Racial Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Racial Balance Discussion

This topic contains 991 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  Pazerniusz 6 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #222543

    vota dc
    Member

    You are right, just checked. Maybe medaled orc priest could have a problem, isn’t better -2 resistance since they are dual damage and their blight attack isn’t high?

    #222547

    Armored and armor piercing on the Big Beatles is fine (carapaces should count for something),

    Putting the tame troll on rg 3 would, I think, be a very good idea. It would make Goblin AD play as a true hybrid class (since they would have essentially three class units), and would be a strong buff to the necromancer. It would be a strong enough buff to preclude much other work.

    Otherwise, i think the lesser goblin units actually work pretty well as is. Potentially you could make the marauders have 32 mp (so they can swarm quickly on things), and overwhelm on a cavalry unit is quite useful. You might want to do default bleeding wounds, and predator at gold.

    #222551

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Armored and armor piercing on the Big Beatles is fine (carapaces should count for something),

    See, my only real issue with Armored are that three of the interactions with Armored would make little sense(Armor Piercing being okay):
    — Rust Strike against their carapace?
    — Enchanted Armory…
    — Solid Engineering (and actually, Great Blacksmith, come to think of it, so “four” interactions)

    For other units ‘Armored’ is actually representative of actual, well, equipped(or constructed in the case of Machines) armor.

    Potentially you could make the marauders have 32 mp (so they can swarm quickly on things)

    Hey now, giving them 28 MP is an improvement considering the past games. 😛
    Then again, Frostling Raiders…

    #222554

    May I propose then projectile resistance instead of armoured. That way the “carapace counts for something” but getting up close and personal means you can still smash it.

    They’d end up being more anti-archer than other Cavalry.

    #222556

    ExNihil
    Member

    I think projectile resistance is a bit weak here although it could work.

    @fen,

    You asked about the life drain idea for big beetle GM. In ancient Egyptian culture the dung beetle, also known as the scarab, rascal symbol of immortality and the -trans-migration of souls. The Goblin BB appears like a big version of a scarab. I’d basically want life stealing added to the big beetle mount itself at GM, so I’d want it given to this unit.

    #222558

    See, my only real issue with Armored are that three of the interactions with Armored would make little sense(Armor Piercing being okay):
    — Rust Strike against their carapace?
    — Enchanted Armory…
    — Solid Engineering (and actually, Great Blacksmith, come to think of it, so “four” interactions)

    For other units ‘Armored’ is actually representative of actual, well, equipped(or constructed in the case of Machines) armor.

    Falmer in skyrim make armor out of beetle carapaces, and tough leather from creatures has been used as armor in the real world for ages. And you’d just be improving the carapace with armor, just as the knight has a barded horse, etc.

    Rather than life stealing, I think devour corpse would work. That would make the big beetle a good necro fighter.

    #222559

    ExNihil
    Member

    Interesting! It’s not a good GM ability but I can see it working at BM for sure, and it fits very well thematically.

    #222570

    quo
    Member

    Rather than life stealing, I think devour corpse would work. That would make the big beetle a good necro fighter.

    +1

    #222571

    Hatmage
    Member

    The big beetle model has small round shields on it’s back as improvised armour, so armoured kind of fits well enough, and great blacksmith/rust strike have something to work with. It terms of abilities that fit beetles, lesser flying would be best, but we’re unlikely to get new artwork for the beetles in flight with their wings spread – I don’t think anything is modeled beneath the modified upper wings.

    #222581

    Fenraellis
    Member

    The big beetle model has small round shields on it’s back as improvised armour, so armoured kind of fits well enough, and great blacksmith/rust strike have something to work with.

    I… guess that’s technically true, although it doesn’t really play into being struck from any angle that isn’t the back, which is technically more alluding to a “protected-from/immune-to Flanking bonus damage, but not from being Flanked” effect.

    Falmer in skyrim make armor out of beetle carapaces, and tough leather from creatures has been used as armor in the real world for ages. And you’d just be improving the carapace with armor, just as the knight has a barded horse, etc.

    The guy above has a slightly more relevant point, since you are referencing using the carapace of a dead beetle, not enchanting/smithing enhancements onto a still living creature.

    Projectile Resistance could easily work, though, since the Goblin itself is small relative to the overall unit, and projectiles bouncing off the carapace if struck at a bad angle is reasonable.

    Consume Corpse is a neat idea, too. If only it was a free action, to eat on the move, eh? 😛
    I think it would make more sense than Life Stealing, at least.

    #222598

    Gloweye
    Member

    Nonsense (plz delete)

    #222649

    Draxynnic
    Member

    Untouchable: This is a weak-ass irregular unit but it has an effective attack against non-blight resistant units and is a good counter to many t1/2 magical origin creatures. What I would have liked is to see this unit becoming more Kobold like in the way it levels, to balance out its extreme blight dependence. Since it has Inflict Noxious Vul. at recruit, if this is changed it will be good as is, if not it would be good to change its attack to half physical / half blight to give goblin players more viability without blight doctors, e.g. Goblin-WL for example. The excuse for this is the acidic element of the attack.

    I’ve seen people say that with RG1, Untouchables become the best irregular. Yes, they’re squishy, but they have an effect that discourages enemy non-goblins from getting too close to them (which they can also use offensively), they can freely use their ranged attack while engaged, and since their ranged attack goes against resistance rather than defence, against targets without blight resistance it will usually do more damage.

    Certainly, I wouldn’t be inclined to change their ranged attack. Thematically, it’s a mix of spit, pus, phlegm, and other undesirables that don’t have any physical impact to speak of but which will poison or infect the target.

    Marauder: This is a sub-par infantry unit, with 10 melee strike, which is very very weak. It’s leveling is good with BM Volunteer and Inflict Bleeding Wounds at GM, and both Shield and Demolisher are nice, but I don’t see a reason why this unit will have such a sub-par melee strike. I think it should get a small buff to its attack to make it in-line with other t1 infantry, perhaps +2 blight damage would work, if not physical damage will do the trick. Alternatively it could get 2 slayer traits to do this, maybe undead slayer to compensate for the Goblin blight dependency, and animal slayer, for the very same reason.

    All other shielded tier 1 infantry with the exception of dwarves have base 10 physical damage (frostlings get shifted by Frost Weapons). Axemen have a special extra there, but note that marauders also have an extra in having an extra point of defence than is the norm for unarmoured tier 1 infantry.

    Thus, I wouldn’t be inclined to give them extra damage, blight or otherwise. Slayer for things that often encroach on goblin territory that poisons don’t help much against (spiders, snakes, dwarves…) is something I could see and have proposed myself, however.

    I find the emphasis of the graphics and concept weird since you oppose Boar Riders getting polearm on account of them not using the weapon they are depicted as actually using.

    My objection towards polearm based purely on the weapon model comes from a simple source: I know how polearms actually worked.

    The effectiveness of polearms against cavalry is based on much more than the simple fact of the weapon. It requires bracing the weapon against the ground or some other solid surface, with the point at an appropriate height to impale mount or rider as cavalry charges in. Strictly speaking, in fact, the polearm mechanic is highly simplified – it should really only apply when First Strike negates a charge. It’s also based on being able to present oncoming cavalry with a sufficiently dense wall of spearpoints that oncoming cavalry simply can’t get past without getting impaled by one or another (and in fact, historically even the best-trained warhorses usually refused to try…).

    Obviously, flyers weren’t part of medieval warfare, but for a unit flying with wings, it’s likely the same principle – a wall of points that’s near-impossible to get through without having their wings shredded in the process.

    Cavalry… simply can’t do either of these things, certainly not with the dwarf poleaxes we are shown. They’re too short to be braced against the ground, and even if they could be, a mounted soldier can’t keep the polearm as stable as one on foot. Particularly since, unlike the Deepguard, they’re shown wielding the weapon in one hand, and there’s not really a practical way it can be held two-handed without further compromising their stability (there’s a reason that couched lances held one-handed was the standard even after shields became obsolete: at most you might be able to rest the other hand on top of the lance to give it a little extra guidance, but wielding a weapon in two hands while mounted is awkward on multiple levels). And cavalry simply can’t pack together enough to generate the ‘wall of points’ required for the defensive benefits of a pike square.

    Black Knights are dodgy enough, and that’s been justified in part by the spearpoint being longer and having a shape that makes it suitable for jousting and for really tearing up a wing membrane… but mostly by the idea of Black Knights having a feeling of rivalry with other cavalry, including regular Knights, that leads them to focus on learning how to demonstrate their superiority against other cavalry.

    There’s more to the ‘polearm’ and ‘pike square’ markers than just the weapon. The weapon also needs to be being used in a manner that will achieve the additional effect against cavalry and flyers. Deepguard do (although even there it’s borderline, since they have the shortest polearms of anyone except possibly Chargers), but the Boar Riders appear to be using it more like a combination lance/axe than as a polearm.

    A similar argument applies to monster hunters: they use two-handed swords, so they should have Overwhelm, right? Except that their training is on how to use those swords to kill monsters, not to batter down shields and polearms. It’s not just the weapon that matters – it’s also how it’s used.

    No need to change the model – it may be the same weapon, but there’s a world of difference between how cavalry would use a weapon like that and how a densely-packed unit of foot troops would use it.

    The point of the defender proposal here is to make this irregular unit, with melee based attack only, very useful. All the traits you proposed are offensive, and that is very problematic for such a weak unit. I don’t know about yourself but I don’t like sacrificing my units, and that is what will happen often if they are used as guard breakers.

    And as noted above – they’re armed with picks, a big, heavy tool intended for breaking things that don’t move. They’re also essentially a civilian militia. Just where in their equipment or training are they going to become excellent defenders?

    I should note, though, that in my mind, being made a melee unit would come with buffs to their base stats. Not as tough as Axemen, naturally, but nonetheless more on the model of Cheetahs (so, probably at least a few more hit points and an extra point of defence, bringing it to 10). However, the unit would obviously still need a tactical role (as cheetahs have through Pounce) and I think Guard Breaker is fitting – conceptually, it can represent the prospector undermining the enemy’s footing or simply having a weapon that, while slow, is one that the enemy really doesn’t want to let out of their sight. Tactically, it allows prospectors to be combined with other units by having the prospectors break guard mode (ideally receiving as few retaliations as possible) so other units can attack.

    There may be other ways to give them a tactical niche, but this one doesn’t involve any new abilities.

    and much, much better off for Armored Big Beetles, and neither of those are too likely to happen(except maybe, just maybe the Big Beetles).

    Most of the things that key of Armoured assume crafted armour rather than a shell, however. If Big Beetles need extra defense, I’d be inclined to just give them extra defence – it’s a unit that thematically shouldn’t benefit from the dreadnought synergies, crystal trees, and so on because it’s not wearing any armour to be improved/made more cheaply/whatever.

    #222704

    Hatmage
    Member

    @draxynnic: I prefer overwhelm to guard breaker on prospectors – guard breaker only works if you are attacking an opponent who is ready for you – exactly the sort of opponent whose head you’ll struggle to stove in with a pickaxe which, while capable of splitting stone, is not a maneuverable weapon. Overwhelm incentivises flanking when possible, as shield almost cancels it out from the front and polearm usually goes hand-in-hand with first strike. And sneaking up to flank someone is going to circumvent the unresponsive and unwieldy nature of a mining pick rather nicely.

    Also, with dwarves being, in previous games, the original berserkers, their total lack of overwhelm infantry in this one is unusual. Having miners as a lower tier berserkeresque troop with a sideline in siege warfare would fit fairly nicely with their lore tendency to take their shirts off in rage and throttle foes to death with their beards, no?

    #222705

    The guy above has a slightly more relevant point, since you are referencing using the carapace of a dead beetle, not enchanting/smithing enhancements onto a still living creature.

    I’m pretty sure an insects carapace is the already dead layer that sits on top protecting things, so it would be the same thing.

    The effectiveness of polearms against cavalry is based on much more than the simple fact of the weapon. It requires bracing the weapon against the ground or some other solid surface, with the point at an appropriate height to impale mount or rider as cavalry charges in. Strictly speaking, in fact, the polearm mechanic is highly simplified – it should really only apply when First Strike negates a charge. It’s also based on being able to present oncoming cavalry with a sufficiently dense wall of spearpoints that oncoming cavalry simply can’t get past without getting impaled by one or another (and in fact, historically even the best-trained warhorses usually refused to try…)

    Even more technically, the polearm has two elements. The first is leverage, in that a long spear allows a person to strike with greater force than a shorter one. This is a net advantage for foot over cavalry, as a foot man can have a larger spear than a cavalry person (since they have to extend some behind them for balance on the horse, and the foot man usually points it flat or up, whereas the cavalry points it flat or down).

    Of course, lances are longer than the foot spears of men and women fighting duel like combat with naginatas, glaives or other things, but shorter than 15 or 18 foot pikes.

    The second element is the impact of the pike square on horse and rider. The first part is, as you mentioned, the fact that horses will shy away from charging into a too dense mass of persons (although it should be mentioned that this is still charging into the small gaps between persons that allowed fighting, retreats, water to be brought up, etc). Not that this is a 100% solution: horses and men (especially heavily armored ones) have broken pike squares even head on, and a man on horseback can still fence with a long spear (the byzantines, for instance, used the lance as a fencing weapon) stabbing at the faces and heads of foot soldiers.

    The second part is that big heavy pikes are designed so they don’t snap when engaging a well mounted person (the shock of the charge could break or bend spears without really hurting the rider). When the momentum of the charge slows, then the chief advantage of heavy cavalry (mobility and heavy armor at the same time) dissipates, and the infantry can concentrate more to overwhelm individual horsemen.

    Otherwise, i guess projectile resistance is fine on the beetle.

    #222710

    Fenraellis
    Member

    I’m pretty sure an insects carapace is the already dead layer that sits on top protecting things, so it would be the same thing.

    So you’re going to remove it from the Big Beetle, enhance it with engineering, then reattach it? 😛

    #222714

    ExNihil
    Member

    Armored and armor piercing on the Big Beatles is fine (carapaces should count for something),

    I agree. The question how much thematic sense it makes vis-a-vis the graphics seems unimportant to me, it could easily be some kind of reinforcement that enhances the carapace without being depicted par se in the graphics, and/or using metarials that appear similar to it in color. Enchantment could easly be done by etching runes on the carapace itself and so forth. Armoring doesn’t necessary need to be based on metals, and DN gets its bonus from being an industrialist, harnessing steam to boost its production speed and so forth in mechaninzed factories.

    Point is it could be argued both ways, and I see a clear advantage in giving Goblin at least a single armored cavalry unit – both to open it up to MCU upgrades, and esp. to boost the DN synergy. OFC this could also be the Warg Riders.

    Putting the tame troll on rg 3 would, I think, be a very good idea. It would make Goblin AD play as a true hybrid class (since they would have essentially three class units), and would be a strong buff to the necromancer. It would be a strong enough buff to preclude much other work.

    I’m glad you agree, I didn’t think on the AD synergy here TBH, but rather on the general gameplay of Goblins, which offers a different optimum. Problem with RG4 as it currently is that Trolls are excellent units, at some stages of the game, but being able to push out a Monster t3 unit at such late game stages is rather marginal IMO, esp. when considering that this RG upgrade doesn’t, actually, upgrade any existing racial unit which the player might already field and requires a new production.

    Otherwise, i think the lesser goblin units actually work pretty well as is. Potentially you could make the marauders have 32 mp (so they can swarm quickly on things), and overwhelm on a cavalry unit is quite useful. You might want to do default bleeding wounds, and predator at gold.

    32MP would be a good start, but I think it really a bigger combat impact- it has the lowest attack of any t1 infantry unit period, and in comparison to the other axeman infantry units it has much less impressive perks and abilities.

    Thus, I wouldn’t be inclined to give them extra damage, blight or otherwise. Slayer for things that often encroach on goblin territory that poisons don’t help much against (spiders, snakes, dwarves…) is something I could see and have proposed myself, however.

    This boost could be indeed through slayer traits, I’d put there undead slayer and/or animal slayer, which will both make it a better all round unit, and more interesting at that.

    I’ve seen people say that with RG1, Untouchables become the best irregular. Yes, they’re squishy, but they have an effect that discourages enemy non-goblins from getting too close to them (which they can also use offensively), they can freely use their ranged attack while engaged, and since their ranged attack goes against resistance rather than defence, against targets without blight resistance it will usually do more damage.

    Well, ppl are strange as the song goes. Disgusting Stench really doesn’t stop the opposing cavalry from alpha striking untouchables. They can spit when engaged, like all spitting creatures do iirc – example being hatchlings among the irregulars, but they are also tied to blight, which is rather less effective against a wider range of creatures. Esp. undead creatures and Lost Souls pose a problem, to which hatchlings actually offer an excellent answer. With RG1 they become better, esp. with Sprint, but this is at the cost of RG1. Compare this with the Human RG1 which gives Throw Net to Civic Guard and I think it is rather sub-par. Sure it makes them into good flankers, but the utility of t1 irregulars is quite limited in its time-frame, and the classes that actually boost irregulars have better options in class IMO. I wouldn’t use these irregulars with WL t1 irregular swarms, for Rogue you got a better option with Scoundrel that also evolves, and with DN you use Engineers for this role.

    Why I suggest this RG1 work on Marauders? Because every race needs to have a useful infantry unit IMO, for class synergies – Marauders will open a better Theocrat synergy, enhance the Rogue synergy and boost the WL and Necro synergies here.

    What I suggest is that RG1 give Marauders some HP and Disgusting Stench, or perhaps Projectile Resistance and Disgusting Stench + some HP. Making this unit, after upgrade, into a top tier-1 infantry.

    My objection towards polearm based purely on the weapon model comes from a simple source: I know how polearms actually worked.

    No need to change the model – it may be the same weapon, but there’s a world of difference between how cavalry would use a weapon like that and how a densely-packed unit of foot troops would use it.

    Well, the Boar-Rider is a sub-par cavalry unit as is, and I think it needs to be improved. Making this cavalry unit anti-cavalry / anti-flyer makes sense to me, since this is a race that needs to counter much more powerful cavalry units quite often. Both Polearm and Pikesquare will have a lot of tactical utility IMO, and I think that for the vast majority of players – who are either enjoying fantastic, and less intellectual, immersion, or simply enjoy the tactical elements these will be good additions. If not then the obvious ability that should appear here is Overwhelm, which appears on Boars but not on Boar riders – since the overall weight of the charging animal is actually increased here, I think this could be a good, relatively sensible addition that will boost their combat effectiveness and make them more interesting. A good alternative here would be Guard Breaker, which fits IMO and will give them a good something respective of other cavalry units and their tactical role. Also Devastating Charge might be good here, or if not than AP – as par the suggestions to boost boars themselves in the AD Summons thread.

    And as noted above – they’re armed with picks, a big, heavy tool intended for breaking things that don’t move. They’re also essentially a civilian militia. Just where in their equipment or training are they going to become excellent defenders?

    I should note, though, that in my mind, being made a melee unit would come with buffs to their base stats. Not as tough as Axemen, naturally, but nonetheless more on the model of Cheetahs (so, probably at least a few more hit points and an extra point of defence, bringing it to 10). However, the unit would obviously still need a tactical role (as cheetahs have through Pounce) and I think Guard Breaker is fitting – conceptually, it can represent the prospector undermining the enemy’s footing or simply having a weapon that, while slow, is one that the enemy really doesn’t want to let out of their sight. Tactically, it allows prospectors to be combined with other units by having the prospectors break guard mode (ideally receiving as few retaliations as possible) so other units can attack.

    Well, IMO if the ranged attack is removed from prospector the compensation should be quite serious, and Guard Breaker will certainly *not* do this. To use guard breaker the unit needs to be used offensively in melee, which for a t1 irregular unit can be catastrophic, and will almost always result in serious damage in the very least. Cheetah have a no-retaliation attack ability + Inflict Bleeding Wounds + 32MP and Athletics, which makes them very useful when combined with their hightened defense, this kind of combo is impossible for prospector. The minimum is Defensive Strike and a boost to their melee strike, HP and defense, but this will still make them problematic and awkward to use in combat.

    As I said, I take the kind of weapon used with a grain of salt, and to me the tactical role and balance of the unit is more important than its concept, although I respect the input on pickaxes, this simply means that this unit should be crap in melee through and through and probably throw stones as is, which is really sub-par combat-wide. Yet, since this is a fantastic game, and a game in which the absurd is actually part of the game, i.e. Throw Chicken, I do think that a bunch of hardened dwarfs standing guard and prepared to strike could boost their defense, hence defender – which will give them a very distinct tactical role and a unique one at that among the irregular t1s.

    Alternatively I would like to see their melee strike nerfed, and their ranged attack replaced: I can see them using some sort of explosive, on account of their “prospecting”, dealing physical AoE with some sort of attached debuff. The flash bang graphics could be used here easily, and it could actually be a version of flash bang. This will dramatically boost them as irregulars, making them both more interesting and with a more defined combat utility.

    #222727

    Overwhelm makes more sense here.

    #222731

    ExNihil
    Member

    I’m pretty sure an insects carapace is the already dead layer that sits on top protecting things, so it would be the same thing.

    So you’re going to remove it from the Big Beetle, enhance it with engineering, then reattach it? 😛

    Well, actually no. Exoskeletons are not living tissue, much like the hooves of horses or fingernails are not living tissue. Think of Horseshoes here – this is hardened matieral on which a metallic object is attached using nails to give it some measure of protection. The same can be true of Big Beetle with ease, and it doesn’t need to look or be plate armor but a range of other materials. For the armored trait to be there it doesn’t need to coat the entire unit, as some racial variants show. If there were grades of armor traits it would be easy to add to this unit Light Armor and not Heavy Armor, or any other suchlike differentiation, but given that some Orc units have Armored, and are clearly described as using rough leather hides as the base material, or that forge priests have some sort of chainmail armor on them rather than place, I see no problem with this conceptually.

    You can argue against it, but it is also possible to argue for this – I don’t think this is impossible conceptually.

    #222754

    ExNihil
    Member

    Ok, I will do a quick Human break-down, which will allow me to finish this monstrous thread 🙂 and nicely depart from the forum again to my PhD work, while settling my OCD tendencies in doing so.

    Humans used to be crap in Vanilla, then they got better – much much better. I’d say they are the best Vanilla race ATM, and are certainly top-tier with a few classes, while having a wide range of abilities.

    The core racial package of humans is very good for all classes pretty much, +10 production is a huge buff that makes a big difference in terms of development and unit production, making Humans second only to Goblins in their capacity to spam units, and when combined with DN or WL production upgrades they are rarely matched (Goblin WL is faster). Their water affinity through mariner is a very big boost in Island and Continent maps, making this a top race on these maps through and through. Their only negatives is their reliance on spirit for their supports, which can be shut-down, and their no-flying, for which they compensate by being by far the best cavalry race, with a t2 cavalry that evolves into the t3 knight and multiple RG upgrades that make this evolution better.

    Saying that there is an issue with humans, in fact two issues: Most of their core race units are bland and really rather mediocre, exception being the evolving t2 cavalry, which is bland but evolves into an excellent t3, Priests, which are excellent, and Knights, which are my favorite t3 units. The second issue is their very strong reliance on cavalry and the fact that a large portion of their RG upgrades are geared towards the cavalry evolution strategy, which is itself rather IMBA in my opinion. Of course both of these are not necessarily seen as issue, but I would prefer seeing a more versatile panoply of units and a somewhat reduced emphasis on cavalry, which IMO really creates an issue with WL.

    Units:

    Civic Guard: In itself Civic Guards are bland and rather mediocre t1 irregular units. Since they are boosted with Throw Net on RG1, which is very good, I don’t think they need addressing. The only thing I might like added is a BM ability upgrade that will fit ’em.

    Longswordman: This is again a rather bland infantry unit. It has Overwhelm which gives it a distinct combat role vs. pikes and shielded, and standard stats all-round. I would like to suggest this unit receives coup-de-grace on BM or on GM instead of Inflict Bleeding Wounds, which will open a possible synergy for it with civic guards when RG1 military is unlocked and picked-up. Conceptually this goes well with the theme of the unit IMO.

    Archer: Again a blend unit, it is a rather sub-par archer unit until it is levelled to GM, which is fairly difficult to do with this unit, and not really worth the investment. I would like to see Blessed Arrows moved to BM and another upgrade introduced at GM, or Blessed arrows at recruit even with an increased unit price.

    Halberdier: A so-so pike unit, it has overwhelm which makes it good vs. other pike units, and the obvious counters to draconian chargers with regrowth. Since Longswordman has overwhelm already though this is problematic. I would like one of these two units to lose the overwhelm, I don’t care which, and the other to be made more significant in its respective combat role. Again there might be place here for an extra ability as is – either on BM or recruit, and I think AP should be moved to BM and a new GM ability introduced. Throw in some ideas!

    Priest: This is a very good support unit, qua support, its Bestow Iron Heart is really good – both minor combat heal, sustain buff, and giving a unit Strong Will, which immunizes against spirit and all spirit inflicts including mind control. This is very powerful, but it makes human vs. human matchups with supports quite ridiculous as both sides can become immune to spirit. The spirit ray attack is powerful but problematic because it is easy to shutdown and doesn’t work inherently against machines, and here there is no weaken OFC. I hope that there will be a bypass for this through the classes that use supports, for Theo, Necro, Sorcerer and perhaps even AD – although this is the class that needs this the least. I don’t think this unit needs to be touched at all, although a second label of some sort that opens it up to MCU upgrades would be a nice addition.

    Cavalry: A blend unit with evolve to t3 knights, can’t be changed IMO.

    Knights: Very god t3 unit, high HP, very good defense + shield and acceptable resistance. Devastating charge and Monster Slayer are very good IMO, Dragon Slayer is more situational but makes Knights a very powerful counter to Draconians. When leveled it gets Inflict Crippling Wounds and Strong Will on GM, all in all a very powerful package with excellent class synergies. I think this unit is in a perfect place right now, wouldn’t touch it at all.

    Classes:

    AD: An OK synergy. The production bonus is very useful here, and Hunter with water concealment and throw net is an excellent variant, even if not top-tier. Shaman is generic, and I think it could receive a human variant here. Throw some ideas!

    DN: Very strong synergy. Most human core race units are armored, except Priests, which makes for an excellent synergy with the DN production buffs, these combine wonderfully with the racial bonus and the RG economic upgrades that unlock in later stages. DN also OFC synergizes with cavalry, and humans offer both evolving armored t2 cavalry, and the only armored t3 cavalry unit, which makes this a top-tier DN combo. Human Engineer receives Throw Net, which is very useful for this unit – which is OFC primarily a support unit, albeit being irregular.

    WL: IMO this is an IMBA combo, not because it can’t be countered in game, but because it is so attractive to WL ATM that it makes the WL units themselves less attractive. WL Human cavalry evolution is very powerful, the combination of a sustain buff, Conqueror and the human RG2/3 military upgrades as well as the RG1 on irregular units really make this into a power-combo that is hard to match. WL also OFC benefits from the human production bonus, and on Island maps from the mariner bonus.

    Class unit-wise Humans are not very interesting. Berserkers and Monster Hunters are generic, which is a shame IMO, and I would like them to be more interesting. Mounted Archers are excellent with Blessed Arrows at recruit, which is very good. They don’t benefit though from the Human RG3 giving cavalry extra damage, because they are mounted but not cavalry. Warbreed is swimming, which is very useful, and Manticore Rider gets Devastating Charge, which is nice, as well as benefits from the RG3 upgrade.

    Rogue: An OK synergy again, the production bonus is useful but the core race units don’t offer very much here. Class units are so-so, Scoundrels with Throw Net are a good variant, Bards are generic, Assassins with Swimming and Water Concealment are very good and Succubus is generic. All in all this is not a very good synergy at all, probably the worst one for humans, although not the worst Rogue at all. I would like to see racial variants here, some have already been discussed in the Rogue Balance Discussion thread, but I think we can also discuss them here. Bards esp. seem to be to be fitting for a variant here.

    Theocrat: This is a controversial synergy. On the one hand Theo gets some serious spirit damage on some of its units with this variant, on the other hand it is more spirit damage for a spirit damage based class and priests are here as redundant as they get – their heal is nice but Theo doesn’t need it, and the strong will buff is really not that crucial for Theo. So this one is also problematic. Still, the cavalry evolution strategy is very good for Theo, who can go racial through Order of the Knights Templar, and has a distinct advantage in levelling units due to its unparallaed access to heal and sustain increases.

    Class unit-wise Martyr gets Spirit Blast (11 spirit), which IMO is really situational and quite problematic. It doesn’t benefit martyr evolution at all, but does make it an excellent anti-undead / anti-magical origin unit, but that is really not what it is needed for. I would much prefer seeing here something else, but since this has already been introduced I doubt it will be changed. Crusader is generic, which is a shame – I think human crusaders should have a variant, so throw in some ideas! Evangelists got Spirit Ray, which is very good and I think is fitting here, and Exalted got increased Exalted got increased spirit damage, which is problematic – but since I hope there will be some way to address spirit resistance for Theo, I think this could be resolved and made much better. If not I think it needs to be changed and would like some idea.

    Necromancer: This is a problematic combo. I don’t know if Bestow Iron Heart can be used on undead, if it can be used it obviously gives humans an edge – priests that can give strong will to undead creatures are very useful, even if they deal pure spirit damage and can’t boost sustain or heal in combat without tech unlock, but if it can’t (please tell me if you know) then this is very problematic indeed and I would like to see this changed, so at least the Strong Will component of this ability will work on undead. Necro can benefit from the +10 production bonus, but human units are not particularly cheap and they don’t offer very good mobility. Reanimators get +2 spirit -1 melee and get the base price, which I think is sorta ok but not very attractive. Deathbringer gets -3 blight and +3 spirit, and I think this is really not very good. I would like both class units to get something better here, so please throw in some ideas.

    Sorcerer: This is a good combo, one of the top 3 or 4 IMO. Priests offer sustain/heal which is very useful, although they can be shutdown (which I hope will be resolved in class as I wrote earlier), and they get Inflict Daze on GM, which gives Sorcerer a double stun option here, with daze being better in some ways than stun itself – if not blocked (which is OFC easier.) Apprentices are generic here, which is a shame IMO since Sorcerer has only a single class-racial unit. I would suggest a racial variant be introduced here, so throw in your ideas.

    RG upgrades:

    RG1 military gives throw net to civic guard, and I think its very good as is. RG1 econ discounts settlers, which in the current meta is broken. I dunno what the devs will do, but I think settler discount is probably too good for RG1 econ even if the settler spam meta is resolved. I would like to see it replaced both here and on tigrans with something else, perhaps you guys will have some ideas.

    RG2 military is very good, giving human cavalry Quick Learner, which OFC makes evolution quicker for all classes, and makes the WL + Conquror + RG2 military extremely powerful. I think it is Ok, although a bit on the OP side of things. RG2 Econ makes Harbors give +100pop and +15 gold, and OFC this is rather situational – it is primarily an island map bonus, and otherwise not useful. Yet when it is picked on an Island map, I think it is borderline IMBA – this is a rather huge bonus to a building you are going to build quite often, I would like to see it replaced therefore.

    RG3 military is mah, giving all human cavalry +2 physical damage. I think it is not very powerful for an RG3, in fact being RG2 strength, and since there are only 3 human cavalry units in the entire game – t2 racial cav, t3 racial cav and WL t4 manticore riders, it is really not very impressive. I would like to see it changed to something that will open a wider synergy with other classes through the buffing of other units types – other than cavalry that is. RG3 econ is really quite bad. It gives a 60% discount on watchtowers, roads and fortresses, which appears like a very good upgrade for classes that need massive amounts of roads, for example. Yet this unlocks quite late, and by this time it has little effect. I therefore propose that the current RG2 is removed completely and that this becomes the new RG2 econ, which seems to me to be a fitting niche for this upgrade.

    RG4 military gives an extra medal on all buildings that upgrade a specific unit type, which means that Humans at RG4 military can pump out very high medal units. This is excellent, but it again unlocks very late into the game and I think it is in fact of RG3 strength, so this could well be the RG3 instead of the current one, or it could be retained as RG4. RG4 Econ is extremely powerful, giving +15 production on Builders Hall, Siege Workshop and Masters Guild each, thus totaling +45 production, which with the human inherent bonus is +55 production before morale modifiers, which is a huge fucking bonus – probably the most dramatic of all RG4 econ upgrades IMO. I think it is fitting for its niche, although borderline OP here, it could well be an RG5 upgrade IMO without changing anything about it.

    RG5 military is powerful but not overly so – all Human units receive +1 resistance, +1 defense and +1 physical damage on all attacks. In actuality this translates into a good and balanced bonus, but somewhat less powerful than what other races get I’d say. It is Ok as it is. The RG5 econ increases Produce Merchandise bonus to 100% from 50%. I’d say this is very good, and could be even massive, but IMO it could well be an RG4 upgrade and exchanged with the current RG4.

    I will make another post later today or tomorrow with concrete proposals for unit modifications, but please contribute your own.

    #222756

    Oh Humans, I agree they are very solid pick with any class and amazing DN and WL.

    Longswordman get Guard Break instead of Bleeding Wounds, it was changed some time ago, it is just that the wiki still has bleeding wounds. So they do have a niche, setting charges/flanks. All human racial units are fine the way they are. It is a very balanced race at the moment to be honest. The only thing I could see it is some class units variations.

    The RG could be adressed, particularly the +45 production one.

    #222760

    madmac
    Member

    Iron Heart grants undead units the buff but not the heal. Human Necromancer is actually quite viable and has a number of good synergies.

    #222762

    Zaskow
    Member

    Their water affinity through mariner is a very big boost in Island and Continent maps, making this a top race on these maps through and through.

    Mariner is useless totally on surface.

    Civic Guard: In itself Civic Guards are bland and rather mediocre t1 irregular units. Since they are boosted with Throw Net on RG1, which is very good, I don’t think they need addressing. The only thing I might like added is a BM ability upgrade that will fit ’em.

    Civic Guard is very cheap in maintenance. Human + Rising Militia of Warlord = OP combo.

    Longswordman: This is again a rather bland infantry unit. It has Overwhelm which gives it a distinct combat role vs. pikes and shielded, and standard stats all-round. I would like to suggest this unit receives coup-de-grace on BM or on GM instead of Inflict Bleeding Wounds, which will open a possible synergy for it with civic guards when RG1 military is unlocked and picked-up. Conceptually this goes well with the theme of the unit IMO.

    Maybe, you should look at unit in game first? Longswordmen haven’t Inflict bleeding wounds on elite for a very, very long time. They have Guard Breaker instead. And they could have it on recruit to be more decent unit.
    However, I agree with you – for now they’re pretty mediocre units.

    Archer: Again a blend unit, it is a rather sub-par archer unit until it is levelled to GM, which is fairly difficult to do with this unit, and not really worth the investment. I would like to see Blessed Arrows moved to BM and another upgrade introduced at GM, or Blessed arrows at recruit even with an increased unit price.

    +1

    Halberdier: A so-so pike unit, it has overwhelm which makes it good vs. other pike units, and the obvious counters to draconian chargers with regrowth. Since Longswordman has overwhelm already though this is problematic. I would like one of these two units to lose the overwhelm, I don’t care which, and the other to be made more significant in its respective combat role. Again there might be place here for an extra ability as is – either on BM or recruit, and I think AP should be moved to BM and a new GM ability introduced. Throw in some ideas!

    They are just too generic. Like Deepguards. Maybe, Armor piercing from recruit could help them a bit? Coup-de-grace could work too.

    AD: An OK synergy. The production bonus is very useful here, and Hunter with water concealment and throw net is an excellent variant, even if not top-tier. Shaman is generic, and I think it could receive a human variant here. Throw some ideas!

    Production bonus isn’t such useful for summon class as AD is.
    Human Hunter isn’t very good, they could give Blessed Arrows on elite, instead Martial arts (which is pretty useless for archer units).
    Shamans could give Water concealment. Invisible swimming stacks (hunters + shamans) would be very useful. Shamans also could get some hybrid poison + spirit range attack (Rime fire, Bane fire) or even Spirit bolts like Draconian Shamans got Fire bolts.

    Mounted Archers are excellent with Blessed Arrows at recruit, which is very good.

    Sorry, but Human Mounted Archers aren’t excellent, they’re only good. Only one excellent Mounted Archers in game is elvish and that’s all.

    Class unit-wise Martyr gets Spirit Blast (11 spirit), which IMO is really situational and quite problematic. It doesn’t benefit martyr evolution at all, but does make it an excellent anti-undead / anti-magical origin unit, but that is really not what it is needed for. I would much prefer seeing here something else, but since this has already been introduced I doubt it will be changed.

    Spirit immunity isn’t such common as blight, for example. Spirit blast is better than throw stones, no doubts.
    Hah, it was my idea to give blast to human martyrs…

    Crusader is generic, which is a shame – I think human crusaders should have a variant, so throw in some ideas!

    1. Guard breaker.
    2. Overwhelm.
    3. Some spirit damage.
    As for me I’d like to see some special version of Human Crusaders. Attacking Crusaders with two-handled swords or Crusaders with halberds would be very interesting…

    Necromancer: This is a problematic combo. I don’t know if Bestow Iron Heart can be used on undead, if it can be used it obviously gives humans an edge – priests that can give strong will to undead creatures are very useful, even if they deal pure spirit damage and can’t boost sustain or heal in combat without tech unlock, but if it can’t (please tell me if you know) then this is very problematic indeed and I would like to see this changed, so at least the Strong Will component of this ability will work on undead. Necro can benefit from the +10 production bonus, but human units are not particularly cheap and they don’t offer very good mobility. Reanimators get +2 spirit -1 melee and get the base price, which I think is sorta ok but not very attractive. Deathbringer gets -3 blight and +3 spirit, and I think this is really not very good. I would like both class units to get something better here, so please throw in some ideas.

    This is debatable. Human Necro is solid and good combo. Deathbringer with spirit damage and spirit breaking is good anti-necro tool, also spirit protection is less common, than blight.

    RG1 military gives throw net to civic guard, and I think its very good as is. RG1 econ discounts settlers, which in the current meta is broken. I dunno what the devs will do, but I think settler discount is probably too good for RG1 econ even if the settler spam meta is resolved. I would like to see it replaced both here and on tigrans with something else, perhaps you guys will have some ideas.

    Offtopic…
    Discussed too much times – settlers meta isn’t broken, it’s just one more strategy, very expensive, risky and dangerous against skilled player. If your enemy prefers to sit on ass in his domain he just agrees with losing.
    End of offtopic…

    RG3 military is mah, giving all human cavalry +2 physical damage. I think it is not very powerful for an RG3, in fact being RG2 strength, and since there are only 3 human cavalry units in the entire game – t2 racial cav, t3 racial cav and WL t4 manticore riders, it is really not very impressive.

    This needs to be changed from “Cavalry” type of units to “Mounted” types of units, imao.

    I therefore propose that the current RG2 is removed completely and that this becomes the new RG2 econ, which seems to me to be a fitting niche for this upgrade.

    And what we will have as RG3 upgrade then?

    The RG5 econ increases Produce Merchandise bonus to 100% from 50%. I’d say this is very good, and could be even massive, but IMO it could well be an RG4 upgrade and exchanged with the current RG4.

    Hmm, it seems that you’ve never seen RG5 eco in actions. In short you need lesser amount of towns by 2 times, than enemy to effectively beat him. This upgrade makes Human WL and DN unstoppable literally.

    #222772

    Akinaba
    Member

    Human Hunter isn’t very good, they could give Blessed Arrows on elite, instead Martial arts (which is pretty useless for archer units).
    Shamans could give Water concealment. Invisible swimming stacks (hunters + shamans) would be very useful.

    +1 for both the ideas

    #222780

    Ericridge
    Member

    So I have learned that exnihil doesn’t do humans in aow3 XD

    The blandness of human units is the best thing about humans.

    I doesn’t rely on horses for humans at all. I generally prefer the gpt+pop from harbor. My picks is a mix of military/economy upgrades.

    Civic Guards went from being mediocre to being viable for the entire game and they now can survive to reach elite thanks
    to throw net.

    Longswordmen have guardbreaker on elite not bleeding wounds after eternal lords came out. This has great synergy with elite human priests.

    Human archer isn’t high elves. You need to understand that they are not high elves thus their human archers is already in a good place.
    And they’re also armored. Which means Focus chamber + enchanted armory = really tough archers! If you haven’t seen what a
    elite human archer with focus chamber can do to an debuffed manticore. Its devastating xD

    No, Halberdiers shouldn’t lose the overwhelm. Its one of things that make this unit great. It has utility against cavalry+ shielded
    infantry and pikes. They work very well with Longswordmen.

    Exnihil, tier 1 stuff only gain stuff on elite medals, nothing on bronze generally. Giving them two stuff to gain on bronze
    and elite medal would be quite a significant change.

    Elite longswordmen+Elite Human Priest synergy aside. Human priests is fantastic defenders, don’t worry about it being shut down by
    machines. Everything is supposed to have a weakness. Alot of dazes = alot of frustrated attackers.

    Human cavalry used to overrun pikes on vanilla aow3 before pikes gained their pike square. They’re fine as it is now.

    Knights is in perfect place I agree too.

    Classes:

    Only played human archdruid once, cannot comment.

    Human dreadnought as you said, is great.

    Human Warlord is imbalanced? I disagree. I defeated my friend playing cavalry specced warlord. While their cavalry
    might hit really hard.. with proper preparations, nothing cannot be overcome. Even when it’s something as basic as having three to one
    advantage. And elite knights + bloodbath striking at elite golems still have hard time. Its even more funny when you throw
    cardinal cutting into the mix and watch the knight strike at golems for 1-2 damage with blood bath up.

    Human rogues is alright. But have you forgotten about JAWS Assassins? The last I checked, they still have swimming and concealment on water.
    Which means they can strike at transports like sharks.

    Human Theocrat is fantastic! Iron heart is great asset in keeping your soldiers alive. When fighting start, you use the 20HP healing first
    then iron heart in next turn immediately as needed. Then it’s just one more turn before you can use healing again. This has
    saved alot of soldiers from dying. Not something to be underestimated at all.

    I don’t build human martyrs so no comment here.

    Human Crusaders is generic, it still gets the job done. No need for fancy tricks.

    Exalted can use armageddeon + hallowed domain + spirit breaking to really devastate spirit resistant units. Or just totally demolish those
    vulnerable. Its capable of producing big numbers when things is set up. Is just generic otherwise.

    I’ve played human necromancer. It is one of the best possible race picks for a necromancer!

    Iron heart can be used on ghouls, you just won’t get +15 hp heal. +10 production can be the difference between 1 turning a unit or
    2 turning a unit. And believe me, production on necromancer is so very crap so every bit helps. Units for necromancer works very
    great! The racial governance make a necromancer work better than all other racial necromancer!

    It has access to production boost, economy boost in racial governance. Increased production on builder hall, siege workshop and master guild
    does help! And then there is that 15 gpt and pop boost from harbors. And finally the 100% merchandise for cities!

    RG Upgrades:

    RG1
    Throw Net > Settler discount. Don’t be crazy. Throw net = trapped manticores who otherwise would tear your civic guards to pieces.

    RG2
    Quick learner is alright but I prefer Harbor. It’s useful on continents too. I can have 10-20 harbor cities or more if given enough
    time on XL maps. And it helps human cities grow quicker!

    RG3
    Cavalry upgrade is alright but the economy upgrade is fantastic for XL maps. I’m always starting in middle of nowhere with roads and such
    which makes building roads a necessity! I also construct plenty of forts and watch towers plus bridges. Dreadnoughts really LOVE this RG.
    I JUST LOVE IT! I COULD WRITE IT A LOVE LETTER IF I COULD.

    RG4
    Double medal upgrades is great as you said. And Hall of chivalry does apply to golems which means elite golems right out the gate which
    help alleviate the pain of nerf from tier 3 to tier 2 status plenty.

    The production is amazing as you said, its a pick that will allow you to 1 turn juggernauts with correct land generation in a cheerful
    metropolis. And it turns horrible locations into decent locations.

    RG5
    Military upgrade has that excellent bland taste which is a trait of human units XD And economy upgrade, son, I’ve had metropolises producing
    over 330 gpt on merchandise. It must stay at RG5. Because one metropolis = ten tier 4s. That’s ten ironclads or juggernauts knocking on your
    door. It is worthy of RG5 tag.

    edit: tl’dr version of racial governance will allow you to make your human empire feel like it is the Commonwealth that you see in the campaign.

    #222785

    ExNihil
    Member

    Suggestions
    LSM: AP at BM or Guard Breaker at BM and AC in GM or lose overwhelm, gets AP at recruit and Inflict Crippling wounds at BM + Guard Breaker at GM.

    Halberdier: Coup de Grace at BM

    Hunter: +1 for the Blessed Arrows on elite instead of martial arts idea

    Shaman: Water concealment is problematic here – invisible swimming stacks might be IMBA and its problematic respective of Rogue. Are there other ideas? How about 50% spirit damage on their ranged attack?

    Berserker: Swimming? If not how about Guard Breaker? or Inflict Crippling Wounds.

    Monster Hunter: Throw Net at recruit – keeps the same price

    Bard: Throw Net?

    Succubus: Zaskow proposed Inflict Spirit Breaking, to which I say +1, if not how about Strong Will at GM?

    Reanimator: Rime Fire? If not then at least give it extra spirit damage on ranged instead of melee.

    Apprentice: costs 25 extra production units or more, gets Inflict Spirit Breaking, or perhaps Energy Drain.

    Crusader: Guard Breaker would be great, overwhelm will do.

    #222793

    Human hunters are fine as is, as the net is ok in auto, and really fun in manual for pbem, so i think that is a fine thing at the moment.

    As for the shaman, I might just give it strong will from default as the special thing.

    #222794

    Fenraellis
    Member

    Others have already mentioned it but:

    (Human Necromancer)

    Heal Undead Helps to keep starting Cavalry, and as mentioned Iron Heart does everything except the heal effect. Personally I’ve almost always started with 2 Cavalry and 2 Priests, meaning I’ve quickly got 2 Knights and 2 Elite Priests.

    As for Spirit damage on Necromancer class units. You can’t afford to forget about Inflict Despair. It might not mean much on the Reanimator’s melee attack, but it can be quite nice on the Death Bringer. They get the Blight damage back with Power Ritual anyway. Also, the Death Bringers get Spirit Breaking at Veteran, don’t forget about that.
    Innate Strong Will on Knights, and granted Strong Will on select units(say, a Reaper in the party of an Archlich Necromancer for 0% base Spirit Protection/Weakness, for example?) is really quite nice.

    I still like Frostling and Halfling more for particular reasons, but Humans are very nice at Necro.

    #222796

    ExNihil
    Member

    Now now,

    @ericridge,

    I play and have played a great deal of humans, but I was not aware LSM got Guard Breaker. OH NO, what a horrific mistake! @zaskow, since I do most of the hard work here, your irritation is a bit ridiculous, get off your lazy ass and do a breakdown when I ask if anyone wants to do one and then I won’t need too, alas when you did there were a few mistakes there, but I can’t recall being so irritated with you. @ericridge, you are wrong about t1 unit not having more abilities, should I mock you? Go, open up the tome of wonders, DB or wiki and take a look in Frostlings, Goblins, Tigrans and some other races.

    As for Necro, I already wrote plain and simple in the Necro Balance Discussion that this is the class with which I have the least experience, and have explicitly asked for some input in that thread. I thank @madmac and @Fen for giving substantial and to the point answers, you guys might learn a few things from them.

    I am tired of this forum, and as I wrote in that post I am about to retire again, it’s a shame it is done in the usual kind of irritation, but that is only fitting.

    #222800

    ExNihil
    Member

    Ok, for RG upgrades

    RG1 military is good as is. The RG1 Econ is a bit too powerful IMO, and yes @ericridge, there are things you don’t understand. The return on settlement is insane even without the current MP meta being what it is, which you don’t seem to understand or know, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there. I would like seeing the econ one replaced with something else. Example for proper strength being the Draconian discount on shrines, so perhaps a discount on some t1/2 building would be good. I can see a discount on builders hall here being very good but still more balanced, or alternatively perhaps an upgrade to store house, say Store House gives +30 pop and costs -25 gold.

    RG2 military is powerful but good as is IMO – the IMBA here won’t be resolved I believe. RG2 Econ is too situational – it is either useless or OP, which isn’t a good balance IMO. I would like seeing it removed entirely. Instead I propose that the current RG3 econ, which is a bit on the weak side for RG3, will be moved to RG2 econ.

    RG3 military is really sub-par for an RG3, and it impacts class wise only WL. I think it is bad as is and would like seeing it replaced. I think a boost to human Infantry + Irregulars would be good here, or a boost to support units. Perhaps a boost to Bestow Iron heart would be good here? Say Iron heart heals +10 HP and works on undead units as well? RG3 econ could give benefits for the racial t3 building, say gold, morale and pop, alongside a price discount. Or perhaps something that boosts Great Temples – say great temples give +15 mana + 10 RP? For both I would like something that affects AD/Sorcerer/Rogue/Theo – i.e. support units and mana, which will make the synergy here a bit more versatile.

    RG4 econ should be reduced to +10 per production building instead of +15

    RG5 military should be upgraded a bit or localized – currently its rather weak but affects all humans with a straight buff, perhaps it would be better if it affected only some unit types but was a bit more substantial?

    #222808

    Hatmage
    Member

    Regarding Human Longswordsmen and Halberdiers: Halberds are excellent, being one of the only human units that get’s their signature trait at baseline (compare human cavalry, who get their signature strong will after their second gold medal, or blessed arrow archers). Overwhelm is the core of the unit, and cheap pike superiority does as much to make humans the cavalry race as knighting cavaliers does (@Ericridge is on record as angry that humans evolve IIRC, but knights really were promoted in the field sometimes).

    Longswords should also keep overwhelm. Guard breaker at elite is good for them, offering synergy with dazing, nets, multichannel archers and devastating charge, but before that what they have is +1 defence. Something very minor, like inflict bleeding or projectile resistance on bronze, or armour piercing resistance (angled plate is going to outperform chain), might work, but +1 defence is already pretty good.

    On Human Priests: Dispel helps with some sources of strong will, but giving the priest a weak throw stones attack when he has nothing else to do could help him. He’s already good, but stoning heretics would suit his theme. Against machines it’d be a largely symbolic gesture, but a priest-magician is supposed to make symbolic gestures.

    On Archers: Armoured archers have terrible defence, excepting the projectile resistant, deals full damage when his foes do half longbowman. Getting a full +2 compared to nudist equivalents for being armoured would be good, and if any human unit should have coup-de-grace, it’s the archer. Not that his melee attack is worth much, it’s just a nice reflection of what historical archers did with maul and misericorde to downed foes. Alternately, but still stealing abilities from tigrans, I’d be interested in seeing these guys with bronze-medal athletics.

    Regarding Cavalry: It would make sense for gold cavalry to get devastating charge rather than inflict bleeding wounds. It would be nice if pre-strongwill knights had some spirit resistance, though I’d not give more than 40%.

    Racial governance stuff: Throw net is good, but could be a medal ability to much the same effect. Cheaper settlers are OP, and settling mechanics as a whole are loathsome to me.
    Faster Cavalry Evolution doesn’t excite me compared to the actual stat bonuses most races unlock, I think RG3 could be put here, though I’d love some love for the halberdier. Harbour gold could be better if harbours worked differently – for this and other reasons I’d like builder-constructed harbours.
    +2 Melee damage for mounted humans is good, but see above. Road & Fort building is neat and unique, but neither of these upgrades is much use to druids or sorcerers. Cheaper roads & forts + watchtowers in friendly domain produce +3 research (or mana?) would be cool, but could be OP.
    RG4: Military requires building investment most upgrades don’t, doesn’t bring anything new to the table, but does prolong the lifespan of cheaper lower tier units with extra starting HP & damage. It’s a bit weak compared to the hilariously strong but also building dependent Economic fork. Switching some of the production upgrade for research would be cool thematically while avoiding one turn Juggernauts, but this comes so late a lot of important research (E.G. Produce juggernaut) has already been done.
    RG5: The military side of this is nice for heroes, but doesn’t hold a candle to the likes of meteoric armour and reinvigorate. Adding extra HP or 20% spirit resistance would make it feel less like a placeholder and more “finished”. Produce merchandise buffing further incentivises city spamming and is not nearly as useful to summoners as to gold classes. The latter could be weakly patched by also boosting generate mana.

    On class units:
    Theocrat: The spirit blast of Human Martyrs is frankly a shame. It added extra spirit dependency to a class/race combo that in no way wanted it and doen’t assist the martyr in his primary role, and drops the cool stone the heretic feel from the unit. Something that made the martyr resemble historical flagellants could be cool. Inflict bleeding wounds + break control would be nice fot a niche, though an in game martyr is a shirtless peasant, not a mystic, and the best thing might be volunteer.
    Evangelists are fine. Crusaders are a unit I’d like to see a polearm or overwhelm variant of (though no pikesquare for obvious balance reasons), and with orc crusaders already being tireless, the polearm-or-overwhelm niche is conveniently open A mace might be the best single-handed weapon for overwhelming attacks. Lastly, the crusader helmet was clearly designed for elves and suits nobody else, which is a pity when historic crusaders had very pretty helmets.
    Human Exalted should turn in their extra spirit damage for their old physical damage back. I’d like them to have guard breaker or overwhelm and to use the flammenschwert-greatswords used by monster hunters.

    Warlord: I’ve previously suggested silver swords for monster hunters. I’d like blessed arrows on mounted archers dropped for charge + armour piercing, emulating the historic, composite bow using cavalry of china, mongolia and turkey. I’d like all berserkers to gain mariner and human berserkers to swim on gold medal. The warbreed is a blight on the game and should be replaced with some sort of valkyrie or einherjar.

    Sorcerer: Human apprentices could perhaps eat a cost increase for focused on gold, semi-emulating strong will on gold knights while fittiing their combat role, though this might require a change to their attack, as 4 channels is a bit much.

    Dreadnought: Pike square muskets, charge on gold medal.

    Rogue: Bestow Iron Heart on bards, perhaps? Humans have the best scoundrels, and the same shadow stalkers as everyone else, which is a reason to object to shadow stalker evolution. Perhaps bards could get throw net, so that scoundrels losing it at inconvenient times is less of a hindrance. I don’t play much rogue, and I feel like it’s showing.

    Dead Guy: Human necromancers are already among the best, given their spirit attacks. Human reanimators with spirit blast as an alternate ranged attack wouldn’t obsolete priests, but they’d be able to hit hard after moving and would be interesting to use against despairing targets. Human reanimators already get extra spirit damage if I recall correctly, but this would be more visible and give strength through flexibility.

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