POLL: New Race vs Expanding Races

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions POLL: New Race vs Expanding Races

This topic contains 33 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by  Yelok 7 years, 11 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 34 total)
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  • #143230

    Unknown250
    Member

    Suppose that after the release of the upcoming DLC, Triumph were to announce “Hey, good news! We’re doing a third one!” Now imagine they were to announce “But there’s bad news! We want to make two changes, but only have enough time for one. The first change would be adding in a new race. The second change would be taking the races we have now and expanding them – giving them all a couple of race-specific buildings, adding in another racial T3 and maybe even reintroducing racial T4s, and some other fun stuff.”

    Which of those would you prefer?

    Second question (which you can answer regardless of how you answered the first one):

    Do you think racial T4s would be a good thing, or would it upset the game structure and balance too much?

    #143231

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Racial T4s would upset the game balance too much. Another T3 might be good, but would also require a lot of balancing, probably more than a single new race (or perhaps even two) would require.

    Anyway, I couldn’t decide which I would prefer. I would be happy to see new races (Especially Tigrans and the Archons) or the existing races expanded, though I do think the latter would require something else (If it is just one unit extra for each race, then that is, as of the Frostlings, only 8 new units) to make it an expansion rather than DLC.

    (I do think I would happily pay for an Extra Racial unit pack DLC though, once they finish the expansions)

    #143234

    Thariorn
    Member

    Concerning your 1st question, I’m all for more fleshed out races –As I can’t think of any of the older races to be needed that much…– but I’m not in favor of racial T4s.

    Remaking the 8 races to be more like Shadow Magic would just mean people didn’t like the Classmechanic at all, just wanting AoW:SM 2.0…….
    ALSO, I think Mods are the way to go for racial\more T4s, aswell as more races –Tho this is limited by the amount of tools we’ll be getting for e.g. custom models\artwork

    #143236

    Gloweye
    Member

    I think I’d prefer additional racial units, but i’m kinda waiting for the changes were gonna get along with Necro DLC. I’m hoping for thinks like racial researches and the like(For example, need to have at least 40% of a race to research them, and at least 35% needs to be the correct race for them to function). Same hope for alignment.

    #143237

    Unknown250
    Member

    Thanks for the replies, everyone. Interesting stuff so far.

    One thing I do want to respond to:

    (If it is just one unit extra for each race, then that is, as of the Frostlings, only 8 new units) to make it an expansion rather than DLC.

    It’s worth noting that adding a new race would get you seven new units, so adding one extra for each race would actually get you more.

    Also, for the sake of this experiment, assume it’s a full expansion. Assume it’s something like Golden Realms, where new mechanics and dwellings and independent units and specializations and campaigns and all that sort of thing are being added alongside the new/expanded race(s).

    #143238

    Yelok
    Member

    My call stands http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/poll-what-2-races-in-next-expansion/page/2/#post-140266. However, I dont see the devs doing something like that, because it involves tons and tons of work and balancing, and, there are some veteran people who refuses the idea, my last hope are the mod tools.

    #143239

    Dessad
    Member

    That’s a tough question to answer, but ultimately I’d probably say “New Race”. With these kinds of games, “replayability” is one of the main attractions/concerns for me, and whenever you add new races into the ‘mix’, you’re usually ensuring a whole new kind of gameplay. The great thing is that, with the class and specialization systems, adding a new race doesn’t just add one new gameplay “path”–but several, as there are suddenly a multitude of new combinations to try. That said, the thought of improving the existing races, isn’t bad–it’s just not as ‘big and shiny”.

    I’m not that interested in racial T4s, to be honest. I would be more interested in seeing many, many more dwellings–with T4 units–added to the game. Balancing the races/classes/specs, etc. is already a delicate thing. I prefer the idea of adding more dwellings because they are a kind of asymetrical add-on to each map: they’re random and they add interesting choices to both your conquest and political goals. In other words, they add a ton of replayability and are smaller/easier to balance/manage from a design standpoint. There are hundreds of great ideas for new dwellings, which most people seem to like.

    #143240

    Ravenholme
    Member

    That’s a tough question to answer, but ultimately I’d probably say “New Race”. With these kinds of games, “replayability” is one of the main attractions/concerns for me, and whenever you add new races into the ‘mix’, you’re usually ensuring a whole new kind of gameplay. The great thing is that, with the class and specialization systems, adding a new race doesn’t just add one new gameplay “path”–but several, as there are suddenly a multitude of new combinations to try. That said, the thought of improving the existing races, isn’t bad–it’s just not as ‘big and shiny”.

    I think that is one of the most salient points about this debate. A New Race is certainly more bang for buck.

    I like the idea of extra racial T3s or so, but I would not want them to be the big addition in an expansion. As I mentioned at the end of my first post here, if that were to happen, I would be happy if it was a small DLC after the expansions have finished. It would need to be paid for, because it does have a development cost, but I would rather see the expansions focus on bigger things, and in AoW3 terms those things are really new races/classes or mechanics.

    #143241

    Unknown250
    Member

    Oh, I forgot to say that I definitely agree with this:

    Remaking the 8 races to be more like Shadow Magic would just mean people didn’t like the Classmechanic at all, just wanting AoW:SM 2.0…….<br>

    One of the things I’ve always liked about the AoW series is that each new iteration is unique enough that it doesn’t replace its predecessor (unless we count AoW 2 and SM as different games, in which case, yes, SM made AoW 2 completely redundant). I loved SM, but I still played the snot out of AoW 1. Today, AoW 3 is possibly my favourite game, but I still play a whole bunch of SM and AoW 1. The games are all different enough in feel and playstyle that I keep coming back to all of them. When I miss SM, I play SM. I don’t boot up AoW 3 and sit there wishing it was more like SM.

    I guess what I’m saying is that I think it’s better to allow Triumph to push their vision for AoW 3 rather than trying to make the game more like the earlier ones. Most of the additions and changes that AoW 3 made are things that I’ve really come to love.

    #143242

    Dr_K
    Member

    It’s worth noting that adding a new race would get you seven new units, so adding one extra for each race would actually get you more.

    Not really. Each new race will get you 7 completely new units for the race itself, but all of the class-dependent racial units also will need to be balanced (and added). So you are actually getting about 26 new units with the addition of a race.

    Also the addition of a new race introduces significantly more gameplay possibilities than just one unit per race.

    #143245

    UltraDD
    Member

    Neither. I’d vote for more spells in the game since I miss magic fest battles from SM :P.

    #143291

    Jaduggar
    Member

    Do you think racial T4s would be a good thing, or would it upset the game structure and balance too much?

    I was initially planning on voting for a new race, here, simply because I oppose racial t4’s, but since you asked this question on the side, I can answer it more directly. I do not want racial t4’s; I like that t4s are tough to acquire and powerful, as well as being solely class based, rather than racially available (otherwise, you would probably always wind up using your favorite t4’s every game, regardless of your class/race combo, and that would get old fast). I really dont want new racial t3’s either, to be honest, although I would like to see a “step up” sort of roster implemented for the basic unit types.

    By this, I mean a t2 archer/pikemen/infantry in addition to the basic t1’s… probably with one such type being available for each race. Sort of how the goblins will be getting a t2 pikemen, except that each race would have one t2 “stepped up” unit. a t2 archer for elves, a t2 infantry for orcs… you get the idea.

    Also, as I have said in more than one thread before now, I really want to see frigates and Galleons get their own racial variants.

    All in all, I guess I am divided on the issue.I do not want racial t4’s at all…. period. But, there are many ways in which the existing races could be expanded, and some of them would make me alot happier than getting a new race would.

    Still…. I vote “New Race”.

    With these kinds of games, “replayability” is one of the main attractions/concerns for me, and whenever you add new races into the ‘mix’, you’re usually ensuring a whole new kind of gameplay. The great thing is that, with the class and specialization systems, adding a new race doesn’t just add one new gameplay “path”–but several, as there are suddenly a multitude of new combinations to try.

    the addition of a new race introduces significantly more gameplay possibilities than just one unit per race.

    These are great points, and they tend to be the sort of reasoning which causes me to settle on “New Race”. I want more content, and more combinations. Racial t4s are going to pop up every single game if they are implemented, and do nothing to expand the variety of gameplay, besides. New races, new classes, and new specializations… these are the things that will keep this game alive longer.

    Neither. I’d vote for more spells in the game since I miss magic fest battles from SM :P .

    I wouldnt turn down any DLC or Expansion which promised me a great big bagful of magic. I really dont feel deprived in any way, right now, but more spells is often better. I might prefer if they came on as new spheres, though, rather than as expansions to existing ones.

    #143292

    ESCL
    Member

    Tough one, but I’m with Gloweye on waiting for the new racial changes before I can have a clear opinion. After that I’d probably still say more racial units, although not any more T4:s. Still, I can’t really see an expansion without a new race or class – doesn’t really feel like Triumph’s style.

    #143294

    Taykor
    Member

    Neither. I’d vote for more spells in the game since I miss magic fest battles from SM 😛 .

    Oh, yes. I miss it very much, too. Spheres in SM had around 20 spells, in AoW3 they have 8. No wonder everything is researched so soon in games.

    I might prefer if they came on as new spheres, though, rather than as expansions to existing ones.

    For me this is useless, I want more spells in every single game, not more spells in the game generally. So definitely more spells in existing spheres.

    #143309

    Gloweye
    Member

    I must say I agree very much with specializations giving more spells/skills per spec, instead of adding many new ones. Many could give for example damage boosts to your units of their chosen element. I think the sphere’s could easily be doubled in size.

    #143316

    Spheres in AoW2 might have had 20 spells, but now you have an average of 30 class skills per class, + 8 spells per mastery, so you can angle for 12 + 30 spells, so 42 in total on average.

    I personally would like for there to be a new level of Spell Mastery, so that the current Mastery, which is 2 picks, becomes Journeyman, and new Mastery (3 picks) has some game ending ultra cool stuff, like raising or lowering mountains for Earth Master.

    #143318

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Spheres in AoW2 might have had 20 spells, but now you have an average of 30 class skills per class, + 8 spells per mastery, so you can angle for 12 + 30 spells, so 42 in total on average.

    I personally would like for there to be a new level of Spell Mastery, so that the current Mastery, which is 2 picks, becomes Journeyman, and new Mastery (3 picks) has some game ending ultra cool stuff, like raising or lowering mountains for Earth Master.

    If something like that were to happen, I would support raising the number of available specialisations to four. (Actually, as the expansions come out, I support that anyway)

    #143328

    Having more impressive map changing spells in the game, through whatever means, would definitely make for more impressive and wacky strategies. Having a tier of super spells would potentially allow for the kind of wacky game changers that older games had, like enchanting a whole city to fly in the original MoM so only fliers could attack it. MoM had some pretty crazy top end super spells. Even something as simple as improved terraforming to raise/lower mountains and water and make volcano/lava would be quite cool.

    Granted that sort of thing would only see use very rarely in an actual game unless you specifically set the game up to have crazy fast research etc. but it would certainly be flashy and cool to see. Definitely something to show off to new players and current veterans would get a kick out of it as well.

    #143335

    SaintTodd
    Member

    Remaking the 8 races to be more like Shadow Magic would just mean people didn’t like the Classmechanic at all, just wanting AoW:SM 2.0…….<br>
    ALSO, I think Mods are the way to go for racial\more T4s, aswell as more races –Tho this is limited by the amount of tools we’ll be getting for e.g. custom models\artwork

    The more I think about it, that’s the way I feel. I never played older versions, but I feel like the class system was a mistake. Balancing has been extremely complicated, and is absolutely necessary. I think if they had chosen a more customizable class system (with more specializations), balancing could be more left up to the players. Plus, I’d like to be able to build the army I want and choose my own weaknesses.
    I really hope for some serious mods down the road, and if we get them, I’ll probably never go back to vanilla.

    #143341

    @ Saint Todd, then go get Shadow Magic! :).

    #143357

    Althea
    Member

    I vote for new races.

    Regarding T4 for races, i’m totally against that.

    But for expanding existing races, rather than adding T4, i think a more creative expansion to races are better than just adding T4. T4 are for classes, so let it remain that way.

    Here is my idea about expanding races, albeit this one is rather too dreamy (and too ambitious?)

    E.g: Add racial culture which means sub faction or sub race. I’m almost totally blind regarding high elf lore, but i’ll just assume for this example that High elves have 3 cultures, each culture have different line up (T1, T2, T3). Example: House of Inioch have T3 support (no gryphon rider for this one), House of something has Gryphon rider, other house have different T3 (T3 pikemen?). These sub races can be made to restrict but give new options to the classes they choose (perhaps with specialized research the restriction can be removed). Of course this is a massive expansion upon existing races which will require much work to implement (not to mention the balance test). Anyway that’s just a brainstorming from me.

    #143362

    Taykor
    Member

    Spheres in AoW2 might have had 20 spells, but now you have an average of 30 class skills per class, + 8 spells per mastery, so you can angle for 12 + 30 spells, so 42 in total on average.

    Actually, you could take one whole sphere plus one half of another in AoW:SW, so ~30 spells (plus cosmos spells). Second, number of class spells:
    AD 40 skills – 17 empire upgrades = 23 spells
    DN 38 – 22 = 16
    RG 38 – 17 = 21
    SR 39 – 13 = 26
    TC 37 – 16 = 21
    WL 38 – 20 = 18
    Thus, something like 21 spells on average plus 12, so 33 (plus avatar spells).
    Seems on a par. Though some specs don’t have spells at all.
    But for me main problem is that strategic spells aren’t impressive: there are too many economic spells and world enchants which are simply unit buffs.

    If something like that were to happen, I would support raising the number of available specialisations to four. (Actually, as the expansions come out, I support that anyway)

    Yes, I suggested this somewhere, too.

    Having more impressive map changing spells in the game, through whatever means, would definitely make for more impressive and wacky strategies.

    I have created an entire topic devoted to this: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/areal-strategic-spells/

    #143369

    Aennor
    Member

    I’m also against racial t4
    I’m for more unique class-race dependency – instead of just “one size fits all”, something like “High Elf Berserk = Blade Dancer”, I hope you get an idea 😀

    Though it’s just my dreaming 😀

    #143476

    Draxynnic
    Member

    I’m inclined to think that there is some point at which adding new races just isn’t adding much – but I don’t think we’re at, or too close to, that point yet. I’d take races in the third expansion, and possibly the fourth, but at some point I think that expansions to the existing races may start looking more attractive than yet another new race to the lineup.

    Of course, at that point, expanding the races may well take more work than adding a new race under the same parameters. You get out what you put in, after all…

    #143731

    joey1776
    Member

    I would vote to expand current races- especially racial passives. The halfling racial passive is a unique and tactically battle changing attribute.

    Compare this with the human mariner or draconian regeneration which are nice but just don’t have the same “wow” factor.

    I’d really like to see racial passive that force players to adapt their strategies accordingly. Examples include:

    Orc- “Deathly Battlerage” Melee damage dealt by Orcs is increased based on their missing health, and ranged damage received by Orcs is reduced based on missing health.

    Draconian- “Flight Mastery” Draconian non-flyer units gain +3 damage against flyers, and Draconian flyer units have a % chance to instantly kill enemy flying units when attacking.

    Goblin- “Horde Mentality” All Goblin units gain +1 damage and mind control immunity as long as there are more goblins on the battlefield than enemy units.

    Human- “Heroic Admiration” As long as there is a human hero on the battlefield, all human units gain +1 Defense, +1 Damage and a permanent mighty meek enchantment. These benefits are lost if the hero dies in combat.

    Dwarves- “Thick Skin” If a single attack or spell would deal more than 10 damage, that attack or spell is reduced to 10 damage instead.

    High Elf- “Ancient Guardians” If high elves are defending rather than attacking, all high elf units gain +200 morale and +2 resistance. This bonus is doubled in forest or dense vegetation and halved in cities.

    #143750

    UltraDD
    Member

    Deathly Barrage : This is very bad. Orcs are getting a racial ability anyway in the expansion (Warcry, Dwarves also might get defensive strike).

    Flight Mastery : One shotting enemy fliers is way too strong for an already versatile unit. Beside a lot of other fliers are bulkier\bigger than draco fliers and look like they can mob the floor with them :P.

    Horde Mentality : Humans are the ones who usually get will power stuff not goblins. Goblins like backstabbing their allies :P.

    Heroic Admiration : Spam tier 1 units autowin. Mightmeek isn’t a weak spell! The other bonuses can be already gotten if you play as warlord anyway.

    Thick Skin : So.. All of their units are impossible to be killed below 3-4 turns? They are already the tankiest they don’t need any defense buffs. People are already complaining about their priests being infantry with firebolts :P.

    Ancient Guardians : Why would elves get happier while their cities are getting sieged? The only ones who’d love that are orcs.

    Btw draconicon extra regen is a very solid reason to pick them :P.

    #143772

    Althea
    Member

    Btw draconicon extra regen is a very solid reason to pick them .

    Yeah it can be a significant factor to decide the difference in the creeping speed compared to other races, both with autocombat or not.

    #144400

    Yelok
    Member

    Since we have new info with the dev journals, I think, this debate must be reopened.

    With the race upgrade system, a new opportunity is open, what about if they add racial T4 with 4 or 5 upgrade. Based on dev´s info, 5 grade is obtainable around turn 100, and paragon often triggers earlier.

    #144417

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Since we have new info with the dev journals, I think, this debate must be reopened.

    With the race upgrade system, a new opportunity is open, what about if they add racial T4 with 4 or 5 upgrade. Based on dev´s info, 5 grade is obtainable around turn 100, and paragon often triggers earlier.

    I’m still against Racial T4s, because even coming in that late in the game, they are a balance nightmare.

    #144471

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I think we have enough RACIAL units. Remember: the main purpose of race is giving something of a groundwork of units, that should be modified by CLASS units. Fleshing races too well out with units would make class units less interesting, especially for production purpose.

    The way I perceive that, there is a fine line: expand racial units AND racial diversity too much, and it makes more sense to have only SUMMONING classes anymore.

    I think, that with the 2nd expansion no more work on “race” should nbe necessary, so with the choices given, that left the option “new race” – and why not?

    However, I’d see other things on the list as more important: modding tools, for example. And I could imagine a couple more dwellings (Dark Elven, for example), plus a twist, making dwellings even more interesting, maybe a specialization (Diplomacy? with a couple of techs making dwelling units/production better and allowing full army integration)…

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