Racial Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Racial Balance Discussion

This topic contains 991 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  Pazerniusz 6 years, 8 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 721 through 750 (of 992 total)
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  • #222813

    NINJEW
    Member

    if there’s one race that is by far the least in need of buffs i’d say it’s probably humans

    the only racial units of their’s that aren’t particularly stand out are the longswordsman and the archer. i’m not a huge fan of giving humans a really good archer, but the longswordsman could use a little something to differentiate its role from halberds, if you absolutely must give a human unit a buff.

    #222817

    Brainstorming Archer changes, without advocating them, how about Human Archers get the arrow volley ability currently on ships!?

    On a medal, perhaps silver or bronze.

    My thinking is that it represents massed volley fire, which is exactly what military Archers did.

    Elves have the dexterity etc to make every single arrow good, but Humans don’t.

    However they’ve proved willing to put some work into archery culturally (unlike Orcs, who think shooting from a distance is cowardly)

    Now this ability might need toning down to avoid outshining Flamers (who I’ve proposed before should be organic flametanks…)

    The code for alternate ranged attacks already exists with Arcane arrows, so this would be a retooling really.

    #222818

    Hatmage
    Member

    The Longswordsman is unique as having most of the tankiness of sheild infantry and all the attack power of great weapon infantry, though the dwarven axeman shares that niche to a degree with his extra defensive strike damage. Halberdiers are better pike breakers, but fare worse against bows and infantry. If you want to exaggerate that difference, projectile resistance seems like the right tiny buff.

    I’d agree the human core troops are good now, so my suggestions there focused on utility over raw power. I don’t think that highly of a lot of their class units though, especially their overspecialised matyrs and exalted. And I’d say frostlings, elves and dwarves are more powerful as races, excepting in the dreadnought class – I’d like humans to not be the clear best dreadnought, but I do think that they should be good at dreadnought cavalry tactics – currently this is actually where they face the most competition. I will certainly say it shows how far balance has come since vanilla that units like civic guards and knights are entirely viable, and can even require counters.

    #222819

    NINJEW
    Member

    human hunters with water concealment and nets make them ridiculously good for water sniping. usually not a big deal, but it turns into a massive advantage on islands or even continent maps.

    swimming warbreeds are hilarious. blessed arrows MA are one of the better MA variants, probably tied with halflings and worse than elf MA.

    human assassins are very good. not as good as draconian or tigran on a land map, but water concealment gives them enough extra hiding space that it’s definitely a big step up from, say, halfling assassins. nets on scoundrels is also pretty good.

    in any case, humans are kind of a very good pick for most any class just purely due to the strength that +10 production provides, as well as a healing support, before even getting into racial variations or racial unit synergies. as an extreme example, this is basically what makes them the best dreadnought.

    cav evolve on top of healing supports on top of extra production is such a powerful combination that i’d certainly rate them as equal to frostlings, dwarves, or elves power wise.

    #222821

    NINJEW
    Member

    i really don’t think that there’s any class that humans aren’t an above average pick for. necro maybe due to the doubling down on spirit damage, though if you end up fighting another necro then going human basically becomes a free win. i imagine ghouled up knights make for a very strong strategy anyways, so i’m not so sure that human necro actually fares that poorly.

    #222822

    Gloweye
    Member

    i really don’t think that there’s any class that humans aren’t an above average pick for. necro maybe due to the doubling down on spirit damage, though if you end up fighting another necro then going human basically becomes a free win. i imagine ghouled up knights make for a very strong strategy anyways, so i’m not so sure that human necro actually fares that poorly.

    In the case of Necro vs Necro, I think maybe Frostlings – 1 bonus immunity, litte bit of fire damage. Though I have to say Strong Will on Elite Knights is far from weak, since you can build them with Silver Medal if RG allows. Against frostling though, maybe not – Frostling Necro with Royal Guard/Witch pairings is going to f*** you up hard.

    #222823

    NINJEW
    Member

    i dunno if that really competes with having a spirit damage support in a necro mirror fight

    #222825

    Draxynnic
    Member

    @Draxynnic: I prefer overwhelm to guard breaker on prospectors – guard breaker only works if you are attacking an opponent who is ready for you – exactly the sort of opponent whose head you’ll struggle to stove in with a pickaxe which, while capable of splitting stone, is not a maneuverable weapon. Overwhelm incentivises flanking when possible, as shield almost cancels it out from the front and polearm usually goes hand-in-hand with first strike. And sneaking up to flank someone is going to circumvent the unresponsive and unwieldy nature of a mining pick rather nicely.

    I considered overwhelm. It works for shield, but I don’t think a pick is well equipped for battering down pikemen. And guard breaker takes into account being able to bury the pickhead into someone’s shield and drag it around – breaking a guard stance makes shields less effective since they no longer treat all angles as frontal. Essentially, the idea combines a variety of factors – the danger posed by a pick that is ignored, the potential for a pick-strike to pull someone off balance even if it gets stuck into armour or a shield without penetrating, the possibility of using their knowledge of earth to raise up a cloud of dust to impair the vision of their targets and make them easier prey for allied units – these are all possibilities that can cumulatively lead to Guard Breaker.

    Why I suggest this RG1 work on Marauders? Because every race needs to have a useful infantry unit IMO, for class synergies – Marauders will open a better Theocrat synergy, enhance the Rogue synergy and boost the WL and Necro synergies here.

    Anything that Theocrats, Necroes and Warlords offer to infantry they also offer to cavalry, pikemen, and both respectively, and all three have their own infantry to offer as class units. Goblin rogues can still Cruel Backstab with irregulars or just, y’know, bypass that particular upgrade altogether. Furthermore, apart from rogues, all of these classes can build class infantry once they research those. I don’t think ‘synergise with classes’ is a good argument: the same argument could be made for, say, elf swordsmen.

    Marauders are in a decent place. They have Demolisher, Volunteer on bronze (as pointed out earlier, bronze abilities on tier 1 units are uncommon) and higher than baseline defence for an unarmoured unit. They’re not the best tier 1 infantry in the game… but not every unit has to be a contender for best in slot.

    If not then the obvious ability that should appear here is Overwhelm, which appears on Boars but not on Boar riders – since the overall weight of the charging animal is actually increased here, I think this could be a good, relatively sensible addition that will boost their combat effectiveness and make them more interesting.

    I’d been avoiding suggesting Overwhelm because that’s already the warg rider’s thing. If it’s already been given to regular boars, however, Overwhelm on boar riders would make even more sense.

    A good alternative here would be Guard Breaker, which fits IMO and will give them a good something respective of other cavalry units and their tactical role.

    Possible. I’m leery of giving out Guard Breaker too easily, though. On prospectors I think it’s all right because it would be on a melee irregular and Guard Breaker would be one of the main reasons to have it – putting it on a unit which is otherwise fairly solid just to give it some added pizazz seems likely to overpower it.

    Also Devastating Charge might be good here, or if not than AP – as par the suggestions to boost boars themselves in the AD Summons thread.

    Devastating Charge was one of the possibilities I’d put forward myself.

    Well, IMO if the ranged attack is removed from prospector the compensation should be quite serious, and Guard Breaker will certainly *not* do this. To use guard breaker the unit needs to be used offensively in melee, which for a t1 irregular unit can be catastrophic, and will almost always result in serious damage in the very least. Cheetah have a no-retaliation attack ability + Inflict Bleeding Wounds + 32MP and Athletics, which makes them very useful when combined with their hightened defense, this kind of combo is impossible for prospector.

    I think you underestimate Guard Breaker as a tactical ability. There’s a reason a lot of people are careful about giving it out – used correctly, it can completely change a battle.

    Let’s consider the cheetah as a base. Before Tigran abilities, the cheetah has 35/32/9/8, Melee 9 physical, Inflict Bleeding Wounds, Forestry, and Pounce. Let’s keep the prospector at the dwarven pace and give it 28 move, but give it some extra hit points to compensate. For the sake of argument, let’s go with an extra 3. So this would give the prospector something like 38/28/9/8, Melee 9 physical, Guard Breaker, Shatter Strike, and Tunneling. Add dwarven racial modifiers, and that becomes 38/28/10/9 and the abilities listed above.

    That’s actually reasonably tough. Not quite as tough as a Cheetah in defend mode, but it has the same resistance as the defending Cheetah and is only short in defence by one, while having more health. You still wouldn’t want it to bear the brunt of the fighting, but it should be able to survive pulling someone out of guard mode so another unit can administer a beatdown – particularly since this strategy emphasises remaining in formation, while the cheetah’s ability throws it deep into the enemy’s formation.

    If it helps, it could have an ability where it gets to take a single swing that isn’t retaliated against to do this, but it’s simpler to use abilities that already exist.

    Something very minor, like inflict bleeding or projectile resistance on bronze, or armour piercing resistance (angled plate is going to outperform chain), might work, but +1 defence is already pretty good.

    The +1 defence already incorporates this, since the justification is ‘better armour’. A longswordman’s armour accounts for three points of defence, while Armour Piercing can only negate two.

    Crusader is generic, which is a shame – I think human crusaders should have a variant, so throw in some ideas!

    I’ve generally thought of human crusaders as being essentially knights that fight on foot rather than on horseback… so how about Dragon Slayer?

    Certainly, I’d prefer not to see any change to their equipment.

    If you want to exaggerate that difference, projectile resistance seems like the right tiny buff.

    One issue is that that would be pushing them into Crusher territory.

    I think longswords are fine, personally. As discussed above, not everything has to be a contender for best in slot, and longswords do have a few unique abilities (combining overwhelm with good defence that can’t be overwhelmed in turn, Guard Breaker on elite).

    #222828

    ExNihil
    Member

    I considered overwhelm. It works for shield, but I don’t think a pick is well equipped for battering down pikemen. And guard breaker takes into account being able to bury the pickhead into someone’s shield and drag it around – breaking a guard stance makes shields less effective since they no longer treat all angles as frontal. Essentially, the idea combines a variety of factors – the danger posed by a pick that is ignored, the potential for a pick-strike to pull someone off balance even if it gets stuck into armour or a shield without penetrating, the possibility of using their knowledge of earth to raise up a cloud of dust to impair the vision of their targets and make them easier prey for allied units – these are all possibilities that can cumulatively lead to Guard Breaker.

    Guard breaker on a 28Mp unit with 35-38 HP is very bad as an exchange for a ranged attack, they will die like flies or be unusable half the time. Doesn’t work. Also one of the key roles of an irregular is wall defense, cheetahs can get by on being very fast, deadly and with no retaliation on 1 attack plus an inflict ability and predator, prospectors with guard breaker are going to be total crap here.

    Shatter strike is a joke on this unit, the ONLY utility you have a remote chance of seeing of this is if your opponent has and casts stone skin.

    You also forgot athletics on cheetah, the difference with prospector is huge in terms of mobility.

    I’ve generally thought of human crusaders as being essentially knights that fight on foot rather than on horseback… so how about Dragon Slayer?

    Its already borderline IMBA on knight, problem here is draconians. How about monster or undead slayer?

    I’d been avoiding suggesting Overwhelm because that’s already the warg rider’s thing. If it’s already been given to regular boars, however, Overwhelm on boar riders would make even more sense.

    Iirc wargs got first strike and boars got overwhelm, weirdly these don’t appear on the rider units and I think they should.

    #222829

    Gloweye
    Member

    I’ve generally thought of human crusaders as being essentially knights that fight on foot rather than on horseback… so how about Dragon Slayer?

    Sounds like a very good plan to me – add in Monster Slayer. They’re already good vs monsters because of Holy Champion, so it’s mostly flavor.

    Iirc wargs got first strike and boars got overwhelm, weirdly these don’t appear on the rider units and I think they should.

    Wargs got both of those(appearing at medal and base respectively on rider unit), and Boars got Charge.

    IF (big if) Boar rider needs a buff, either restore it’s MP to 36 or give it Devastating Charge, though it IS a piece from the Human’s book.

    #222833

    ExNihil
    Member

    Boar Riders are sub-par. Let me do a quick survey:

    HE Unicorn Riders: 55hp, 11def / 11 res, 36MP, costs 100 production units, got charge, AP, phase, armored, and 12 melee strike at recruit, gets inflict bleeding wounds on GM (1 medal upgrade total)

    Pony Rider: 55HP, 11 def / 12 res, 36MP, costs 80 gold, got melee strike 11, charge, forestry and Strong Will on GM (1 medal upgrade total)

    Boar Rider: 57HP, 13 def / 10 res, 32MP, costs 99 gold. got Charge and Armored, received Inflict Crippling Wounds at GM.

    So the boar rider gets +2HP and +2 defense in comparison to the unicorn rider and pony rider, both of which are armored as well, but it doesn’t have phase and armor piercing like the Unicron Rider, and its GM upgrade is significantly less powerful than that of pony rider, which is much cheaper. OFC it also has -4MP, which for a cavalry unit is a significant nerf. The only other cavalry unit that is this slow is the Mammoth Rider, which in comparison is: +11 gold more expensive, but receives +15HP, -4 def / -1 res, devastating Charge, +3 melee strike, Fast Embark, frost immunity (+60% frost resistance above race baseline) and has Inflict Crippling Wounds at BM and Killing Momentum at GM.

    Since the Inflict Crippling Wounds it receives on GM are an attribute of the mount, I think it should stay there – and it is a propoer GM upgrade, but I see place here for a BM upgrade, which for a t2 cavalry unit is quite common. Guard Breaker is powerful – it could go here only with a price increase IMO, but it will be useful and will justify its low movement speed, alternatively AP would be good, since Dwarves are the armored race par se and it makes sense that what they specialize in is, first and foremost, killing themselves (like humans usually do in RL). Overwhelm is justified thematically I’d say, although it doesn’t come from the mount itself.

    I would also like to see the HP base here increased a bit, say +3 to make it an even 60 or +5 to make it 62, which will follow the logic of Orcs and Frostlings, which compensate for a lack of t3 cavalry unit by having a robust t2 cavalry unit. Here it will simply be a tanky t2 cavalry with above average defense (which it already has) and extra HP (due to the resilient mount) and perhaps a specialized combat ability like AP, which situationally can be very good.

    A weird option is to give this unit Athletics, which will keep it slow strategically but boost it tactically, which is sort of a compromise I’d say. I also liked the idea of Improved Mountaineering on this one, which will make it interesting on mountain terrain. Projectile Resistance is also the kind of low tier upgrade that fits a BM dwarven t2 unit, so that can be used as well and have a bit of tactical utility.

    But I would still – as a baseline – like to see its HP improved upwards as a first and perhaps last step.

    As for Warg Riders, I think they need to get the First Strike at recruit, since the Mount itself has Overwhelm and First Strike at recruit and Inflict Bleeding Wounds at GM, and this logic is followed with other mounted units (compare Boar Riders and Mammoth Riders to the base animals, all the abilities appear on the animals without the rider as well). Currently it received the Overwhelm, but the First Strike appears like its GM upgrade, while having a base price that is a bit higher than that of Pony Riders. I think the Volunteer on BM is good, but I don’t understand why the Inflict Bleeding Wounds of the Warg GM disappeared here. Thus I’d like this unit to have Overwhelm and First Strike at recruit, Volunteer at BM and Inflict Bleeding Wounds at GM while retaining its current price (which is supposedly after discount already, thus being actually quite high to begin with) or having it slightly increased – all abilities being those of Wargs rather than Riders, except the Volunteer.

    Both of these rider units though should be relative to whatever changes occur to Boars and Wargs themselves, which I think and have thus wrote in the AD Summons thread, should be modified and receive some love.

    #222847

    ExNihil
    Member

    How about this for prospector @Drax,

    Prospector: 11 def, 9 resistance, 40HP, 28MP, Melee Strike 11, Guard Breaker, Projectile Resistance and Armor at recruit, Armor Piercing at BM and receives either Defensive Strike or Defender at GM.

    Or an alternative – nerfed melee and compensated ranged:

    Prospector: 9 def, 9 resistance,35HP, 28MP, Melee Strike 6, Throw Explosive 7 physical / 5 fire damage, rolls inflict crippling wounds, possible AoE effect – 50% damage maximum (4 physical / 2 fire) 1 hex radius, possible to include Inflict Bleeding wounds AoE with 1 physical damage base (Shrapnel)

    #222850

    quo
    Member

    What if we just increased the range of Throw Rock to Very Long but left the distance/obstacle penalties in place?

    I know this would be a buff to Martyrs too, but that wouldn’t both me. At all.

    There is the “realism” question of how a rock gets thrown further than an arrow, but this is a game where chickens travel just as far.

    #222852

    NINJEW
    Member

    wait how the hell is human necro bad at all you get a +10 production bonus on the class with the garbage economy and you can shit out iron heart to get strong will on everything if someone is trying to hit you with spirit damage, knights/cav evolve with necro’s ghoul bonuses sounds pretty damn awesome, and it’s not like your reanimator is getting their ranged attack replaced by spirit bolts it stays the same as normal (just their melee is changed)

    hell doesn’t spirit damage synergize with despair anyways

    #222853

    NINJEW
    Member

    How about this for prospector @Drax,

    Prospector: 11 def, 9 resistance, 40HP, 28MP, Melee Strike 11, Guard Breaker, Projectile Resistance and Armor at recruit, Armor Piercing at BM and receives either Defensive Strike or Defender at GM.

    compared to draconian crushers:
    -6 hp
    -1 damage
    -overwhelm
    -improved wall climbing
    -20% fire protection at bronze
    -tireless at gold

    +2 defense
    +1 resistance
    +guard breaker
    +armor piercing at bronze
    +defenseive strike/defender at gold

    gonna be honest here, i think this might be a bit much to stick on the racial irregular.

    Or an alternative – nerfed melee and compensated ranged:

    Prospector: 9 def, 9 resistance,35HP, 28MP, Melee Strike 6, Throw Explosive 7 physical / 5 fire damage, rolls inflict crippling wounds, possible AoE effect – 50% damage maximum (4 physical / 2 fire) 1 hex radius, possible to include Inflict Bleeding wounds AoE with 1 physical damage base (Shrapnel)

    compared to flamer:
    -lava walking
    -maybe AoE?

    +2 defense
    +1 res
    +1 hp
    +higher damage ranged attack
    +inflict crippling wounds

    i think this might be a bit much too

    #222854

    ExNihil
    Member

    It isn’t bad, I asked about Iron Heart cuz’ I never played Human Necro, and was answered. Since it works on Necro its already good. Only thing that needs something is the Reanimator, the buff +2 spirit -1 physical to its melee is really ridiculous – Why not +2 spirit damage to its ranged? Would be nice and good. Alternativrely perhaps it could get Spirit Blast on a cool-down? Same as the Martyr (11 strength) but with a 2 round cool-down, giving it an alternative attack. I can also see it with a weird thing like Swimming, would be hilarious, but really it would be quite good so you could have a Reanimator escorting an incorporeal stack on water.

    #222856

    NINJEW
    Member

    so is there any class that humans aren’t an above average pick for?

    #222857

    Hatmage
    Member

    Depends how you average things – they’re better sorcerers than pre-RG orcs (once orcs get production boosts, throw curse + inflict stun is pretty good, but even with those boosts humans crank out more supports), elves or tigrans on the backs of 1-turn apprentices, and redundancies with elves/tigrans, arguably have parity with if not superiority to goblins (goblins have weaken + stun and are also very spammy, so might be better except in the early game and sustainwise) and dwarves, but all of those are below the mean when factoring in draconian and especially frostling sorcerers.

    Human theocrat is the absolute worst theocrat in theo/tigran, theo/dread, theo/druid and theo/theo fights, but outside of them competes on excessive healing. I don’t think it competes with orc, tigran or dwarven theocrats, and it doesn’t have a strong archer for mighty meek like goblins and draconians do, or frostling multichannel infantry for the same spell + templar knight boosts, but devastating charge + mark of the heretic is quite good. I’d still pick any other race first just in case my opponent has a good counter, or even a bad counter, to spirit damage all the time on racial and class units alike.

    #222859

    NINJEW
    Member

    wouldn’t the theocrat abundance of healing make it ideal for a cav evolve strat? theo’s famous for being able to get units up to gold way easier than any other class right? unstopable early clearing and all that

    plus i’d think the human prod bonus would make human theo ideal for the crusaders in front of trebuchets play

    #222861

    madmac
    Member

    Human Theocrat is top tier for the evolving Cav, production bonus, and super Evangelists alone, everything else is just icing.

    I don’t think it competes with orc, tigran or dwarven theocrats

    Tigran Theocrat isn’t even particularly good, Orc and Dwarf and Halfling are also top tier choices but they have their own weaknesses relative to the fast build up and mass healing/spirit damage Human Theocrat has.

    #222870

    ExNihil
    Member

    If it helps, it could have an ability where it gets to take a single swing that isn’t retaliated against to do this, but it’s simpler to use abilities that already exist.

    Isn’t defensive strike exactly that?

    #222872

    ExNihil
    Member

    average pick for?

    Nope, they are average+ with everything, only questionable class is Theo. They are top dog WL and DN, and they do Sorcerer well in the current meta. I’d say they are the best all-round race, although this is first and foremost due to the production bonus and priest sustain / heal.

    The production buff is, by and by, why the mana & RP bonuses of HE and Draconians looks like shit. It was originally +5 rather than +10, and that was a big difference. That’s why I want the mana & RP bonuses increased to make these races more competitive.

    #222874

    ExNihil
    Member

    How about this for prospector @Drax,

    Prospector: 11 def, 9 resistance, 40HP, 28MP, Melee Strike 11, Guard Breaker, Projectile Resistance and Armor at recruit, Armor Piercing at BM and receives either Defensive Strike or Defender at GM.

    compared to draconian crushers:
    -6 hp
    -1 damage
    -overwhelm
    -improved wall climbing
    -20% fire protection at bronze
    -tireless at gold

    +2 defense
    +1 resistance
    +guard breaker
    +armor piercing at bronze
    +defenseive strike/defender at gold

    gonna be honest here, i think this might be a bit much to stick on the racial irregular.

    Or an alternative – nerfed melee and compensated ranged:

    Prospector: 9 def, 9 resistance,35HP, 28MP, Melee Strike 6, Throw Explosive 7 physical / 5 fire damage, rolls inflict crippling wounds, possible AoE effect – 50% damage maximum (4 physical / 2 fire) 1 hex radius, possible to include Inflict Bleeding wounds AoE with 1 physical damage base (Shrapnel)

    compared to flamer:
    -lava walking
    -maybe AoE?

    +2 defense
    +1 res
    +1 hp
    +higher damage ranged attack
    +inflict crippling wounds

    i think this might be a bit much too

    Fair enough, so how about the first one -1 def, keeps armor, loses AP at BM, keeps defender at GM.

    Second one, lower stats, give cooldown to attack but increased damage or no AoE and keeps inflict crippling wounds?

    #222878

    vota dc
    Member

    Boar Riders could get disgusting stench, would be a funny debuff. They could also have forestry and wetland walking since they are boars.

    How about this for prospector @Drax,

    Prospector: 11 def, 9 resistance, 40HP, 28MP, Melee Strike 11, Guard Breaker, Projectile Resistance and Armor at recruit, Armor Piercing at BM and receives either Defensive Strike or Defender at GM.

    Or an alternative – nerfed melee and compensated ranged:

    Prospector: 9 def, 9 resistance,35HP, 28MP, Melee Strike 6, Throw Explosive 7 physical / 5 fire damage, rolls inflict crippling wounds, possible AoE effect – 50% damage maximum (4 physical / 2 fire) 1 hex radius, possible to include Inflict Bleeding wounds AoE with 1 physical damage base (Shrapnel)

    9 def, 9 resistance, 35 HP, 28 MP, melee 11, armor piercing
    6 physical range but you get on guard mode after you throw stones
    place firetrap 2X2 (once per battle 10 fire damage, 2 physical damage)
    Flashlight….something like parry in AOW 1, a debuff of the first melee attack of the enemy…because flashlight placed on helmet can confuse the enemy.

    #222884

    Zaskow
    Member

    Boar Riders are sub-par. Let me do a quick survey:

    Hmmm, actually, no. Boar rider is awesome on auto. Thus they’re very viable in MP at least.
    On manual they’re mediocre, but not worse than Human Cavalry.

    #222892

    Ericridge
    Member

    Oh no, exnihil is just getting irritated now.

    What about me? Am I not allowed to be irritated? Alot of people don’t understand the difference between Longswordmen and Halberdiers just because they both have overwhelm traits. It’s sad. They go, hey halberdiers have overwhelm, what’s the point of building longswordmen. I”m like, dude longswordmen is infantry while halberdiers is pike. If they cannot grasp the difference between infantry and pikes then they are considered a lost cause to me.

    And then I see people proposing to remove stuff that I enjoy with in aow3.

    And stuff like tigran berserkers pouncing over the walls to get at the archers in an unique way? That got removed and I didn’t like the removal. It was funny and I miss it.

    Protip: Don’t want to be irritated? Don’t read Balance Subforum. Want to read balance subforum? Accept the fact that people will have different opinions. If Devs change something I didn’t want changed. So be it. They have the final say cuz they made the game. Until then I will oppose whatever I don’t like with all my powah.

    I didn’t suggest any changes for humans because I felt that their racial governance choices is damn well fine and good. I don’t want harbor choice gone just because someone feels like it could be “OP” or useless. It’s one of my favorite picks that justify me razing down useless cities that is founded 1-3 hexs off the coast. Independent metropolis but one hex off coast? Burn it down to the ground.

    Only thing I think that needs a change is RG1 Economy in humans. Anndd that’s it everything else can stay.

    IF anything, most of the racial governance on any other race is pretty damn boring except for dwarfs and high elves. Goblins, draconians, frostlings governance is boring.

    No opinion on orc, halfling, tigran governance.

    And then, Dwarf Economy 1, 75 happiness on stone walls. Really? No like.
    Discounted Store houses, shrines, etc. Who cares about some boring discounts. I really hate racial governance that just gives some “discounts” on city upgrades. They’re so incredibly boring and feels like a placeholder. They should be doing something else even something simple like gpt. Now that is more exciting than slightly cheaper building.

    I didn’t comment on human governance because I didn’t want anything in it nerfed or removed except for human economy 1. So I hoped it won’t get attention but it was eventually dragged into this thread so I had no choice but to comment against my wishes. Plus, out of all racial governance the human one is most exciting one for me because it’s well suited to XL maps in creating a commonwealth. Including the RG1 Economy.

    And plus I suspected that you have yet to play humans because Guard Breaker have been available on longswordmen for months now. No worries there.

    And yes, as someone mentioned I am against the evolving cavalry because it’s nonsense to get all that armor and barding + weapons for free. What I wanted is that once the Cavalry hit elite, it has a option in unit screen for you to press if you want to evolve it to knight for X amount of gold/mana to represent purchasing new armor + barding and weapon. As it is, human players can have tons of cavalry on autoresolve and collect free knights like they’re a bunch of pokemon. Equipment simply don’t pop out of thin air.

    It should be noted that I don’t mind the draconians because they used magic to be able to evolve. That’s more than good excuse for me.

    I got nothing against you exnihil. It was just unfortunate to be the one that brought the human governance into the thread, it could be anyone else.

    #222906

    Gloweye
    Member

    And yes, as someone mentioned I am against the evolving cavalry because it’s nonsense to get all that armor and barding + weapons for free. What I wanted is that once the Cavalry hit elite, it has a option in unit screen for you to press if you want to evolve it to knight for X amount of gold/mana to represent purchasing new armor + barding and weapon. As it is, human players can have tons of cavalry on autoresolve and collect free knights like they’re a bunch of pokemon. Equipment simply don’t pop out of thin air.

    For this, there’s a reason – the Evolve ability is in place already, and the rest would require new interface and such. And the idea of becoming Knights isn’t that bad.

    For the rest, you got a good point. I agree there’s not that much change needed.

    #222912

    +1 for costing to upgrade evolutions units. I don’t think this will happen – not in AoW III, but it would be great.

    I still think an ‘Boar Rush’ active ability, usable once per battle, that Damages and pushes the target 1-2 hexes would be more cool than anything else proposed, and would be a mix of defensive and offensive ability (of course it does envolve a new ability). But from the proposed existing abilities I think Devastating Charge is the better one.

    #222915

    ExNihil
    Member

    Oh no, exnihil is just getting irritated now.

    Now now, my hysterical noob, get a hold over yourself and play an XL SP map to get chellaxed a bit.

    EDIT: I don’t have anything against you either, except when you start off on the wrong foot.

    Anyhow, was fun guys, on this happy note I am going to retire from the forum for the foreseeable future. If you need or want to get a hold of me you can do that through steam (detail appear in my profile in the forum).

    CYA

    #222921

    Fenraellis
    Member

    As for Warg Riders, I think they need to get the First Strike at recruit, since the Mount itself has Overwhelm and First Strike at recruit and Inflict Bleeding Wounds at GM, and this logic is followed with other mounted units (compare Boar Riders and Mammoth Riders to the base animals, all the abilities appear on the animals without the rider as well). Currently it received the Overwhelm, but the First Strike appears like its GM upgrade, while having a base price that is a bit higher than that of Pony Riders. I think the Volunteer on BM is good, but I don’t understand why the Inflict Bleeding Wounds of the Warg GM disappeared here. Thus I’d like this unit to have Overwhelm and First Strike at recruit, Volunteer at BM and Inflict Bleeding Wounds at GM while retaining its current price (which is supposedly after discount already, thus being actually quite high to begin with) or having it slightly increased – all abilities being those of Wargs rather than Riders, except the Volunteer.

    Technically this could probably be simply laid at the feet of the fact that Wargs were tweaked and nobody thought to tweak the Warg Rider units. Heck, by the same virtue, Boar Riders should get the Fast Healing and Wetlands Walking that was granted to default Boars, especially the latter since the Boar is their direct method of locomotion.

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