Racial Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Racial Balance Discussion

This topic contains 991 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  Pazerniusz 6 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 301 through 330 (of 992 total)
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  • #218358

    Zaskow
    Member

    Crushers are sort of muhh, nothing to write home-about, even with regrowth, so that might be the simplest point for upgrade – what they are lacking really is any sort of inter-unit synergy

    They also lack any interesting ability as swordsman.

    As for WL class units – I agree that Berserker is sort of made redundant by Chargers, so maybe it should be buffed somehow that makes it more interesting and useful, any suggestions?

    Regrowth with RG2 military upgrade?

    #218360

    NINJEW
    Member

    if you want the best berserker in the game by an absolute mile, sure

    regrowth is only balanced on crusher and charger because they’re fairly squishy units. regrowth on t2 and above has some very serious balance ramifications.

    #218398

    Zaskow
    Member

    regrowth is only balanced on crusher and charger because they’re fairly squishy units. regrowth on t2 and above has some very serious balance ramifications.

    Regrowth is almost useless on low-hp units, because they usually die sooner, than regrowth could work.
    I don’t find warbreeds and nagas especially OP units.

    #218404

    ExNihil
    Member

    Difference between t1/2 is fluid ability wise and some units have t2 stats at t1. Consider Sun Guard for example. I suggest that in any case Charger receive +4 MP, and if it is upgraded to t2 and moved to War Hall, which is already a nerf of sorts (WH), its price be upgraded by +15-20 production units (mana and/or gold). This will come with +3-5 HP at BL and t2 level scaling (+4, +4, +4, +8 HP) so at GM a Charger will have 70-72 HP before RG2 and after 77-79 HP. I would also reduce its physical attack to 9 and add +3 fire damage and scale it on leveling, thus dealing 11 physical and 5 fire at GM. For an additional 5 production units I’d add Inflict.Scorching Heat at GM. So this unit will cost 80 production units maximum, 70 minimum, which will make it attractive for a bunch of classes – at least much more than at present.

    You guys are right that by turn 20 you would look for something better than a t1 sort of mediocre pike with regrowt,, but I think the above really brings it in line with the kind of power you get from Tigrans, Frostlings and Goblins but at a higher price all together. This will be attractive much longer, offering an excellent option to counter massed cavalry strategies, which at present are borderline IMBA with Humans, and for WL with Martial Arts training can be a strategic focal point.

    #218409

    Zaskow
    Member

    Consider Sun Guard for example.

    Sun guard has crappy attack to be T2.

    #218414

    ExNihil
    Member

    By stats I mean def/res/hp, and sun guard has a gr8 ability package and very attractive pricing.

    #218418

    Hatmage
    Member

    I feel that increasing the HP of the charger, and thus greatly increasing the power of its’ regrowth, is not ideal. Firstly, the charger is an incredibly mobile early hero-counter, able to use its’ charge and polearm abilities in assassination tactics to great effect, and secondly, I worry that this change might leave upgraded chargers in a position to beat their gold cost in other T1 pikes.

    The fact they don’t and can’t do this is the necessary counterbalance to their combination of charge, first strike, polearm and ridiculous tactical mobility for their tier. Even upgraded chargers should lose to impalers, union guards and halberdiers unless spells are used. That’s the price of being flying pseudo-cavalry who can charge even foes with first strike.
    Sun guards are a grey area, in being ability-overloaded early units themselves and probably wanting a counter outside of frost magic – they should probably beat chargers, but it would be nice if sun shielded units took 4 damage from overwhelm rather than 3. Halfling pikes are going to be inherently “swingy” in whether they beat chargers because halfings have some dubious mechanics, which make one shot abilities like charging far less valuable against them than in normal gameplay, but also have 20% physical weakness where -1 defence would arguably make more sense.

    #218421

    Zaskow
    Member

    By stats I mean def/res/hp, and sun guard has a gr8 ability package and very attractive pricing.

    Orc Impaler has more attractive pricing.

    #218422

    ExNihil
    Member

    Zas, I used the words “for example” – there are all sorts of deals.

    I just played a PBEM turn as draconian on the new beta, I see chargers have moved to War-hall there – but it will take me a few more turns to see what changes have been implemented, anyone got an idea?

    #218426

    NINJEW
    Member

    Regrowth is almost useless on low-hp units, because they usually die sooner, than regrowth could work.
    I don’t find warbreeds and nagas especially OP units.

    funny, i’d always considered warbreeds to be the best warlord unit

    naga are probably tied with fairies for most useful dwellling in the game to own (unitwise, anyway. reef colony economic advantage is pretty good too)

    regrowth is probably the single most powerful ability in the game. there’s a reasons you have powerful shrines that grant things like “+ranged damage AND life steal AND high morale” and then another shrine that only grants regrowth. it’s really good, and was removed from the item forge because it was too good.

    #218427

    NINJEW
    Member

    Zas, I used the words “for example” – there are all sorts of deals.

    I just played a PBEM turn as draconian on the new beta, I see chargers have moved to War-hall there – but it will take me a few more turns to see what changes have been implemented, anyone got an idea?

    weren’t chargers always warhall?

    #218428

    ExNihil
    Member

    The fact they don’t and can’t do this is the necessary counterbalance to their combination of charge, first strike, polearm and ridiculous tactical mobility for their tier. Even upgraded chargers should lose to impalers, union guards and halberdiers unless spells are used. That’s the price of being flying pseudo-cavalry who can charge even foes with first strike.

    M8, chargers are rather crappy units without the regrowth. They now got lesser flying, that pretty much their only interesting or good thing – and although very useful, they don’t have athletics and only 28 MP. The regrowth comes at RG2, updating a really mediocre swordsman unit, around turn 20, into something more useful but still rather mah – nobody is really going to benefit from this one. So this leaves the charger, which is a rather mediocre pike unit with lesser flying that is updated into a t1 with regrowth, this unit can be killed within one round by several t2 units, and I think that orc t1 wit warcry can also alpha strike it. I wouldn’t call these units “hero assassins” they are limited flying units, which even with extra +4MP would not be up to par with other flying units in terms of battlefield performance and certainly not strategically.

    At RG2 the already very impressive Frostling Royal Guard gets life-stealing and increased defense. With RG1 Impaler and Greatsword can definitely kill the shield-less charger in one round, even with regrowth. At RG1 the Sun Guard has more HP at BL than most t2 melee units melee units at Iron Medal, which comes on top the def/res stats of a t3 unit when not-flanked.

    Basically what I’m proposing is to make this into a top grade pikeman unit – given the regrowth upgrade (without it will just be a good pike unit bcs. of lesser flying), which would give Draconians something really attractive for classes that don’t use supports so much, or benefit from having a flying infantry unit (i.e. Rogue, and to a much lesser extant Theo) into the mid-game and even have some late game viability when further upgraded (with MCUs or specs). This will make Draconian WL better first and foremost, would also benefit DN a bit (with weapon kit casted), certainly be a good viable option for Theo (who can’t upgrade archer and irregular units) when combined with elders, and will also improve Necro I’d guess.

    #218431

    ExNihil
    Member

    weren’t chargers always warhall?

    Now I’m not sure. Will need to move between versions to see.

    EDIT: I c in the wiki that apparently yes. Weird, I was certain t1 pikes were barracks. Anyhow, this is even a stronger case for upgrading this unit IMO.

    #218438

    ExNihil
    Member

    with regrowth a BL charger regenerates 9 HP, and at GM 11 HP. If it has t2 HP, which here would be 52 at BL and 72 at GM, it will regenerate 10 HP at BL and 14 HP at GM, I wouldn’t call this game-breaking.

    #218444

    Hatmage
    Member

    When I called Chargers “assassins” I referred to the +11 damage they can get through combining a charge that can’t be interrupted by first strike with polearm, and the fact they can make this charge on any hero in shooting range of them unless engaged. While making full use of this requires many chargers, combining even two with an attack spell is enough to kill a low level hero in a single round even at the maximum engagement distance of the chargers, and that range of engagement/high damage in one attack is what makes them far more of a hero-killer than normal pikeneers. Thats their niche. They do the same thing to cavalry, though it’s less impactful, and are one of the pikes that can be expected to beat an arecher of the same tier. And the tradeoff is being poor in a defence role, especially by pike standards, before regrowth, and still losing to other pikes with it. They’re in a good place. I don’t think they want changing.

    #218455

    ExNihil
    Member

    Problem is that they lose relevance fast, and Draconians don’t have any other martial unit that can be upgraded to be really attractive to WL. Flyers are were they should be IMO, and Raptors are also OK, so that leaves the Charger pretty much. For me there is no problem with a unit being extra deadly within a race’s lineup. For Draconians to be really deadly they need the synergy with Elders, which is only attractive to classes that use supports extensively, which I find to be problematic since I agree with Drax that Draconians should be a bit more martial in nature.

    #218459

    Zaskow
    Member

    with regrowth a BL charger regenerates 9 HP, and at GM 11 HP. If it has t2 HP, which here would be 52 at BL and 72 at GM, it will regenerate 10 HP at BL and 14 HP at GM, I wouldn’t call this game-breaking.

    Why then berserker with regrowth was called game-breaking?

    #218463

    Hatmage
    Member

    I’d say boost the crusher. It could use a boost. And it’s a dude with a club and regrowth making it like the warbreed, but without being repulsive in every possible way.
    Maybe as dudes with pseudo-macahuitls they could recieve via governance or medal some ability relating to sacrifices/capturing foes. Life drain kind of fits, but it’s everywhere already, mark blood sacrifice doesn’t work on a melee troop, but maybe they could recieve the blood sacrifice bonus when they score a kill? Maybe they could just recieve Coup-de-grace, which would be synergy with warlord monster hunters. Maybe they could get demolisher or wall crushing, which matches the name crusher perfectly.
    If I were to propose new abilities requiring new code, something like polearm resistance would fit them and help drac players deal with the fact 3 of 7 draconian racial troops take extra polearm damage. Alternately, I’ve previously proposed a “fearless” ability that might fit them (unit is immune to panic and despair, has +100 morale).

    #218467

    NINJEW
    Member

    which would give Draconians something really attractive for classes that don’t use supports so much, or benefit from having a flying infantry unit (i.e. Rogue, and to a much lesser extant Theo)

    i don’t think draconian rogue is really hurting for buffs

    #218470

    NINJEW
    Member

    Why then berserker with regrowth was called game-breaking?

    because you’d have a mass produced unit that effectively gets the healing of guardian flames every single turn, when the unit without that is already fairly strong.

    so i’d say that what ExNihil is proposing would indeed be fairly OP.

    #218471

    Zaskow
    Member

    Maybe they could just recieve Coup-de-grace, which would be synergy with warlord monster hunters.

    Throw net is gold medal ability. What a nice synergy…

    #218474

    Zaskow
    Member

    because you’d have a mass produced unit that effectively gets the healing of guardian flames every single turn, when the unit without that is already fairly strong.

    OMG! 10 hp is so fucking big!
    Nah… What about Naga t2s then?
    And draco berserker is noticeable weaker than orc and tigran variants.

    #218475

    NINJEW
    Member

    naga t2s:

    1. can’t be mass produced (dwelling problems)
    2. are very good

    i dunno what your point is.

    yeah 10hp is pretty big. it’s the entirety of dwarven healing. doesn’t matter much on a t1 unit that can be focused down with only 2 units. berserkers are a different matter all together.

    #218478

    Just an aside wrt to Drac Theo, they came from and worshipped Dragons, so Imho going worship of one thing to worship of another is not thematically a big leap.

    Plus they’ve traditionally been persecuted.

    For their lineup, well you all know I think Dracs are basically too humanoid for me, but that is a lost cause.

    Getting back to reality, I am drawing a blank as to how to make them more WL compatible.

    Only 2 ideas present themselves to me.

    Mh to not have fire damage and get something else.

    Drac Wb are, in my mind, the convergence of 2 lines of eugenics, from Drac culture and WL culture, so Imho they should be the best Wb out there.

    I propose extra hp OR fire breathe. That would make them land bound Dragons and give Drac WL a stand out unit.

    Ofcourse it’d have to be more.expensive.

    But that should make up.for not having such a good Massed Cav option.

    #218482

    Zaskow
    Member

    doesn’t matter much on a t1 unit that can be focused down with only 2 units. berserkers are a different matter all together.

    Berserker can be focused down by 2 units too, I don’t see here big problem.
    Also I suggested Regrowth WITH RG upgrade. You will have regrowth on your bers only at turn 20 and when you ONLY choose military upgrade.

    #218496

    Wallthing
    Member

    Drac Wb are, in my mind, the convergence of 2 lines of eugenics, from Drac culture and WL culture, so Imho they should be the best Wb out there.

    I propose extra hp OR fire breathe. That would make them land bound Dragons and give Drac WL a stand out unit.

    Ofcourse it’d have to be more.expensive.

    But that should make up.for not having such a good Massed Cav option.

    I like this idea. Draconians ‘focusing’ on a unit that innately has regrowth makes thematic sense, too, on top of the eugenics thing.

    #218504

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Chargers are, I think, a fairly awesome unit for when they can first come out. Lesser flying makes them good at storming the walls of a city in the early game, they come close to being cavalry at half the upkeep and with big bonuses to damage and defence when fighting actual cavalry and other flyers. They’re tier 1, but they bring a lot of utility for their upkeep, particularly when they get Regrowth. Certainly, in the earlier stages of the game, I’d rather have two Chargers than one Unicorn Rider in most circumstances (unless I have or expect to get a special bonus with cavalry) and the two chargers aren’t much more expensive to produce than the unicorn rider. The weaknesses that chargers do have are intended in part to stop them from being so awesome that people can just ignore Flyers entirely and just swarm everything with packs of Chargers.

    Crushers are a bit lackluster at the moment, but they’re basically a melee anti-pikemen option for draconians, since draconians have little else that can fight pikemen in melee without suffering from Polearm and Pike Square. They do get Tireless on gold, but I’d have to admit that that’s probably a less useful ability on a unit that tends to be fairly fragile for a melee unit. At the risk of antisynergising more with Warlord, Martial Arts might well suit them better – allowing them to hack into a pike unit while suffering less from First Strike.

    Actually, Draconian Assassins with Improved Wall Climbing and Fast Healing are to me, vying with Tigran Assassins as the best variation of that unit.

    Drac Rogue is pretty much top tier in general.

    A lot of other races get various special stuff on their assassins too. Draconian assassins get a nice benefit, and I probably did underestimate Fast Healing in that analysis (since for a potentially sneaky unit like assassins, it’s better not to need to drag a support along), but rogue is probably actually one of the classes that is most even among the races. The combination of assassins that are fairly good, dual-channel succubi, and backstabbing Flyers may well put draconians in the top position, but they certainly don’t stand out as much as, say, elf warlords. There’s no clear standouts for best choice for rogues, just a wide range of good options, with some being a little better than others.

    Draxynnic I love your post and how you break down each class combo with Draconians. Would you or anyone else be willing to do this for other races? For someone newer like me it’s great to see the thought processes behind people’s combos that I didn’t see before. (Like Draconian Theocrat or a post I saw about Tigran Warlords.) Perhaps these are easy/normal thought processes for established players, but for newbies it’s great to see.

    Willing, yes, but whether I have time to do so anytime soon is another question.

    I think we’ve discussed putting stuff like this up on the wiki (http://age-of-wonders-3.wikia.com/wiki/Age_Of_Wonders_3_Wiki). There’s some basic comboes up there now, but we haven’t yet got to putting full analyses up yet, partially because things have a tendency to shift. Now might be a good time to do so, though.

    As for units, I think the Raptor could benefit from something that makes it more appealing to WL, it’s simply not a good enough choice ATM when compared with some other t2 cavalry.

    Thoroughbred Raptors do give the warlord a cavalry unit with a large nonphysical component to its damage, which does make for a nice plus for dealing with that weakness of the warlord before manticores come online. To be honest, I do think that raptors may have gotten a little shortchanged when their damage got made half and half phys/fire: most units that get a dual channel get a net +1 to damage as well, and raptors missed out on that (they were 12 physical before, and became 6/6 after). So an extra point of physical damage may be warranted.

    In terms of the warlord, though, cavalry isn’t really intended to be a draconian strong point. I’d probably be inclined to let the raptor stay as a mounted melee unit with a large component of nonphysical damage – this is valuable enough. Where I’d focus on, I think, is finding a fitting and balanced boost for other draconian warlord units. For instance, making RG2 grant Regeneration to Berserkers and Phalanxes: Regrowth probably is a bit too much for reasons that have been stated, but Regeneration on a bunch of units combined with Death March allows for the potential of crazy mobility and rapid recovery from battles, which are both draconian themes. Oh, and give something special to their Warbreeds, ideally something that relates to them being more dragonish than the part-giant warbreeds of other races.

    Just an aside wrt to Drac Theo, they came from and worshipped Dragons, so Imho going worship of one thing to worship of another is not thematically a big leap.

    Some of them probably could have been said to worship Tempest, too. If there are Tempest shrines out there, some of them may well still do so.

    Still, I’m inclined to think that classes such as Archdruid and Sorcerer better represent dragon worship (possibly archdruid not so much now that wyverns are no longer on the summon list, but there’s still snakes and cockatrices…), while Theocrat still represents a more… humanoid form of worship, with the human-like figure on the Shrine of Smiting, the knightly armour of Crusaders, and angelic aspect of Exalted. Of course, there’s nothing stopping draconians from converting to other religions, but on the other hand, Court 2 indicates that dragon-worship is still probably the primary religion for draconians, making theocrat appear like a less likely combination.

    Now, a lot of this could probably be addressed through cosmetic changes to give draconians a more, well, draconic take on religion. Golden Realms 1 indicates that draconians may well consider Feathered Serpents to be sacred as well as dragons, so from that perspective the draconian Exalted does make a little more sense. There’s probably nothing not-draconian about crusaders fighting for the cause or floating holy machines blasting the blasphemers with holy fire either (in fact, when you consider how much fire there is between Holy Champions and the Shrine of Smiting, it makes a lot of sense). It’s just that visually it feels like they’re converts to the religion of one of the mammalian races rather than following a draconian religion.

    So it might well be that the issue is more one of visuals, in which case, we’re going back to the most recent poll. 😛

    #218505

    Akinaba
    Member

    Hey, Guys! It’s me derailing the discussion again! Posting it just not to forget and to share.

    I want to put a few words on Goblin DN Flame Tank that was discussed several times before already.

    So the main proposal was to simply make a Gas Tank for them with Gas Throwing (blight 25) and Explosive Gas Death (blight 20). But the main contra arguments were that Goblins do have too much Blight damage dealers already and giving them an extra damage channel is crucial against many foes (Undeads especially) and I totally agree with that point.

    However I had an idea to give them something a little bit more versible basing on our last discussion on Goblin Bomber unit. Instead of giving Goblin Tanks plainly Blight dmg I’d suggest to give them the two-dmg-channel machine – the Firegas (or Swampgas) Tank with Firegas Throwing (fire/blight 12/12 or 13/13) and Explosive Firegas Death (phys/fire/blight 6/6/6 or 7/7/7).

    One of the reasons of that proposal is that I never yet saw a fire/blight damage combo ability in the game and it’s simple to implement.

    Also would be nice to see some likewise abilities further in the game.

    P.S. Can anyone tell me, why does Explosive Death has phys/fire 10/10 dmg while Explosive Ice Death has plainly ice 20 dmg. Shouldn’t it be same phys/ice 10/10??

    ON TOPIC: I do feel that Crushers could use some addition to their flavour.

    #218540

    NINJEW
    Member

    A lot of other races get various special stuff on their assassins too. Draconian assassins get a nice benefit, and I probably did underestimate Fast Healing in that analysis (since for a potentially sneaky unit like assassins, it’s better not to need to drag a support along), but rogue is probably actually one of the classes that is most even among the races. The combination of assassins that are fairly good, dual-channel succubi, and backstabbing Flyers may well put draconians in the top position, but they certainly don’t stand out as much as, say, elf warlords. There’s no clear standouts for best choice for rogues, just a wide range of good options, with some being a little better than others.

    sounds like a very good balance and not something that should be changed at all

    seriously human, draconian, and tigran assassins are all pretty neck and neck for top assassin position. don’t underestimate the draconian assassin, they might not be flashy but they’re definitely one of the most effective and attractive.

    #218545

    NINJEW
    Member

    However I had an idea to give them something a little bit more versible basing on our last discussion on Goblin Bomber unit. Instead of giving Goblin Tanks plainly Blight dmg I’d suggest to give them the two-dmg-channel machine – the Firegas (or Swampgas) Tank with Firegas Throwing (fire/blight 12/12 or 13/13) and Explosive Firegas Death (phys/fire/blight 6/6/6 or 7/7/7).

    i don’t particularly see what this would add to game balance, but there’s many potential ways that it would detract from game balance.

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