December 23, 2014 at 18:53 #142377
I can give 3 examples of elite ranger units:
“T3, 40 atk musket, 13 melee, 50 hp, 30 speed, 9 def, 10 res, seeker, concealment terrain (it can change respecting the race), urban concealment and fire bomb without any medal”
“T3, 15 normal bow, 15 melee, 55-60 hp, 32 speed, 9 def, 10 res, racial stuff without any medal”
“T3, 16 longbow, 10 melee, 60 hp, 32 speed, sprint, 10 def, 11 res, armored, seeker, without any medal”
As a side note: Yesterday I was producing greatswords with 18 atk, so, is 18 ranged damage so much?
Related to lizark folk, I think, we wont have lizards in AoW 3, but it could be interesting if we see an evolved lizard crew. At AoW 1, we can see a more aquatic oriented lizard race, with amphibian support. What about a lizard race with units like pterodactyl (air), basilisk (water-earth), some sort of T-Rex oriented unit (earth), and more stuff like that.December 24, 2014 at 03:18 #142473
Vote 1: Dark Elves
Why? I always loved the mix of Elvish elegance and dark attitude.
Ah, those Blade Dancers …
Vote 2: Lizardmen
Why? Because the game lacks of an amphibious race and there is much potential when it comes to Lizardmen and unit design.
Imagine the mounts or some units could be some dinosaurs: Velociraptor, Allosaurus or Spinosaurus, or flyers like the Pteranodon.
And instead of siege machines they use dinos like the Triceratops or the Stegosaurus.
Games Workshop has some nice Lizardmen models too (for inspiration).December 24, 2014 at 04:09 #142487
As a side note: Yesterday I was producing greatswords with 18 atk, so, is 18 ranged damage so much?
When compared to existing ranged units in the game – yes. Keep in mind that ranged damage has multiple advantages over melee damage – reduced exposure to retaliation, flanking, and being attacked in general, ability to strike earlier in the battle, greater ability to concentrate fire from multiple units on a single foe, ability to threaten a wider area of the battlefield from a single position, and so on. It has to do less damage to limit its ability to totally annihilate an approaching enemy without the latter ever having the ability to strike back. Melee units are supposed to be able to reasonably quickly and decisively resolve combats once they get into melee, to compensate for the portion of the battle they spent simply marching forward, possibly under fire, dealing no damage at all.
Your 18-attack greatswords are coming off one of the tier 1s with the highest base attack value, and has to have some additional bonus as well as medals. More importantly, compare it to higher-tier units with similar roles. As you go up in tiers, damage output only increases gradually – higher-tier units generally gain durability and special abilities rather than large amounts of raw damage compared to their lower-tier counterparts.
At the bottom line, a ranged specialist unit (let along a hybrid) has to be compared to existing ranged specialists of the same tier. At tier 3, those specialists are things like trebuchets, cannons, and flame tanks: if your proposal is significantly stronger than those, it’s probably too much. At tier 4, the ranged specialists are the Shrine of Smiting and the Juggernaut – if a tier 3 unit would outdamage a Shrine with a healthy retinue of Devoted units, then you’ve massively overshot the mark.
The musketeer (rifleman?) proposal you make would probably be reasonable, although I wouldn’t be inclined to give it no cover penalties at base. If it doesn’t have a cooldown, I invoke the comparison rule: 40 attack with no ranged penalties, and particularly with no cover, is better than the Shrine of Smiting.
The other two you suggest are both violating the “better than a Shrine of Smiting with five accompanying devout units” rule. You have made them fairly glass-cannony, but as noted above, the trend in the game is that higher tiers become tougher faster than they increase their damage output rather than the other way around.
The mounted archer, as previously discussed, is a tier 2 melee/ranged hybrid, and it has only two damage higher than the tier 1 archers. Extrapolating, I would expect a “Charioteer scheme” tier 3 to have 12 damage before racial modifiers and medals, if it defaults to using a bow. Keep in mind that becomes 36 damage when firing from green, so even at a relatively low increase in damage output it already has the potential to have a higher single-target damage output than any of its tier 3 counterparts (cannons, trebuchets, etc): however, due to having less special abilities and having to do more to set up that damage, this is probably reasonable.
A “centaur scheme” might reach the dizzying heights of 13, maybe even 14 (but with reservations) base ranged attack, if its melee capability was suitably low. However, I would not give it that and inherent Seeker. The requirement to get into closer range, find clear angles of fire, and so on, is part of what keeps that kind of potential alpha-strike capability under control.December 24, 2014 at 09:02 #142508
Apparently it is possible to have two races in one expansion
Wait, what makes you say that? We only got one race in our last DLC, what makes you presume we can get two?December 24, 2014 at 13:11 #142571
There was mention at one point that the expansion would have “at least one” new race, being the Frosties – implying that Triumph is open to having multiple races in one expansion, if time and resources allow.
(And really, with other announced new features and a new class, if there are two or more races as well than that should clear up the question of whether it’s “expansion-worthy” as opposed to DLC.)December 24, 2014 at 19:14 #142648
Archons were my favorites in AOW2 and I would love to get them. Best Romans in the game 😀
I also loved the Nomads. And now that there are just 1 elf breed instead of 2, well, I wanted to say I liked the dark elves but we can’t have that anymore.
Anyway. My vote would be Archons. But if it’s not their time to come in the game because of story and stuff, I would settle for any of the following:
Thank you.December 24, 2014 at 22:24 #142697
I made some test and based on the results, if we have high elven mounted archers with elite medal and focus chamber, we will get 17p+2s damage longbow.
Subject 1: High elven unicorn riders (recruit)
Damage while they are defending: 10-14p+1-2s; 5-7p+1s with obstacles
Damage while they are not defending: 15-18p+1-2s; 6-9p+1-2s with obstacles
Subject 2: Draconian warbreeds (recruit)
Damage while they are defending: 10-14p+1-2s; 5-7p+1s with obstacles
Damage while they are not defending: 12-18p+1-3s; 6-9p+1-2s with obstacles
Subject 3: Dwarven manticore raiders (recruit)
Damage while they are defending: 8-12p+1-2s; 4-6p+1s with obstacles
Damage while they are not defending: 12-18p+1-2s; 6-9p+1s with obstacles
Subject 4: Golden dragons (recruit)
Damage while they are defending: 5-8p+1s; 3-4p+1s with obstacles
Damage while they are not defending: 9-13p+1-2s; 5-7p+1s with obstacles
I think, t3 archers are posible with 13-14 ranged damage, but, they must have a poor defense and hp.December 24, 2014 at 23:11 #142703
Yeah, focus chamber high elf mounted archers are a thing – that some people consider overpowered as it is (I consider it an appropriate reward for getting the right combination of elements going, but then, I haven’t had a game yet where they’ve played a significant role). Nevertheless, the presence of such things do need to be accounted for when considering the base power of an archer-type unit.
Thus, I would consider 13-14 to be a hard cap for a highly specialised T3 archer – and even then I’d be sceptical (considering that high-tier units tend to go towards being less rather than more glass-cannony). Keep in mind that this would be a base before applying things like the elven and halfling racial modifiers, medals, and focus chambers – combining these allows even a 12 base to have the potential to become insane (12 base with focus chamber high elves becomes 15 plus 2 shock, when gold becomes 19 plus 2 shock if all the medal upgrades go to ranged damage, which is competing favourably with gold t4 shrines of smiting and juggernauts: but four of that is effectively coming from the chamber.)December 24, 2014 at 23:39 #142708
Vote 1: Lizardmen for me. Naga may replace Lizardmen for some, but not for me, even though the Naga cities really look like the old Lizard city styles, but the Lizards with their siege engines on turtlebacks, their poison spitting worms that weren’t really good for anything, and their swimming army were really something unique, and I think they’re better to balance now with the embarking mechanic. It could be a faction that could settle on water tiles or something as part of a water mechanic expansion to give control of water territory some more use.
Vote 2: Tigrans I guess. I never really played them much in SM (also partly because you don’t get to play them in the campaign, which is a shame), but they also have the opportunity to bring unique playing styles, more than most other races I think. That said, I never thought Halflings would yield such a unique playing style until they brought them, but Triumph is probably still going to go with Tigrans after the Frostlings, both because the lore really doesn’t count them out yet and because the players seem to want them so much. I just don’t know if bringing Tigrans wouldn’t make Fire too much of a dominant damage channel in the game, it’s already pretty much tied (in my experience) with Blight in its occurrence, if it’s not more common already.December 24, 2014 at 23:54 #142712
Well, focus chambered elven archers are really good, we can see elite archers units via further dwelings, with that, we will avoid the elven faction archers.
Yeah, fire is the most common element after physical. If we look at the races, we can notice about something:
Humans, elves, orcs and halfling are most physical oriented races. I think, devs can give a more important role between elves and shock, orcs are fine with physical oriented damage, while halflings and humans can be helped with spirit damage.December 25, 2014 at 00:29 #142726
excuse me? blight is much more common that fire. For example, orc are just as blight orientated on blight as dwarves on fire(bolts and throw curse(yes, that’s blight to.)). And goblins are more blight heavy than dracs are fire heavy (40 resist vs 20 resist, 4 with blight on base damage, while 2 with fire on base damage for drac(and dwarf)). Also, Rogue is more blight heavy than Dread is Fire heavy.
Also, elves are just as shock heavy as dwarfs are fire – both have 2 units with it on primary damage channel, while the elves boast a dubuff vs 2 stronger protections, thus I must say I disagree with your assessment.December 25, 2014 at 01:07 #142736
Dwarves got firstborns (dwarves with flames and fire damage), and some units can inflict inmolation or fire aura (yes, thats fire too).
Forget about support and ask yourself “Where can we find elemental damage output with only basic racial units?”
Yeah, resistances are part of the channel variety, but I think Bob5 and me are talking about offensive side.
Again, I suppose you are talking about overall rating instead offensive rating, dread has more fire destructive power that rogue blight destructive power.
PD. You forget about theocrats, the class with the strongest affinity with an element.December 25, 2014 at 01:09 #142737
Vote 0- NOT ELVES. I hate when games like this have multiple copies of elves. I understand how it can be attractive on the development side of things, but 6 different types of pointy eared people feels like such a waste of potential when they’re already somewhat represented and you’ve got so many completely unique ideas that don’t even exist.
Vote 1- Shadow demons. They feel the most unique of all the units and offer something new. I prefer races that are unique to the standard fantasy tropes being rehashed, and stuff like tigrans feels boring and overused, and I tend to not enjoy the “different versions of humans” races for the same reason I dislike dark/wood elves.
Vote 2-Following that i’d say lizard men. Given my previous statements there’s not much left on the list i’d like, and if we’re going to have another standard fantasy trope race, i’d prefer lizard people to cat people as I feel there’s more potential there.December 25, 2014 at 06:17 #142751
Tbh, I’d say elves are more shock focused than dwarfs are fire focused. Firstborn only have a little fire damage on a mostly physical melee attack, and dwarfs don’t get fire until they’re well developed, while any elven city can put out a shock unit if needed to counter something.
On the other hand, dwarfs have fire on their most popular units, while the elven signature units are physical even though they have easy access to shock damage.
The gripping hand is that none of the above precludes more.December 25, 2014 at 06:38 #142755
Forge priest is obtainable after the temple is built, same case with storm sisters, I dont get your point at all, both can build fire/shock at the same time, while elves only get shock with storm sisters and dwarves got extra fire output with firsborns.December 25, 2014 at 11:02 #142807
Initiate’s have shock just as well, both on ranged(11) and on melee attack(4/4), which actually makes them very good flankers, especially if you happen to be a rogue with exlorer. Actually, Initiate got MORE shock damage(4 melee) than the Firstborn(14/2) got Fire(2 melee).
As for rogue having more blight than dreadnought has fire, lets have a look:
Flame tank(mid game)
Mana Core(Single Combat)
Dragon Oil(Single location combat)
Flash Bang(single target Combat)
Structural Insight(Sabotage on Irregulars)
Dread Hero upgrades:
Fire Bomb(hero only)
(shadow stalker changed to frost in patch 1.1)
Poison Mastery(All infantry/cavalry irregulars, all battles
Age of Deception(All Units, all damage channels, all battles)
Rain of Poison Blades(combat)
Poison Mastery(entire stack)
So accounting for the above, Dread has more instances of fire, but where the Rogue has them, it applies to so many more units that it has much more blight than the Dread has fire.December 25, 2014 at 16:40 #142844
1) Tigrans. These were a huge favorite of mine in AoW2 and Shadow Magic. They have a unique aesthetic, excellent army, and were all-around tactically strong. They’re the last big race I really want to see in this game. They had an internal diversity that lends itself perfectly to the current class system.
2) Less clear on the second race I’d ask for. Wood Elves and Dark Elves were my other big favorites, but they’re both accounted for right now with the High Elves, so it doesn’t make sense to resplit them in this game. Lizardmen from the original game would be my next choice, but without their monsters they don’t have much that isn’t covered (very well) by the current Naga. So, I’d like to see a third-party den worked into a full race, either the Naga or the Fey.December 25, 2014 at 16:54 #142847
To clarify that last paragraph… I’d like to see Naga fleshed out more, as a successor to the amphibious lizardmen, and I’d like to see Fey (or Fae, however its spelled here) developed into a successor to the wood elves.December 25, 2014 at 19:44 #142879
True, my mistake, I forget about initiates.
About dread vs rogue offensive channel affinity, My call stands, dread has more fire destructive potencial over rogue blight destructive potential, you forget about bomb squad. I think, mana core is the spell who breaks the balance between offensive power.December 26, 2014 at 09:46 #142992
Bomb Squad is IMO not that influential, though i did forget it. Also, i think Poison Master alone compensates for all the dread hero abilities(including bomb squad) and Mana core in effect – mana core is end game only, while Poison mastery is Tier 1 and can be in effect almost the entire game(disjunctions notwithstanding). It’s scope is also so much greater, and it really helps when creeping, which is a bit harder as a rogue(unless you’ve got the lesser stalkers yet…)December 26, 2014 at 13:40 #143027
But comparing dread vs rogue this way isnt reall saying much, dread through the flame tanks alone reach levels of destruction rogue cant match, it is pointless since dread has more powerful tactical armies , it how the class is designed. Rogue is designed for stealth mobility harrasing and harming the economy of others.December 26, 2014 at 15:13 #143070
1) Tigrans. Just so I can create an evil Tigran Warlord and name it after my cat. Lord-Eviscerator Snoet the Despoiler. Hide your pussycats!
2) Archons. If you read the Undead Archon description in the Tome of Wonders, it states the Archons disappeared and their buried dead suddenly resurrected as the Archons we know today. This means they might be present somewhere and whatever happened to resurrect their dead might’ve changed them as well. In general, I loved their theme in the earlier games and, seeing as how Triumph is reinventing all the races, I think they can do something awesome with that given.December 27, 2014 at 18:55 #143226
After reading through this thread, I feel like if a third new race does happen, it’ll be Tigrans. And I, for one, couldn’t be happier. They’ve got a lot of options, can easily be very distinct from existing races (I loved the idea mentioned earlier of giving their Infantry sprint, that’d be awesome), and aren’t stereotypical fantasy fare.
The only issue I see with Tigrans is that they’d probably be fire-based, which the Draconians already are. Still, though, that’s not a big deal.
I’m not sure why everyone keeps clamouring for Dark Elves. I just don’t see how they could be done in a way that’s meaningfully different from an evil High Elf Rogue.
I definitely agree with Jolly Joker on more dwellings. Dwellings are a great way to bring in “monstrous” units – both reintroducing older ones and adding newer ones.
I’d like to see a desert one, to fit with the Tigran theme. AoW 3 already has the Beholder (up yours, Hasbro), toss in the Djinn (preferably the Nomad version, rather than the Azrac one), Sandworm, and Sphinx and you’ve got a pretty interesting ensemble.December 27, 2014 at 19:14 #143229
Tigrans didn’t really have that many fire based things aside from Yaka devout firecats. They won’t have to share fire stuff with draconicons now that tigrans got sick of yaka and he abandonded them :P.December 27, 2014 at 19:32 #143235
Tigrans didn’t really have that many fire based things aside from Yaka devout firecats. They won’t have to share fire stuff with draconicons now that tigrans got sick of yaka and he abandonded them .
Oh, true enough. Actually I think it’d be cool if the Tigrans kept their religious fanaticism, but it becomes split among a variety of different objects of worship (maybe this could even be tied in with their disappearance and reappearance – after the whole Yaka thing, they wander around in existential despair for a bit until they encounter some sort of prophet or deity or pantheon of deities or other source of divine inspiration).
The reason being is that this would allow for a race that has several units that do Spirit damage (currently the most underrepresented damage type after cold – which will become plentiful with the Frostlings) without pigeonholing them into a specific alignment.December 29, 2014 at 21:27 #143583
Honestly, I think they should go all out for the 3rd, and final one (if that rumor it true) and put out a major expansion, one that would take time to put together, but would also be worth more than a simple DLC-pack. I have thought of at least 4 races they could put out, with 4 more classes along with them, new specializations, new dwellings, and a new campaign (with at least 2 or 3 parts/threads)
To start, revive the tigran race, down in the part of the world the draconians want to settle in. Now make a class that combines the ideas of the azracs/nomads (you can call it sultan, or khalif) who are locked in a struggle for survival with tigran (and other) clans/tribes (class). The sulten could have loyal. well trained slave armies with magical beings as well. And the clan/tribe chief could focus on a primal strength,and raiding style of play. They could also have a blood magic specialization (adept/master). Then, the shadow thralls appear (class) and work togther with necromancers to take over the world, ot something like that… But the surviving free wizards could also return with the shadow thralls (a rebellion type class) and there could be shadow elves (changed by their time in the other worlds), the archons (also changed) and syrons (in a more miltistic mode, i guess) The shadow thralls would have a parasite in their brain or something like that, and they would enthrall cities they capture (cool) and open portals in their cities to summon shadow demons (level one portal, can get a larva or something like that) Then you could have a final campaign that answers all the remaining questions. Also, for shadow thralls, shadow elves, etc, they should have a new specialization, shadow/illusion adept, shadow/illusion master.
Finally, for dwellings, you could have a beastman dwelling, with centaurs, satyrs, minotaurs, ets (they would be a good ally for the tribe/clan chief) and you should bring back lizardmen as a dwelling in lakes, rivers, or swamps. But obviously changed, their swordsman should have a trident, and a net, instead, much more practical in water, and their archer should have javelins/harpoons, and a net. Then you have their holy one, a giant toad trainer, the fire salamander, and the swamp dragon. But change the swamp dragon to make it level 4 (they have grown a brain stem in the last millenium) and now use shells, metal, and magic to protect and fight better. They can have a ranged attack now as well. You could make a synergy, so the lizardmen fight better when a swamp dragon is there with them, and vice versa. They could now see the dragons as their venerated ancesters, or something like that. I know that would be a lot to ask for, but i would willingly pay for something like this, even if it took 6 to 9 months. What do you guys think?January 3, 2015 at 19:30 #144575
Hard to say which races I’d like to see. From existing ones I like Tigrans, Azracs and Lizardmen. Other than that I like idea of canine race.
I think good way to reintroduce Archon/Highmen is making them Theocrat units. If I’m right Theocrats worship Anon so it would make sense. Sadly it would require lot of rebalancing. Thinking about it now it might be good way to reintroduce lot of good old units but it’s off topic so I’ll stop here.
So choosing two races… Lizardmen and Azracs.January 4, 2015 at 03:49 #144638
Theocrats worship whoever they choose to worship. Anon is a possibility, but so are all the other wizards, the All-Father, and others.January 4, 2015 at 13:17 #144661
1) Tigrans! My favorite race (together with Draconians).
2) Nomads – Because their awesome ability to move cities on caravans would breed some new tactics 🙂January 4, 2015 at 14:35 #144675
Always thought theocrat just somehow managed to get in touch with the life sphere. And use it for their biddings. They kinda have more useful spells than real life wizards :|.
Some of them pretty much worship themselves :P.
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