Racial Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Racial Balance Discussion

This topic contains 991 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  Pazerniusz 7 years, 2 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 481 through 510 (of 992 total)
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  • #220190

    ExNihil
    Member

    My issue with the BB attack is not the short range as much as the straight shot (75% LoS penalty) + ranged penalty + roll against defense. These two penalties when combined with the short range mean you have a huge problem positioning units, and defense is both more common and increases more with levelling. Extra HP will not resolve this, unless the melee attack becomes the main combat function of this unit.

    Easiest solution would be to remove the LoS and/or ranged penalty. If not I guess its possible to reimagime this unit as ”the” melee based support. In this case how about granting it martial arts alongside an HP increase?

    #220192

    ExNihil
    Member

    Currently BB have 9 def. and 11 res. + 35 HP and melee strike 11. These are, melee wise, t1 traits.

    #220304

    ephafn
    Member

    Getting Martial Art would be weird. If you want them to be able to attack at close-range, then why not allow Cleavers to be used even when engaged (like the spit attacks)?

    #220307

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Curse this ‘no topics found’ forum bug we’ve been having more and more lately…

    I think a durability increase – whether hit points, the effect I proposed, improved defenses, or something else – would be sufficient.

    From the perspective of halflings, melee strike 11 is pretty good. That’s what pony riders have on base, although of course BBs have their medals spread out between ranged and melee.

    Their forte, though, is that in their ideal position – right behind a friendly melee unit, possibly one that they Nourishing Mealed on the way in – they’re able to three-shot at comparable damage to a melee unit, with no retaliations at all. They’re also competant in melee (apart from the low durability) and have the option to throw at a longer range, at the cost of reduced damage.

    Reducing their LOS penalty to Arcing Shot is probably justifiable – I’d expect heavy cleavers to be something you’d throw up to come down on the enemy at any extended range. Possibly also bump their base melee damage to 12 (after modifiers – it makes sense that, even with the halfling modifiers, they’d be able to hit with the cleavers in melee as hard as they can throw them). But those, plus a durability buff, would, I think, be enough. Don’t change their behaviour (and removing range penalties or LOS penalties entirely WOULD do that), but give them more tools to handle the risks they need to take.

    #220445

    How about first strike? They are quick with a knife, and this would let them have a unique semi melee trait. Or you could let them fire even when faced by an enemy.

    What about that, drax?

    #220461

    Bob5
    Member

    I guess firing while engaged would be a bit OP for a unit that can attack with ranged 3 times, no other unit can do that. The moves that do fire while engaged are either way lower power because they only fire once (hatchlings), or are found on higher tier units (Flame Tanks, Dragons, and in the case of Flame and Frost Tanks, that attack is the only thing that they can really do).

    Personally I think First Strike would be weird, knives are too short to do that and I also think Brew Brothers are too fat for it.

    I’d really prefer it if Brew Brothers would stay gimmicky or shaky at best when actually involved in direct combat, but enhance their supporting capabilities while behind your own lines. Give them a cooldown on Nourishing Meal on a higher medal, say Elite, make Minor Bard Skills available earlier (recruit or trooper I’d say). Now Minor Bard Skills comes too late to be viable when Halfling class units like the Apprentice and the Evangelist get it at base. Putting the Meal on cooldown would also give them more to do in combat.

    #220468

    quo
    Member

    How about putting 20% Physical Protection Reduction on Throw Cleavers, similar to Cold Protection Reduction on the White Witch blast? It would probably need to not stack with itself like it does with Witches, but it would synergize with the race, which is all Physical damage, minus minor bit of fire from Jesters.

    You could even call the proc “Cut Down to Size.” 😉

    Alternative: Make a proc that cancels Luck. Prevents “Lucky” from triggering, and target can’t roll a crit for 3 turns.

    #220475

    Ericridge
    Member

    What about placing one or two turn cooldown on nourishing meal?

    #220485

    You can’t just buff the meal because of the theocrat and necromancer. On the other hand, quos physical weakness (probably just a defense debuffing as easier) has merit.

    You could just use the warp equipment inflict, or make some new “cloven” status that gives -2 defense for 5 turns.

    #220490

    Draxynnic
    Member

    How about first strike? They are quick with a knife, and this would let them have a unique semi melee trait. Or you could let them fire even when faced by an enemy.

    As Bob5 says, being able to attack without retaliation when engaged, using what is actually a quite powerful attack, seems like it would be overly powerful. My suggestion to buff their melee damage is aimed towards essentially allowing them to do that (it really shouldn’t be more effective to throw a cleaver than to hit someone with it directly, even if you are a halfling…) while still receiving full retaliations.

    First strike could be seen as them throwing their cleavers at an attacker before engaging… but that would open a can of worms where it related to other ranged units. Arguably, irregulars with mixed weaponry – most racial irregulars, for instance – would be more eager to do that then a Brew Brother throwing their weapon just before the enemy enters melee.

    #220492

    Zaskow
    Member

    You could just use the warp equipment inflict, or make some new “cloven” status that gives -2 defense for 5 turns.

    Problem is that cleavers are non-magic and non-special weapon which can’t provide any kind of debuff.

    #220513

    Fenraellis
    Member

    You could just use the warp equipment inflict, or make some new “cloven” status that gives -2 defense for 5 turns.

    Problem is that cleavers are non-magic and non-special weapon which can’t provide any kind of debuff.

    Insomuch as Warp Equipment can be removed with Cure Disease, I agree. That being said, the spirit of his post with a similar debuff due to being struck by heavy cleavers damaging their equipment has some merit.

    A sort of ‘Inflict Sundering Blow’. Of course, that would inevitably lead in to people asking for it on other units, such as certain two-handed weapon wielders like Shocktroopers.

    #220514

    What about guard breaking projectiles (since axes and cleavers are similar)? That would make the one blow more valuable, but be limited by range.

    #220519

    Fenraellis
    Member

    That came to mind as well, as a remixed ability, rather than a new inflict entirely. Being balanced by requiring Short range on a fairly fragile unit might work.

    #220522

    Wouldn’t it have to be new, since guard breaker is only on melee? Seems mechanically useful, given halfling use of back stab and archers. It would also let them do something useful vs incorporeal (setting up jester or class unit counters).

    What do you think, drax?

    #220526

    Wallthing
    Member

    I’m not exactly being helpful to the conversation here but I’m not at all certain that I want guard breaker to be more common. Maybe if it were a physical-based inflict. Hm. Maybe all guard breaker abilities should be an inflict type ability…

    #220533

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Wouldn’t it have to be new, since guard breaker is only on melee?

    Sorry for the misunderstanding. To clarify, I meant a ranged Guard Breaker being the ‘remixed ability’, whereas something like ‘Sundering Blows’, a Physical-check Defense penalty, being a ‘new inflict entirely’. Well, new being relative, considering other Inflicts which apply a Def penalty, but still.

    #220606

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Joy. Just got logged out mid-post. Of course this means I lost what I had written…

    Short form: Conceptually, I like it, but I worry about the balance of a ranged guardbreaker. Wallthing’s compromise would probably work – three shots at close range would then have a good chance of working (so it can be used to break tireless orc crusaders, golems, and gryphon riders out of defensive stance) but you wouldn’t be able to reliably potshot someone out of guard by throwing a single max-range volley of cleavers over a wall.

    #220610

    ExNihil
    Member

    Hmm… I dislike the guard breaker idea, it’s a very problematic ability to add to the game. Perhaps its possible to add an ability that prevents a unit from entering guard mode? A debuff like “expose” (just a name) that gives -2 defense or some physical weakness and prevents guarding for x rounds. Alternatively, a debuff that gives -1 defense per hit but is stackable would be very good here – going with the “sundering” idea.

    #220625

    As it would be a new ability, “inflict guard breaker” or “guard breaking projectiles”, you could easily give it a nine inflict strength, for instance. If it were just the projectiles, then you could obviate the risk by running up and smashing.

    #220658

    Bob5
    Member

    You can’t just buff the meal because of the theocrat and necromancer. On the other hand, quos physical weakness (probably just a defense debuffing as easier) has merit.

    I’m not sure what you mean by this, just because of Theocrat and Necromancer.

    #220676

    As it would be a new ability, “inflict guard breaker” or “guard breaking projectiles”, you could easily give it a nine inflict strength, for instance. If it were just the projectiles, then you could obviate the risk by running up and smashing.

    Sounds like inflict daze…

    @ Bob he meant that boosting nourishing meal would make Hafling Necros and Theocrats very powerful, to the extent that they would overshadow the other 5 Hafling classes…

    #220679

    ExNihil
    Member

    Why?

    #220694

    Zaskow
    Member

    Omg, just give these poor BB higher HP, Minor Bard skills from beginning or reloading with big cooldown Nourishing Meal and they will be fine.

    #220699

    Why?

    They would go from functional double heal to functional tipple (or perhaps more) heal if you have an AD or rogue present. Also, ex nihil, you agreed with me the first time this was mooted:

    chrysophylax páuperem wrote:
    Nourishing meal on cooldown would be ridiculous for a variety of reasons. 1). It makes non theocrats play like theocrats (heal and clear up super fast), 2). Constant double tactical healing for necro and theocrat (since they’d use different cool downs). 3). AD have revitalize, so now they could heal right quick.
    Agreed.

    So my opinion hasn’t changed (why has yours)?

    #220703

    Bob5
    Member

    Fair point, that’s why I suggested putting that cooldown on gold medal instead of Minor Bard Skills (so they start with once per battle, like now, and then get it changed to say, 2 turn cooldown at gold). They’re one of the more difficult units to level because of their fragility and lack of offensive actions, killing stuff tends to give more exp than staying in the back supporting.

    #220705

    ExNihil
    Member

    It didn’t, but I thought an explanation was in order – neither of you explained to Bob5 why, just said it would be better for theo and necro.

    #220707

    Zaskow
    Member

    They would go from functional double heal to functional tipple (or perhaps more) heal if you have an AD or rogue present.

    You can do this already using any unit with healing and AD hero/leader. Is this a big balance issue?

    #220709

    ExNihil
    Member

    Issue with Theo is more complex because of absorb pain. Anyhow, since it got a timer this means you get a double heal every 2 turns or every other turn, depending how you use it. Think that a single BB would be able to heal 35 HP in one turn on a unit AND potentially buff its base HP maximum while doing so. It’s going to be horrible, although it would help vs. Dread 🙂 Lol.

    Anyhow problem with BB is not it’s healing capacity, which is already the best around of all the supports, but rather its combat performance. I think buffing it as a support unit alone is really not good and esp. not fun at all. I would like to see a more combat active role for it, either through synergetic debuffing or through increased combat efficacy.

    #220726

    You can do this already using any unit with healing and AD hero/leader. Is this a big balance issue?

    With revitalize, you could do better than quick dash, since the second cool down is reset as well. One revitalize doubles the amount of healing possible (since you can heal/meal normally, revitalize, then heal/meal again. You can then heal/meal the next turn. And then again after one turn wait (or just more revitalize).

    Halfing theocrat and necros current big advantage is that they get one healing bonanza session (and better passive), this change (a cool down) would make it multi turn.

    Everyone else would just heal like a normal theocrat. Nourishing meal increases active hp by 30, which is better, but only 15 after a dispel, which is worse, but also has a morale boost. With a cooldown, it is better than heal.

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