Races Survey and Terraria Wonders

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This topic contains 196 replies, has 68 voices, and was last updated by  BB Shockwave 6 years, 4 months ago.

Viewing 17 posts - 181 through 197 (of 197 total)
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  • #218498

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Yeah, I thought going the full D&D stats was overboard myself. Mass combat rules that are licensed D&D stuff usually don’t bother going to that detail. I also rolled my eyes a bit about using OGL stuff in general rather than making up their own: a lot of what you’d actually want to use in OGL is pretty much generic enough in fantasy that all you’re getting is the rules in one particular ruleset anyway, so you’re better off coming up with your own stuff in a ruleset that works for strategy games.

    That said, Klakons and Gnolls are basically working on the basis that they are slaver races – you will barely use their units, instead of others. I mean, that can sort-of work, but the lack of racial units for me, was not appealing.

    Master of Magic races worked on the basis that choosing your race said a lot about your strategy. Some races built up really fast and plateaued early – gnolls and klackons are good examples here – and were good for building a commanding lead early on that you could use to stay dominant through the game. Other races required more investment (a lot more in the case of High Men and Dark Elves) but that investment was well rewarded. This does mean that the “faster” races could be a little boring when you pick them up in the midgame, but I did find they were still useful either for trade goods production or to pump out a lot of high-grade filler.

    Of course, that sort of balance between races probably is not compatible with Age of Wonders allowing migration…

    #218518

    BB Shockwave
    Member

    Yeah, I realize that. To me, AoW (the first) felt like the evolution of MOM, though – and AoW2 even more so – giving each race a fully fledged unit roster, as well as the same to every magic sphere. So, however disrespectful it sounds towards the “ancestor” of the games, I don’t want a devolution – I don’t want AoW to go back to the wildly different, uneven, unbalanced races. For me it’d feel like a step back.
    Adding modding options to units/races, like Shadow Magic did, would help in giving those people who want that this option without completely changing the main game.

    Even if we don’t see one last expansion pack, it really does feel like we’ll be seeing another patch that addresses some of the gameplay/balancing issues we’ve been discussing.

    A patch is in the works and currently available in Open Beta.

    WUT? “Nobody tells me nutin…” 🙁
    Why is this not frontpaged?

    #218531

    BB Shockwave
    Member

    @ BB, I wasn’t clear. I was asking a question more like :

    Must every race have a Pike unit? Why not have a race that doesn’t have a Pike unit, but has 2 Archer units? (for example!)

    It’d be rather unnecessary. Already, lots of races have 2 archers essentially, since their irregulars are good ranged units too (Halflings for example).
    Pikemen are kinda a must-have. Not just against cavalry but in general for defense, especially against flying neutral monsters like wyverns. First strike is simply very useful, as is Polearm. No wonder orc cavalry is so powerful.

    Let me be clear, I’m not proposing that every race gets an alternate hospital, for example.
    I am proposing that 2 races at least rework the hospital chain.
    Goblins get the usual growth bonus, but also a passive spreading of wetlands (hospital level unlock) and unlock the Bomber (early, with the current storehouse)
    Draconians eventually unlock, with the hospital level building, the Hydra, who is slow and lumbering but has regrowth, loads of hp, total awareness.

    I am all for new racial units, but if only 2 races get them… it’ll be unbalanced and also annoying to fans of the other races, frankly. I gave the same stats to the Hydra myself when suggesting it as a Tier III Lizardman unit, actually, but – yeah, with those abilities it has to be Tier III. And imagine how overpowered Draconians get if they have TWO tier 3s.

    I agree what you suggest would be fun, but it’d require Triumph doing the same for all races.
    And I would not take away buildings from races. Hospitals might be useless for Draconians with Fast healing, but how often will you use mixed armies of other races or neutrals? I know I do, and I do need that extra healing for my animal or say, dwarf units. Same goes for Goblins.

    Why not keep the Hospital or Grand Palace and instead add a new “Slot” building that is different per race, like the City Defense Structure is now? It’d be easier to program it like that, that it’s unlocked the same way for every race but does something different. I liked these buildings in Shadow Magic too, like the (sadly useless against the AI) concealment of Elven Cities.

    #218616

    Loki-330
    Member

    One thing that could help with the racial thing perhaps is a bonus system like the the racial governance, but semi-tied to classes. The logic to my idea is you can pick a class based bonus (Summons get +2 damage for sorcerer or druid for example) or you can pick a race orientated bonus instead (using the above, summons get… forest walking and concealment as elves, +2 defence as a dwarves?)

    A few more racial units in general would be good though, imo. Can’t think of any off the top of my head though, go figure…

    #218646

    Fenraellis
    Member

    One thing that could help with the racial thing perhaps is a bonus system like the the racial governance, but semi-tied to classes. The logic to my idea is you can pick a class based bonus (Summons get +2 damage for sorcerer or druid for example) or you can pick a race orientated bonus instead (using the above, summons get… forest walking and concealment as elves, +2 defence as a dwarves?)

    A few more racial units in general would be good though, imo. Can’t think of any off the top of my head though, go figure…

    I once proposed a third line of Racial Governance dedicated to Class. That is. Racial Military/Racial Economy/Class(with touches of Racial where appropriate). This, like other Racial Governance options would be selected on a race by race basis. So, on one Race, you could take the Class tier 2 upgrade that boosts a particular class unit or building, but on another race, you decided you would rather take the racial governance military to boost that unit instead(maybe the racial class unit modified at that tier isn’t as useful for that race compared to the other).

    #218648

    SeeR
    Member

    Thats a great suggestion Fen. I like the way u think.

    #218662

    Fimbul
    Member

    I’m sorry but i don’t have the time to read through all the posts and if my suggestion is already discussed.

    it’s always about the ressources Triumph can spend. i would suggest that you make more assets and models for the races and then use this base for modeling most of the class units too. For me did some class units really not fit into the theme of the races.
    example: why does a mounted archer look like a mongolian rider? i would like that my elven mounted archers look like my regular archers, just on horses. you can give class units wepons or accessory that is over all the same but keep them much closer to the race theme. you could use race models for class models, if the draconians would have a model for a Slither, then this could be used in smaller form for the scout.

    don’t take me wrong, i love AoW3 but i miss the Spider Queens and Blade Dancer and that the races had more different looks and feeling from each other. Now every race starts with irregular, then infantery and archer, then pikeman, mounted and support. of course in AoWSM are many basic untits pretty the same too, but it wasn’t always that way and not always in the same order. and of course classes add that kind of differentiation, but before Eternal Lords it didn’t matter much with what races you played, they where anyway nearly the same.

    #218691

    Draxynnic
    Member

    I once proposed a third line of Racial Governance dedicated to Class. That is. Racial Military/Racial Economy/Class(with touches of Racial where appropriate). This, like other Racial Governance options would be selected on a race by race basis. So, on one Race, you could take the Class tier 2 upgrade that boosts a particular class unit or building, but on another race, you decided you would rather take the racial governance military to boost that unit instead(maybe the racial class unit modified at that tier isn’t as useful for that race compared to the other).

    Hrrrmn. I could see that being easily abusable if every race had the same ‘class’ setting, and a lot of work if each race had a different ‘class’ setting.

    #218699

    BB Shockwave
    Member

    It could work, and is a good idea. I just wonder if that’d make some races even more tied to classes than they are. Like, Elven Rangers are now an even more tempting reason for using an Elven Archdruid since Racial Governance. Imagine if Archdruids got some elf racial skills that makes them even more useful. Would mean that people would pretty much only use one race with one class.

    And to be frank, something that should be taken into consideration – your starting race might be important for a while, but in this game, nothing stops you from gaining the towns of other races and adding their units to your army, as long as you are on good terms with them. This was always a strenght of AoW, and you often HAD to use this in older games when your starting race was squishy or not adequate to fight the units of the enemy. Like how in the Water Campaign of Wizard’s Throne I often only had a few Halfling towns and instead focused on using Humans, or in the Air campaign I managed to stay on friendly terms with both dwarves and dark elves and use them in my armies (naturally separately).

    I do miss the “army morale” actually, but I understand that races are now not tied to alignments, and adding it back would be a limiting factor against mixed armies. Still, maybe it could be done and there could be general skills to research that raises the morale of mixed armies. I still think it’s a bit weird to see High Elves and Goblins or Orcs fighting side-by-side together. 🙂

    #218877

    nspannaus
    Member

    Even if we don’t see one last expansion pack, it really does feel like we’ll be seeing another patch that addresses some of the gameplay/balancing issues we’ve been discussing.

    A patch is in the works and currently available in Open Beta.

    Very cool! Thanks for letting us know here.

    #219391

    Kaiosama TLJ
    Member

    About racial buildings – I believe the devs told us before that changing this is hard – it’s one of those pre-coded things, like why even flying infantry has “wall climbing” simply because the Infantry class automatically gives them this ability.
    But I’d say every race needs a Grand Palace, no matter what you play as you’ll need casting points. Those are like the Casting Chambers of AoW2.

    Actually, what I meant with that is of replacing with something that would be similar but still count towards requirements to not lose the Grand Palace.

    Example: Instead of a Grand Temple to give Orcs +10 Mana and +100 Mana Capacity, they could have the Doombat Totem that would give +100 Mana Capacity and the ability to produce Doombats (or maybe give new produced/summoned units Lifesteal), but it would still count as a Grand Temple for Grand Palace purposes.

    My intention was to help create slightly diverse economies/combat advantages for the races and/or even access to extra units by making certain building different from usual.

    Master of Magic races worked on the basis that choosing your race said a lot about your strategy. Some races built up really fast and plateaued early – gnolls and klackons are good examples here – and were good for building a commanding lead early on that you could use to stay dominant through the game. Other races required more investment (a lot more in the case of High Men and Dark Elves) but that investment was well rewarded. This does mean that the “faster” races could be a little boring when you pick them up in the midgame, but I did find they were still useful either for trade goods production or to pump out a lot of high-grade filler.

    Of course, that sort of balance between races probably is not compatible with Age of Wonders allowing migration…

    I can see your point, but I still find the Klarckons (I mispelled last time, forgot about the “c”) “problematic” because they are a one trick pony. They are really excellent for expanding fast but that’s all they do, and their lack of a shaman unit makes them suffer a major blow on economy from Meteors and Chaos Magic users (due to the corruption that could be generated by those). Goblins in AoW are a rush race but are a more versatile one, especially with the class system. They still have weaknesses – and overspecialization on Blight can be one against Undead even with the Blight Doctor to soft things a bit – but there are many ways to play Goblins compared to one way to play Klarckons.

    Maybe I could try Klarckons again to try to have a different view. But I still think that the MoM way of having assimetry is not ideal for this game.

    Yeah, I realize that. To me, AoW (the first) felt like the evolution of MOM, though – and AoW2 even more so – giving each race a fully fledged unit roster, as well as the same to every magic sphere. So, however disrespectful it sounds towards the “ancestor” of the games, I don’t want a devolution – I don’t want AoW to go back to the wildly different, uneven, unbalanced races. For me it’d feel like a step back.
    Adding modding options to units/races, like Shadow Magic did, would help in giving those people who want that this option without completely changing the main game.

    Agreed, even thought we can learn a lot of good things with MoM – in fact, some of my earlier suggestion for features to this game were based on things from MoM – we still need to keep in mind that we are not doing an exact clone.

    Actually, your comment reminds me of a problem that I’m seeing with indie gaming: there’s too many “retro games” that only know to “pay homage” and don’t innovate in nothing that’s not even funny anymore.

    Not saying that using 8/16/whatever bits graphics is wrong, because I saw games with unique gameplay despite being “retro” (I really want to try Crypt of the Necrodancer), but still…

    #219418

    Draxynnic
    Member

    It’s a difficult tightrope to tread when making a remake (spiritual or otherwise) of someone else’s game. Too little innovation, and it’s basically just a graphics update. Too much, and for many fans you risk losing what gave the game its charm in the first place (look at Master of Orion 3, Majesty 2, and for many people, the rebooted HoM&M). Some companies manage to pull it off – I’ve heard good things about the new XCom – but there are a lot of high-profile failures.

    #219445

    BB Shockwave
    Member

    I think change is good when it is done well, and there is a lot of thought put into it. Both the new X-Com and King’s Bounty changed gameplay significantly, but they did it so well, I don’t even miss time units in X-Com anymore (and it was perhaps the first tactical game I ever played). King’s Bounty added tons of skills and abilities to units, and made initiative and speed different, but the game plays better as a result, not worse.

    On the other hand, HOMMV did a lot of wrongs, but I could have still played the game had it not been for one crucial change that I hate to this day – the stupid initiative system. It basically made concepts like “1 round” meaningless, with units acting 2-3 times per turn and your hero having to wait in line to cast spells – for me it was just not HOMM anymore. That’s not to say the Asha nonsense and the Warhammer/Warcraft style redesigns made the game endearing in the first place.

    #219455

    methegrate
    Member

    I think races could be helped a lot by limiting what you can build in cities populated by your non-primary race. I actually think the variation is pretty good right now (imho), but as far as gameplay goes there’s really not a lot of point to the initial selection. Maybe I start as dwarves, but once I’ve scooped up some humans, elves, halflings and goblins who really cares? I get those knights and archers no matter what.

    It’s one thought at least but that’s been my experience. The races themselves are good, the real problem is that you just play as pretty much all of them in every game.

    #219462

    For the latter, one idea was to have a toggle determining which races start on a map. That’d also be good for roleplaying purposes.

    #219502

    methegrate
    Member

    Agreed, that would certainly help for roleplaying purposes. Although strategically it also matters. Right now I can get an opponent’s entire racial build tree by capturing any of his cities (especially if I crank out a couple of settlers).

    #219759

    BB Shockwave
    Member

    I think races could be helped a lot by limiting what you can build in cities populated by your non-primary race. I actually think the variation is pretty good right now (imho), but as far as gameplay goes there’s really not a lot of point to the initial selection. Maybe I start as dwarves, but once I’ve scooped up some humans, elves, halflings and goblins who really cares? I get those knights and archers no matter what.

    It’s one thought at least but that’s been my experience. The races themselves are good, the real problem is that you just play as pretty much all of them in every game.

    Not if you are evil, you’re not! 🙂 Or even if just neutral. I often just wanna use one race only and migrate all towns I conquer. I can later do some good acts to balance the evil ones. Frankly as this also really boosts your racial governance with your starting race, can be an incentive.

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