Poor old specs…

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This topic contains 76 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by  Akinaba 7 years, 3 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 77 total)
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  • #206175

    Zaskow
    Member

    When EL had come most players noticed that old specializations becomes less popular and usable. Air/water adept can’t provide such significant bonuses as Grey guard or Shadowborn do.
    Take a look, plz.
    Fire adept.
    One of most popular spec in MP, even now. “Immortal classic” as my friend said once. Fire adept is best example of balanced and usable specialization.
    Air adept
    At first look it is not the worst spec, but when playing it has some problems here and there.
    Look at spells.
    Suffocate – low damage spell with serious limits against large amount of unit types. Maybe, buff it somehow? -1 to cp and +1-2 to damage?
    Seeker – very useful spell for classes relied on shooting units. Dreads, AD and Theocrat (maybe). I’ve heard once that someone called Air adept Seeker adept. It’s true.
    Domain of Winter – actually, I think “Domain” type spell is a bit overpriced in maintenance.
    Summon Zephyr Bird – meh, this thing is strongly overpriced both in mana/cp and research points. There are no much reasons to choose this for druids (as AD hasn’t flying scout).
    Water adept
    Poorest and least used spec, imao.
    Vengeful Frost – cheap spell, okish in most cases.
    Rot – utility against only 2 types of targets limit this spell very much. Some additional effect required (as AD Rust strike has on armored units).
    Freeze Water – in theory, this spell had to support rush tactics, but high price (cp/mana and research) rejects this use completely.
    Summon Baby Kraken – useless summon spell for most maps and relatively expensive. Maybe, change it somehow? Summon Lost mariner for example?
    Wild Magic adept
    WM was very popular in MP and SP both, before a few heavy nerfs come.
    Warp Equipment – nice debuff spell. Maybe overpriced a bit.
    Swap Locations – this spell was OP in sieges especially. 20 cp for it is a quite high.
    Summon Lesser Elemental – the most debatable and most powerful spell of adept. IMAO, it was nerfed too much.
    Degenerate – very useful spell. Nerf doesn’t hurt them much, however I’d like to see increasing duration to 5 turns.
    Creation adept
    Good spec (in some scenarios) doesn’t need any change.
    Destruction adept
    Same as for Creation adept.
    Earth adept – okish.
    Partisan
    Only thing in Partisan I don’t like it’s relatively low strength and cp price for War Anthem.

    #206197

    freese2112
    Member

    First – I definitely agree that the “original” specializations come out UP when compared to the EL alignment specializations. A portion of that can be “offset” by the alignment limitations, but for Peacekeeper/Shadowborn that isn’t much of an issue.

    The issue I have with your approach though is best exemplified by your comment regarding Water Adept (specifically Rot):

    Water adept
    Rot – utility against only 2 types of targets limit this spell very much. Some additional effect required (as AD Rust strike has on armored units).

    What you fail to mention is that the 2 types of targets that are impacted (Machine and Undead) are targets that are HUGE issues for several classes (Theocrat for Machine, and Rogue/Warlord for Undead). This gives a “smart” player the ability to cover up for a class weakness by taking this specialization. Of course, Water Adept is not OP like the alignment specilizations where all 5 of the upgrades range from very useful to amazing.

    I do agree that the original specializations should be “tweaked” to put them closer to parity from an overall use perspective to the EL specializations. That being said – when doing the analysis I think you have to look at the underlying issue more holistically, and not as granularly as you seem to. Just IMO though, and YMMV.

    #206199

    Epaminondas
    Member

    I do agree that the original specializations should be “tweaked” to put them closer to parity from an overall use perspective to the EL specializations. That being said – when doing the analysis I think you have to look at the underlying issue more holistically, and not as granularly as you seem to. Just IMO though, and YMMV.

    Well said.

    What you fail to mention is that the 2 types of targets that are impacted (Machine and Undead) are targets that are HUGE issues for several classes (Theocrat for Machine, and Rogue/Warlord for Undead). This gives a “smart” player the ability to cover up for a class weakness by taking this specialization. Of course, Water Adept is not OP like the alignment specilizations where all 5 of the upgrades range from very useful to amazing.

    And an excellent example on Rot. I am beginning to feel Zaskow’s understanding of balance and value are totally different from the rest of the playerbase.

    #206210

    Zaskow
    Member

    What you fail to mention is that the 2 types of targets that are impacted (Machine and Undead) are targets that are HUGE issues for several classes (Theocrat for Machine, and Rogue/Warlord for Undead). This gives a “smart” player the ability to cover up for a class weakness by taking this specialization. Of course, Water Adept is not OP like the alignment specilizations where all 5 of the upgrades range from very useful to amazing.

    Sorry, but choosing spec for one spell is bad balance. Also Warlord hasn’t any problems with Undead. Rogue isn’t so weak against Necro when you come with stalkers.
    Did I say that Rot is bad? I just said that Rot could have more utility against other units as Rust strike has.

    I am beginning to feel Zaskow’s understanding of balance and value are totally different from the rest of the playerbase.

    Pff. Most forum “specialists” have perverted view of balance. Where it could be useful in SP it would be a piece of crap in MP.

    Of course, Water Adept is not OP like the alignment specilizations where all 5 of the upgrades range from very useful to amazing.

    And here we have main problem. In old adepts (Fire, Creation and Destruction are exceptions) only half of spell are really useful at best.

    #206216

    Inflict frostbite on vengeful frost (you probably don’t want chilling for stacking reasons). Scorching on fireball, armor piercing on stonning, or crippling for more cp. Suffocate could have an inflict choking fumes chance.

    Domain of earth could use a +3 gold to mines impact (since you are only underground if you want to now), and so it makes dwarves more dwarfy.

    #206220

    Bob5
    Member

    I don’t pick Water for just Rot, I also pick it for Baby Krakens and Freeze Water. Water adept is an excellent choice for Tigrans. It covers up their Mystic trouble with Machines as well as their weakness on the water. Sure, if you play purely on Land maps Baby Krakens are useless, but on islands they most definitely aren’t, and if you manage to evolve them they turn into the arguably the most powerful unit in the game. On Continents it depends on how the map turns out. Baby Krakens are even more fun if you manage to summon them with Fear Strike using the Castle of the Lich King.

    Freeze water also does more than just allow rush tactics, if used correctly it allows you to disable enemy boats and sea creatures allowing you to pass even when you are heavily outmatched on the sea.

    #206222

    Zaskow
    Member

    Inflict frostbite on vengeful frost (you probably don’t want chilling for stacking reasons). Scorching on fireball, armor piercing on stonning, or crippling for more cp. Suffocate could have an inflict choking fumes chance.

    Domain of earth could use a +3 gold to mines impact (since you are only underground if you want to now), and so it makes dwarves more dwarfy.

    That were good suggestions for old specs spells.

    Freeze water also does more than just allow rush tactics, if used correctly it allows you to disable enemy boats and sea creatures allowing you to pass even when you are heavily outmatched on the sea.

    I didn’t say that Freeze water allows rush. It hurts rush. You must wait too long for casting and it’s better and quicker just to embark…

    Water adept is an excellent choice for Tigrans. It covers up their Mystic trouble with Machines as well as their weakness on the water.

    Tigrans hate Frozen water and suffer from morale penalty.

    #206224

    Bob5
    Member

    Tigrans hate Frozen water and suffer from morale penalty.

    Terrain is never hated, frozen water counts as water clime.

    #206229

    Zaskow
    Member

    Terrain is never hated, frozen water counts as water clime.

    Climate is never hated, not terrain.
    I always thought that Frozen water counts as Arctic Barrens.

    #206237

    Ericridge
    Member

    Light and Blight elementals needed to be added into Creation/Destruction mastery.

    #206250

    Zaskow
    Member

    Light and Blight elementals needed to be added into Creation/Destruction mastery.

    Personally, I’d like to see lesser elementals on adepts, but it won’t happen. 🙁
    Blight and Holy elementals are GR content.

    #206251

    Akinaba
    Member

    Summon Zephyr Bird – meh, this thing is strongly overpriced both in mana/cp and research points. There are no much reasons to choose this for druids (as AD hasn’t flying scout).

    Agreed and I’ve allready pointed that out. It’s a summon Tier I creature spell still cost 60 mp and upkeep is 12 as it was a Summon Tier II animal spell.

    Either low down the cost or raise the Tier of the creature.

    #206252

    Epaminondas wrote:
    I am beginning to feel Zaskow’s understanding of balance and value are totally different from the rest of the playerbase.
    Pff. Most forum “specialists” have perverted view of balance.

    :).

    You guys made me smile. Thanks, I needed that.

    #206254

    freese2112
    Member

    What you fail to mention is that the 2 types of targets that are impacted (Machine and Undead) are targets that are HUGE issues for several classes (Theocrat for Machine, and Rogue/Warlord for Undead). This gives a “smart” player the ability to cover up for a class weakness by taking this specialization. Of course, Water Adept is not OP like the alignment specilizations where all 5 of the upgrades range from very useful to amazing.

    Sorry, but choosing spec for one spell is bad balance. Also Warlord hasn’t any problems with Undead. Rogue isn’t so weak against Necro when you come with stalkers.
    Did I say that Rot is bad? I just said that Rot could have more utility against other units as Rust strike has.

    No – you said the Water Adept is bad because it “only” is effective against two type so targets. My point is that if your class has a big “blind spot” with how to deal with either Undead or Machines, it’s a great selection.

    I don’t agree with your other comments. Warlords, due to inflicint the vast majority of damage through the physical channel, can have trouble with Undead units. Similarly, Stalkers with Frost & Physical (or Rogue units in general with Physical & Blight) can struggle against some undead units as well.

    I do understand your perspective that taking a specialization for “one” upgrade/ability is “bad balance”, especially when many of the other specializations have more options that can contribute. That beings said – if you’re a goblin warlord or rogue, you really need something to help with the undead. Likewise, if you’re playing Theocrat, you REALLY need some help when dealing with machines.

    If you’re a Theocrat player who “doubles down” on Peacekeeper Master & Creation Adept and you get thumped by a Dread player – you deserve to lose IMO, because you went into a game knowing that you don’t really have a solution if you meet up with a Dread player. The fact that Bless, Holy Cure and Cure the Land are 3 great spells for Creation Adept doesn’t mean squat if you’re getting buried by Golems, Flame Tanks & Juggernauts.

    Like I said – some of the original specializations could definitely use a “tweak”, but not every option is going to be useful in every role. And IMO, if a particular race/class combination has a “BIG WEAKNESS” that can be addressed by Rot, that’s the smart choice even if you feel that Summon Baby Kraken and Freeze Water are underwhelming.

    #206255

    Akinaba
    Member

    taking a specialization for “one” upgrade/ability is “bad balance”, especially when many of the other specializations have more options that can contribute.

    Exactly.

    Like I said – some of the original specializations could definitely use a “tweak”, but not every option is going to be useful in every role.

    So let’s discuss them possible tweaks.
    What spells/specializations could use and what “tweaks” exactly on youor POW?

    #206256

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Okay, I will take an honest stab and examine/elaborate where I do agree with you:

    Air adept

    Summon Zephyr Bird – meh, this thing is strongly overpriced both in mana/cp and research points. There are no much reasons to choose this for druids (as AD hasn’t flying scout).

    Agree, even though it has been buffed previously for this very reason. I’d like to see either the Zephyr Bird boosted to the point where it is combat worthy OR summon/research price lowered.

    Water adept

    Summon Baby Kraken – useless summon spell for most maps and relatively expensive. Maybe, change it somehow? Summon Lost mariner for example?

    Really strongly agree. Baby Kraken are useless in maps without high water content. Change this summon to a summon that can function on land.

    So basically, I see two spells (hence, two Specializations) that need to be boosted, and that is pretty much it.

    #206258

    freese2112
    Member

    Freeze water also does more than just allow rush tactics, if used correctly it allows you to disable enemy boats and sea creatures allowing you to pass even when you are heavily outmatched on the sea.

    I didn’t say that Freeze water allows rush. It hurts rush. You must wait too long for casting and it’s better and quicker just to embark…
    [/quote]

    Honestly, it’s comments like this that make me wonder if we’re playing or discussing the same game. Unless something has changed and I missed it – as long as you have the 40 CP’s you don’t wait at all for casting. You cast on the strategic map, and can cross the water terrain without the need to blow an entire turn embarking at all.

    #206262

    Zaskow
    Member

    Warlords, due to inflicint the vast majority of damage through the physical channel, can have trouble with Undead units.

    Only with banshee and reapers. When Warlord gets Blood brothers situation changes radically.

    Similarly, Stalkers with Frost & Physical (or Rogue units in general with Physical & Blight) can struggle against some undead units as well.

    Stalker has Poison/Frost immunity and Physical protection. Only banshees and reapers can fight with stalker.

    No – you said the Water Adept is bad because it “only” is effective against two type so targets. My point is that if your class has a big “blind spot” with how to deal with either Undead or Machines, it’s a great selection.

    If you have problem with reading the first post I can help.
    Original quote:

    Poorest and least used spec, imao.
    Vengeful Frost – cheap spell, okish in most cases.
    Rot – utility against only 2 types of targets limit this spell very much. Some additional effect required (as AD Rust strike has on armored units).
    Freeze Water – in theory, this spell had to support rush tactics, but high price (cp/mana and research) rejects this use completely.

    Where are my words about how Rot is bad?

    Likewise, if you’re playing Theocrat, you REALLY need some help when dealing with machines.

    In case of Theocrat Rot can’t win battles against machines for you. It can help a bit, but not a lot. Also Weakening debuff isn’t very useful for Theocrat relies on Spirit damage.

    And IMO, if a particular race/class combination has a “BIG WEAKNESS” that can be addressed by Rot, that’s the smart choice even if you feel that Summon Baby Kraken and Freeze Water are underwhelming.

    Rot is great spell, but can’t address “BIG WEAKNESS” vs. machines. In ideal situation Rot can destroy 1-2 machines, but if you cast it 3-4 times.

    #206264

    Gloweye
    Member

    Inflict frostbite on vengeful frost (you probably don’t want chilling for stacking reasons).

    Maybe you do…it’s still only 1 spell cast per turn, and the inflict isn’t 100% unless you have other ways to stack it.

    Scorching on fireball, armor piercing on stonning, or crippling for more cp. Suffocate could have an inflict choking fumes chance.

    Domain of earth could use a +3 gold to mines impact (since you are only underground if you want to now), and so it makes dwarves more dwarfy.

    Sounds all good to me. Though no Armor Piercing on Stoning, since it’s more of a blunt spell to me. That crippling sounds much better.

    Summon Zephyr Bird – meh, this thing is strongly overpriced both in mana/cp and research points. There are no much reasons to choose this for druids (as AD hasn’t flying scout).

    Agreed and I’ve allready pointed that out. It’s a summon Tier I creature spell still cost 60 mp and upkeep is 12 as it was a Summon Tier II animal spell.

    Either low down the cost or raise the Tier of the creature.

    It’s had a pretty buff in Wing Beat, along with being decreased in cost. That said, I really wouldn’t mind if it moved up a Tier.

    #206266

    freese2112
    Member

    taking a specialization for “one” upgrade/ability is “bad balance”, especially when many of the other specializations have more options that can contribute.

    Exactly.

    Like I said – some of the original specializations could definitely use a “tweak”, but not every option is going to be useful in every role.

    So let’s discuss them possible tweaks.
    What spells/specializations could use and what “tweaks” exactly on youor POW?

    Because you only quoted a portion of my post, I want to elaborate to ensure that my point is understood. Zaskow said that Water Adept is bad because there are too many “specialized” spells. I agreed that several of the spells are VERY specialized, but the point that I feel like Zaskow is missing is that if one of those specialized spells (like Rot) addresses a major issue that can’t be addressed via other class/racial options, it’s a great selection.

    We have a huge thread where some people are voicing their concern that Theo’s don’t have a solution to Machines. They are completely ignoring the fact that the have options open to them, but because they preferred Seeker, or Hellhounds/Fireball/Skin of Oil, or Bless/Holy Cure/Heal the Land they skipped on the Water Adept. Then when a Dread shows up and feeds them their lunch, they complain because they don’t have a solution to machines.

    Potential solutions:
    Explorer/Expander – need a spell option in addition to the Empire upgrades. Maybe a combat mobility spell for Explorer (grant Sprint), and for Expander a general 20% resistance spell to all element (excluding physical).

    I like the suggestions for the others being mentioned (reduce CP cost for Zephyr, change Baby Kraken to a unit that can go on land).

    #206293

    Maybe you do…it’s still only 1 spell cast per turn, and the inflict isn’t 100% unless you have other ways to stack it.

    frost should have frostbite, and you can’t put both chill and frostbite in the same spell.

    As for inflict chill, that might actually be a good alternate fire for freeze water. If you cast it over land, then there is an inflict chill chance (works the same way that luck can prevent strategic map spells) for all enemies that lasts a set number of turns.

    You could rename the spell “ice storm”, and price accordingly.

    #206310

    Zaskow
    Member

    We have a huge thread where some people are voicing their concern that Theo’s don’t have a solution to Machines. They are completely ignoring the fact that the have options open to them, but because they preferred Seeker, or Hellhounds/Fireball/Skin of Oil, or Bless/Holy Cure/Heal the Land they skipped on the Water Adept. Then when a Dread shows up and feeds them their lunch, they complain because they don’t have a solution to machines.

    Rot can’t save you.

    In ideal situation Rot can destroy 1-2 machines, but if you cast it 3-4 times.

    #206316

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Rot can’t save you….

    In ideal situation Rot can destroy 1-2 machines, but if you cast it 3-4 times.

    Your units will not be sitting on their asses and watch while Rot does it’s thing, I hope. Rot will help you win the fight against machines.

    Instead, my problem with using the Water Adept Specialization is that the rest of the Specialization is so situational/lackluster that it is difficult to justify taking it for one spell alone.

    #206318

    Zaskow
    Member

    Your units will not be sitting on their asses and watch while Rot does it’s thing, I hope. Rot will help you win the fight against machines.

    You enemy can place his units far from each other and this would limit effectiveness of Rot very much. Also Rot works on physical channel and this decreases its damage too.

    #206320

    Ericridge
    Member

    Whenever I fight someone with water adept, my Golems always worry about rot spell and cringe when it gets cast at least once.

    What Rot does is 20 physical damage, AND -1 Defense, -1 Resistance, -200 Morale plus +60% Blight weakness.

    Golems that gets hit by rot spell have a tendency to get killed easily. All that for only mere price of 20 CP. I’ve seen beetle riders smash into golems which got hit by rot destroy them in one turn.

    And plus to avoid getting chained by Rot spell, enemy player must position his machines exactly four hexs away from each other. That’s huge amount of space. While dreadnought is placing his golems into loose formation you can just dogpile that single golem and move onto the next one easily.

    And from what I have seen, it seems you want ROT to be a disintegrate that can hit multiple targets and kill three golems instantly per battle turn for it to be “considered effective” to you.

    #206328

    Bouh
    Member

    Climate is never hated, not terrain.
    I always thought that Frozen water counts as Arctic Barrens.

    Ok, now it’s sure : you know mostly nothing about what you talk about on this forum. I mean, rogue, theocrat, and now water adept, and this only add up on other things. Combined with this toxic view of balance and it’s a win.

    Something is missing in this : elemental spheres gives more mana with nodes of their type, and with mastery they give candles on top.

    Considering they give you elemental abilities you may lack (if you don’t stupidly dogpile on things you already have only to complain after that), they are still definitely worth it.

    In brief :
    Water : godlike for all water map, and against dreadnought and necromancer, whatever your race or class. Water mastery synergize very well with goblins.
    Air : adept is obviously excellent with any class or race with good ranged units. Mastery synergize with frostlings and is all around excellent.
    Earth : quite sotm these days, nothing to add.
    Fire : considering fire state with EL, nothing to add either.
    Creation : simply always useful.
    Destruction : evil guerilla warfare best tool. Also synergize very well with goblins. Mastery turns any damage spell into a lesser disintegrate, disintegrate is the finger of god, and wreck is more hate against machines and undeads.
    Wild : the wild card, simply always extremely strong.

    #206364

    Fenraellis
    Member

    I don’t agree with your other comments. Warlords, due to inflicint the vast majority of damage through the physical channel, can have trouble with Undead units. Similarly, Stalkers with Frost & Physical (or Rogue units in general with Physical & Blight) can struggle against some undead units as well.

    To be fair here, the Undead a Warlord might struggle against are the Incorporeal ones, which happen to be immune to Rot anyway. ;P

    Expander a general 20% resistance spell to all element (excluding physical).

    More likely would be something like a Global Enchantment to make cities suffer reduced(halved?) penalties from Disliked/Hated climates. Kind of like a city-modifying version of the Archdruid spell “One With Nature”, but without the effect of boosting Liked terrains.

    It’s called “Expander”. Why would it be boosting the Protections of your combat units?

    #206377

    llfoso
    Member

    My only hangup with the old adepts is that the domain of x spells are too situational if you don’t have the accompanying x empire spell. Like domain of earth when underground is disabled or domain of winter when you spawn in temperate.

    But I will say there’s room for improvement. For example it does seem like people only pick air adept for seeker, the other skills are weak. Especially zephyrs.

    #206392

    Zaskow
    Member

    Ok, now it’s sure : you know mostly nothing about what you talk about on this forum. I mean, rogue, theocrat, and now water adept, and this only add up on other things. Combined with this toxic view of balance and it’s a win.

    Dear lover of release balance, I beg you, don’t go into balance suggestions topics. You can’t provide any good ideas and only claims that all new ideas are crap.

    As for climate I was mistaken about that.

    Golems that gets hit by rot spell have a tendency to get killed easily. All that for only mere price of 20 CP. I’ve seen beetle riders smash into golems which got hit by rot destroy them in one turn.

    Thanks to Demolisher*2 mostly.

    Something is missing in this : elemental spheres gives more mana with nodes of their type, and with mastery they give candles on top.

    I don’t review elemental masteries here, because they’re okish in most cases. But still some of them isn’t so powerful as new masteries – Shadowborn, Grey guard or Keeper.

    #206398

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    It’s true that the new specs kick – but they have a downside, and that downside may be pretty costly. With Grey Guard your decisions depend on your current count. If you are already in the evil, declaring war is a nono, which may be really bothersome. The other two force you into a certain kind of decision all the time.

    Of course, as with other things, the map setup plays a role here.

    For example (not immediately obvious): with keeper and shadowborn you can go into the good/bad, IF troops want to surrender; the probability of seeing those depends on defender strength. Setting things up NORMAL will have them, but if you set STRONG or VERY STRONG you’ll have a hard time finding troops willing to surrender, at least in the earlier stages of the game.

    Same with Water: play an Island map or Continents with slightly more than average water.

    More varied MP settings would solve a lot of “problems”.

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