Races Survey and Terraria Wonders

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This topic contains 196 replies, has 68 voices, and was last updated by  BB Shockwave 6 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #216703

    vota dc
    Member

    This makes me very very sad. AoW has replay-ability at the moment because the classes > races.

    The game is already playable with racial tier 3 spam, and specialization summons from tier 4. If classes are weakened further, then you effectively remove them from the game entirely.

    I think that races and classes could interact better.
    Right now the all techno dreadnought goblin can employ tribal mosquito thrower goblins, the nature lover human archdruid can employ knights totally covered by steel.
    Changing this would make both races and classes more relevant.

    #216723

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Just goes to show that people actually have no idea. Classes over Races is what actually made the game great in the first place; gradually and individually increasing the differences between races without losing the basic order of class over race has made it even greater.

    Going now to race over class would just be folly.

    #216741

    Joohaan
    Member

    Just goes to show that people actually have no idea. Classes over Races is what actually made the game great in the first place; gradually and individually increasing the differences between races without losing the basic order of class over race has made it even greater.

    Going now to race over class would just be folly.

    And here I’m sitting with the exact opposite opinion. Having classes play such a big part was the only thing that didn’t feel right (for me) at launch. It’s better now after they’ve added another class, since for alot of people classes have been comparable to races. So, basically (for me atleast), there were 6 “races” to begin with. Now there are 7.

    Yes, a dwarf dreadnought might have a different playstyle from a draconian dreadnought, especially in online games, but for loads of people they play the same. I see the same units, with more or less the same skills, looking more or less the same.

    Like I’ve said though, my biggest personal gripe is with the illogical race/class-combos. I don’t see how a goblin theocrat is viable… do they even have religion? Or an elven dreadnought… nature loving, forest dwelling unicorn riders.. and cannons… don’t wanna forget them cannons.

    I think that races and classes could interact better.
    Right now the all techno dreadnought goblin can employ tribal mosquito thrower goblins, the nature lover human archdruid can employ knights totally covered by steel.
    Changing this would make both races and classes more relevant.

    This…

    #216743

    Yigg
    Member

    I appreciate that Triumph is asking for feedback on aspects of an already stellar game.
    Logistics is a skill common to all classes. What if there was an additional Logistics rank that allowed re-arrangement of units before battle commences? So many times I find a slow moving Infantry sitting at the back of a combat arrangement, and it makes no sense.

    #216750

    Wallthing
    Member

    Like I’ve said though, my biggest personal gripe is with the illogical race/class-combos. I don’t see how a goblin theocrat is viable… do they even have religion? Or an elven dreadnought… nature loving, forest dwelling unicorn riders.. and cannons… don’t wanna forget them cannons.

    I admit that it is moderately difficult to reconcile a unicorn rider with technomagical industrialism, but you don’t see how a goblin theocrat would work out?

    Goblins are a disenfranchised group with a large population and high reproduction that is often forced to live in marginal lands. They likely have poor or no general education and a dismal economic outlook for the average goblin. That’s almost a caricature of a religious extremist’s background and nearly as much a stereotype of a highly religious culture. The wonder is how goblins don’t have a thousand theocrats stirring up trouble all the time.

    #216757

    Centurion-X
    Member

    I remind to everyone who wants to see the one or the other folk in the game of our dream about our collective petition to the developers with the request to add, of course, in its sole discretion, some of the missing old races (azracs, archons, dark elves, shadow demons, syrons, lizardmen) and the modding tools with mods’ support at a level when everyone can add their own beloved race by yourself!

    please sign: http://www.change.org/p/petition-to-triumph-studios

    discussion of the petition: http://www.aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/the-request-to-continue-the-development-of-the-beloved-game/

    #216763

    nspannaus
    Member

    I appreciate that Triumph is asking for feedback on aspects of an already stellar game.
    Logistics is a skill common to all classes. What if there was an additional Logistics rank that allowed re-arrangement of units before battle commences? So many times I find a slow moving Infantry sitting at the back of a combat arrangement, and it makes no sense.

    What if every army consisted of units assigned to either FRONT or REAR. Those specifications could be built into the class (ie. support/ranged units automatically set to REAR; melee set to FRONT) or maybe each unit could have a manual toggle switch.

    Either way, I think that’d make the first round of battles a bit more streamlined.

    #216764

    nspannaus
    Member

    Based on the game’s mythology, shouldn’t the races have built-in LIKES and DISLIKES for other races that impact diplomacy? Or does the morality system replace that?

    #216783

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    @ Joohaan
    With 63 combos possible, there is nothing wrong with disliking or even hating a handful of them. Just KILL THEM! (Play against Elven Dread and Goblin Theo and make them pay for their heresy!) 🙂

    I admit, it’s a bit work involved, but just look at the Tome of Wonders and compare a Class unit of the 9 different races. In the balance section there is an AD discussion going on, for example, and the Shaman was under examination there, Tigran Shaman costing 190 prod (exceptional price) coming with the Wear Bear ability (which is kind of the upgraded Tigran Mystic ability). Looking at those, one sees, for example, that the Draconian Shaman not only has a Blight ranged attack, but also a Fire ranged, and gets 2 Fire and 2 blight ranged points for medals instead of 2 ranged and two melees …

    This may not look like a lot of difference, but considering battles and tactics it is – Tigran and Draconian Shaman (they have also different stats and regeneration and a couple of other differences) are two COMPLETELY different units, one always having a choice between 2 ranged magic channels, the other having a choice between being a support or becoming a tank. 🙂

    #216786

    Carighan
    Member

    There’s a bug with the survey. The last option, to have more unique gameplay on cost of balances, has no option past “Strongly Agree”. And I couldn’t select it 5x, either.

    Thinking back to Master of Magic, what made it stand out to me is that things were, well, overpowered. I could freaking stop time. It’s this stuff I am after. I want to feel like a really really powerful mage. 😀

    #216787

    ten9
    Member

    What I see is a difference in opinion between the competitive multiplayer crowd and the people that prefer single player, play less frequent and care more about fantasy Lore and immersion. The latter group is much larger, though less vocal.

    I understand that all the class race combos give us countless options for replayability. But replayability has always been good, look at Age of Wonders Shadow Magic.

    Allowing all these combos and giving classes the importance they have now over the races, comes at a cost. It takes away some of the ‘magic’, the fantasy feeling that was so great in the previous games. This feeling, the immersion, I believe, is tied to the races, not the classes.
    People that play high fantasy games, usually read fantasy books or at least have some idea of what the Elves are and what they stand for. It just takes away some of the fun if I choose elves as starting race, and gradually find out it is not that important.

    Don’t get me wrong, racial governance and some other systems have improved the situation a bit. But immersion, and feel has not yet returned to the levels of AOW-SM for me. AOW3 with a few alterations can however get to those levels and even surpass it.

    #216788

    ExNihil
    Member

    I think the races could stand to be less symmetrical then they currently are without making balancing too too difficult. So pretty much I’m a moderate who wants a little more race stuff but I don’t want races to overshadow classes too much.

    I agree, I would like to see some attention given to the Vanilla races to introduce more inter-unit synergies (Frostlings) and unique abilities (Shapeshifting Tigrans). I also think most attention should be given to class-racial units and their diversification, currently some races have much broader class synergies than others, while some classes utilize racial units to a significantly greater extant than other classes.

    As far as new races are concerned, I have not played the older games and so don’t have any sentiments regarding the old races. I would like to see at lease one more UG capable race as well as another race with flying units (possibly even a t2?).

    I don’t feel a need for racial t4 units, but it wouldn’t necessarily be a bad addition to the game and could be fun. Also more machine units – either avatar or racial (esp. flying units!) would be an excellent addition.

    #216791

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    You have to be a bit more open to different types of immersion, especially when not playing an adventure or RPG. And from a STRATEGY game perspective AoW3 is lightyears aheadof AoW2 SM.
    I mean, come on, you cannot always play the cliché Elves. Explore NEW lore and find NEW immersion – that’s what things are all about, not always regurgitating the same stuff ad nauseam.

    This game has opened up a new dimension by finding a completely new way to synergize two completely different kinds of archetypes, the fantasy-race for one, and the, well, fantasy-profession for another – and abilities are more important than race traits, because you should think that races first and foremost have the ability to learn and adapt, because otherwise they would become victims of natural selection.

    That the game has the right “order” is proven by the fact that you could effortlessly introduce another half a dozen races – but try to find more different, meaningful classes. There may be one involving “demons” and summoning them via population sacrifices and incarnating stuff, but over and above that?

    #216794

    ExNihil
    Member

    I would be happy with another steam-punkish class, doesn’t need to be tech heavy at that, and could be more living unit oriented in combination with city and empire development capabilities – using “rational” or “scientific” magic. Alternatively a class that utilizes alchemical-magical-biological transformations and the like to create mutated units, combining monstrous with racial traits – like war-bread but for the entire class – could be a very intriguing option, I have suggested an artificer/alchemist specialization, some of the mechanics there could be used for a class easily. Of course there are any number of Shadowmancer/Demonologist/Shadow-Wizard classes that have been proposed as mixed or summoner classes, and these would work – but Necromancer made this less necessary. Finally, I wouldn’t mind seeing another nature oriented class as competition to AD, this time by focusing on the production (not summoning) of monster units with racial elements along the way.

    I think all of these are viable, but would require quite a bit of effort to develop into a working concept.

    #216806

    BB Shockwave
    Member

    Firstly, apologies, I misread Buczer’s post and thought he missed the Syrons and hit chance the MOST, not LEAST… so just take what I said and put it in reverse. 🙂

    I used to be a very strong supporter of extremely asymetrical races. Right up until I realized how very crippling it was to the AI and how much effort is required by the devs, not just to balance that, but to make an AI that can understand that it can’t play each faction similarly.

    I don’t want another Endless Legend where the only way the AI seems at all smart is to give it so many large bonuses that it isn’t required to play the same game as the player.

    Oh boy, you had to remind me of that! That game and Fallen Enchantress… And now they are making Sorcerer Kings, a game where the AI is basically in unbeatable God Mode with unlimited resources and troops as a fundamental part of the game. I tried each of these and they are poor imitations of MoM/AoW, the combat is especially lacking in them. Not to mention graphics that by today’s standards are ridiculously dated, and I am the kind of guy who still goes back to playing Nectaris without being bothered by pixels…

    #216808

    BB Shockwave
    Member

    There could be an Alchemist Class, maybe – if you want another tech class. Think of it like the Wild Magic specs, but the buffs would be instead mutations and magic potions that are permanent researches. They should enhance your units with mutations (class and racial) like a Warlord’s or Theocrat’s such passive skills.
    Potions could be distributed to heroes, perhaps, as a once-per-battle skill, they would cost gold and mana to manufacture like magic items as to not be overpowered. Some could be boosters affecting your whole army, others would maybe area attacks like a poison cloud, etc.

    #216809

    BB Shockwave
    Member

    I appreciate that Triumph is asking for feedback on aspects of an already stellar game.
    Logistics is a skill common to all classes. What if there was an additional Logistics rank that allowed re-arrangement of units before battle commences? So many times I find a slow moving Infantry sitting at the back of a combat arrangement, and it makes no sense.

    THIS, I strongly support. In fact, let us get the option to arrange the “order” of the units on the adventure map, please. I am tired of my squishy Engineers and Flamers being put into the front row and dying in the first round. If needed, you can make this a “Tactical Combat” researchable skill but I’d be happier if it was a standard game function. Tactical Combat would instead be something like the HOMMIII Tactics skill, though I think the ability to push your units forward before combat would be overpowered – let’s just stick to rearrangements.

    #216810

    vota dc
    Member

    races first and foremost have the ability to learn and adapt, because otherwise they would become victims of natural selection.

    But doing so they should earn or lose something even at their base: both class and race should adapt to each other.
    The noble unicorn wouldn’t allow a stinky goblin trooper to ride him (a hero goblin is another matter), why should follow an army of elves with huge machines that are crushing on purpose all the trees?
    A Dreadnought blacksmith allow armor mass production. Why goblins and draconians just gives that armors to musketeer only while all other units keep to fight with clothes only?

    #216811

    Buczer
    Member

    Firstly, apologies, I misread Buczer’s post and thought he missed the Syrons and hit chance the MOST, not LEAST… so just take what I said and put it in reverse.

    It wasnt my post in the first place 🙂 It was BBB who posted that. I miss SYRONS (and Azracs) but NOT a hit chance.

    #216821

    Ravenholme
    Member

    Well, all these surveys are certainly interesting, I hope we get some news on what they’re leading up to this week.

    #216834

    Joohaan
    Member

    What I see is a difference in opinion between the competitive multiplayer crowd and the people that prefer single player, play less frequent and care more about fantasy Lore and immersion. The latter group is much larger, though less vocal.

    I understand that all the class race combos give us countless options for replayability. But replayability has always been good, look at Age of Wonders Shadow Magic.

    Allowing all these combos and giving classes the importance they have now over the races, comes at a cost. It takes away some of the ‘magic’, the fantasy feeling that was so great in the previous games. This feeling, the immersion, I believe, is tied to the races, not the classes.
    People that play high fantasy games, usually read fantasy books or at least have some idea of what the Elves are and what they stand for. It just takes away some of the fun if I choose elves as starting race, and gradually find out it is not that important.

    Don’t get me wrong, racial governance and some other systems have improved the situation a bit. But immersion, and feel has not yet returned to the levels of AOW-SM for me. AOW3 with a few alterations can however get to those levels and even surpass it.

    Agree with this ^ wholeheartedly. Think that’s the core of the “problem” (and I use that term loosely).

    You have to be a bit more open to different types of immersion, especially when not playing an adventure or RPG. And from a STRATEGY game perspective AoW3 is lightyears aheadof AoW2 SM.

    Agreed, strategy-wise, the game is way ahead of earlier games.

    I mean, come on, you cannot always play the cliché Elves. Explore NEW lore and find NEW immersion – that’s what things are all about, not always regurgitating the same stuff ad nauseam.

    This here I think relates to what ten9 is saying. We already HAVE lore for most of these races. Most from previous games in the series, other games or a general idea of what an orc should be. Stepping away from that frame in the name of perceived variety/replayability, is obviously something people feel very differently about.

    This game has opened up a new dimension by finding a completely new way to synergize two completely different kinds of archetypes, the fantasy-race for one, and the, well, fantasy-profession for another – and abilities are more important than race traits, because you should think that races first and foremost have the ability to learn and adapt, because otherwise they would become victims of natural selection.

    I’m of the opinion that a race adapts within the confines of their strengths, environments and traits. And yes, that might not be enough, which is why some races would go extinct/get absorbed into other societies. Homogenization is a weakness in many cases. Introducing outside threats can kill entire populations if there’s no diversity and no inbuilt resistance to said threat.

    That the game has the right “order” is proven by the fact that you could effortlessly introduce another half a dozen races – but try to find more different, meaningful classes. There may be one involving “demons” and summoning them via population sacrifices and incarnating stuff, but over and above that?

    For me, this is just proof of how little race matters in the game, more than anything else. I honestly can’t see how current classes equal variety… feel like it’s the opposite.

    Just spitballin’ here obviously, but how about this? You pick a race… Maybe this one race has specialized in summoning stuff. Or they’re a magical race, whatever. Maybe they could choose either playing as a warlock or a sorcerer, altering all your units, some of the gameplay of that race and whatnot, to fit that class? A different race might be awesome in melee… strong, hardy… the player could then decide on being a warlord or a berserker. Pick elves, then pick whether to be a ranger or a druid.

    Or, something along these lines.. you pick a race, say goblins… you then pick your class, the theocrat. I think the goblins are into paganism, so that wouldn’t give me crusaders or evangelists. Instead I’d get fanatics, heathens, pagans or cultists. No Shrine of Smiting, instead you’d have a living effigy of your “god”. Would take alot of thinkin’ and balancing, but would make alot more sense. Well… I dunno :P… Gah… I’m spent.

    #216837

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    What you tentaively suggest, has certainly enough merits to think about it, but it would PROBABLY just mean having more different looking units with different names and abilities, bcause at the end of the day a Goblin Fanatic would be the Human Crusader. So this would amount to a lot more work for basically no real gain.

    #216838

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Just goes to show that people actually have no idea. Classes over Races is what actually made the game great in the first place; gradually and individually increasing the differences between races without losing the basic order of class over race has made it even greater.

    Going now to race over class would just be folly.

    This depends on how you construe the question, really.

    You seem to be reading it as “take stuff away from the classes to give to races”.

    I interpret it more as a case of “we only have finite resources with which to add more, so where should we focus: race or class?” I don’t think there’s any plan to take anything away from the classes, but they’ve presented it as a choice of one or the other to get an idea of where there’s a greater perception for need for further development.

    In my mind, variation between classes is about an A-. It’s not perfect, but it’s in a pretty good spot. Variation between races, however, is possibly around a B, up from a C+ or so on release. It’s not bad, but there’s quite a bit more room for improvement – certainly, given the choice, I think that from where we are now, there’s more to be gained by increasing racial distinction than increasing class distinction.

    The noble unicorn wouldn’t allow a stinky goblin trooper to ride him (a hero goblin is another matter), why should follow an army of elves with huge machines that are crushing on purpose all the trees?

    Strictly speaking, you wouldn’t want to destroy the trees around an elven city if you could avoid it anyway, due to losing happiness.

    More generally: Does it necessarily follow that technological development MUST lead to less regard for the environment? It allows for more potential to do damage, sure, but the society can still choose what their priorities are. Elven dreadnought is an unusual combination, but I can see magic-powered war machines, with the metals sourced in an environmentally responsible fashion, being no less environmentally responsible than a sorcerer tinkering with the barriers between planes. Or, to reference a comparison made earlier… who says a society with blacksmiths capable of producing knightly armour and barding couldn’t have enough regard for the environment to be led by an arch-druid and use their arms and armour to defend the environment? The question isn’t what you do, it’s whether you do it sustainably.

    (In fact, the original Merlin in Arthurian mythology is often portrayed as one of the last of the British druids.)

    #216841

    NEHZ
    Member

    What I see is a difference in opinion between the competitive multiplayer crowd and the people that prefer single player, play less frequent and care more about fantasy Lore and immersion. The latter group is much larger, though less vocal.

    Wrong. I see this mistake often, but the community really isn’t cleanly divided in two groups.
    I mostly play single player, but I also enjoy pbem. I don’t play direct online multiplayer. So in which group would you put me?
    You make assumptions over a large group without any real basis.

    As for immersion, to me, it’s very important. To me, races fitting a stereotype and acting as a single person multiplied rather than a society is incredibly immersion breaking. I see the race-class combo and the decision on going good/neutral/evil as the races splitting up and following different ideologies. This allows for storytelling that is beyond anything that AoW:SM has to offer.

    To me, the classes add to the races. I’m not just an elf, I’m a high elf warlord that has decided to burn away all human cities from Athla. I’m a draconian rogue carving out an empire by promising prosperity for all (though a bit more for draconian people and a lot more for me personally). I’m a mad dwarf sorcerer conquering land in the quest for power. I’m a goblin trying to spare his people from the curse of blight immune machines.

    In terms of gameplay, the choice in race matters more than I remember it being in AoW:SM. In that game, it was more of a choice between spheres and monster units, the normal racial units mattered far less. Since AoW3 is more balanced, I notice the differences a lot more.

    #216842

    ExNihil
    Member

    Just spitballin’ here obviously, but how about this? You pick a race… Maybe this one race has specialized in summoning stuff. Or they’re a magical race, whatever. Maybe they could choose either playing as a warlock or a sorcerer, altering all your units, some of the gameplay of that race and whatnot, to fit that class? A different race might be awesome in melee… strong, hardy… the player could then decide on being a warlord or a berserker. Pick elves, then pick whether to be a ranger or a druid.

    Or, something along these lines.. you pick a race, say goblins… you then pick your class, the theocrat. I think the goblins are into paganism, so that wouldn’t give me crusaders or evangelists. Instead I’d get fanatics, heathens, pagans or cultists. No Shrine of Smiting, instead you’d have a living effigy of your “god”. Would take alot of thinkin’ and balancing, but would make alot more sense. Well… I dunno :P… Gah… I’m spent.

    This is great but it could never work, this would require pretty much remaking the entire game. Any other alternative will be purely cosmetic, and I would much rather see effort directed into new content and the further development of existing mechanics. The game is what it is, it might not satisfy every fantastic wish of players but it does manage to pull off an excellent strategy game both SP and MP. I am certain that the expectedodding tools would allow for changes along these lines.

    #216844

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I actually disagree with what is called class and race.

    There is RACE part that is equal for all classes: the town buildings that are the same and also the units that are the same. 7 units are always the same, no matter the class, admittedly a tad less as in AoW 2.
    But that is pure RACE.
    Then there is pure CLASS. These are summoned units. Horned God. Wisp. Or machines. Cannons (although there are few but notable exceptions here, like Frosttank and Party Robot).
    Then there is MIXED race/class: units that are for one class only, but can be of each race. Say, a Succubus. Or a Reanimator.

    Class delivers the tech, which means, if I play Warlord, my Elves will learn Martial Arts and become aggressive in melee, while if I’m a Dread I will equip my Cavs with pistols.

    Would more purely racial units gain? I don’t believe so.

    Would individual racial CLASS units gain? Now, that might work. ONE unit for each race and CLASS extra (which could BOTH be an extra TECH AND Building or an extra tech or an extra building). This would actually deliver 63 new units.
    A start has been made with for example Yeti. This might be the Frostling unit for Arch Druid OR Sorcerer…

    Be that as it may, I think what most people ACTUALLY want is more race-specific class stuff, not more race stuff, if you know what I mean. You know, now you consider, ok, Elven Warlord has its plusses because I get a Longbow Mounted Archer as a Class unit. THEN you would consider, ok, Frostling Arch Druid is giving me the Yeti as special Frostling/Arch Druid synergy unit, while Goblin is giving me the TRoll. Hmmmmm.

    Or Tech. Same thing. adding a few race techs might simply increase the amount of things to consider when playing, add strengthes and so on.

    So, again, I don’t think it’s race over class what people want, it’s actually more UNIQUE HYBRID stuff.

    #216845

    Joohaan
    Member

    What you tentaively suggest, has certainly enough merits to think about it, but it would PROBABLY just mean having more different looking units with different names and abilities, bcause at the end of the day a Goblin Fanatic would be the Human Crusader. So this would amount to a lot more work for basically no real gain.

    Aye, that’s a big challenge… making the work cost/time efficient and still more than a reskin/remodel. But, for myself atleast, just differentiating the classes between the races like that would go a long way.

    This is great but it could never work, this would require pretty much remaking the entire game. Any other alternative will be purely cosmetic, and I would much rather see effort directed into new content and the further development of existing mechanics. The game is what it is, it might not satisfy every fantastic wish of players but it does manage to pull off an excellent strategy game both SP and MP. I am certain that the expectedodding tools would allow for changes along these lines.

    Yepp, very true, all of it. Not really expecting the game to get any radical changes at this stage. Frankly, I’m really just hoping they take all of our suggestions and thoughts into consideration when they make the next title (not if, when ^^ ). I’m more and more hopeful these surveys are made in preparation for that. Which wouldn’t be a bad thing. And I’m still thouroughly enjoying the game as it stands today. But there’s always hope! (The first step on the road to disappointment, eh? 😉 )

    #216846

    ExNihil
    Member

    In that case I join you in hoping the next title uses races and classes along the lines you suggested.

    #216850

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Let me rephrase that as a question again. Isn’t what people actually want a stronger MERGING of the two poles Race and Class?
    Would it be right to say that there are enough Black Knights and Wisps, what is missing are more Succubae and Manticore Riders.
    Because with Black Knight Class is irrelevants, with Wisps Race is irrelevant – but with Succubae it gets unique, as only the Rogue can get it and each racehas their own.

    And the consequence: what about a unique race/class hybrid unit that a player gets ONLY when playing EXACTLY that race/class combo? Or tech? Or spell? Or Building? Or Mystical Building Bonus? Or…

    Is THAT what we would agree upon?

    #216852

    SikBok
    Keymaster

    I interpret it more as a case of “we only have finite resources with which to add more, so where should we focus: race or class?” I don’t think there’s any plan to take anything away from the classes, but they’ve presented it as a choice of one or the other to get an idea of where there’s a greater perception for need for further development.

    Posting to confirm that this is the way we intended it. In a perfect world we’d just add more, but in the real world we have to make choices.

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