Racial Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Racial Balance Discussion

This topic contains 991 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  Pazerniusz 6 years, 11 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 271 through 300 (of 992 total)
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  • #218238

    madmac
    Member

    I wasn’t talking about a nerf I was talking aboout the way to include Skewers as T1 Pikemen back to Gobllin list and therfore giving Butchers some additional requirements. More since they are considered ont of the best T2 unit in the game.

    That would be a nerf, and a rather heavy one, as most viable Goblin strategies these days lean heavily on the Butcher being super cool.

    Also Skewers were terrible and I don’t want them back.

    #218239

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Okay, here’s my own thoughts about draconians combining with various classes:

    Archdruid:I think this is a solid combination but not an exceptional one. Hunters and Shamans give draconians good alternatives to fire for their ranged attacks (personally, in fact, I’d prefer if draconian shamans didn’t have the fire alternative ranged attack at all, but I lost that one a long time ago), while the speed boost means that both these units, and the tactically valuable flamers and elders, can be added to a fast-moving draconian stack without slowing it down too much (unless it’s composed of Flyers and you either have RG4M or it’s over rough terrain). No frills (well, figure of speech…) but I think there is a reasonable synergy between draconian and archdruid, it just doesn’t get longbow hunters or werebear shamans.

    Dreadnought: Similar to Tigrans, the draconian dreadnought is handicapped by the lack of draconian armoured racial units and by cavalry not being a strength of the draconian racial lineup. Immolation Engineers are potentially useful, but if you’re going to exclusively use class units, tigrans are probably better for the extra in-combat move. You have a flying units, allowing for the potential for interesting tricks with Weapon Kit, but generally, if you want to add some mobility to a dreadnought force, elves offer better synergy. Any draconian racial unit with enough medals becomes immune to fire with Forge Aprons, allowing for flame tank combinations, but dwarves fulfill that role better, as do frostlings when combined with Frost Tanks.

    Overall, I think draconians offer an interesting box of tricks if a draconian city is picked up by a dreadnought… but it’s not really a compelling choice to start as.

    Necromancer: I think this to be a surprisingly good combination. You lose Fast Healing, of course, but most races have lost their healing, and you get it back through Life Stealing on most of your melee units, Regrowth on Crushers and Chargers, and Heal Undead on Elders (and Reanimators). Elemental strengths and weaknesses of draconians and undead largely balance each other out. When you want mobility, Flyers can keep up with (and even outpace) necromancer summons. If you want to get additional flying units as a necromancer, draconian is probably your best choice (lifestealing Flyers with Killing Momentum, and in the earlier game, Chargers with Regrowth), and there isn’t anything that I can see offhand to make it a bad choice.

    Rogue: For Rogues, Flyers offer the potential for a flying unit with Backstab, Killing Momentum (which can mean multiple Backstabs per turn), and a multichannel attack (potentially three channels with the aid of an Elder and/or RG5M). Their assassins and scoundrels aren’t really anything special, but Shadow Stalkers give them an option in the later game when they need cold rather than fire. Tigrans probably have more useful class units, but I think draconians do make for a solid choice here as well, probably one of the better ones (although not as much as they were on initial release.)

    Sorcerer: I think this is still a top-tier option, even with the nerfing (in most circumstances) of draconian apprentices: picking up any other race but tigrans will give back access to triple-channel apprentices if you want them. For slower-moving armies, the sorcerer upgrades make what is probably still one of the better racial supports in the game even better, while flyers make for a good addition to more mobile all-floating-or-flying stacks. One of the strong features of this combination (and, incidentally, for necromancers) is the ‘your walls mean nothing’ feel, with both sorcerer summons and some draconian racial units able to get over walls quite easily.

    Theocrat: This is one of the stronger combinations for draconian, despite being, in my mind at least, thematically a bit weird. Draconian Evangelists being one of the two shooting Evangelists is a significant strength, particularly since draconians in general and the evangelists in particular give the theocrat access to a nonphysical channel that isn’t Fire. Healing Elders are also good to have around, especially when theocrat out-of-combat healing is added to already fast draconian healing for extremely repid bounce-back from combats. Draconian Exalted are among the stronger Exalted, and Crusaders are decent with their wallclimbing ability, although orc and dwarf crusaders are probably better. The one fly in the ointment is that Flamers and Chargers can’t get Devout, but it’s probably reasonable to focus on class units.

    Warlord: Where Theocrat is a combination that I think is strong despite being thematically weird, draconian warlord is a combination that I think should be the most thematically fitting for a more martial draconian leader, but mechanically is fairly uninspiring. I think there is a hidden advantage to this combination in that they cover each other’s weaknesses: a primary weakness of the warlord is that warlord class units are all mostly physical, and draconians offer plenty of sources for nonphysical damage channels. Conversely, warlords offer draconians a source of ranged damage that isn’t totally nerfed by fire resistance and immunity. (Which is part of why I dislike fire-spitting monster hunters: it’s actually a nerf in the guise of a buff, since once a warlord gets draconians, they already have access to plenty of fire damage from Hatchlings, Flamers, Raptors and Elders, but fire-spitting monster hunters makes it harder for a pure draconian warlord to deal with fire-resistant monsters.)

    However, the two also don’t do a lot to reinforce one another’s strengths. Draconians don’t have a lot to offer warlords: they don’t give much to berserkers and those berserkers are probably overshadowed by regrowth chargers anyway, see above for monster hunters, and their manticore riders aren’t really a top choice. Warlords also don’t do much to help draconians: warlords really want to be using cavalry for Thoroughbred Mounts, and draconian cavalry isn’t the most exciting (although the fire damage is useful for Warlords). One interesting trick you can do is using Death March on Regrowth Chargers and Crushers, but on the whole, I feel that for warlords, draconians can be a nice race to be the second that you pick up, but I don’t think they have much draw to start with them.

    Summary: On the whole, I think draconians are top-tier with sorceror, competing with frostlings – mostly because sorcerer is a class that doesn’t have a lot of synergies with race in general, so those that are present are magnified (I don’t think that either are actually brokenly good, but they do offer clear options that other races don’t, which makes them good choices to make sure you have). They’re strong with rogue, theocrat, and necromancer: as yet these classes don’t seem to really have top-tier races at all, but have a wider range of races that are strong enough with them. They’re also good with archdruid, but not enough to compete with elves and tigrans. Dreadnoughts and warlords they’re both a little on the weak side with: for dreadnoughts I think that’s perfectly acceptable because it’s a thematically weird combination anyway and there are still a lot of imaginative ways you can use the combination if you do take it, but warlords I’d like to see getting some boosts that are thematic and not simply ‘have more fire!’.

    #218241

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Also Skewers were terrible and I don’t want them back.

    I’ve seen a few ideas along the idea of nerfing them a little and making them available at Barracks. The image of the pitiful goblin with a spear because he doesn’t want to get close enough to be hit with a sword is one that goes back to AoW1.

    #218245

    madmac
    Member

    Their assassins and scoundrels aren’t really anything special

    Actually, Draconian Assassins with Improved Wall Climbing and Fast Healing are to me, vying with Tigran Assassins as the best variation of that unit.

    Drac Rogue is pretty much top tier in general.

    #218251

    Akinaba
    Member

    Also Skewers were terrible and I don’t want them back.

    I’ve seen a few ideas along the idea of nerfing them a little and making them available at Barracks. The image of the pitiful goblin with a spear because he doesn’t want to get close enough to be hit with a sword is one that goes back to AoW1.

    Yeah I thought of it and can not come up with how to force them coexist with Butchers not to ppushing already good Goblins too much further, but generally I like the idea to have them from the start (on Barracks)

    #218254

    I wouldn’t mind Skewers back, in the barracks.

    So Goblins have early pikes, then much better Pikes later.

    #218256

    Akinaba
    Member

    So Goblins have early pikes, then much better Pikes later.

    Is that sarcasm? Not too much for them?

    #218257

    Prodigal Sun
    Member

    Their assassins and scoundrels aren’t really anything special

    Actually, Draconian Assassins with Improved Wall Climbing and Fast Healing are to me, vying with Tigran Assassins as the best variation of that unit.

    Drac Rogue is pretty much top tier in general.

    This.

    Improved wallclimbing and being able to handle attrition best is great for all out on Assassin stacks, and to level them without being slowed by a healer.

    #218260

    @ Ak, not sarcasm at all.

    In earlier games Goblins got the earliest Pike.

    Lorewise, Butchers are mad Skewers with magic Pikes.

    Butchers are fairly expensive and require teching up to Warhall + pike medal building, so Goblins having the (inferior but cheaper) option to mass Skewers seems pretty thematic to me.

    Besides, iirc, Skewers have nothing special going for them, no overwhelm or guard breaker etc.

    #218264

    Akinaba
    Member

    @ Ak, not sarcasm at all.

    In earlier games Goblins got the earliest Pike.

    Lorewise, Butchers are mad Skewers with magic Pikes.

    Butchers are fairly expensive and require teching up to Warhall + pike medal building, so Goblins having the (inferior but cheaper) option to mass Skewers seems pretty thematic to me.

    Besides, iirc, Skewers have nothing special going for them, no overwhelm or guard breaker etc.

    Plus one for this

    #218268

    NINJEW
    Member

    please do not nerf butchers at all they are almost singlehandedly holding up the entire goblin race (swarm darters are their workout trainer at the gym)

    skewers being randomly made available with no other changes i would not particularly care about. i probably wouldn’t use them, but as long as it didn’t hurt my ability to use butchers it’s not like i’d complain about being given more options

    #218274

    Draxynnic I love your post and how you break down each class combo with Draconians. Would you or anyone else be willing to do this for other races? For someone newer like me it’s great to see the thought processes behind people’s combos that I didn’t see before. (Like Draconian Theocrat or a post I saw about Tigran Warlords.) Perhaps these are easy/normal thought processes for established players, but for newbies it’s great to see.

    #218275

    @ Ninjew, I don’t want to nerf Butchers.

    #218280

    NINJEW
    Member

    So Goblins have early pikes, then much better Pikes later.

    Is that sarcasm? Not too much for them?

    more responding to this idea than to you with the butchers comment. i don’t think that you think that butchers need to be nerfed, but generally a buff (like skewers being made available early) would come with a balancing nerf (like butchers getting pushed back in building requirements) and i wanted to make it clear that it is my opinion that while i’d be fine with skewers being available, i would not be in favor of any butcher-nerfs being made to balance that “buff”

    #218285

    Agreed.

    I wouldn’t touch the Butchers. I just think Skewers in the Goblin line up would.be flavourful.

    It wouldn’t help them.much though, because if you’re planning a Pike central strategy then you’d pick Butchers every time.

    It’s a poor mans Pike.option, for when you find yourself Cav rushed.

    #218286

    Akinaba
    Member

    Okay so I quick rewiewed the Skewers, Maraduer and Butcher stats, and that’s how I see it:

    Remove 1 defense and Armour Piercing on Skewers and add “Evolve to Butcher” Trait instead. They can also suffer -2 health if needed (what will make them even more unlikely to live through to Gold) and add them to the barracks slightly cheaper then Maraduers.

    Also, Evolving to Butchers may be avaliable only after you can produce Butchers in any of your cities (like Lesser Shadow Stalkers evolve into bigger ones only after they are researched).

    Edit: My bad. They’re allready 4 Gold cheaper then Maraduers. Maybe it will be fiine to confine with removing either 1 Defense or Armour Piercing solemnly.

    #218299

    NINJEW
    Member

    Also, Evolving to Butchers may be avaliable only after you can produce Butchers in any of your cities (like Lesser Shadow Stalkers evolve into bigger ones only after they are researched).

    Considering that’s just a Warhall, that isn’t a very meaningful limitation. Additionally, while Butchers are very good, they’re no free Shadow Stalker. Plus, while evolving Scoundrels into Lesser Stalkers is difficult, Lesser Stalkers clear ridiculously well, so it’s not hard at all to get one to gold and have a free Shadow Stalker, while getting a Skewer to gold would be quite a feat indeed. The Shadow Stalker evolve requirement is only there because the jump in power from Lesser Stalker to Shadow Stalker is quite big, can be done early, and Shadow Stalkers are a late game unit (while Butchers are still an Early Game unit, Skewers would just be an Even Earlier Game unit).

    The Shadow Stalker Research Requirement was not always there, that was a balance decision put in place because hordes of the best unit in the game far before anyone could reasonably have it researched was kind of OP. Getting a few free Butchers from Skewers is not something that would happen before a player could reasonably gain access to Butchers, and Butchers are not as ridiculously powerful as Shadow Stalkers are.

    #218300

    ExNihil
    Member

    @Drax,

    Thanks for an excellent post. I agree with your analysis basically, only think is assassins as I previously wrote to Zaskow, but the Scoundrels are so-so.

    As for the WL I absolutely agree, I always found Draconians a bit less WLish than I felt they should be. I’ll be glad for your proposals and thoughts on how to improve their synergy with WL.

    I think that perhaps a little change to the RG econ side of things wouldn’t be a bad idea, to introduce something a bit more WL oriented somewhere in there.

    As for units, I think the Raptor could benefit from something that makes it more appealing to WL, it’s simply not a good enough choice ATM when compared with some other t2 cavalry. Chargers are very useful, but in themselves they are more appealing to Rogue I’d say, but perhaps if they are switched to t2, incurring cost and main increases and shifted from barracks to WH, they could be upgraded in a way that makes them really interesting for WL.

    Crushers are sort of muhh, nothing to write home-about, even with regrowth, so that might be the simplest point for upgrade – what they are lacking really is any sort of inter-unit synergy, after all WL doesn’t use support units inherently, and all the really cool stuff happens with Elders + another Draconian unit.

    Flyers are really excellent, but they really aren’t as appealing as HE Gryphon Riders, Knights or for that matter – Eagle Riders.

    As for WL class units – I agree that Berserker is sort of made redundant by Chargers, so maybe it should be buffed somehow that makes it more interesting and useful, any suggestions? and perhaps the War-breed could receive “greater regrowth”?

    #218301

    NINJEW
    Member

    Interesting that you say that Chargers would be useful mostly for Rogue, because personally I find that the best Draconian racial non-t3 for Rogue is Raptors. They might actually survive in auto while clearing, they’re fast and thus make good units for your leaderstack once you have forest concealment, and in manual combat the Dual Channel damage is like having backstab for free

    Chargers might be useful after RG2, I don’t know, because that usually doesn’t happen until around turn 20 and by that point I”m looking for something better anyway

    #218304

    ExNihil
    Member

    They are cheap and highly manauverable backstabbers that get regrowth, what can be bad about them? If they are upgraded to t2 and get some more XP and perhaps dual channel themselves they will be a top pick. I think they could really benefit from extra 4 MP, which fits well with their lesser flying.

    #218306

    ExNihil
    Member

    @doctorbigtime read the thread from the beginning, High Elves and Tigrans have already been discussed. I give you my permission to qoute and copy whatever you find of value in my posts in your PBEM thread.

    #218309

    ExNihil
    Member

    About skewers, do you guys think this will substantially boost Goblins? I find skewers to be total crap really and I’m really glad they were replaced.

    #218312

    NINJEW
    Member

    They are cheap and highly manauverable backstabbers that get regrowth, what can be bad about them? If they are upgraded to t2 and get some more XP and perhaps dual channel themselves they will be a top pick. I think they could really benefit from extra 4 MP, which fits well with their lesser flying.

    well, by turn 20 i’m not really looking for racials to use for those purposes. i’m more about the awesome draconian assassins then. so chargers being decent is a bit of a nonissue, i don’t want an upfront fight anyway and for sneaking around with my leader’s stealth commander stack, raptors are more mobile.

    #218313

    NINJEW
    Member

    About skewers, do you guys think this will substantially boost Goblins? I find skewers to be total crap really and I’m really glad they were replaced.

    pretty sure literally no one thinks that skewers will substantially help goblins in any way

    #218314

    Dr_K
    Member

    Chargers are very useful, but in themselves they are more appealing to Rogue I’d say, but perhaps if they are switched to t2, incurring cost and main increases and shifted from barracks to WH, they could be upgraded in a way that makes them really interesting for WL.

    They are cheap and highly manauverable backstabbers that get regrowth, what can be bad about them?

    What are you talking about? Chargers are Pikeman units which means they do not benefit from Cruel Backstab and already require a War Hall to be built.

    Do you mean ‘flankers’ instead of ‘backstabbers’?

    #218318

    Akinaba
    Member

    pretty sure literally no one thinks that skewers will substantially help goblins in any way

    Then it would not be that much of a pain to put them there and be fine with it.

    #218321

    Ultimatum
    Member

    Ignore this post..

    #218332

    The Mentat
    Member

    @doctorbigtime: This thread can also help you to find some good combinations.

    #218338

    NINJEW
    Member

    Then it would not be that much of a pain to put them there and be fine with it.

    no one disagrees, really.

    i mean as a matter of game design it needlessly clutters up your choices, and newer players might be “tricked” into thinking skewers are worth their time (skewers are never worth anyone’s time), but balance-wise yeah it wouldn’t really change much.

    #218355

    ExNihil
    Member

    What are you talking about? Chargers are Pikeman units which means they do not benefit from Cruel Backstab and already require a War Hall to be built.

    Indeed, Lol.

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