctly:
    Medium map, few towns?
    Short match’s that ended before entering late game?
    Before the last two patch’s that compleetly changed the game?

    Naturaly it was the most picked when stun was still usefull.
    You try stunning with sorceror recently?
    Or play on a large to extra large map where lategame is way more common?

    Give me a valid reason why adding an area of effect on spells like lighting storm would be overpowered, please.
    And stop changing the subject.
    Sorceror isnt powerfull.
    It isnt weak but it definilty isnt powerfull.
    Dont take my word for it.
    There is a poll somewhere on the forum where people vote on there favorite classes.
    Sorceror is the least voted.
    Also sorceror is the least encountered class in pbem.
    Lets agree to disagree on the subject of the sorcerors power.

    If anyone have a good reasons why adding a single hex area of effect to lighting storm is a bad idea we can put this debate to rest.
    So far i havent heard a single reasons just excueeses that it isnt that bad..

    #225345

    NINJEW
    Member

    wow the game balance changes on xl no way

    paging ericridge to comment on sorc xl potential i guess

    in any case, “don’t fix what ain’t broken” is the reason you’ve just been hearing “this isn’t bad.” you have to prove that there’s a problem in the first place before we even start to discuss the solution. no reason to waste time and effort and potentially create more problems to fix a problem that may or may not exist (so far overwhelming opinion is “does not exist” to boot)

    #225348

    ExNihil
    Member

    @Malaficius,

    Obviously you’ve played a lot of Sorcerer so you noted the problematic nature of Sorcerer units. Take a look in the thread called Node Serpent in which the Fantastic Creature and Node Serpent issue is discussed. Sorcerer is powerful in MP due to the shorter and more condensed nature of games and the summoning and tech buffs of Sorcerer are powerful advantages there that are only offsetted by such things as human cavalry evolution coupled with DN/TE/WL or AD variants.

    As for your point, I agree that lightning storm is not very powerful, I don’t think though it could or should be a combat spell. Sorcerer already has chain lightning, which is very good and powerful.

    What I’d like to see here is the CP reduced to 60 or even fifty.

    Dome of protection is good as is.

    Only other spell that needs some attention is dread siege which should also affect city morale negatively even if lightly for this upkeep, if not the spell should get reduced CP and a 4 turn timer instead.

    #225349

    NINJEW
    Member

    Only other spell that needs some attention is dread siege which should also affect city morale negatively even if lightly for this upkeep, if not the spell should get reduced CP and a 4 turn timer instead.

    dread seige is the warlord spell, you’re thinking of dread omen

    also why

    #225352

    ExNihil
    Member

    Yes, indeed- its a 40/mana a turn upkeep spell, which is fucking insane, and it debuffs pop growht?! and unit morale. Why the hell would you maintain this spell with a summoner class? This is a very ill conceived spell in my opinion, it should be either a 3-5 turn long effect on the city, debuffing all stationed units in the domain and its morale, or a a serious debuff for this kind of upkeep. Or simply reduce the upkeep by half.

    Also, I agree with Ninjew from some other thread (thread?) that these spells should never spawn on game start in your spell book!!

    #225355

    NINJEW
    Member

    yeah your start book shouldn’t contain spells that aren’t useful to you until you meet another player

    lightning storm might be neat as a starting spell. cast it before attacking a site to weaken it and improve your clearing before you have phantasms online. kinda like theo earlygame with mark heretic

    why would dread omen need a buff though, it seems like a perfectly good and powerful battlefield debuff.

    #225358

    ExNihil
    Member

    As a summoner class you are not going to be able to do a 40 mana/turn debuff on a city unless its something you plan for very precisely, and this might very well kill you. Its not worth it.

    If Lightning storm was 50CP it would be worth it to throw on some sites instead of getting an extra unit, its a bit more than the price of a wisp but less then the price of a PW.

    #225359

    NINJEW
    Member

    well the steep mana upkeep cost is there to encourage you to attack the turn you cast, rather than run off and wait for the defenders to desert. if you take the city immediately after casting you don’t have to pay the upkeep cost at all. it’s not a spell you should be planning on leaving on at all anyways, so i don’t see why that’s an issue.

    #225360

    NINJEW
    Member

    side note: i’ve had dread seige get cast on my cities before without an incoming attack and having a full stack of butchers desert at a critical moment in a tourney game is a very frustrating experience, and i’m glad it’s not encouraged

    #225366

    ExNihil
    Member

    If you attack immediately after casting you are 60CP short or at least a substantial amount of CP short, and if you attack after that you have 40 mana upkeep a turn to carry around, thats the problem with this spell. Its Ok, but it is actually something I wouldn’t mind to maintain for prolonged periods of time IF it was more sensibly priced, say 30 mana upkeep a turn instead of 40.

    For 40, it should affect morale instead of population growth directly, say -100 morale to the city directly.

    #225371

    NINJEW
    Member

    you can cast it and go into battle with full cp in the same turn if you preload it the turn before

    #225388

    malaficus
    Member

    wow the game balance changes on xl no way

    paging ericridge to comment on sorc xl potential i guess

    in any case, “don’t fix what ain’t broken” is the reason you’ve just been hearing “this isn’t bad.” you have to prove that there’s a problem in the first place before we even start to discuss the solution. no reason to waste time and effort and potentially create more problems to fix a problem that may or may not exist (so far overwhelming opinion is “does not exist” to boot)

    Ah but it is broken.
    As i have been trying to explain.
    It isnt worth using.
    Sure i can use it.
    But why would i when i have better things to spend my mana on.
    And as i keep trying to explain.
    Sorcerors are mana starved from the get go.
    Unlike other classes we dont benifet from army upgrade, moral boost’s, good buff and debuffs(we get buff’s and debuff’s but other classes just get better buff’s and debuff’s)
    By the time i reach late game chaos rifting every town is indeed possible.
    But getting there is very difficult against any compented player.
    Chaos rift is still usefull(even with the 4 turn nerf)
    As it does both damage and summon reforcemence.
    Chain lighting cost 25 mana(50 if leader isnt present)
    It does do the same damage to an enemy for less cost.

    In comparision a warlord get upgrade that make’s there units stronger, cheaper, and unlike spells units are reusable.
    Theocrat can get heal on there troops, moral boost, increase income, and prevent everone for regenrating and give there enemy’s spirit weakness.
    A necromancer gets lifestealing troops, the best reqruiter and heal from the start.
    The rogue can make the entire empire revolt againt you.
    Etc, etc, etc.
    No other class is as mana starved as a sorceror.
    We have to pay mana upkeep for our summons, pay mana and casting points for our spells, and for our domain spells.
    Troops cost gold upleep.
    Gold is plentyfull.
    Every town makes gold by default.
    You need atleast a shrine to get a town producing mana.
    Also you cant summon when your leader is in the void but other classes can still build there class troops.
    And everyone knows the most valabue resourse is turns.
    The more turns you are spending on something the more turns your enemy has to kill you.
    There is a reason why theocrat’s, warlords and necromancers are the easiest classes to play.
    They can upgrade there troops.
    There heroes can upgrade there troops.
    There spell’s can upgrade there troops.
    A sorceror’s relies on his spells instead of his troops.
    That means dealing with mana starvasion, research focus, double casting cost and limeted casting points.
    Age of magic doesnt make a sorceror stronger.
    It only remove’s what makes it weak in the first place.
    The way to high mana cost.

    #225391

    malaficus
    Member

    wow the game balance changes on xl no way

    paging ericridge to comment on sorc xl potential i guess

    in any case, “don’t fix what ain’t broken” is the reason you’ve just been hearing “this isn’t bad.” you have to prove that there’s a problem in the first place before we even start to discuss the solution. no reason to waste time and effort and potentially create more problems to fix a problem that may or may not exist (so far overwhelming opinion is “does not exist” to boot)

    Also if it aint broken dont fix it can be countered with:
    Improvement is what drive’s out technologie.
    After all why improve on cellphone’s if they aint broken.
    Or why invent foto’s when we have painting’s.

    Also why cant i edit my previous post…..

    #225399

    malaficus
    Member

    I am quitting this debate before i lose an other favorite game.

    #225408

    quo
    Member

    This spell does not need a buff. You do not need to be able to annihilate enemies armies from afar without having to engage them. The spell delivers approx 90 damage in total across a stack of 6 (135 if you have Storm Magic). Machine armies take an additional 40% damage on top of that (126 or 189).

    Even looking at it without any buffs at all, 15 damage is the same as a unit with Mark of the Heretic striking 5 times against every unit without risking any engagement with the enemy. And you can cast it back to back to stack this benefit.

    A CP of 80 becomes 40 with Age of Magic, which allows Sorcerors to hit twice in quick succession. Lowering this CP at all would make Sorcerors able to just obliterate Machine stacks without even fielding a real army.

    The point of the spell is not that you get to blast enemies away without fighting them at all (altho there is an element of that too, because the spell makes it too risky for the enemy to have any injured units within your LoS). The point is that you can seriously damage enemies anywhere you can see them and then swoop in and finish them off. It doesn’t work particularly well against Theocrats. It’s potentially devastating to Dreadnoughts and Necromancers because you can pick off their healers and leave them with no regen.

    There is one tactical damage spell that I would agree doesn’t work well, but that one is the Theocrat spell Wrath of God. It doesn’t work against Machines, removing one of the best uses of Lightning Storm (and Sunfire) and the Theocrat already has a strong need for tactical debuffs before attacking (Mark of the Heretic).

    #225414

    malaficus
    Member

    This spell does not need a buff. You do not need to be able to annihilate enemies armies from afar without having to engage them. The spell delivers approx 90 damage in total across a stack of 6 (135 if you have Storm Magic). Machine armies take an additional 40% damage on top of that (126 or 189).

    Even looking at it without any buffs at all, 15 damage is the same as a unit with Mark of the Heretic striking 5 times against every unit without risking any engagement with the enemy. And you can cast it back to back to stack this benefit.

    A CP of 80 becomes 40 with Age of Magic, which allows Sorcerors to hit twice in quick succession. Lowering this CP at all would make Sorcerors able to just obliterate Machine stacks without even fielding a real army.

    The point of the spell is not that you get to blast enemies away without fighting them at all (altho there is an element of that too, because the spell makes it too risky for the enemy to have any injured units within your LoS). The point is that you can seriously damage enemies anywhere you can see them and then swoop in and finish them off. It doesn’t work particularly well against Theocrats. It’s potentially devastating to Dreadnoughts and Necromancers because you can pick off their healers and leave them with no regen.

    There is one tactical damage spell that I would agree doesn’t work well, but that one is the Theocrat spell Wrath of God. It doesn’t work against Machines, removing one of the best uses of Lightning Storm (and Sunfire) and the Theocrat already has a strong need for tactical debuffs before attacking (Mark of the Heretic).

    Thank you.
    I do not agree but you atleast give reasons i can understand.

    #225415

    quo
    Member

    I will make one concession. I could see the tactical attack spells getting the “prevents healing on tactical map” effect for 1 turn to prevent the damage from just healing back at the start of the enemy’s next turn. That would be as far as I’d be willing to take any of those spells.

    #225418

    malaficus
    Member

    I will make one concession. I could see the tactical attack spells getting the “prevents healing on tactical map” effect for 1 turn to prevent the damage from just healing back at the start of the enemy’s next turn. That would be as far as I’d be willing to take any of those spells.

    That would work too.

    Snip.

    Thank you.
    I do not agree but you atleast give reasons i can understand.

    I didnt take into consideration that the sorceror would indeed be overpowered if it didnt start with those weakness.
    I still believe the sorceror is weak.
    But i now understand why.
    Otherwise we would simply walk over all other classes.

    #225421

    quo
    Member

    Well I am willing to admit Lightning Storm looks underpowered compared to one ridiculously OP set of spells, the “nukes” Hellfire and Earthquake. These spells are apparently balanced around quick PVP games and not longer SP games where games go on for longer. These spells make it possible to roll into a fight with a sacrificial unit and basically nuke every unit in the enemy army.

    Hellfire for example costs 50 CP and deals 50 Fire damage to all units on the battlefield. (A Frostling army takes 50 * 1.4 = 70 damage per unit, even more if they are Undead). That’s just 25 CP for a Sorceror with Age of Magic. It’s ridiculous to the point of game breaking in longer games. Luckily the AI doesn’t seem to use it. I don’t use it as a player because I consider it broken. It’s the first thing I’m going to edit when we got mod capabilities, because it is outrageously, indefensibly overpowered, only balanced in quick PVP where there is more risk of being killed before you can research the spell.

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