Poor old specs…

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This topic contains 76 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by  Akinaba 7 years, 3 months ago.

Viewing 17 posts - 61 through 77 (of 77 total)
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  • #206728

    Bob5
    Member

    You choose it only for 1 class+race combo from… how many?

    It’s just an example, obviously there are more combo’s that benefit from Air. Elves also tend to do really well with it, and pretty much all Frostlings benefit from Air Mastery, not just Dreads.

    #206729

    I don’t think you would have to change the cp for a secondary effect on the elemental nukes, except for cripple on stoning, and then only 5 cp. The spells are adequate now, but not particularly exciting.

    And yes, many of the older specializations are excellent with various races and classes (air with the frostling as you said, fire with draconian, and air with dreadnoughts). But the newer ones (wild and the moral specials) are always useful in any circumstance for any class.

    Even the off choices, like shadowborn dreadnought still can boost their cavalry arm impressively, or make armored infantry and cavalry troops even cheaper.

    And grey guard adept or master is so useful on the dreadnought and warlord that I see little reason not to always take at least the adept.

    Minor nuke improvements would make the elemental specials up to code with both these newer ones and the still useful creation and destruction (heal, bless, and killer instinct/hasty plunder are never bad options).

    Also, I think the baby kraken is plenty useful. You can slay water stuff or slow embarked units, and they are savage rage compliant. Otherwise, the zepher bird is solid with wingbeat, but is probably just a tad over priced. It could use five more HP instead of the price decrease.

    #206815

    Bouh
    Member

    They float and benefit from roads. Also Drone tends to kill enemy scout when scout’s battle happens.

    Do you really think that competent enemy will give you free possibilities to scout everything easily? Dumb AI – yes, but not experienced Human.

    How hard are you trying to look that bad ? You know, the eagle has 2 hex more vision than drones, and a lot more speed. If you get killed by a drone, it’s either bad luck or plain stupidity. Besides, the drone will die too in the process of killing the bird, and if the drone is busy killing your bird scouting the ennemy, they are not scouting you. What do you always consider yourself AND your ennemy completely dumb ? Perhaps you are actualy that bad… You are not picturing your friends very well though…

    I just wanted additional effects for Rot which could inflict other types of units, just like Rust strike has.

    Oh, like -1 defense and -1 resistance which are UNIVERSAL effects ? Do you know what universal means ? It means it work for everything. Like even your physical damage dealing troups. Or the support your brought. Except the human one. As you say :”You choose it only for 1 class+race combo from… how many?”

    #206824

    Zaskow
    Member

    Besides, the drone will die too in the process of killing the bird, and if the drone is busy killing your bird scouting the ennemy, they are not scouting you.

    Is it too difficult for you to understand that scout wars is a large part of early game? Especially MP.

    What do you always consider yourself AND your ennemy completely dumb ? Perhaps you are actualy that bad… You are not picturing your friends very well though…

    You always consider that your opponent is dumb and prove your silly arguments only around this.

    Oh, like -1 defense and -1 resistance which are UNIVERSAL effects ? Do you know what universal means ? It means it work for everything.

    It seems you failed to think that Rot will be usable even your opponent hasn’t undead or machines. You know that in all cases you don’t know enemy class and race in MP. That’s why alignment specs which work fine against any targets are so popular in MP. And fire adept too.

    #206833

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Mediocrity doesn’t win games.

    #206868

    Zaskow
    Member

    Mediocrity doesn’t win games.

    If you said this about EL specs then you are terribly wrong.

    #206884

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Ugh, reading this back and forth is somewhat nauseating.

    Of the so-called following ‘list of issues’ that Bouh helpfully summarized:

    So, ultimately, what are the complaints ?
    – baby krakens ;
    – vengeful frost ;
    – eagle ;
    – suffocate.

    (I’m not listing Rot as an issue because, what the hell, really?)
    — Baby Krakens: are uniquely circumstantial units that are extremely cost effective when available, but obviously not when not so. Water is generally a rather circumstantial Specialization, but it covers several holes that particular setups might be lacking(Freeze Water for crossing water without Embarking and immobilizing Embarked enemies, Baby Krakens for water summon, Rot for anti-Machine/Undead, mass Healing and aoe damage spells…)
    — Vengeful Frost: are a cheap combat spell dealing damage in a rarely(less so now) resisted damage channel.
    I could see the spell gaining a chance(boosted perhaps, like Black Lightning’s Spirit Breaking?) to Inflict Frostbite effect, though.
    — Zephyr Bird: Simple a good unit. Not much to argue about here. Not everyone is a Rogue with access to Grimbeak Crows, and it’s better than Crows anyway. +20 CP and a higher research cost over a basic class scout is a fair tradeoff for what it can do if used wisely(extra vision range and being a Flyer also helps to avoid enemies).
    I could see it going to 36 Movement speed, though, as mentioned earlier. The same as Gryphons and Eagle Riders. The latter especially, being essentially a Zephyr Bird that is weighed down by a rider. The birds are different, true, but they both have Wing Beat now, so…
    — Suffocate: Is legitimately mediocre. The same damage/cost as Vengeful Frost, but being on the Physical channel, with Def being a generally higher stat than Res. Also, Undead/Machine/Incorporeal units are immune.
    I fully support the idea of adding a chance to inflict Choking Fumes on a valid target on top of the damage. CP cost may need to be increased a tiny bit in that case, though, since Choking Fumes is a significant debuff.

    #206885

    Ugh, reading this back and forth is somewhat nauseating.

    Of the so-called following ‘list of issues’ that Bouh helpfully summarized:

    So, ultimately, what are the complaints ?
    – baby krakens ;
    – vengeful frost ;
    – eagle ;
    – suffocate.

    (I’m not listing Rot as an issue because, what the hell, really?)
    — Baby Krakens: are uniquely circumstantial units that are extremely cost effective when available, but obviously not when not so. Water is generally a rather circumstantial Specialization, but it covers several holes that particular setups might be lacking(Freeze Water for crossing water without Embarking and immobilizing Embarked enemies, Baby Krakens for water summon, Rot for anti-Machine/Undead, mass Healing and aoe damage spells…)
    — Vengeful Frost: are a cheap combat spell dealing damage in a rarely(less so now) resisted damage channel.
    I could see the spell gaining a chance(boosted perhaps, like Black Lightning’s Spirit Breaking?) to Inflict Frostbite effect, though.
    — Zephyr Bird: Simple a good unit. Not much to argue about here. Not everyone is a Rogue with access to Grimbeak Crows, and it’s better than Crows anyway. +20 CP and a higher research cost over a basic class scout is a fair tradeoff for what it can do if used wisely(extra vision range and being a Flyer also helps to avoid enemies).
    I could see it going to 36 Movement speed, though, as mentioned earlier. The same as Gryphons and Eagle Riders. The latter especially, being essentially a Zephyr Bird that is weighed down by a rider. The birds are different, true, but they both have Wing Beat now, so…
    — Suffocate: Is legitimately mediocre. The same damage/cost as Vengeful Frost, but being on the Physical channel, with Def being a generally higher stat than Res. Also, Undead/Machine/Incorporeal units are immune.
    I fully support the idea of adding a chance to inflict Choking Fumes on a valid target on top of the damage. CP cost may need to be increased a tiny bit in that case, though, since Choking Fumes is a significant debuff.

    I like all these suggestions, especially Suffocate suggestions. I end using very little Suffocate in games, because usually my leader have a better thing to do with his turn. If it had a chance to Debuff it would be much more usefull.

    #206891

    Zaskow
    Member

    — Vengeful Frost: are a cheap combat spell dealing damage in a rarely(less so now) resisted damage channel.
    I could see the spell gaining a chance(boosted perhaps, like Black Lightning’s Spirit Breaking?) to Inflict Frostbite effect, though.

    There was no complains from me about this spell. Bouh just didn’t read first post.

    — Zephyr Bird: Simple a good unit. Not much to argue about here. Not everyone is a Rogue with access to Grimbeak Crows, and it’s better than Crows anyway. +20 CP and a higher research cost over a basic class scout is a fair tradeoff for what it can do if used wisely(extra vision range and being a Flyer also helps to avoid enemies).

    I don’t think that +80 RP and +20 mana/CP needed and +3 mana/turn (compared with Crows) is worth it. Yes, class scout must be cheaper, but not so much. Also I tends to agree with buffing Birds. If they suppose to be best scout why not go further?

    — Suffocate: Is legitimately mediocre. The same damage/cost as Vengeful Frost, but being on the Physical channel, with Def being a generally higher stat than Res. Also, Undead/Machine/Incorporeal units are immune.

    Don’t worth this price, especially it you have better nuke.
    Choking is fitted good with Suffocate.

    #206985

    NuMetal
    Member

    I am beginning to feel Zaskow’s understanding of balance and value are totally different from the rest of the playerbase.

    Indeed.

    It’s true that the new specs kick – but they have a downside, and that downside may be pretty costly. With Grey Guard your decisions depend on your current count. If you are already in the evil, declaring war is a nono, which may be really bothersome. The other two force you into a certain kind of decision all the time.

    This!!!

    #206997

    Bouh
    Member

    Is it too difficult for you to understand that scout wars is a large part of early game? Especially MP.

    Yes. And do you know why people do scout wars ? And what resources they invest into it ? Do you know you exploit this ? Just because people do stupid things by copying what someone good did doesn’t mean it’s always the best strategy to do or the only one effective.

    It seems you failed to think that Rot will be usable even your opponent hasn’t undead or machines. You know that in all cases you don’t know enemy class and race in MP. That’s why alignment specs which work fine against any targets are so popular in MP. And fire adept too.

    Do you understand the concept of covering your weaknesses ?

    I know it’s easier when you don’t have to think whether a research will be good or not and you can blindly and stupidly research it and use it everywhere, but that doesn’t mean specific stuff is not good. Particularly when you have weaknesses and that specific stuff can cover the weaknesses, like, imagin you are a theocrat and you have troubles against machines, and BAM rot will give you the edge you lack.

    #207000

    Bouh
    Member

    — Suffocate: Is legitimately mediocre. The same damage/cost as Vengeful Frost, but being on the Physical channel, with Def being a generally higher stat than Res. Also, Undead/Machine/Incorporeal units are immune.
    I fully support the idea of adding a chance to inflict Choking Fumes on a valid target on top of the damage. CP cost may need to be increased a tiny bit in that case, though, since Choking Fumes is a significant debuff.

    Suffocate is still useful in two cases :
    – for units imune or resistant to your class damage spell ;
    – for when this cheaper spell is enough to kill something (save CP).

    — Vengeful Frost: are a cheap combat spell dealing damage in a rarely(less so now) resisted damage channel.
    I could see the spell gaining a chance(boosted perhaps, like Black Lightning’s Spirit Breaking?) to Inflict Frostbite effect, though.

    -2 defense effect is a rather strong effect. Spells with aditional effect are all less powerful and more expensive than vengeful frost. I’m not opposed to an additional effect, but then cost will need to rise IMO.

    #207011

    Zaskow
    Member

    Yes. And do you know why people do scout wars ? And what resources they invest into it ? Do you know you exploit this ? Just because people do stupid things by copying what someone good did doesn’t mean it’s always the best strategy to do or the only one effective.

    I don’t want to comment so dumb and noobish post about MP tactics.

    Do you understand the concept of covering your weaknesses ?

    Do you understand that in game reality this DOESN’T cover your weaknesses at all? Rot can’t save from machines if you’re theo without Armageddon.
    Rot can help you a bit if you’re Rogue against undead, but Rogue doesn’t need other spells from Water adept.

    #207013

    Bouh
    Member

    Do you understand that in game reality this DOESN’T cover your weaknesses at all? Rot can’t save from machines if you’re theo without Armageddon.

    Yes it can. Learn to play.

    #207014

    Zaskow
    Member

    Yes it can. Learn to play.

    When you can’t argument, just use L2P arguments. So predictable.

    #207054

    Bouh
    Member

    When you can’t argument, just use L2P arguments. So predictable.

    Hypocrisy by the example. Or irony, depending on the level of intelligence.

    #207911

    Akinaba
    Member

    Let me add the two cents to the point of the Summon Creature Spells in the core Specializations, particulary Air, Fire and Water:

    1. Lets look at the two basic Summon Creature spells that we could take as a model for consideration. We have

    Summon Wild Animal:
    Spell Tier: T1
    esearch: 60 RP;
    Casting Points: 40 CP;
    Upkeep: 9 Mana;
    Effect: Summons a random T1 animal;

    Summon Eldritch Animal:
    Spell Tier: T2
    Research: 120 RP;
    Casting Points: 70 CP;
    Upkeep: 12 Mana;
    Effect: Summons a random T2 animal;

    2. Now let’s look onto those two spells we re talking here about:

    Summon Zephyr Bird:
    Spell Tier: T2
    Research: 120 RP;
    Casting Points: 60 CP;
    Upkeep: 12 Mana;
    Effect: Summons T1 flying animal;

    Summon Baby Kraken:
    Spell Tier: T3
    Research: 220 RP;
    Casting Points: 70 CP;
    Upkeep: 9 Mana;
    Effect: Summons a swimming, evolving T2 animal;

    Summon Hell Hound:
    Spell Tier: T3
    Research: 180 RP;
    Casting Points: 70 CP;
    Upkeep: 12 Mana;
    Effect: Summons a dedicated to Evil, lava walking T2 animal;

    Don’t you feel something messy here?

    While I can understand why Summon Baby Kraken cost 220 RP (since it’s somehow ultimate water summon) I still can not understand why it’s upkeep is only 9 mana then?
    Common mana upkeep for Summon a T2 Animal is 12 mana at least as what we can see on AD.

    And Zephyr Bird… 12 mana upkeep and 60 CP only for not really reliable T1 animal (even flying)? Not to speak of twice as much research points required comparetively to 60 RP Summon Wild Animal spell.

    As for Hell Hound it’s Research is not that much and overall it’s okay, but still what I can see is some mess around there…

    Okay, let’s suppose that comparing common specialzation apells with an AD Class spells is not that legitimate, beacause Arch Druid is supposed to be like an Ultimate Animal Summoner hence you can suppose his summon spells will be cheaper. But still we have totall mess in the summoning spells out there…

    So I’ll be so brave to suppose that this three spells should come into one line.

    All this creatures exept Zephyr birds are T2 units. So my first suggestion would be to make ZB a T2 creature. I always felt it like too weak and by weak I mean “thing” – the lack of HP for survival. Indeed it only has 30 HP that is nonesence even for some T1 creatures. So giving it simple +10 HP and making it 40 HP totall will make a good exusion to push it to the T2. (I also suggested to give it abother (shock) damage channel, but that’s the lirycs).
    * Make Zephyr Bird a T2 creature and give it a bit more HP or other means of survival in combat.

    After we will have all the creatures tweaked in line it would be logically that we should push all three spells into decent tier equal to their research points.

    Lets suppose I was right and nobody can summmon living creatures as AD so lets Determine the possible research points somewhere between 160 and 180 then. I’f I’m wrong then their research coust should be simply equal to an AD Summon Spells and It would be 120.
    * Make the tier of spells T2 if they would cost 120 or 140 and T3 if their research points will be 160 or 180

    Casting points and upkeep chost should be tweaked acctordingly: 70 CP and 12 mana upkeep if we consider no tweaks above AD spells and I don’t even know what price to give them If we assume that common people should not get what AD has…

    That’s my thoughts on aligning three spells that I personnaly consider being really scattered in those specializations. Thanks.

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