Races Survey and Terraria Wonders

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This topic contains 196 replies, has 68 voices, and was last updated by  BB Shockwave 6 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #217133

    ten9
    Member

    Agree with 90% of what BBShockwave said. NO racial T4 please, god forbid. Reasons are

    (1) This would work further towards strengthening races vis-à-vis classes. As per now, race does influence class, at times hugely, while class impact on races is more indirect at best. IMHO there is no need to emphasize the role of race in the game, and hence it would be a nightmare to properly balance, as others have said.

    (2) The diversity argument does not hold. There are enough opportunities to gain non-class T4 as it is (summons and dwellings, anyone?), leaving the potential variety at T4-level with little to be desired.

    As for T3, while I concede that a single unit for every race may not seem much, there are still classes, summons, dwellings…if anything, there could be more unit type variety at this tier with fewer infantry/cavalry, but more support and especially irregular ones. The Tigran Sphinx was a step in the right direction. Maybe, just maybe, there could be some kind of T4 irregular. Sometime, somewhere.

    EDIT: While not a multiplayer I second the issue of the current strategic imbalance of races with a flying T3 vs those without one. Especially those pesky elves, being advantaged pretty much everywhere else already, do not need another positive distinction.

    Balance, balance balance…sigh. Screw balance. The majority wants to have fun and go for the wow factor.

    About your (1): That is exactly the point. It is what a lot of people want. Just look at the results of the survey. People want the races to gain importance over the classes, even if that would cause more asymmetry.

    #217136

    Lord of Riva
    Member

    sorry to pop you ballon but the survey is 50/50 on race vs. class.

    the last bit differntiaqtes the races in comparison to each other and does not concern itself with classes.

    also the point is “even if it is not as easy to balance” that doesnt mean that balance isnt a focus?

    im pretty sure your majority is a rather small minority, balancing is important, for enjoyment regardless of you being in for SP, MP or the wow factor (whatever that is)

    #217176

    ten9
    Member

    The last question of the survey clearly makes the reader aware that it might not be possible to balance the more asymmetrical races to the point they are balanced now.

    Clearly this can only be read as asymmetry over balance for a large majority.

    In future games from Triumph I prefer to have more unique – even asymmetrical – races over having a more easily balanced game.
    Answer Votes Percentage

    Strongly Disagree 12 3.75%
    Disagree 29 9.06%
    No Opinion 15 4.69%
    Agree 114 35.63%
    Strongly Agree 149 46.56%
    1 0.31%

    #217177

    ten9
    Member

    Then races over classes. Well, the majority for this is less large but it’s significant nonetheless:

    In future games from Triumph I would like to have more gameplay variation between races, at the cost of gameplay variation between classes.

    Answer Votes Percentage
    Strongly Disagree 28 8.75%
    Disagree 88 27.5%
    No Opinion 62 19.38%
    Agree 97 30.31%
    Strongly Agree 44 13.75%

    #217198

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    It is no majority.
    The reasoning for 2 is, you will have a significant part of people who will not be satisfied, so the solution is to HAVE more gameplay variations between races, but NOT at the cost of variation between classes.

    #217208

    Lord of Riva
    Member

    Jolly Joker is correct. im also not sure where you read a mjaority in the last vote?

    74 in favor for races having a bigger impact and 116 against it?

    you cant just add the “no opinion dudes to your argument 😛

    best example so you might see what i we?) mean, Starcraft (2) has very assymetrical Factions, not sure if you are familiar?

    The Zerg, The Protoss and the Terrans area all very different, hoewever Blizzard tries to find the balance to make it competetively valid. Pretty impossible to achieve but they are on a pretty solid way. Same for games as League of Legends or DotA2.

    You are right that AoW 3 is not as “professionally” competetive but even then it needs balance.

    i believe there is a misunderstanding in what balance means, ive never heard arguing someone against balance, seriously. Balance CAN be assymetrical, AoW tried to make the races similar in this game though its easier this way.

    #217209

    SikBok
    Keymaster

    also the point is “even if it is not as easy to balance” that doesnt mean that balance isn’t a focus?

    Popping in to clarify this point.

    We’ll always aim for a balanced game.

    However, as people following the balance topic might have noted, there are different ways to balance games. To make a gross simplification, you can balance the minutia or just ensure everyone has a somewhat fair change to take down another player. E.g. you can end up with chess – which is pure skill – or with hearthstone – in which luck, playing the meta, hard deck counters, etc play a factor.

    The more asymmetrical the game becomes, the less like chess and the more like hearthstone the game becomes.

    #217218

    Joohaan
    Member

    Are you sure you’re reading that right Belgarion? Errm.. .Lord of Riva…

    #217221

    BB Shockwave
    Member

    Agree with 90% of what BBShockwave said. NO racial T4 please, god forbid. Reasons are

    (1) This would work further towards strengthening races vis-à-vis classes. As per now, race does influence class, at times hugely, while class impact on races is more indirect at best. IMHO there is no need to emphasize the role of race in the game, and hence it would be a nightmare to properly balance, as others have said.

    (2) The diversity argument does not hold. There are enough opportunities to gain non-class T4 as it is (summons and dwellings, anyone?), leaving the potential variety at T4-level with little to be desired.

    As for T3, while I concede that a single unit for every race may not seem much, there are still classes, summons, dwellings…if anything, there could be more unit type variety at this tier with fewer infantry/cavalry, but more support and especially irregular ones. The Tigran Sphinx was a step in the right direction. Maybe, just maybe, there could be some kind of T4 irregular. Sometime, somewhere.

    EDIT: While not a multiplayer I second the issue of the current strategic imbalance of races with a flying T3 vs those without one. Especially those pesky elves, being advantaged pretty much everywhere else already, do not need another positive distinction.

    Balance, balance balance…sigh. Screw balance. The majority wants to have fun and go for the wow factor.

    About your (1): That is exactly the point. It is what a lot of people want. Just look at the results of the survey. People want the races to gain importance over the classes, even if that would cause more asymmetry.

    You say that now, but you’ll be here crying about balance when the game becomes unenjoyable when the AI assaults you with wave after wave of powerful units and you have measely weak ones compared to his.

    If you were such an avid AoWIISM player, sure you remember how pitifully unplayable Goblins and Halflings were – the latter because concealment and invisibility, which was the strenght of a lot of their units, did NOT work properly. I ended up playing most Halfling missions by only using their Slingers and Eagle Riders and instead building droves of Knights and Cavalry in my Human towns. Same for Goblins.
    Now in AoW3, because of proper balance the developers worked hard to achieve, you can easily trounce Orc or Human armies with Halflings or Goblins, and you don’t necessarily have to outnumber them, due to their Blight damage and Weakening powers (Goblins) and Luck factor (Halflings).

    So yes, I’m all for racial immersion and whatnot but only as long as it doesn’t kill gameplay and makes it no fun anymore.

    #217227

    ten9
    Member

    Jolly Joker is correct. im also not sure where you read a mjaority in the last vote?

    74 in favor for races having a bigger impact and 116 against it?

    you cant just add the “no opinion dudes to your argument 😛

    Look again Lord Riva:

    Answer Votes Percentage
    Strongly Disagree 28
    Disagree 88
    No Opinion 62
    Agree 97
    Strongly Agree 44

    #217228

    BB Shockwave
    Member

    I suppose you’d be right that in some way immersion would mean what I’d be willing to accept or not. And I find it hard to accept some race+class combos, as they currently are. It’s not logical to see elven dreadnoughts. It’s not logical to see goblin theocrats. It’s not logical to see halfling phalanxes. It’s not logical to see the goblin, human and tigran crusader looking/being more or less the same.

    Things like that, doesn’t make sense to me…

    To take that apart…

    -Elven Dreadnaughts: Why not? Let’s say some elves gave in to technology. Maybe not willingly, maybe they were enslaved by the Commonwealth. Ever played Dragon Age? Elves live in slums there as second class citizens, forcibly relocated from their forest homes. After many generations, this is all the life some elves know. Maybe they’d even use technology when they rise up against the humans.
    -Goblin Theocrats: Have you even played the campaigns? Have you talked to Nomlis Trismegistos? His story of uplifting the slum-dwelling, forcibly civilized goblins in cities by bringing them faith was a great story. And yes, it can work – just see how in our real world, various religions have swept through the world, converting people to their cause regardless of race, color of skin, class or gender.
    -Halfling Warlords: No more far-fetched than the Halfling Swordsmen and cavalry we already had in the previous 2 games. And especially in a world like this, where your kingdom can easily get caught between a war of two superpowers, the Commonwealth and the Elven Lords, even Halflings have to be ready to defend their homes. Again, play the campaign – it makes just as much sense as the various Frostling leaders in the Frostling Campaign.
    -Crusaders: same here. Look around in the US Army for Pete’s sake, you’ll see soldiers of all races, classes and genders in the same uniform, marching for the same goals. Why is that hard to believe in a fantasy where there is a faith that accepts each race as equals?

    #217230

    Lord of Riva
    Member

    @ten9 : whoops you are correct O,o

    seems like i read that wrong (probably took the 30 from the percentage instead of the vote count. my bad

    @joohaan not sure who that dude is, pleae dont assume im a double acc just because i derped here a little 😛

    then i concede that this is the majority, even if its a minor difference still

    I\’d like race to have a bigger impact on play style than class.

    Strongly Disagree 36 8.8%
    Disagree 133 32.52%
    No Opinion 85 20.78%
    Agree 99 24.21%
    Strongly Agree 56 13.69%

    here on the orther hand its 37% to 40% in favor for more pronounced classes vs more diverse races.

    im kinda questioning if the questions asked are designed (through the wording/ choice) in a way to get a fixed outcome.

    again, sorry for messing that up

    the point of the balance still is correct though, but i cannot argue the majority here.

    also again @johaan :

    dont take away my goblin theocrat its the best looking and overall best race combo there is XD

    loving my goblin crusaders especially

    #217238

    Joohaan
    Member

    Hehe, not at all. I was just referring to your name… thought it was a reference to the David Eddings-series ^^

    #217239

    BB Shockwave
    Member

    Agree with 90% of what BBShockwave said. NO racial T4 please, god forbid. Reasons are

    (1) This would work further towards strengthening races vis-à-vis classes. As per now, race does influence class, at times hugely, while class impact on races is more indirect at best. IMHO there is no need to emphasize the role of race in the game, and hence it would be a nightmare to properly balance, as others have said.

    (2) The diversity argument does not hold. There are enough opportunities to gain non-class T4 as it is (summons and dwellings, anyone?), leaving the potential variety at T4-level with little to be desired.

    As for T3, while I concede that a single unit for every race may not seem much, there are still classes, summons, dwellings…if anything, there could be more unit type variety at this tier with fewer infantry/cavalry, but more support and especially irregular ones. The Tigran Sphinx was a step in the right direction. Maybe, just maybe, there could be some kind of T4 irregular. Sometime, somewhere.

    EDIT: While not a multiplayer I second the issue of the current strategic imbalance of races with a flying T3 vs those without one. Especially those pesky elves, being advantaged pretty much everywhere else already, do not need another positive distinction.

    Thanks! And yes, as you said… you can gain non-class T4s via various means already. Heck, usually you gain them sooner via quests and dwellings than the class-Tier IVs since those are at the end of the research curve.

    I think the flyers, while powerful, are not that much of an advantage. Certainly the Orc Shock troopers with Tireless and Polearm can match a Gyrphon Rider. I think though, that the Draconian Flyer should get some special ability or two, as he is rather unremarkable, him and the Human Knight are the Tier IIIs who are mostly just purely physical “muscle”.

    #217245

    Lord of Riva
    Member

    Hehe, not at all. I was just referring to your name… thought it was a reference to the David Eddings-series ^^

    nope sory, realms of arcania maybe? (Das schwarze Auge) there was a game about riva there, but sorry for derailing, will stop now 😛

    #217247

    ten9
    Member

    Balance, balance balance…sigh. Screw balance. The majority wants to have fun and go for the wow factor.

    About your (1): That is exactly the point. It is what a lot of people want. Just look at the results of the survey. People want the races to gain importance over the classes, even if that would cause more asymmetry.

    You say that now, but you’ll be here crying about balance when the game becomes unenjoyable when the AI assaults you with wave after wave of powerful units and you have measely weak ones compared to his.

    If you were such an avid AoWIISM player, sure you remember how pitifully unplayable Goblins and Halflings were – the latter because concealment and invisibility, which was the strenght of a lot of their units, did NOT work properly. I ended up playing most Halfling missions by only using their Slingers and Eagle Riders and instead building droves of Knights and Cavalry in my Human towns. Same for Goblins.
    Now in AoW3, because of proper balance the developers worked hard to achieve, you can easily trounce Orc or Human armies with Halflings or Goblins, and you don’t necessarily have to outnumber them, due to their Blight damage and Weakening powers (Goblins) and Luck factor (Halflings).

    So yes, I’m all for racial immersion and whatnot but only as long as it doesn’t kill gameplay and makes it no fun anymore.

    Funny you say this. Halflings is the race I played the most in aow2-sm!
    Not because they were the ‘best’ race, but because I found them cool to play. I loved trying these puny halflings to fight evil. I couldn’t care less if they were the worst race balance-wise.

    #217249

    Joohaan
    Member

    Wall of text here… making a habit of this… apologize for that 😉

    -Elven Dreadnaughts: Why not? Let’s say some elves gave in to technology. Maybe not willingly, maybe they were enslaved by the Commonwealth. Ever played Dragon Age? Elves live in slums there as second class citizens, forcibly relocated from their forest homes. After many generations, this is all the life some elves know. Maybe they’d even use technology when they rise up against the humans.
    -Goblin Theocrats: Have you even played the campaigns? Have you talked to Nomlis Trismegistos? His story of uplifting the slum-dwelling, forcibly civilized goblins in cities by bringing them faith was a great story. And yes, it can work – just see how in our real world, various religions have swept through the world, converting people to their cause regardless of race, color of skin, class or gender.
    -Halfling Warlords: No more far-fetched than the Halfling Swordsmen and cavalry we already had in the previous 2 games. And especially in a world like this, where your kingdom can easily get caught between a war of two superpowers, the Commonwealth and the Elven Lords, even Halflings have to be ready to defend their homes. Again, play the campaign – it makes just as much sense as the various Frostling leaders in the Frostling Campaign.
    -Crusaders: same here. Look around in the US Army for Pete’s sake, you’ll see soldiers of all races, classes and genders in the same uniform, marching for the same goals. Why is that hard to believe in a fantasy where there is a faith that accepts each race as equals?

    Loved Dragon Age…dunno hooooow many hundreds of hours I’ve played that and the dlc:s. Hated, nay, loathed the second, third was very meh. Thing is, in Dragon Age, taking the dalish vs. city elves, there’s lore/quests and conversations describing the situation and history. It doesn’t force me as a player to think up explanations… well… mostly atleast.

    Anyways…
    On elven dreadnoughts: That’s alot of back story I’d have to invent to be able to justify that. First, elves would have to be enslaved, then they go against their masters, steal their technology without altering it one bit to suit their environment and or traits.

    They then use this technology, which basically goes against their old belief system. But they still have units with longbows, unicorns and gryphons. Even if they’re evil, they have unicorn riders. Which goes against how unicorns have worked the entire time. So not only have these city elves (basically, a type of second class-humans… not talking dalish elves here obviously) stepped away from what made them elves in the first place, they also managed to get a species of magical horses to do the same.

    Their race description claim they dwell in the forests and have a strong connection to nature and life. Things kinda opposite how atleast I see the current dreadnought. There’s no elven finesse to that. Big, clonky cannon. Now, if I’d see elves that had adopted technology but still made it their own, I’d have an easier time believing that. Maybe they perfected mana-powered machinery. Environmentally friendly. They’d be of a completely different design obviously, sleeker, more magical… but unit-wise, they’d be more or less the same. Perhaps their famous archers would all use mana-powered magical rifles. Maybe they’d make use of bionics or something like that… I dunno.

    Then I see an elven necromancer or theocrat and I’d have to make up a believable story for why those elves are so far from the my elves, or from elves in basically all other kinds of fantasy.

    I have played the all three (four is it?) campaigns, a couple of them twice. Still don’t buy how the goblins were portrayed. Okay, so we have a cult/religion/sect. Would any goblins really want to follow one, big religion? Maybe they would. But do goblins even have access to the same kind of armor/materials as the human theocrat? I mean, they gotta, since their units look the same. Okay, so they have the stuff to make the same outfit. Would they? Goblin strengths have been sneakiness and poison… when it’s time for punchin’ things, they’ve used other tools. So wouldn’t they try and use those traits instead of trying to purge the heretics with holy fire? Gimme goblin fanatics instead of crusaders.

    So what’s their religion then? What’s the religion which apparently allows for all other religions, but still trains crusaders to punish those who aren’t following that religion? There’s no mention of it really, or if there is I have missed it. But if we have tigran crusaders and Yaka-worshippers in the same town, that would mean trouble, wouldn’t it?

    Okay, so the halfling warlord… I’d agree that it might not be more far-fetched than swordsmen or pony riders. As a not-so physical race I would assume the halfling equivalent to phalanxes to make use of some different kind of armor, or tactic. Not looking like smaller looking orcish phalanxes and fighting just as good. Instead of mounted slingers/archers they’d get centaurs.

    I’m not trying to convert you here… just an explanation why I find some of those examples weird. The main problem with all these points is that sure, maybe I could invent or think of explanations for all these things, but when I have to do it to such an extent, that takes me out of the game. Breaks immersion.

    #217251

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Races can be everything, provided they have the right leadership.

    Anyway, on another note, it wasn’t a democratic election, but a survey. If a point is contested, it makes no sense do point to one side. Instead you will have to aim for a compromise to avoid antagonizing a large part of the players.

    #217253

    Lord of Riva
    Member

    i think one of the biggest issues is what “immersion” is for people its an amazingly vague and subjective idea.

    i welcomed these changes so much because i do not feel forced to choose a race/class based around some fluff reasons i do not care much about. i always felt that all the races are capable of using reason just like humans, so why cant we have different societies in the same race? i mean its the same for us in RL.

    this “immersion” kinda stems from the classical views on fantasy lore and i personally like that we stop using the old and often used cliches we have.

    i welcome the new.

    #217271

    BB Shockwave
    Member

    Johaan – Agree with you on that. I quit DAII after playing the demo, and given what I heard later, did not regret it. Might try DA3, but I am rather going to replay DA:O first.

    Well, I can totally see a ragtag band of Elves in rugged steampunk armor riding unicorns and shooting people with sidearms. 😀 I mean… like Mad Max, fantasy style.

    And heck, Goblins and Kobolds in most RPGs are the downtrodden, oppressed race, whom other consider vermin. Of course they’d flock to a religion that says they are equally important! When I first saw Goblin Exalted (way before the game was released) I thought it was ridiculous, but… it now makes sense, really. Heck, in all previous games we had Goblin Martyrs too – they just had a big bomb strapped to their backs. 😀

    Btw, that and your Centaur comment reminds me… I’d be totally up for the re-introduction of certain old units, but only Tier I-II as to not to make them too powerful, as they were in AOW2-SM. There you had to build certain structures to get them, here it could work like the Tame Trolls of the Racial Governance for Goblins. But maybe, make it automatic – like, when you reach Champion with a race, you can build the structure needed for these units in any town.

    Halfings: Centaurs (Tier II archer/cavalry mix, maybe irregulars?)
    High Elves: …. pass, I really don’t have any ideas, as the Druid and Ranger and the Iron Maiden are more or less covered by racial and class units.
    Dwarves: Gargoyles (flying elementals, good defense, resists all and mind immunity but slow)
    Humans: Swashbuckler (Tier II, has wall climbing, Taunt, swimming and some weaker ranged attack, not the pistol though)
    Draconians: Slither (concealment and wall climbing, has poison split and blight resistance as well as fire, but would look more humanoid like the new Draconians)
    Tigrans: …. no ideas, Watcher would too powerful – maybe Fire Cats as a support unit? Not sure.
    Frostlings: Tame Yeti (same as with Tame Trolls), granted this’d make Arctica’s embassy useless.
    Goblins: Tame Trolls (already present)
    Orcs: Doom Bats (life drain and physical protection but low HP)

    #217286

    vota dc
    Member

    Racial governance that gives new units could check the class and gives different options according to the class.

    #217289

    Lord of Riva
    Member

    Racial governance that gives new units could check the class and gives different options according to the class.

    while that would be definitely cool its would a) be a lot of work for the visuals
    b) would be detrimital to the classes identity. it would shift what it means to play a class.

    not opposed to it though

    #217301

    ashbery76
    Member

    In future games from Triumph I prefer to have more unique – even asymmetrical – races over having a more easily balanced game.

    The poll IMO shows the majority who only play single player and want to have fun.These guys pay your wages so listen.
    🙂

    #217315

    nspannaus
    Member

    The more asymmetrical the game becomes, the less like chess and the more like hearthstone the game becomes.

    Good explanation. Clear and concise.

    Personally, when I play a game like Final Fantasy Tactics or Disgaea, I enjoy approaching it as a strategic chess-like experience. On the other hand, when I play something like Master of Magic, I really do enjoy the asymmetry which results in something akin to Hearthstone mechanics.

    #217333

    Draxynnic
    Member

    That’s just one potential example of how elven dreadnoughts could happen, though. Back when this debate first came up, I made a thread coming up with various ways some of these ‘off-type’ combinations could happen. One I’m particularly proud of was a group of elves who responded to a drying climate by setting up a system of pumps from a river to save their beloved forests through an irrigation system… and developed from there to war machines to protect the pumping stations from raiders. There, the technology is not going against their forest-loving inclinations, but is actually necessary to preserve them.

    Sure, we’re not provided with a backstory… but lorewise, elven dreadnoughts are an unusual combination. It’s up to the player to decide why a given leader is the class they are, if this matters to them. Sometimes this is easy (elves like nature, so archdruid is an easy fit), sometimes it’s not.

    Regarding theocrat: Theocrats have faith-based magic, but it seems to be one where it doesn’t matter where the faith came from. Some theocrats worship the Allfather, some worship the Wizard Kings, either singularly or as a group. Voraditius (spoiler!) turned out to be a Shadowborn, thus worshipping the Wizard Kings, but the majority of his devout troops probably believed Leonus was the god. It’s possible that a theocrat could worship a shiny rock and the magic would still work – it certainly doesn’t appear to make a difference to what the theocrat can do based on what they worship.

    Regarding elven theocrats: I don’t think this is actually off-type at all. Elves usually do have something they believe in – going back to the original source, the Norse ljosalfar were beings of light that were closely associated with the Norse gods, and a lot of elven magic worked against the forces of darkness in Tolkein were essentially invoking the Valar, directly or through the name of an elf who had a close relationship with the Valar (essentially, a saint-figure).

    In Age of Wonders terms, wood elves have always been closely associated with life magic. What was life magic in AoW2 has now been largely spread across Theocrat, Archdruid, Creation, and the Keeper of the Peace specialisation, but it’s probably strongest in the Theocrat. Thus, it’s likely that some High Elves would have retained this affinity after the Mending.

    On the opposite side of the equation, dark elves, also absorbed into the High Elves after the Mending, have historically had a close association with death magic. Mind you, most of those historical death magic users did baulk at turning their own Dark Elf populations into undead. With that said, though, I do have a tendency to think of elf ‘ghouls’ as being Dark Elves that have suffered ‘death of spirit’ – in my mind, this can explain why they have many of the same qualities as undead, but because they’re not all the way undead, it explains why elf ghouls don’t have complete blight immunity.

    #217515

    vairst
    Member

    It does seem that a reasonable direction would be to offer premade and custom races like is done with the heroes. This may be more easily implemented in AoW4, but having the option to pick a base for the race from the existing races, and then swapping out perks and flaws to make a more unique group that the player is fighting for could result in higher attachment. That way, not just customizing your hero, but customizing your entire group over time.

    The ideas are already appearing. The company adds a race to the pool and the player incorporates the traits.

    Now, taking it all a step further… It’s about the race. And it’s about the leader. But races change. And leaders change. So having a perpetual leader, unchanging, is beyond fantasy. There is a leader for each city and there is a leader of all the cities. Dead, old, and failed leaders get replaced. The traits of the race change over time based on the leaders, the environment, and the influences over the people. Magic and technology, good and evil, is still about evolution and adaptation. Customization happens on a wheel. First it is about choosing those traits. In time, however, those traits may become a hindrance. As such, part of the strategy becomes not just about what we are today but we need become tomorrow.

    Shorter races may become taller to gain mobility, but become easier to hit. Maybe a race becomes a little better at their chosen attack type or much better when tacking on weaknesses for multipliers. And maybe some perks on the race-wheel of leveling become permanent, allowing for a bonus on each turn of the wheel at the cost of never being removable. Some things to consider.

    #217575

    Great work devs!

    I would like to see “AoW3: Rift Wars” or something similar as an enhanced edition of the game.

    Rift Wars campaign synopsis:

    A powerful wizard opens a portal through time and space, bringing invaders/refugees from AoW past and future.

    Races:

    Not so forgotten races from games past make a return (e.g. Lizards, etc.).
    Rift Lords/Spawn reintroduced as a newly expanded playable race.
    Other new races could perhaps include Kobolds/Gremlins, Simians, Avians, etc.

    Race Mechanics and Characteristics:

    Kobolds/Gremlins could be characterized as having units that are relatively weak physically however are immune to fear (or maybe reserve for another race), have fate immunity (new mechanic see below), and some have a chance to inflict a fate penalty in combat. Perhaps they could build a special racial structure (Impressment Center, see below) that helps them field extra units, and maybe they could be allowed two additional units per stack as long as the the stack would consist of 8 total Kobolds/Gremlins and one additional unit as long as the party would contain 4 or more of the race.

    Simians could be temperamental arboreal primates who travel faster through vegetation than any other terrain on the strategic map (improved forestry) and can pass through vegetation effortlessly in combat. It should come as no suprise that they love tropical terrain, but they dislike wet terrain and hate open water. Every time they receive damage in combat they have a high chance to gain primal force (boosts melee damage and movement speed) until the end of combat, and every time they receive damage while they already have primal force there is a chance the unit will go berserk for one round. They could be relatively strong in melee and relatively weak in ranged combat.

    Avians/Osirans? could be a race of bird-like humanoids (mythologically I think there was a race or creature like this that was the enemy of the Nagas, which may provide further inspiration). Perhaps all their units have increased vision range. Perhaps all their units have flying or lesser flying. Perhaps I just like the idea of semi-flightless ostrich-mounted lancers doing battle.

    Racial Structure:

    Impressment Center/Thrall Academy

    Is your town overcrowded? Does your city have heavy traffic conjestion? Is new home construction failing to keep up? Are your streets filled with the unsheltered and unemployed? Do your citizens breed like rabbits, goblins, kobolds, or gremlins? Are your people in fact rabbits, goblins, kobolds, or gremlins? Well then your town needs our new Impressment Center! Once built we will solve your population problems by “impressing” upon your citizens the benefits of active military service. We guarantee our work, so if for any reason one of your under privileged residents is not completely satisfied with our pitch, no worries. We’ll just bop ’em on the head when they isn’t lookin’ and take ’em anyway! For your initial cost of the center and as little as ten gold per turn, we will supplement your normal military production capacity by training military units for you in our own separately managed queue. The units are selected at random (possibly weighted in favor of lower tier units) from any racial units currently available for production in the settlement, with the exception of the highest tier to which you
    have access. For example, unlocking production of a tier 2 racial unit in a town would unlock construction of the Impressment Center in that town, which allows impressment of tier 1 racial units. Once production of a tier 3 racial unit is unlocked for that settlement, the center can be upgraded to tier 2 impressment for a one-time fee plus an increase in the per turn cost of the center, which unlocks impressment of tier 2 units and increased production rate for impressed units. One of the best things about our service is that every unit we produce comes with the “impressment/thrall” trait. Sure, this means that the unit will have lower morale, maybe 100 points lower than with traditional recruitment, but it also means they have the same reduced upkeep as volunteers! Think of all the gold you’ll save over time! If you ever want to pump the breaks on your military machine, no problem. You can pause our training queue to stop the Impressment Center from increasing your upkeep costs with new units, and we will continue to draw our regular fee per turn to maintain our infrastructure in anticipation of renewed hostilities with your neighbors. We admit that our center may take several turns to produce a unit that a settlement could train in one or two turns through normal production, but if you feel you deserve numerical superiority through cannon fodder, give us your business.

    Classes and Specializations:

    Alchemist, Stargazer, and Temporal/Kronos/Chronos magic

    Alchemists mingle magic with science to concoct incredible potions to alter the world around them, often violently. The Alchemist class differs from other classes in that many of its researchable skills would give the ability to create various potions. Potions are created using mana and casting points similarly to spells, but the potions must be prepared in advance and become special limited-use inventory items. Potions might initially appear to be over-powered compared to combat spells, since in theory the Alchemist could spend several turns stockpiling potions and then enter battle with a big advantage over non-alchemists who can only use as many spells in battle as their casting points allow per turn. However, various potions could have built-in limitations such as variable potency over time, while powerful potions could require an activation cost in casting points at the time of use (e.g. one potion may gradually lose potency such as damage over several turns until it is ineffective, another might vary over several turns from its creation with its chances of being resisted following a bell curve, and another might be very expensive to create and slowly build in power each turn to its maximum and then quickly drop off in effectiveness if not used, while a healing potion could be much more stable. The leader and heroes would need to use their actions for the combat round to make use of potions just like they do for spell casting, so the Alchemist would not benefit against a non-alchemist due to the stored potential of potions unless either side in a battle reached a point where they were low on casting points. As inventory items, unused potions could be taken as loot at the end of battle and turned against the Alchemist who created them (wouldn’t that be satisfying)! Also, as inventory items created at the location of the caster, the items may often require extra time to be delivered to another unit’s inventory. The cost, potency, and longevity of potions could be adjusted to balance this class against the others. Using potions to best effect will probably require thinking ahead strategically and require a bit more micromanagement creating them in advance and shipping them, so I think many people would call it their favorite class to play and many would call it their least favorite to play (the increased micro would only affect those choosing to play as that class). Given the delays possible in getting potions to the frontlines, this class may be more vulnerable to sudden surprises (although if an enemy suddenly appears near the Alchemist leader, stockpiling potions is probably a sound strategy, but a clever player might also trick the Alchemist into wasting mana…). Perhaps some potions could be created during one round of combat, and then used in another round if they
    had not been created before the battle (maybe one or two potions could be so volatile that they could only be created and used in combat, with increased power to compensate for the two rounds required to use, similar to musket cooldown). Maybe Alchemists have some traditional combat spells they can cast so they don’t rely so heavily on potions or maybe not (they can get these from their specializations). Possible abilities could include a strategic spell turning lead to gold (increases gold income for spell upkeep), combat potion hurled at enemy unit turns it into a newt (still has movement but low stats and no attack abilities) for 2 or 3 rounds after which they can say that they “got better”, healing potions, potions increasing unit speed or strength, nitroglycerin potions
    hurled at enemies. Units could include witch/herbalist similar to previous games, grenadiers who throw bottles of nitroglycerin for area effect explosions, but have a chance to explode when taking certain types of damage (chance is proportional to amount of non-cumulative damage received), bombers who carry black powder explosives into battle to be detonated with self-destruct (also set off by any amount of fire damage), and inner-beasts who carry their own special potion into battle which they consume to release their powerful inner-beasts (Jekyll and Hyde)
    going berserk attacking the nearest friend or foe for 5 rounds. Oh, and perhaps Alchemists can research a tier 7 strategic spell that while active automatically stabilizes all potion values once they reach maximum effectiveness and never time out?

    Stargazers draw power and gain insight from the motion of celestial bodies. They can decipher the portents of the heavens and use them to manipulate the fates of others. The Stargazer class can get advance notice of cosmic happenings through an empire upgrade, a strategic spell that gives them a chance to influence the location where certain impending cosmic happenings take place, and possibly a spell or two invoking their own cosmic happenings. Perhaps at the height of their powers they can call down comets and meteorite showers (crashing sky). Stargazers also rely much on fate. Fate could be a new mechanic tied to lunar phases or a celestial calendar. Every unit at game start or newly spawned unit is randomly assigned a “sign”, and every newly trained unit is assigned a sign based on the current phase or calendar sign. A unit’s fate level (a multiplier) would then cycle between high (positive) and low (negative) values along with the calendar. For most units most of the time this would have no effect, but units with the “superstitious” trait would have their happiness (and possibly other stats) modified by this in combat. Empire happiness could also be affected. The Stargazer class could have spells that invoke superstition, target all units with a particular sign (friend, foe, or both), or change signs. Maybe a “twist of
    fate” could exchange resistance and defense stats between two opposing units. A strategic spell could cause a bad omen to appear in the sky lowering morale for a target city. A guiding star spell could temporarily reveal the location of the closest unrevealed hero or leader on the map. Perhaps the Stargazer’s magical powers wax and wane along with the cycle. Perhaps casting costs, mana costs, and/or the strength or availability of certain spells are affected by the fate modifier set by the Stargazer’s sign. Implementing this would require the current phase or sign to be indicated on the GUI, but could help achieve a goal of “balanced asymmetry”.

    Chronos Spcialists could bent time/space to their wills. Maybe they have a combat spell that allows them to divide and conquer by temporarily removing an enemy unit from combat by sending it 2 or 3 rounds into the future (there is a similar greyguard spell for protecting a friendly unit I think). Maybe a spell allowing you to “reroll” the most recent attack? Perhaps a strategic spell that temporarily enhances movement range and combat spell that grants a unit precognition to avoid damage for a round.

    Strategic Map Structures:

    Potion Shop
    A shop that offers potions for sale from time to time, like the inn offers mercenaries. Maybe these potions are stable, meaning their stats don’t vary or time out (or maybe they do).

    #217583

    Ragnarok777
    Member

    This game is already amazing thanks to classes and race combination. The class system is THE unique feature which makes this game good. I love to have ability of creating races of my own with these combination. If you suppress or lower the class impact, I would better play heroes of might and magic. I hope this game won’t change too much because it would really be a shame for at the point this is my favorite game.

    #217593

    thabob79
    Member

    Idd like more racial influence over class (already good), maybe 1-2 racial research per class or by race only, and unique race/class hero skills.
    Heroes need something because 90% of the time all heroes of the same class will end up with the same skills. À elven rogue will be pretty similar to a dwarf or goblin one. Aow is about difficult choices for me except how to level my heroes. With unique heroes skill, the game stepped in the good direction but, I think something lacking in this area.
    But overall Aow is my first tbs choice, compeditors lost in the dust. Way to go!

    #217649

    Sukesa
    Member

    I think it would be cool to see more differences between races even if there is already some

    But please don’t make some class alike i really like them to be different even in the visuals.

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