Poor old specs…

We’ve moved over to the paradox forums. Please come visit us there to discuss:
You can still read the collective wisdom - and lolz - of the community here, but posting is no longer possible.

This topic contains 76 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by  Akinaba 7 years, 3 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 31 through 60 (of 77 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #206399

    Zaskow
    Member

    Same with Water: play an Island map or Continents with slightly more than average water.

    As for me, I don’t like idea where some specs has utility only on certain map properties, especially when most players don’t use it. I say for MP mostly. Water spec doesn’t buff you on seas much. Do it worth 1 specialization slot considering other spells? I’m not sure.

    #206400

    quo
    Member

    Rot is fine as is. However, it can’t begin to make up for losing Holy War. There ought to be an in game badge for dying to a Theocrat when playing a Dreadnought. Something like “Case: Hopeless. Please Uninstall.”

    #206402

    Fenraellis
    Member

    (nevermind)

    #206404

    Hatmage
    Member

    Suffocate could have an inflict choking fumes chance.

    I came here to post exactly this. On the one hand, air adept isn’t terrible, but on the other, most of its’ power is tied up solely in seeker enchantment, to the point where it has nearly no synergy with goblins.

    #206410

    Bob5
    Member

    Is MP really only land? When I play MP I usually play on Random map type. Islands maps have increased dramatically in playability since EL with the additional embarking penalties (slower movement, no Charge, sprint, phase, pounce, athletics, etc.), the Reef Colony, and pirate spawns now also going to land, a decent force to fight on water is now important on islands. Yes, Kraken is situational, but on Island maps they rock now and can be leveled up quite decently on stuff like Maelstroms, pirates, enemy scouts, and mermaid shrines. Once they evolve they’re incredibly scary, especially if you summon them with Fear Strike.

    Some race combinations have no real power on the sea without it, like Tigran Warlord has nothing outside of Monster Hunters and later on Manticores. Monster Hunters can do it if you get them Mercenary and Enchanted Armor, but the combination is unreliable to get. Goblins Warlord also has similar problems. Theocrats can do decently with Exalted but Exalted don’t have the power to win big battles on their own. For a warlord, summoning several baby krakens to spread out in groups of 3 or so can wreck havoc on enemy scouting attempts. 3 can deal with most Sorc scouting (wisps and Fantastic Creature summons) and earlier pirate and lost soul spawns thanks to their spirit protection.

    #206411

    Zaskow
    Member

    Let’s talk about “Domain of …” spells. Honestly, I think they are expensive for being very situational spells. Compare their maintenance with cost of city enchantments of EL specs.

    #206413

    Bob5
    Member

    I think they’re expensive, but they’re also very good now that they also affect the morale of friendly units in the domain. Makes defending in hostile climes a lot easier, and the city happiness boost can be in the order of +400, better than Iron Grip. It’s not really comparable to the EL city enchantments, they affect units produced but don’t boost your economy. Domain of … spells can greatly increase your economic output.

    They’re useless for Necro players though, affecting only the morale of non-ghouled units in the domain and nothing else.

    They’re situational, but you can alter those odds well with the … Empire spells, Cleanse the Land, or simply by predicting well. If you play as Frostlings you can go with Air Adept because Frostlings start 9 out of 10 times in snow. If you’re Tigrans or Draconians you’re usually starting in Tropical or Volcanic terrain so you can easily go with Fire Adept.

    #206416

    Zaskow
    Member

    Is MP really only land?

    In most cases. Anyway, you’re unable to block with krakens all possible ways to traverse seas.

    Theocrats can do decently with Exalted but Exalted don’t have the power to win big battles on their own.

    Shrines and Exalted can.

    Some race combinations have no real power on the sea without it, like Tigran Warlord has nothing outside of Monster Hunters and later on Manticores.

    At least WL has Mariner command…

    a decent force to fight on water is now important on islands.

    Some classes have enough floating and flying units for this purposes. It’s not big sense for them on using only sea creatures.

    better than Iron Grip

    But Iron Grip can work everywhere. This makes it far more usable than Domain spells.

    They’re useless for Necro players though, affecting only the morale of non-ghouled units in the domain and nothing else.

    Buff Necro population/gold/mana/whatever output instead.

    #206419

    Bob5
    Member

    Shrines and Exalted can.

    Shrines come fairly late, at least in my experience. Medium map MP is usually decided before they become relevant.

    At least WL has Mariner command…

    Mariner doesn’t make you incredible on water, just a bit faster and more bulky. Warlord still can’t utilize cavalry power well on water even with Mariner (mariner is also one stack only), even with Mariner you don’t have Charge and you’re still fairly slow, only 24MP with basic seafaring and 30MP with adv. seafaring.

    Some classes have enough floating and flying units for this purposes. It’s not big sense for them on using only sea creatures.

    True, Sorc has a lot less use for it, but sea creatures tend to do really well for their cost on sea battles, better than floaters or flyers, to balance out that they can’t fight on land. Baby Kraken can kill most T2 units like Wyverns or Gryphons one on one.

    But Iron Grip can work everywhere. This makes it far more usable than Domain spells.

    True, Iron Grip also affects dwellings, Domain of … can’t be cast on dwellings. But Iron Grip doesn’t affect the units in your domain, and is a class upgrade. +200 (+500 when transitioning from hated clime) morale is quite big when you need to hold cities. It’s even a larger boost for Druids. It’s a bit like Paid Absolution. It’s more expensive, but it also gives a larger economic boost to the city and it stacks with High Morale from other sources

    Buff Necro population/gold/mana/whatever output instead.

    I agree with this. Percentage of affected climes in the domain divided by 5 or so added to the city output, accumulating to a maximum of +20% output.

    #206423

    Zaskow
    Member

    It’s a bit like Paid Absolution.

    I don’t consider Paid Absolution as Morale buff spell, it’s just mana to gold converter.

    #206447

    Bouh
    Member

    Let’s talk about “Domain of …” spells. Honestly, I think they are expensive for being very situational spells. Compare their maintenance with cost of city enchantments of EL specs.

    Another show of ignorance.

    There are three cases where “domain of” spells are useful :
    – you have a race that start on the climate of your spe, then it is a greater iron grip.
    – you have a race that hate or dislike the climate of your spe, then it’s good on offense when you take cities in hated and disliked climate.
    – you have the mastery with the corresponding empire spell, then you are in case 1 everywhere.

    Also, I said this in the theocrat thread already, but it fits here too : specialization and race stuff don’t always add up on class stuff, because in this game you can’t research everything and use everything at the same time. If you build flyers or firstborns, you probably won’t have money and time to build exalted on top. If you cast rot, you don’t cast chain lightning, because CP are limited. HENCE, specialization cover weaknesses of your class excellently well, but they fail to make any already powerful stuff more powerful. Except for new specialization that work the reverse : they mostly don’t expand your abilities, they only reinforce what you already do.

    Elemental specialization expand on your class/race abilities while alignement spe increase your strengths. It’s versatility verus specialization. Some people will unfortunately never understand this.

    Also, zephyr bird is the best scout in game. Classes with lesser scouting abilities will definitely benefit from them.

    #206462

    Zaskow
    Member

    – you have a race that start on the climate of your spe, then it is a greater iron grip.

    This doesn’t cancel situational of these spells. You can start in not planned environment.

    – you have a race that hate or dislike the climate of your spe, then it’s good on offense when you take cities in hated and disliked climate.

    How many races hate Temperate, for example?
    Races hate/dislike blighted and volcanic climate mostly. This fact makes most usable Domain of … spell from Destruction and Fire. But what a surprise – these specs are popular and good enough even without Domain of … spells.

    – you have the mastery with the corresponding empire spell, then you are in case 1 everywhere.

    This matches happen rarely. Some masteries have very limited utility for certain class+race combo.

    they mostly don’t expand your abilities, they only reinforce what you already do.

    Life drain for all units created in town from Shadowborn? Meditate from Keeper?

    Elemental specialization expand on your class/race abilities while alignement spe increase your strengths.

    Actually, alignment specs add a lot new abilities for units and new spells for your leader.

    It’s versatility verus specialization. Some people will unfortunately never understand this.

    And what we have as result? In MP versatility prices much more than specialization, because you must be ready to meet ANY threat.

    Also, zephyr bird is the best scout in game. Classes with lesser scouting abilities will definitely benefit from them.

    They haven’t additional vision range and can be easily killed by Wisps, Souls, Cherubs and die in explosion of Drone. Also bird is expensive to cast and research.

    #206511

    Bouh
    Member

    This matches happen rarely. Some masteries have very limited utility for certain class+race combo.

    Enforcing open doors… And yet you still don’t understand. Indeed elemental masteries are good when they allows you to do something you couldn’t before. Otherwise they are mostly redundant and a new spe is better, because they allow you to do what you do better better than elemental spe that only add stuff. Notice that I don’t expect you to understand this anymore. I start to wonder if you can imagin different scales of power currently.

    Bouh wrote:

    Elemental specialization expand on your class/race abilities while alignement spe increase your strengths.

    Actually, alignment specs add a lot new abilities for units and new spells for your leader.

    You don’t understand what I mean. I’m not sure if I need to bother.

    Life drain for all units created in town from Shadowborn? Meditate from Keeper?

    What does this allows your units to do they couldn’t do before ?

    Expanding abilities means that you can kill stuff you couldn’t before. Like hell hound and fireball murder incorporeal units your physical/blight unit can’t. Domain of winter expand your abilities when you use a race that hate arctic, because now you can profit from winter climate when you previously couldn’t.

    Bouh wrote:

    It’s versatility verus specialization. Some people will unfortunately never understand this.

    And what we have as result? In MP versatility prices much more than specialization, because you must be ready to meet ANY threat.

    EXACTLY ! And you know what ? Keeper of peace doesn’t give versatility ! Nor does shadowborn ! Only grey guard does it, and it is only magical abilities, not elemental ones. New spe mostly make your units better, but they mostly don’t give you new options. Old spe give you new options, but they mostly don’t make your units better. Except for creation. Creation is the closest sphere from the new ones. Not in power, in phylosophy.

    Let make a picture, it’s always easier to understand. Let’s say your class/race have some power bars representing their power in different areas. Let’s take goblin theocrat as an example. Goblin theocrat will have good power bars in blight, spirit and physical damage, and in heal and resistance stuff. Alignement spec will increase the bars you already have and only marginaly give new bars. Shadowborn for example will give a tiny bar in shock damage. Elemental spec wil mostly give you new bars : water will give an anti-machine bar, a cross river bar, a naval warfare bar ; air mastery will give you a shock damage bar, and anti-ranged units bar, and so on.

    This is versatility versus specialization : you increase versatility when you get new bars ; you increase specialization when you increase the bars you already have.

    #206527

    Zaskow
    Member

    Enforcing open doors… And yet you still don’t understand. Indeed elemental masteries are good when they allows you to do something you couldn’t before. Otherwise they are mostly redundant and a new spe is better, because they allow you to do what you do better better than elemental spe that only add stuff. Notice that I don’t expect you to understand this anymore.

    Alignment specs add enough new stuff too. New stuff from elemental specs (especially adepts) is just not useful enough to compare.

    I start to wonder if you can imagin different scales of power currently.

    You fail to think that stuff from elementals specs is just weak and need additional slots. Have any elemental spec something so effective as Cardinal culling?

    What does this allows your units to do they couldn’t do before ?

    In case of life drain – self-healing in battles, meditate – self-buffing for free.

    Expanding abilities means that you can kill stuff you couldn’t before. Like hell hound and fireball murder incorporeal units your physical/blight unit can’t.

    You may notice that no one (me too) complains about Fire spec. It’s good and usable, other elemental specs can’t provide comparable utility.

    Domain of winter expand your abilities when you use a race that hate arctic, because now you can profit from winter climate when you previously couldn’t.

    Domain of winter has barely use for AD, Dreads (classes who could win from using Seeker) and Rogue, because they have good spells buffing town morale in hated terrains.
    Also only 2 races in game hate Arctic and 3 races dislike. I don’t think that this is big enough to justify filling slot by spec with almost useless spell.

    Elemental spec wil mostly give you new bars : water will give an anti-machine bar, a cross river bar, a naval warfare bar

    These new bars are so little. They can be easily ignored completely.
    Krakens can’t win naval warfare for you, just because they are relatively expensive to spam and block sea ways. And they’re not usable anywhere, except water.

    Rot could help against machines. But not very much. It’s just more profitable to deploy enough blight doctor for weakening and bugs with demolisher, if we talk about goblin theocrat. Other theocrats have bad chances against machines.

    About cross river bar I agreed.

    #206548

    Anyway, bouh, all anyone is actually calling for is a refurbishment of these to be as neat as the new ones.

    #206557

    Fenraellis
    Member

    I think they’re expensive, but they’re also very good now that they also affect the morale of friendly units in the domain. Makes defending in hostile climes a lot easier, and the city happiness boost can be in the order of +400, better than Iron Grip.

    That buff to make them finally apply a bonus to units too, was pretty nice indeed.

    They haven’t additional vision range and can be easily killed by Wisps, Souls, Cherubs and die in explosion of Drone. Also bird is expensive to cast and research.

    Zephyr Birds do have bonus sight range, though…(6 total). Also, any basic scout will die against a slightly stronger unit(a Hatchling or Untouchable is easy to get, but will kill a Lost Soul or Wisp very easily… as long as it doesn’t get stunned), so that’s not much of an argument.
    For what it’s worth, they boosted the melee strength and added Wing Beat, for the Zephyr Bird. T2 research and 60 CP for a 6 viewing range guaranteed-flying summon isn’t that bad, either.

    They could go to 36 Move speed, though, like Gryphons and Eagle Riders. Actually, they probably outright should.

    #206561

    Taykor
    Member

    I’m getting even more convinced that there are too little skills in specialisations. There are too little of them to smooth “unequalities” of certain class-specs combinations, even just specs alone evidently aren’t balanced.
    I think that very bad combinations just should not exist, and a need for a class to take specific specialisation to have a chance at defeating some other class is absolutely terrible. Of course, some combinations could be not optimal, but all of them must be playable.
    Of course, just plain number of abilities won’t help here. But with a small number, trying to create significantly different specs you’d get what we have now: some specs very useful and some – not so much, some versatile and some very situational, some no go for certain classes and some a must have. A pity.

    Anyway, bouh, all anyone is actually calling for is a refurbishment of these to be as neat as the new ones.

    And we really need something for Necros. These “domain of …” abilities not only useless for him, but also clutter his spellbook…
    Again, numbers of skills. If there were more skills useful for a necromancer (and an ability to simply remove a skill from the spellbook without researching it) then losing one skill as useless wouldn’t be so bad. Now one spell of four in adept is useless for a necro. Not nice.

    #206562

    Zaskow
    Member

    Zephyr Birds do have bonus sight range, though…(6 total). Also, any basic scout will die against a slightly stronger unit(a Hatchling or Untouchable is easy to get, but will kill a Lost Soul or Wisp very easily… as long as it doesn’t get stunned), so that’s not much of an argument.

    It was an argument on post where said that Bird is amazing scout. Utility of scouts is also defined how they could be successful in scout wars. Bird is weak in combats as any scout, could be nuked by spells easily and doesn’t deserve such big price.

    Also you need to consider that classes who needs flying scout has no need in other Air adept spells. Only class who needs Bird is Archdruid, maybe. But again half of spells just has no utility for AD. Domain of winter is useless for AD who have One with elements spell, Suffocate – too, because Root Spears is better.

    I was thinking about one thing. Some Secret spells are powerful enough and fitting for certain specs. What about moving them from Secret spell pool?
    I’m talking about Shock and Frost Missile.
    Move them on adepts and increase prices.

    #206566

    Bouh
    Member

    Anyway, bouh, all anyone is actually calling for is a refurbishment of these to be as neat as the new ones.

    Define “neet” please. You should know old spe received huge buffs with EL.

    Alignment specs add enough new stuff too. New stuff from elemental specs (especially adepts) is just not useful enough to compare.

    I’m starting to think you just can’t understand what I mean…

    You fail to think that stuff from elementals specs is just weak and need additional slots. Have any elemental spec something so effective as Cardinal culling?

    Yes. Cardinal culling will be a mastery spell, and most elemental masteries have something as worthy of this : hail storm, hellfire, earthquake, most wild mastery spells, disintegrate, condemn killing. Even for air mastery, wind ward and haste are underrated.

    In case of life drain – self-healing in battles, meditate – self-buffing for free.

    You still don’t get it.

    You may notice that no one (me too) complains about Fire spec. It’s good and usable, other elemental specs can’t provide comparable utility.

    And this is not due to the power of the spec itself but to the position of fire in the balance. As I said in another thread fire is now the best element in game.

    You keep saying it’s a bad thing, but some specializations are situationaly useful, and that’s enough from a balance point of view. A specialization doesn’t need to have absolutely all of its stuff useful all the time for whatever class-race combination you use. If that is the power you see in creation and new spe, then you indeed don’t understand how things work because it is again a case of addition versus improvement. Fire is a kind of exception for the reasons I mentioned (fire element is the best) and because it gives a summon to non summoning classes.

    Domain of winter has barely use for AD, Dreads (classes who could win from using Seeker) and Rogue, because they have good spells buffing town morale in hated terrains.
    Also only 2 races in game hate Arctic and 3 races dislike. I don’t think that this is big enough to justify filling slot by spec with almost useless spell.

    Domain of winter is a situational greater iron grip. AD and dread don’t have that. They do benefit from it if they find a city in winter climate. And air mastery can provide winter climate everywhere. It is again a situational spell, but if your ennemy happen to be hating winter, it’s a win. It’s situational, that is different from bad. Like freeze water.

    Krakens can’t win naval warfare for you, just because they are relatively expensive to spam and block sea ways. And they’re not usable anywhere, except water.

    So it looks like from “old spe are worthless” we are now at “some spells are not powerful enough” ? I’m sure that can continue to evolve as the conversation goes on.

    Rot could help against machines. But not very much. It’s just more profitable to deploy enough blight doctor for weakening and bugs with demolisher, if we talk about goblin theocrat. Other theocrats have bad chances against machines.

    You know, even for goblin theocrat rot will ADD on these units. Not replace. Making them that much more effective against machines. How can you consider the theocrat bad against machines AND consider this spell bad is beyond me. Something just doesn’t clic in your brain.

    #206588

    The new specializations have lots of neat synergies with themselves (like torchbearers creed spirit damage and shield of lights spirit damage resistance minus) and with various races and classes (stacking lifestealing).

    Adding some to the old specials will make them more fun. Consider frostbite on vengeful frost. That makes it actually useful for frostlings (who don’t have access to frostbite en mass until later in the game).

    Little things like that would not mess up balance and be fun.

    #206604

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Domain of winter is useless for AD who have One with elements spell

    Making a climate into liked suddenly makes One with Elements work where it might not have before(or turns that -150 from Hated for certain races after One with Elements, into +450 from Liked, which is a +600 difference!). Also, One with Elements doesn’t apply to cities at all(despite my best wishes), whereas the Domain of Winter spell does.

    #206632

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Isn’t it enough already that Necro can ignore all happiness limitations and has no need for Domain spells? Is someone seriously suggesting to give them something in reward for that as well, by tailoring those specifically to their needs?
    Which also means that Necro can happily change the land into something quite inhospitable for opponents …

    #206691

    Zaskow
    Member

    And this is not due to the power of the spec itself but to the position of fire in the balance

    Wrong.
    Fire ball is the best nuke spell in game.
    Skin of Oil – very useful debuff, excellent for using with convert spells.
    Summon Hell Hound – very useful T2 summon.
    As you can see NO ONE other adept can propose something useful in every situation.

    You keep saying it’s a bad thing, but some specializations are situationaly useful, and that’s enough from a balance point of view.

    This situational in game reality leads to barely use.

    A specialization doesn’t need to have absolutely all of its stuff useful all the time for whatever class-race combination you use.

    When we have only 1 really useful spell from specialization in every cases, it’s just ridiculous.

    And air mastery can provide winter climate everywhere.

    You see. Adepts must be useful enough without masters like Fire does.

    It is again a situational spell, but if your ennemy happen to be hating winter, it’s a win.

    Win? Really? Lol. I mentioned earlier how much races hate/dislike Arctic. Not very much. That’s why Blight Empire/Domain has much more utility then Arctic.

    So it looks like from “old spe are worthless” we are now at “some spells are not powerful enough” ?

    Kraken is worthless on surface or maps with small amount of water (which are the majority). Also you overestimate them on water. Krakens just can’t make you dominant at seas. Understandable?

    How can you consider the theocrat bad against machines AND consider this spell bad is beyond me.

    I can, because I used it enough earlier against machines. I wasn’t impressed. Low damage, because physical channel, almost useless debuff, except goblins, and relatively high price in CP.

    #206701

    Bouh
    Member

    The new specializations have lots of neat synergies with themselves (like torchbearers creed spirit damage and shield of lights spirit damage resistance minus) and with various races and classes (stacking lifestealing).

    That’s the new “cool thing”(TM). Synergies. Preferably with themselves, so it’s even more obvious. And preferably ignoring the already existing synergies, like domain of and empire of spells.

    But in practice, you only need to see Zaskow to understand that the synergies people are talking about are only the stupidly obvious ones.

    Because as said here some other synergies exists, like water with tigrans, or air with elves and archdruid.

    Now the new underground probably make earth sphere as useful as fire sphere, considering the power it gives by just ticking an option at the begining of the game. Creation and destruction always have been popular because of the alignement attachment.

    So really it never has been a problem of old spe, or even synergy. Air adept and mastery synergize very well with frostling now for example considering their attachment to artic climate and water always have been useful on maps with water or with goblins or for any race-class combo that have troubles with machines.

    So, ultimately, what are the complaints ?
    – baby krakens ;
    – vengeful frost ;
    – eagle ;
    – suffocate.
    And anyone not too stupid can notice here the similarities these things share, and see too things :
    – low power, low cost damage spells ;
    – specialized summons.

    The spells first : are they actualy bad ? They cost nothing to cast, so they are handy for that. And as damage spell, they can compliment class arsenal : for dreadnought and warlord who lack such a spell, for archdruid, rogue, theocrat and necromancer to give a new option to bypass resistances. What are the limitations ? Actualy, I think the best buff you can do to old spheres would be to allow heroes to cast these combat spells. The second best would be to make the AI more prone to cast them in combat, but this is more tricky. Adding a special effect to them would require a cp cost increase and a damage nerf. Yet their use can’t be denied.

    For summons, the “problem” is that they are not hell hounds. People never understood the usefulness of warships already, yet they always had some use to fight embarked units. With EL, they are better than ever, and baby krakens are as well. They not meant to block anything like Zaskow believe, they are meant to kill embarked units, and they have the power and speed to do it. And unlike warships, they do regenerate. And should you evolve one of then to mature kraken, you’ll be unstopable on seas, and with the new dwelling, this is not an irrelevant thing. For the eagle, it always has been underestimated. It is by far the best scout in game because of the best vision range and the best mobility. It’s a flying summon with irregular combat abilities. It’s not enough to make a good fighter obviously and as this is the only thing most people value, the discussion is pointless. It’s an intelligence unit, and only the theocrat and rogue won’t see an insane intelligence upgrade by using them, but this means all the other will.

    Now, can you actualy buff these units ? As most people only want a hell hound with a different colour, you simply can’t unless you turn them into blue and white hell hounds.

    There lies the state of old spe, well, we still have not talked about the conveniently ignore mana bonuses they give, which is in my experience the most interesting they give when you have the mastery. Both mana and research.

    #206707

    Zaskow
    Member

    So, ultimately, what are the complaints ?
    – baby krakens ;
    – vengeful frost ;
    – eagle ;
    – suffocate.

    1. Yes.
    2. No.
    3. Yes.
    4. No.
    Try to read first post one more time.
    Main complains were Birds, Kraken, Rot. Also summary ineffectiveness of elemental adepts comparing with alignment adepts.

    They not meant to block anything like Zaskow believe, they are meant to kill embarked units, and they have the power and speed to do it.

    You need to find enemy embarked units first. Enemy can use no-standard ways and easy avoid your krakens.

    t is by far the best scout in game because of the best vision range and the best mobility.

    Do you know anything about Rogue crows?

    It’s an intelligence unit, and only the theocrat and rogue won’t see an insane intelligence upgrade by using them, but this means all the other will.

    Other scouts are more cheaper. 3 Drones/wisps make scouting better than 2 birds.

    As most people only want a hell hound with a different colour, you simply can’t unless you turn them into blue and white hell hounds.

    Silliness. As always.
    Other people want to see different unit useful as Hound is. Lost mariner, for example. Interesting water(sea)-themed unit works fine on water and surface both.

    #206709

    Bob5
    Member

    Crows have no vision range bonus, they have 1 hex vision less than Zephyr bird on the surface, and 1 hex vision more UG because Zephyr bird lacks Night Vision. Obviously class scouts are generally cheaper and more cost effective, but Zephyr is mainly there for classes with crappy scouting like Warlord, or ones without reliable flying scouts like AD, or Necro which is a bit of a combo, Lost Soul scouts slow and is expensive, Zephyr has 2 hexes of vision over it, while Cadavers fall apart after 3 turns of scouting so they can’t scout anything further away than that. Cadavers also have terrible speed and vision range. Those classes are balanced around having crappier scouting.

    That said, I don’t think Kraken needs a change. I’m more curious to the question as to why water maps are seemingly unpopular in MP.

    #206712

    Zaskow
    Member

    Those classes are balanced around having crappier scouting.

    Still, it is not reasonable to choose Air adept for these classes only for Birds.

    That said, I don’t think Kraken needs a change.

    Well, there are less reasons to choose Water adept when you play surface maps. I’d like to see additional effects on existing spells or new spells for elemental adepts for compensation.

    #206716

    Bouh
    Member

    Main complains were Birds, Kraken, Rot. Also summary ineffectiveness of elemental adepts comparing with alignment adepts.

    Ok, you’re lucky I don’t want to go through the thread to verify. Anyway, saying rot is bad is stupid. Rot is definitely not bad. Now I guess that what you want is a chain lightning and nothing that is not identical to chain lightning wont will suit you.

    You need to find enemy embarked units first. Enemy can use no-standard ways and easy avoid your krakens.

    Oh, indeed, I forgot you absolutely can’t scout the ennemy to know where he is and where he goes…

    Do you know anything about Rogue crows?

    At least I know how to use them to scout the ennemy. Do you even know you can do that ?

    Other scouts are more cheaper. 3 Drones/wisps make scouting better than 2 birds.

    No, they don’t. Because they don’t fly and hence are lot slower.

    #206719

    Bob5
    Member

    Still, it is not reasonable to choose Air adept for these classes only for Birds.

    You also get Seeker, Domain of Winter, and Suffocate along with it. You don’t pick it just for birds, but because other upgrades are also useful. I’m currently playing Frostling Dread with Air Mastery and most skills are very useful, only Wind Ward really isn’t in that combo. Arctic Empire combines well with Free Movement Juggernauts and Frostlings in general, Seeker is logical on a ranged class, Air Elementals cover frost-resistant incorporeals, Domain of Winter provides city and garrison happiness that Dreads don’t have, Suffocate is a nuke that Dreads lack, and Zephyr Birds have 2 hexes of vision and 3 hexes of movement over Spy Drones. I didn’t pick Air just for birds, I picked it mainly for Arctic Empire and Seeker that also has a nuke, but it is a nice addition.

    #206725

    Zaskow
    Member

    No, they don’t. Because they don’t fly and hence are lot slower.

    They float and benefit from roads. Also Drone tends to kill enemy scout when scout’s battle happens.

    Oh, indeed, I forgot you absolutely can’t scout the ennemy to know where he is and where he goes…

    Do you really think that competent enemy will give you free possibilities to scout everything easily? Dumb AI – yes, but not experienced Human.

    Now I guess that what you want is a chain lightning and nothing that is not identical to chain lightning wont will suit you.

    Your guessing was wrong.
    I just wanted additional effects for Rot which could inflict other types of units, just like Rust strike has.

    I’m currently playing Frostling Dread with Air Mastery and most skills are very useful, only Wind Ward really isn’t in that combo. Arctic Empire combines well with Free Movement Juggernauts and Frostlings in general, Seeker is logical on a ranged class, Air Elementals cover frost-resistant incorporeals, Domain of Winter provides city and garrison happiness that Dreads don’t have, Suffocate is a nuke that Dreads lack, and Zephyr Birds have 2 hexes of vision and 3 hexes of movement over Spy Drones. I didn’t pick Air just for birds, I picked it mainly for Arctic Empire and Seeker that also has a nuke, but it is a nice addition.

    You choose it only for 1 class+race combo from… how many?

Viewing 30 posts - 31 through 60 (of 77 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.