Prospectors

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Prospectors

This topic contains 18 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  ninninnin 7 years ago.

Viewing 19 posts - 1 through 19 (of 19 total)
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  • #197855

    Teehon
    Member

    Hey, I think the Prospectors could use a small buff to their combat capabilities. I love the irregulars for the new races – I find Adventures, Ice Scrapers and Pouncers all awesome.
    But the Prospector gets nothing with ANY Race Governance level, (Throw Net on Pouncers is amazing!!), is fragile and is neither ranged nor melee. His Throw Stones deal 11 damage, is direct shot (-75% line of sight) and does no debuffs. His melee is laughable and his +1+1 dwarven bonus is wasted on him because he die from any other Irregular unit anyway.
    I love the unit strategically, but as a Warlord I’d rather prefer to summon any other Irregular unit than these guys.
    My proposals:
    1. Make Prospector a bit more tough – one more defense, maybe armoured so he’ll get Meteoric etc. bonuses. Up the initial health to 35.
    2. Make Throw Stones a more interesting ability, either inflicting Crippling like the Shoot Musket (getting pelled with stones is very distracting) or make it short range (you can’t theoretically throw stones with hand as far as shoot an arrow with a bow!) but deal significantly more damage, 15 or so.
    3. Give him some additional combat ability with a CD, like throw Granades for 6 phisical 6 fire damage but no blinding (Maybe even AoE? Then once per combat). Miners use explosives for mining, so why not?
    Mind you, I am not saying he needs to get ALL of these 😀
    I know most people say dwarves are powerful as is, but IMHO Prospectors are simply pathetic for a race which values Slow and Steady approach.

    #197863

    Gloweye
    Member

    His Throw Stones deal 11 damage, is direct shot (-75% line of sight) and does no debuffs.

    Just like any other single shot irregular.

    His melee is laughable and his +1+1 dwarven bonus is wasted on him because he die from any other Irregular unit anyway.

    He’ll defeat a Civic Guard.

    1. Make Prospector a bit more tough – one more defense, maybe armoured so he’ll get Meteoric etc. bonuses. Up the initial health to 35.

    I can get into the Armored thing(if only cause he’s a dwarf, mind you – dwarf scoundrels even get it), but I really don’t think he needs anything else. Not every unit can be amazing – you can only build one at a time and basic Irregulars aren’t supposed to be that useful come mid/late game.

    #197889

    NINJEW
    Member

    He’ll defeat a Civic Guard.

    Civic Guard can throw a net over him now, which makes it a bit less cut and dry

    #197904

    Gloweye
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Gloweye wrote:</div>
    He’ll defeat a Civic Guard.

    Civic Guard can throw a net over him now, which makes it a bit less cut and dry

    Racial Governance => not guaranteed. The alternative is cheaper settlers, which might be better depending on map setting. Also, It never applies to independents.

    Dwarf’s eco mirror pick is +8 gold per tunneling hex, which can arguably be stronger, though maybe not in direct combat.

    #197915

    madmac
    Member

    I think just giving them armored is enough of a fix, honestly.

    #197928

    Yeah, why not. Dwarf hunters and shaman are armored as well.

    #197941

    Teehon
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>teehon_noin_annenkov wrote:</div>
    His Throw Stones deal 11 damage, is direct shot (-75% line of sight) and does no debuffs.

    Just like any other single shot irregular.

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>teehon_noin_annenkov wrote:</div>
    His melee is laughable and his +1+1 dwarven bonus is wasted on him because he die from any other Irregular unit anyway.

    He’ll defeat a Civic Guard.

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>teehon_noin_annenkov wrote:</div>
    1. Make Prospector a bit more tough – one more defense, maybe armoured so he’ll get Meteoric etc. bonuses. Up the initial health to 35.

    I can get into the Armored thing(if only cause he’s a dwarf, mind you – dwarf scoundrels even get it), but I really don’t think he needs anything else. Not every unit can be amazing – you can only build one at a time and basic Irregulars aren’t supposed to be that useful come mid/late game.

    Right now Civic Guard has the same defense of 9 but 1 less resistance. Not counting throwing nets, he also has volunteer and cost less.

    I know they are not supposed to be amazing. But Ice Scrapers, Cheetas, Adventurers, Elf Initiates, Goblin Untouchables and arguably Orc Spears, Civil Guards can stay useful way into middle game. Dwarven ones are still one of the most expansive – they should have at least some usability in battle.

    #197945

    ephafn
    Member

    Isn’t the only problem with the prospector not the combat ability (they are strong than all non-orc vanilla irregular), but that they the irregular with the most boring ability, now that civic guards can get throw net? Tunnelling is a pretty good ability, although being on the strategic level only makes it pretty boring (Shatter Strike is pretty much irrelevant).

    Their Gold medal bonus (Wall Crushing) looks pretty neat, until you realize you won’t get enough Gold-Prospector for it to matter, and those with it will easily be killed by town defenders. Making it the Bronze bonus would be cool, but probably overpowered for those with easy access to Bronze irregular (= rogues).

    #197950

    Gloweye
    Member

    Their Gold medal bonus (Wall Crushing) looks pretty neat, until you realize you won’t get enough Gold-Prospector for it to matter, and those with it will easily be killed by town defenders. Making it the Bronze bonus would be cool, but probably overpowered for those with easy access to Bronze irregular (= rogues).

    I doubt it. Rogues get scoundrels with Sabotage, which deals much more damage to walls, and Dwarf Scoundrels get armored. They also have the additional advantage of Evolving.

    For the later game, Rogues don’t have that much use for Wall Crushing anyway – the Assassin is the strongest unit to care, and that one gets Pass Wall on Gold/Dark Pact.

    #198044

    Teehon
    Member

    Isn’t the only problem with the prospector not the combat ability (they are strong than all non-orc vanilla irregular), but that they the irregular with the most boring ability, now that civic guards can get throw net? Tunnelling is a pretty good ability, although being on the strategic level only makes it pretty boring (Shatter Strike is pretty much irrelevant).

    Their Gold medal bonus (Wall Crushing) looks pretty neat, until you realize you won’t get enough Gold-Prospector for it to matter, and those with it will easily be killed by town defenders. Making it the Bronze bonus would be cool, but probably overpowered for those with easy access to Bronze irregular (= rogues).

    Saying that they are stronger than all non-orc irregulars is pretty much false.
    Irregulars with better damage potential:
    Initiate
    Adventurer
    Ice Scraper (The damage is 3|5, but it has a chance to Freeze + Shatter Strike to kill frozen units more efficiently)
    Cheetah
    Hatchling (Damage is the same, 11, but it’s fire so it’s normally more effective + can shoot while engaged)
    Untouchable (Once again, the damage is 11 but it’s elemental and it also has Inflict Noxious Vulnurability AND Stench, the only difference otherwise is 3 HP and 1 Def)

    Additionally, Initiates and Hatchling Evolve.

    Now, the only one who is left is the Civic Guard.
    Let’s compare:

    Dwarf Prospector
    33 HP
    28 MP
    9 Def
    9 Res
    8 Melee
    11 Ranged
    Cost 44 4/turn

    Civic Guard
    35 HP
    28 MP
    9 Def
    8 Res
    8 Melee
    11 Ranged
    Cost 40 2/Turn

    So, the dwarf has 1 more Res, but 2 less HP (So in the face to face confrontation Civic Guard will statistically win over Prospector in more cases) while everything is the same BUT the dwarf is 4 gold more expansive and TWO times more expensive in upkeep.

    Yes, Prospector is the worst irregular.

    #198054

    Serahfemme
    Member

    We had a topic JUST like this a few days ago, and like I said there, you can’t just compare irregular to irregular and try to talk balance- 1 to 1 unit comparison across races doesn’t work like that. Different races have different strengths at different points in their unit roster, and someone has to have the worst irregular- why not dwarves, who arguably have one of the strongest line ups in the game?

    Not every irregular should be as amazing as the Tigran Cheetah, Goblin Untouchable, or Halfling Adventurer, just like not every infantry needs to be as good as the Dwarven Axeman or Orc Greatsword. That’s how asymmetrical balance works; I might be inclined to agree that the Dwarf Prospector needs a change if the Dwarves were struggling in some way but they’re arguably one of the better races already. I worry even a small buff to their irregular might make them too good.

    #198070

    ariga
    Member

    Yes the balancing is not about unit/unit like @serahfemme said.
    When you want to balance you got to think about the whole class or race since some unit are better than other when u compare race but for example elf longsword is(was before stupid patch because of whine) weaker than other but they got best archer with many governance buffing them & also best support by far(who also benefit from gov upgrade) getting inflict stun on gold so since their ranged are overwhelming they had to get weaker melee otherway they would be too strong. For Orc it’s the opposite they get very good melee damage so they had to get weaker ranged(orc archer do low damage but inflict bleeding & got good melee damage) and support do also little less damage).
    For dwarf they are tougher, so they lose mobility(T3 with 28 movement while other race T3 get 30 fly or 36 fly/cav (except for Orc who get 32 but got guard breaker & tireless) ) & T2 cav with 32 mouvement instead of 36. Also their archer are not that’s great since they got single shoot(even if better for 1 hit attack). When u do fight right you can hit 3 times with archer at full damage most of time after the fight is engaged & also benefit more from the archer extra building from site(+1 physical/+2 lightning damage/hit) or medal since +1 damage give +1 damage to the 3 hit(so +3 damage) while crossbow benefit from it one hit(+1 damage). And many people talk about them being better vs T3 T4 but they are not that much better if the t3 t4 got 15 armor you will do with archer at 1-2/hit(so 3-6 for 3 hit) while crossbowman with 17 damage while do 2 damage(without medal). Also with range penalty u sure to do at least 3 damage on 3 hit while crossbowman can do less if the unit is too armored

    And no prospector don t need Up please dev stop up unit because people complain about it while it’s balanced T.T

    #198072

    Teehon
    Member

    We had a topic JUST like this a few days ago, and like I said there, you can’t just compare irregular to irregular and try to talk balance- 1 to 1 unit comparison across races doesn’t work like that. Different races have different strengths at different points in their unit roster, and someone has to have the worst irregular- why not dwarves, who arguably have one of the strongest line ups in the game?

    Not every irregular should be as amazing as the Tigran Cheetah, Goblin Untouchable, or Halfling Adventurer, just like not every infantry needs to be as good as the Dwarven Axeman or Orc Greatsword. That’s how asymmetrical balance works; I might be inclined to agree that the Dwarf Prospector needs a change if the Dwarves were struggling in some way but they’re arguably one of the better races already. I worry even a small buff to their irregular might make them too good.

    I fail to see how buffing irregulars which get obsolete will affect overall balance at all.
    Right now, I simply don’t use Prospectors militarily at all. If they get a bit better combat abilities I just sometimes might, but they need a lot to actually be amazing.

    #198076

    ariga
    Member

    I fail to see how buffing irregulars which get obsolete will affect overall balance at all.<br>
    Right now, I simply don’t use Prospectors militarily at all. If they get a bit better combat abilities I just sometimes might, but they need a lot to actually be amazing.

    The problem is dwarf allready got nice unit so irregular & archer got to be their weakness, like archer & resist is Orc weakness. They are still not that far than other yes they are little less effective than any other irregular & cost more but they still have enough impact not to need an up since the rest of dwarf is nice
    Don’t forget dwarf got best Race bonus also + 1res + 1 armor is really nice & only price as compensation it’s harder to prod unit in 1 turn but you can prod big unit like T3 & T4 as fast as other race

    #198080

    Serahfemme
    Member

    I fail to see how buffing irregulars which get obsolete will affect overall balance at all.
    Right now, I simply don’t use Prospectors militarily at all. If they get a bit better combat abilities I just sometimes might, but they need a lot to actually be amazing.

    That opportunity cost of generally having to skip over your irregulars entirely is a small but important balance consideration with dwarves; it might not sound like much, but in smaller maps or big FFAs the decision to skip over building an irregular or two on your new outposts and border towns might lead to you losing them to a simple scout. With races that have really good irregulars (Halflings, Tigrans, Goblins come to mind) you’ll probably build at least 1 because these units can still be useful to a degree in early game skirmishes, but with Dwarves you usually skip over them which can sometimes make you vulnerable to early rushes while you’re building up your infrastructure.

    Irregular strength is also important to the Rogue and Warlord classes; Rogues like irregulars because they can be pumped up by several early game empire upgrades, giving them access to relatively powerful and cheap armies fast. I’ve won games in multiplayer by blitzing someone with stacks of Scoundrels and Untouchables buffed up by Irregular Training. Warlords also get Raise Militia, which can also gather up stacks of irregulars quickly. When we consider that Dwarves already make good Rogues and Warlords for reasons other than their irregulars (for rogue, their Scoundrels get mountain concealment which is huge and Bards get Heavy Crossbows, and for Warlord their Monster Hunters get Heavy Crossbows and their Phalanxes get Defensive Strike), a buff to their irregular might take Dwarf Warlords and Rogues from simply being good to being the best.

    In short: no one thinks the dwarves as a race are weak, they’re generally considered top tier already, and thus any buffs to any of their units should be very carefully considered, even a small buff to their irregular.

    #198250

    Let’s compare:

    Dwarf Prospector<br>
    33 HP<br>
    28 MP<br>
    9 Def<br>
    9 Res<br>
    8 Melee<br>
    11 Ranged<br>
    Cost 44 4/turn

    Civic Guard<br>
    35 HP<br>
    28 MP<br>
    9 Def<br>
    8 Res<br>
    8 Melee<br>
    11 Ranged<br>
    Cost 40 2/Turn

    Comparing those two, the only thing I thought it was weird was the 33 HP on Prospector and the 35 HP on the Civic Guard, it should be the opposite…a dwarf anything should always be toughter than a Human!! But besides that I think it is a Tie, what makes Civic Guard better is the Volunteer. But Tunneling is not to throw away, I just hope for better underground then I will be able to use Prospectors more often.

    #198289

    Mc-doge
    Member

    But Tunneling is not to throw away, I just hope for better underground then I will be able to use Prospectors more often.

    Tunneling is one of those map dependent abilities that in no way should effect unit balance. At most you are getting a whopping 12 gold, and to top it off for dwarfs it is going to lower a cities happiness potential. So in evalualtion the only time to do it is when you need a path, or you are being tricky with a watchtower. In other instances it isn’t worth it as early game you will likely be attacked by neutrals who will likely eat the shite prospector. The upkeep factor is always there and you are eventually facing this problem where you created a 44 gold irregular who has to eat dirt to make money, and who probably will never pay for itself.

    I think all that anyone wants; who may agree on the prospectors low degenerate status among irregulars, is that the irregular is given something to make them useful. If they are meant to tear down walls, then give them the skill early, ect.

    The thing that it needs is: 1) More armour; it’s a dwarf and it is average hp, and it has 8 base armour +1. That is a horrible design to give for dwarfs.

    2) It has no synergy with itself or anything dwarf for that matter. Shatter strike is all it really gets, and frankly mite as well be taken off to make it cheaper. Cheaper is good, useless is not.

    #198297

    Teehon
    Member

    I fail to see how buffing irregulars which get obsolete will affect overall balance at all.<br>
    Right now, I simply don’t use Prospectors militarily at all. If they get a bit better combat abilities I just sometimes might, but they need a lot to actually be amazing.

    That opportunity cost of generally having to skip over your irregulars entirely is a small but important balance consideration with dwarves; it might not sound like much, but in smaller maps or big FFAs the decision to skip over building an irregular or two on your new outposts and border towns might lead to you losing them to a simple scout. With races that have really good irregulars (Halflings, Tigrans, Goblins come to mind) you’ll probably build at least 1 because these units can still be useful to a degree in early game skirmishes, but with Dwarves you usually skip over them which can sometimes make you vulnerable to early rushes while you’re building up your infrastructure.

    Irregular strength is also important to the Rogue and Warlord classes; Rogues like irregulars because they can be pumped up by several early game empire upgrades, giving them access to relatively powerful and cheap armies fast. I’ve won games in multiplayer by blitzing someone with stacks of Scoundrels and Untouchables buffed up by Irregular Training. Warlords also get Raise Militia, which can also gather up stacks of irregulars quickly. When we consider that Dwarves already make good Rogues and Warlords for reasons other than their irregulars (for rogue, their Scoundrels get mountain concealment which is huge and Bards get Heavy Crossbows, and for Warlord their Monster Hunters get Heavy Crossbows and their Phalanxes get Defensive Strike), a buff to their irregular might take Dwarf Warlords and Rogues from simply being good to being the best.

    In short: no one thinks the dwarves as a race are weak, they’re generally considered top tier already, and thus any buffs to any of their units should be very carefully considered, even a small buff to their irregular.

    I thought about it and in my personal opinion ALL the irregulars are useful in a fight (Hatchling with it’s Fire damage, Initiate with it’s Shock and an ability to evolve etc), even the Orc Spearman which is fast and can set flanks thanks to Sprint.
    The Prospectors are rather useless instead.
    People often don’t realize that dwarves have hidden weaknesses as well – for example, their +10% cost also affects the units which do not fight at all! So you need more gold and population to build a Pioneer for whom the +1 +1 bonus is irrelevant. Moreover, they like mountains which are impossible to terraform (not so easy to keep cities happy) and they have no innate city production bonus.

    Actually I never felt that not building Prospectors was a balancing factor, I believe that if there is a unit in the race roster it should be useful. And it just doesn’t suit dwarves to have units which can’t fight at all.

    #198426

    ninninnin
    Member

    let them build roads and watch towers. i remember back in master of magic dwarves were some of the best road builders.

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