Racial Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Racial Balance Discussion

This topic contains 991 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  Pazerniusz 6 years, 8 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 451 through 480 (of 992 total)
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  • #219938

    ExNihil
    Member

    Why difficult to implement? Luck is already an existing mechanic.

    #219951

    NINJEW
    Member

    BL is a rather confusing way to refer to baseline. i thought it meant bronze level, and i think that means that youa nd i have been talking about slightly different units in multiple conversations now.

    “medalless” or “recruit” i think would be the best way to refer to a unit without upgrades.

    in any case, your suggestion is probably difficult to implement because it isn’t an existing mechanic. hitting a unit an extra time based on chance would be a new, uncoded ability. the same goes for “crits even harder.”

    that being said, the devs don’t seem particularly shy to implementing new abilities (though that’s certainly more work for them than reimplementing the same ability), so it’s a little hard to say. they might have structured their code so that introducing new abilities is relatively painless. or, they might just be very dedicated to making their game balance perfect.

    so “hard to implement” i’d say should be a consideration, finding a solution that is within the current existing system will always be better, but not necessarily a reason to immediately shoot something down unless it’s a pretty minor problem being fixed (or if a dev comes in and says that implementing your idea would be very difficult)

    #219955

    ExNihil
    Member

    Why would I use Bronze Level when talking about medals? Anyhow now we are in the same page.

    So, what do you think of the luck idea?

    #219960

    Bob5
    Member

    I would be careful with Brew Brothers, a little boost is nice but they’re already very good Necro supports, mainly because Nourishing meal heals both living and dead units, which is great in early game clearing (can heal both your heroes and your ghouls), while later on it gets a double heal for the undead, making them better stack healers than reanimators (although Memories of Joy and better ranged attack usually makes Reanimators the better choice in battle).

    I don’t really like giving them other ranged attacks from a flavor point of view, I’d rather give them some better medal upgrades. Other supports generally get better medal upgrades, Brew Brothers only get Cure disease at bronze and Minor Bard Skills at Gold. Minor Bard skills is nice, but it’s useless for the undead and a lot of other classes have another unit that already gets it at base (Druids get Shaman, Sorcs get Apprentice, Theo’s get Evangelist, Rogues get Bards, and neither Warlords nor Dreadnoughts tend to really focus on leveling support units anyway).

    I’d move Minor Bard skills to base or first medal. I’m not sure what you could give them at gold, maybe some buff to their Nourishing Meal at gold, boosting the morale boost, or putting Nourishing Meal on cooldown (of say, 2 combat turns) at gold.

    Personally I’m not a big fan of your extra strike on luck idea. High morale already gives extra damage through crits, and I don’t really think the role of the Brew Brother should be a damage dealer, I really see them as healing supports that can also remove nasty debuffs with Cure Disease and Dispel Magic.

    #219975

    NINJEW
    Member

    Why would I use Bronze Level when talking about medals? Anyhow now we are in the same page.

    because “baseline” isn’t a term ever used by the game to describe what you’re talking about, while both “bronze medal” and “veteran level” are terms the game uses. so an abbreviation of BL when talking about unit levels tends to create a though process of “B? what does B mean in this context? bronze, i guess? and we’re talking about unit levels, so L is obviously level. Bronze Level!” it doesn’t help that “baseline” is one word and you’re using a 2 letter abbreviation for it, which suggests 2 words.

    So, what do you think of the luck idea?

    well, being able to perform an extra attack occasionally isn’t really a massive boost when compared to the utility that elemental access gives. if i wanted to do ranged damage, i’d bring along archers or adventurers, who both outrange brew brothers. the 3 hex short range is still pretty limiting for a unit that i’d kind of want to preserve, which other archer units don’t have to deal with to provide me with my ranged damage.

    i think a big reason why other supports see a lot of use is the elemental access. supports generally serve a dual role of “support” through their use of buffs/debuffs, and “elemental archer,” since there’s generally not many better methods of targeting resistance instead of defense, which is important because there’s a lot of units with a “low res, therefore weak to elemental damage” weakpoint. generally, neither of these two roles would be enough for a support to be worth building more than 1 of if that was all the support had, but granting access to both makes supports pretty useful in a variety of situations.

    elders and white witches and mystics are examples of units who are more about the “elemental archer” aspect of being a support than the “support” aspect. i suppose another way of looking at this is, how could brew brother be pushed more towards the “support” side of things so that it’s useful, similar to how WWs and elders are useful?

    well, the previous suggests were to supercharge nourishing meal in some fashion, which i don’t really like, since it’s still a one and done action. other supports with one and done support abilities tend to also have good use as an “elemental archer” to make up for their lack of support ability past turn 1. WWs, Elders, Mystics, Human Priests, and Forge Priests all have good utility outside of the single buff they provide (high damage, high damage, good damage + doubles as a melee unit, good damage + buff grants sustain, and good damage + tanky + buff grants sustain, respectively). Blight Doctors, Orc Priests, and Storm Sisters all have reusable support abilities, so they continue to be useful as a support past turn 1, and all have good attacks as well.

    so, what support could we look at that’s more about the “support” role than the “elemental archer” role? well, the T3 supports, both of which have pretty lackluster attacks for their tier. specifically, lets look at the evangelist: no ranged attack at all. so why is an evangelist worth building? well, it has a variety of support abilities. an evangelist will have Heal, which on its own already makes the evangelist useful past turn 1, since that’s a recurring ability. beyond that, the evangelist also has several other support abilities, namely touch of faith and mark heretic. so even though an evangelist lacks any ranged damage at all, it can continue to be useful throughout the fight by continually using support abilities. touch of faith and mark heretic are both one and done abilities, but it has 2 of them, which already gives it 2 turns of usefulness before falling prey to that “waste of an army slot” problem, and even after that an evangelist can continue to use heal for the remainder of the fight.

    so, i suppose what this comes to is, perhaps brew brother could be given a second support ability? something minor that can be used multiple times over the course of a fight would be ideal, so it never just becomes a waste of space, but if given 2 good one and done abilities its support utility might outweigh the cost of having a unit that’s not doing much after turn 2.

    #220007

    So liquid courage of some kind, ninjew? That would be my favorite thing, if no one likes farm to table.

    #220008

    NINJEW
    Member

    that sounds like a good plan to me. could just be a small morale and melee strength buff

    #220013

    ExNihil
    Member

    How about bless?

    #220022

    ExNihil
    Member

    Alternatively an ability that grants a unit 40-60% physical resistance for 2-3 rounds 1*battle would be good.

    I think a luck based buff that grants a chance to perform an extra attack for every attack would be gr8: in many situations it would be able to trigger at all, and it can be shut down with morale debuffs, but whenit triggers it will range from nice to awesome. When very lucky and very happy a brew brother would have a 28% chance of performing an extra attack for every attack, potentially – but rarely – resulting in 6 attacks in a single round.

    #220029

    Hatmage
    Member

    @exnihil, that would just give brew brothers two useful turns per battle before becoming noncontributors, as would throw chicken or any other one shot ability. Granting an adjacent unit high morale and +1 or +2 melee for one or two turns on a short cooldown, however, would make the brew brother good at compensating for halfling weaknesses, but unable to stack ridiculous amounts of morale on any unit, and would let it contribute something, even if nothing was exactly 2 tiles from it. It would solve the problem of the brew brother often having nothing better to do than defend.

    It would not repair the unit’s lacking synergy with the sorcerer the way a good one-shot attack like fire spit or heavy crossbow would, and they’d still be bad in combat, great outside of it for necromancers, but they’d be great for theocrats at least.

    Chance of extra attack is something there is no code for and no code resembling in the game as it stands, and doesn’t solve the biggest problem with throw cleaver – it has less range than spitting, and still takes a range penalty. Sun spear ignores ranged penalties for a reason.

    #220042

    ExNihil
    Member

    Synergy with Sorcerer favors multiple attacks rather than 1* attacks. I agree the current attack is fucked, and have already suggested it be changed. Shouldn’t get ranged penalty for starters, hopefully will also be increased to medium range and/or be without LoS penalty.

    I doubt the luck mechanics I proposed are difficult to code, be these extra attacks or extra crits or anything else using luck asbthe determining factor. Its OFC up to the devs to decide, but this could be used for other halfling units as well, when introduced through abilities.

    #220051

    Hatmage
    Member

    Having both a crossbow or spit and the cleaver throw, preferably without ranged penalty, seems to me to be a good way to preserve some of the brew brother’s uniqueness as a unit while still letting it engage at a decent range. Coupled with an on cooldown buff of some sort and you have a support that is still skewed strongly towards supporting other troops over doing damage, but never suffers a wasted turn.

    Anything not present in the game is likely to prove difficult to code. Random chance extra attacks based on luck rate rather than inflict strength would require their own set of rules, and while my own amateur experience of programming may not be entirely adequate for gauging these things, it seems like introducing that new set of rules would be quite complex. You’d need not just an extra attack chance number, but a distinction between the extra attack and a regular attack – if the extra attack drains action points the brew brother is still capped at three total, you need to ensure it cannot itself spawn further bonus attacks, and you’d likely want it not rolling stun checks on sorc. supports for balance reasons.

    Additionally, if a brew brother had six potential attacks per turn it would be too powerful, yet hideously unreliable. Halflings have too much of their power trapped in unreliable mechanics already, and I have always advocated nerfing luck in turn for boosting them with things that can actually be planned around by both players.

    Increasing crit rate from morale is something that can be done – grey guards do it. But it encourages using brew brothers for attack only, where I think it is preferable that they be very good supports with okay attacks – still an improvement on good supports for one round with awful attacks, mind you. Also, we’ve had a fair number of complaints about grey guard crit boosting. Getting it twice on a lucky unit would be divisive at best.

    EDIT: Also, while multi hit attacks synergise better with inflict stun, high damage single shots work better with phase, which is a relatively small but real part of what makes draconian apprentices good.

    #220053

    ExNihil
    Member

    I don’t mean critical chance boosting, I mean a second critical roll. If the unit doesn’t roll a critical it will still perform a second roll and will thus have a higher chance of actually performing a critical – with and without gray guard. But if it did roll a critical, it would still perform a second roll, and if successful it will do a “double critical”, amplifying damage further by an additional x%. The second part is optional.

    Anyhow this compensates for the crappy attack by giving a buff that is in the weird spirit of halflings, which are the race that throws chickens, has a 3 hex ranged support, and an eagle that can heart elephants with its wing beat, all on top the already random(ish) luck mechanics.

    As for bless – I was proposing this as a 2 or 3 round coold-down ability. I have previously (not here) proposed alcohol based buffing to the Brew Brother, but was told by BBB there is a PG ranking problem with this. So an alternative would be a potion ability, and perhaps it could also be a bit random – giving 1 of a few possible effects, like meditate, or having one solid buff plus a secondary random effect.

    #220054

    ExNihil
    Member

    EDIT: Also, while multi hit attacks synergise better with inflict stun, high damage single shots work better with phase, which is a relatively small but real part of what makes draconian apprentices good.

    But that is AoE, which gives them potentially an equal or even greater number of stuns depending on how units are dispersed.

    I wouldn’t mind seeing here an AoE attack TBH, perhaps something blight/fire based – some sort of horrendous molotov cocktail (without alcohol lol).

    #220064

    ephafn
    Member

    A bunch of random brainstormed suggestions for the Brew Brother: (I don’t guarantee quality):
    – Serve Coffee: Resets cooldowns of the target and increases its morale. Only cooldowns that are not reset by Reload are counted (so Sprint, Heal, Wing Beat, and similar stuff).
    – Serve Coffee, mark II: Like Invigorate, but only restore half of the AP/moves of the target, which can be any race instead of just Tigran.
    – Serve Coffee, mark III: Haste the target for the current turn (double movement + ignore attacks of opportunity).
    – Light the Ovens: Fire attack to all neighbor hexes. Like the Ice Queen special, but weaker and without the special effects (except maybe Incinerate).
    – Cook Meal: Reset the Nourishing Meal ability so that it can be used again.

    #220071

    Zaskow
    Member

    – Cook Meal: Reset the Nourishing Meal ability so that it can be used again.

    I like this.

    #220072

    vota dc
    Member

    Butchering attack: single attack, when it kills you regain nourishing brains errr meal I mean.

    #220109

    NINJEW
    Member

    – Serve Coffee: Resets cooldowns of the target and increases its morale. Only cooldowns that are not reset by Reload are counted (so Sprint, Heal, Wing Beat, and similar stuff).

    this isn’t possible, i happen to know, as it’s the same reason why you can’t rapid reload a hero’s musket. the way rapid reload functions is that it actually resets every cooldown on the target, and its applicable targets only have 1 cooldown ability. since they were unable to get that functioning for heroes (which i’m 90% certain they wanted to do) and had to settle for the current workaround (hero muskets reload without having to waste a turn on a reload action) i doubt this would be functional too (there is no existing distinction between rapid reload affected abilities and non-rapid reload affected abilities)

    also this idea becomes very OP when you factor in heroes, or certain T4s, which is the reason why the cooldown reset of Rapid Reload was a problem in the first place. Call Lightning with no cooldown, anyone?

    Anything not present in the game is likely to prove difficult to code. Random chance extra attacks based on luck rate rather than inflict strength would require their own set of rules, and while my own amateur experience of programming may not be entirely adequate for gauging these things, it seems like introducing that new set of rules would be quite complex. You’d need not just an extra attack chance number, but a distinction between the extra attack and a regular attack – if the extra attack drains action points the brew brother is still capped at three total, you need to ensure it cannot itself spawn further bonus attacks, and you’d likely want it not rolling stun checks on sorc. supports for balance reasons.

    as someone who does studies programming and is currently programming professionally (internships totally count), i’d say the answer is “it depends” (every question in computer science can be answered with “it depends”). it’ll depend a lot on their own framework for adding new abilities and how flexible the coding is for certain mechanics like attacking. like i said previously, they would appear to have a relatively good framework for adding new abilities, since they kind of do that all the time, but i also can’t predict if that’s the framework being good or, quite simply, triumph being very dedicated and willing to put in a lot of extra effort for things like “razorbows need razor projectiles instead of inflict bleeding wounds.” in general, i’d say don’t assume that something that doesn’t already exist could be implemented easily: there’s the problems that you mentioned and in addition other problems that either you haven’t thought of or that are going to be coding-specific (that is, difficulties imposed by the structure of the existing code, rather than how such a mechanic would work in a vacuum). that doesn’t mean that you can’t suggest such things, exnihil’s suggestion certainly shouldn’t be shot down purely for sounding like it could be too difficult to implement, but it does mean that finding a solution that uses things which already exist in the game is preferable (and, of course, will always be preferable).

    but that’s just my somewhat-less-amateur opinion

    as for my thoughts on the idea itself: i like it in concept as a way of making brew brothers more offensively useful, but i fear that in practice it might not work out so great. the short range still means that the brew brother has to get in extremely close to use its attack, which again isn’t exactly ideal on a unit i’m hoping to keep alive like a support that’s also my source of healing, and its attack will still be lackluster damagewise, until it scores the lottery and instantly gibs an opponent. sounds to me like it’s an ability that will just serve to frustrate both sides: the user will be frustrated due to constantly putting their valuable support in risky positions only to almost never be rewarded, while the opponent will be frustrated by the 5% chance that the brewbrother has of just totally destroying any unit with its double-crit 6-shot attack (or more! as hatmage mentioned, if the bonus-attacks themselves roll for bonus attacks, you could potentially get some ludicrously large attack chains from a single unit. whether the glorious 100-cleaver-combo would actually be possible or not depends on the implementation of their rng, but if it resulted in, say, 9 attacks from a single unit with double crit, that’d be pretty frustrating to watch your t4 get wrecked by!).

    add things like double-stun-procs on sorc and the situation could get very frustrating indeed. i think i’d prefer to give the brew brother more support related abilities than giving it higher damage potential. i’m pretty sure throw cleavers is meant to be more of a backup move, something to do when the brew brother has no good supporting moves available and is already within range, in which case it’s more of a “better than sitting around doing nothing” move than a “lets roll the dice for high damage!” move. which is a reflection of its support-leaning nature: its direct damage contribution is meant to be minimal, over the high damage contribution that other supports provide.

    i’m not so big a fan of the rapid-reload-for-food idea. nourishing meal is actually a pretty powerful buff, +15 max hp is pretty great to start with, but consider its potential on regrowth units. i don’t recall if the max health bonus stacks with consecutive uses on the same unit, but even being able to give all 6 of your “just went through a regrowth shrine” units +15 hp could be an issue. i think something that’s just some minor basic stat buff would be best. or perhaps even just a reusable single target morale buff, to reflect the halfling morale mechanics

    #220131

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well tnx 😃. This was just an illustration of an idea, I’m sure there are other ways in which luck could be used offensively. The idea with crits is separate from the idea with attacks, I didn’t think of combining them together.

    As for the BB, I don’t understand why it’s attack is so limited and I think it should be improved first and foremost.

    A really useful buff would be an ability that prevents morale debuffs from working on a unit for the remainder of battle, if possible. Also, perhaps a buff that grants an extra copy of lucky – giving lucky to units that don’t have it, very lucky to lucky units, and increasing the luck chance of very lucky units even further.

    #220137

    Lykus
    Member

    A really useful buff would be an ability that prevents morale debuffs from working on a unit for the remainder of battle, if possible.

    I like this one. This could be a minor Version of the keeper spell (don’t know the name). It could be used once per battle or have a two rounds cooldown (this would make brew Brothers usefull for a longer period of time).

    #220145

    ExNihil
    Member

    On the idea of a potion like ability that grants a degree of physical resistance: It’s pretty much Asterix 😃

    #220152

    NINJEW
    Member

    so grant Solace then?

    #220153

    NINJEW
    Member

    not sure how i feel about that. being able to debuff the morale of halflings is supposed to be the big way of countering them once the Luck Machine gets rolling.

    #220162

    ExNihil
    Member

    Sure, but it could go on a timer. I was thinking of Iron Heart, which gives strong will for the entirety if battle unless it’s dispelled.

    #220164

    While racial supports are discussed id like to throw in orc shamans. Whenever i play ocs i rarely use them in orcish armies since they dont add much to a racial orc army. Their only use is the elemental damage channels, but curse does next to nothing for orcs. I think a combat buff would be much more usefull to orcs and also fit the theme of warring orcs. It would make them also a bit more unique like the other racial supports which dont share their abilities with other units.

    #220167

    ExNihil
    Member

    Curse synergiezes very well with multiple classes – theo, sorc, necro, rogue.

    I could see a buff granting extra defense or physical resistance here, or perhaps a direct damage ability that works on a voodoo theme.

    #220172

    It does synergise with classes but not overly with the race. Most of the racial supports have buffs which are generally useful independent of the class.

    #220175

    NINJEW
    Member

    what part of “-2 defense” doesn’t synergize with the melee deathcharge class

    #220176

    NINJEW
    Member

    the AP drain isn’t bad either, if you’re using it on a unit already engaged with your GS or BK. one less retaliation on fail, hit them harder on success.

    curse is a debuff that hits defenses, which is great for orcs, who are all-out offensive. plus, as an added bonus, destroys crit chance and fucks up halflings.

    #220185

    Draxynnic
    Member

    From my perspective:

    I like that the Brew Brother is a very different kind of support. It needs to get in a bit closer than other supports, but the reward is that when it DOES get to chuck cleavers at the enemy from point-blank range, it has the potential to do more damage than the others (depending on the target’s resistance versus armour). Coupled with high melee damage as well (by both halfling standards and support standards) they’re almost a melee unit themselves… and I think that’s a unique feel that’s worth keeping rather than homogenising.

    The problem is that it’s not working, and the main reason it’s not working is that they’re still squishy. They want to be close to melee, but they don’t have the durability to survive the attention that can come from being close to the action.

    So… my proposal would be to address that. Don’t change their role. Make them tougher, so they’re actually viable to do what they do.

    One way to do this could simply be to up their health (they clearly don’t live lives of fasting and ascetism as other supports might). Alternatively, now that we’ve had abilities included such as Meditation that basically represent the unit buffing itself before combat… what if the Brew Brother could have a similar ability that makes them use Nourishing Meal on themselves before a battle starts? This would effectively give them a hearty 51hp base and the ability to heal damage they might start the battle with, at the cost of not being able to gain the benefit (or as much benefit, I can’t remember if you can Nourishing Meal a unit that already has the buff) of receiving another Nourishing Meal in combat.

    (Obviously, this would have to not interfere with the BB’s ability to then give Nourishing Meal to someone else.)

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