Racial Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Racial Balance Discussion

This topic contains 991 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  Pazerniusz 6 years, 11 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 931 through 960 (of 992 total)
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  • #226029

    NINJEW
    Member

    maybe the best move then would be to decrease the costs again and call it a day

    #226032

    NINJEW
    Member

    orc shock troopers are a neat unit in that they’re really powerful but have a very severe weakness. unfortunately, it’s the same weakness that all orcs share, so it’s pretty likely that your opponent is already using that weakness against you.

    maybe it’d be better if on level up they got some resistance?

    #226036

    llfoso
    Member

    I’d rather get back on topic of supports and archers, unless we’ve said everything there is to say about that.

    #226049

    Zaskow
    Member

    What about reverting orc archer into hybrid melee/range unit as Spearman is? I just looked at Orc Hunter as example.

    #226054

    ExNihil
    Member

    orc shock troopers are a neat unit in that they’re really powerful but have a very severe weakness. unfortunately, it’s the same weakness that all orcs share, so it’s pretty likely that your opponent is already using that weakness against you.

    maybe it’d be better if on level up they got some resistance?

    There is no problem with -1 resistance, its a racial trait, and also no problem with a crappy ranged unit – another racial trait, but -2 resistance on a t3 unit is harsh.

    In comparison the only downside the firstborn has are the +20% price, which in this instance actually translate to only 7 production units more (5 gold 2 mana), and 6 mp, while it has an amount of abilities, resistances and the sheer power of these that makes the shock trooper pale in comparison, as well as +3 resistance points – here including +1 racial points in the mix.

    Sorry, I am not buying this is a good unit leave it as it is excuse – it is extremely vulnerable to every available kind of magical/elemental attack in the game, it has the resistance of a recruit level normal t2 cavalry unit, and there is no reason for this. It is an expensive unit, and if there is a need for this it could lose one of its myriad abilities or have these pushed to a medal so it has normal Orcish resistance and not be hindered this way. We are having a balance discussion so orcs are more competative are we not? Having a well balanced t3 is one of the points here, and resistance weakness is f%cking huge. It is already the only Orc unit that receives War Cry on Bronze Medal rather than on Recruit.

    Given the way Firstborn is looking, and has in fact looked since vanilla, and the way the other t3 units are looking now, I don’t see any reason why Shock Trooper should be kept at 9 resistance. I think its price is fine for the deal it brings to the table, its good – a powerful melee unit, it has a place to grow with medals getting War Cry and Killing Momentum. If need be the Inflict Bleeding Wounds can be removed – in fact I think it should be removed, this creates a redundancy with a heart structure to begin with and as already been pointed out is not the most fitting thing for its weapon type – and instead it should receive Inflict Crippling Wounds, on Bronze Medal (or if not, bleeding wounds should be placed here), alongside War Cry. This will work out to balance it out as a somewhat weaker t3 at recruit when fighting at melee against most opponents, but more powerful when leveled, while closing this balancing hole in the orc lineup.

    #226056

    NINJEW
    Member

    ok, lemme go back to this stuff i had declined to reply to due to the topic movign on then

    Ninjew, you are a smart guy. I was deducing that the devs reserved triple channel for class support units, and they are also Dutch so symmetry is very important!

    that doesn’t seem like something that carries any meaning to me. why did they do this? what’s stopping them from undoing this? why shouldn’t they just ignore that “reservation?”

    It can only be applied once, but if you do get both bleeding wounds and severely poisoned that’s 8 damage per round, which is better than the damage you lost – and as you say it works just as well from max range and behind barriers. The only problem is the unreliability.

    except, again, you can’t get inflicts off multiple times. so, having multiple orc archers focus fire the same unit still results in a big loss in damage. as a result, an archer heavy strat is still fairly unreliable, and players would be encouraged to only field a couple razorbows, and leave most of the fighting to tough melee troops.

    also, i was probably extremely unclear about this, but i was thinking of having it be more along the lines of something gained at bronze. they shouldn’t get 8 damage in inflicts at recruit, no.

    Are Jesters and Harpooners primarily damage dealers? Jesters, Harpooners, and Shredders all play a support role, and for the first two IMO the support aspect is more important than the damage. I think by saying the support role should be left to support units you’re thinking too much inside the box. Orcs kill in melee. That’s what they do. So if they’re going to have an archer it should exist to help with the melee.

    harpooners are certainly something you build for the damage. if you want the inflict, why would you ever go for harpoons over ice scrapers? ice scrapers have a superior inflict at the same strength (but vs resistance, making it a better option 90% of the time) and are substantially cheaper. the only reason to build harpooners is because you need some serious ranged damage (7/7 is decent damage, especially if you get a flank), which ice scrapers can’t supply.

    shredders are still primarily damage dealers. they are “supports” in the sense that their damage dealing inflict also lets other tigran units deal more damage as a convenient side effect.

    jesters you have me on, i suppose, though i’d argue that that’s an exception due to the total lack of offensive support that halflings get from their actual support unit. orcs have an offensively oriented support unit, unlike halflings, so i don’t think they’re in need of, nor should they have, a “support” style archer.

    honestly i’d say, above absolutely anything else, i’d still most like to see war cry on razorbows and priests.

    #226068

    ExNihil
    Member

    honestly i’d say, above absolutely anything else, i’d still most like to see war cry on razorbows and priests.

    I don’t.

    This is homogeneous and doesn’t fit these units’ roles in my opinion. I agree with @llofos, if anything should happen with Razorbows I would rather see them opening up units for more melee damage from the units meant to deal melee damage directly – that is – infantry units. Same goes for support units. Options are a range of inflict abilities that are fitting and which have been previously mapped in the thread and which do not require a synergy par se, but rather simply debuff either or both MP and defense on a targeted opponent unit as well as other parameters.

    #226073

    ExNihil
    Member

    Ok, since we have pretty much covered all angled of Orcs as far as I can say – are there any glaring class synergy problems we can pinpoint here? Any *bad* units except those previously mentioned?

    —–

    To recap here are the ideas I think are important and would like to see done:

    1. Modify victory rush: increase the heal to +8, optionally, and make it so Orcs receive half the terrain morale penalties when enjoying victory rush for two turns (after winning battle) and/or double the morale benefits of victory. Another option is to include a temporary resistance buff as part of victory rush, which works only for the round after a battle was won – thus +1 resistance after a battle was won.

    2. Modify Warcry: to include 5HP minor self heal, or, optionally, increase their total HP by +5 for 1 round (dunno how possible this is) and to include killing momentum as part of the package. Thus giving Orcs the ability to self buff, self heal, increase their DPS/AP/HP for a single round in melee only and depending on making a kill.

    3. Change the attack of Orc priest to Blight/Fire from Blight/Frost. Optionally add the Armored trait and increase its base defense by 1 point. Also optionally add Warcry at Bronze Medal and increase its price by 10%.

    4. Increase the resistance of Shock Trooper to 10 base, remove Inflict Bleeding Wounds from the recruit version and either place it at bronze medal or place instead Inflict Crippling Wounds at Bronze Medal.

    5. Decrease the price of Razorbows by 15%. If possible remove Razor projectiles from the recruit version and instead place Inflict Crippling Wounds at Iron or Bronze Medal. Optionally remove First Strike from the Gold Medal and replace with War Cry.

    #226075

    llfoso
    Member

    except, again, you can’t get inflicts off multiple times. so, having multiple orc archers focus fire the same unit still results in a big loss in damage. as a result, an archer heavy strat is still fairly unreliable, and players would be encouraged to only field a couple razorbows, and leave most of the fighting to tough melee troops.

    also, i was probably extremely unclear about this, but i was thinking of having it be more along the lines of something gained at bronze. they shouldn’t get 8 damage in inflicts at recruit, no.

    You were clear about the medal. I know you didn’t mean at recruit.

    I can also keep switching targets every round and let the debuff on the first target keep going…that’s how I use razorbows currently when I have them in my starting stack (which is the only time I ever use them).

    But whether the damage evens out is beside the point; the point is I don’t think making them more lethal at range is the solution. You’ll either make them just like every other archer, which is not fitting of orcs, or you won’t really solve the problem.

    harpooners are certainly something you build for the damage. if you want the inflict, why would you ever go for harpoons over ice scrapers?

    Fair enough. However, they do play a support role and give up damage for it. I’m not trying to say razorbows shouldn’t do damage though. I’m saying that as their damage is intentionally low in order to fit with the orc mentality, having them play a support role gives them some utility without equalizing them to the other races.

    honestly i’d say, above absolutely anything else, i’d still most like to see war cry on razorbows and priests.

    Do you find yourself taking the Military option at RG2 often? Solely giving them more damage isn’t going to help – they’re still too squishy to take into melee. However, maybe if they could reduce enemy melee damage from a distance before they go in for the kill, then it would actually be worthwhile.
    What if they could war cry, and then get the debuffs from the RG upgrade/medals? As follows:
    1. War cry at recruit or bronze
    2. Crippling wounds at gold instead of first strike
    3. Racial Governance Mil 2 now reads: Orc archers gain +1 blight damage (ranged and melee) and inflict exhausting fatigue.
    Then the Razorbow’s modus operandi would be: reduce enemy melee damage/mp from a distance because I’m too squishy, then close in and war cry for the finishing blow.

    #226084

    vota dc
    Member

    What if racial governance 2 gives volunteer and 20% discount to razorbow? They would be a very good garrison unit.

    #226085

    NINJEW
    Member

    I can also keep switching targets every round and let the debuff on the first target keep going…that’s how I use razorbows currently when I have them in my starting stack (which is the only time I ever use them).

    …which makes them inferior to other archers, because they’re still shit at focusing fire, which is a pretty huge tactical concept?

    But whether the damage evens out is beside the point; the point is I don’t think making them more lethal at range is the solution. You’ll either make them just like every other archer, which is not fitting of orcs, or you won’t really solve the problem.

    i mean if we want to go there there isn’t really much reason to use most any archer. pretty much all t1 units fall into “more expensive than irregulars, all i want from t1 is something quick and cheap” pretty quickly, and archers are no exception (exception: elf archers). an archer that requires time to kill is both a. inferior to other archers (who can get you that kill right now) b. unique enough in its role that it could actually be worth building (unlike, say, the human archer)

    Do you find yourself taking the Military option at RG2 often?

    if they had warcry i’d probably give it a shot. as it stands they aren’t terribly good at their “archer that can hit dudes in melee” role in the first place (though it’s very clearly a role they’re supposed to be able to fill. they have +3 melee strength over any other t1 archer), so i don’t particularly want to build them in the first place, and i’m not going to take a buff for a unit that i wasn’t already planning on making anyway.

    Then the Razorbow’s modus operandi would be: reduce enemy melee damage/mp from a distance because I’m too squishy, then close in and war cry for the finishing blow.

    pretty sure the modus operandi would actually play out as “reduce enemy melee damage, then reduce another enemy’s melee damage while a real man orc goes in for the kill.” even with warcry and rg2, you’re never going to intentionally have an archer unit close in on a melee opponent when there’s a dedicated melee unit already free to do the job. the only time you would is if your backline is being threatened by cavalry, in which case you don’t really have time to soften them up with ranged attacks.

    #226087

    NINJEW
    Member

    I don’t.

    This is homogeneous and doesn’t fit these units’ roles in my opinion.

    they have +3 melee damage over other racial archers. how is this not fitting? they’re clearly meant to be getting into some form of melee combat.

    #226097

    ExNihil
    Member

    Because if you want a melee unit you build infantry, which should receive the extra training of being an infantry unit. +1 is a racial part of the package, and the other +2 is simply the devs making these extra tough.

    I would rather see this unit prices reduced simply straight down – currently its simply too expensive for its performance, and it is an archer unit after all.

    #226100

    llfoso
    Member

    What if racial governance 2 gives volunteer and 20% discount to razorbow? They would be a very good garrison unit.

    That’s not a bad idea!

    i mean if we want to go there there isn’t really much reason to use most any archer. pretty much all t1 units fall into “more expensive than irregulars, all i want from t1 is something quick and cheap” pretty quickly, and archers are no exception (exception: elf archers). an archer that requires time to kill is both a. inferior to other archers (who can get you that kill right now) b. unique enough in its role that it could actually be worth building (unlike, say, the human archer)

    Sure. I agree with that. What I don’t understand is why you’re so strongly opposed to the idea of them applying a debuff, which would make them even more worth building.

    pretty sure the modus operandi would actually play out as “reduce enemy melee damage, then reduce another enemy’s melee damage while a real man orc goes in for the kill.” even with warcry and rg2, you’re never going to intentionally have an archer unit close in on a melee opponent when there’s a dedicated melee unit already free to do the job. the only time you would is if your backline is being threatened by cavalry, in which case you don’t really have time to soften them up with ranged attacks.

    I agree most situations they would be letting other orcs take the kill (but then the enemy still dies honorably on the end of a sword/spear/axe) razorbows are supposed to be the weaklings of the group. But I predict situations where if your melee damage is higher than your ranged damage bringing a razorbow into melee with a unit that has already been debuffed is better than continuing to shoot it – particularly if you can finish it off.

    #226101

    Fenraellis
    Member

    9 resistance is -2 below t3 standard which is 11.

    Technically, they are only at -1 from the standard, before their racial penalty, if we are trying to be exacting. Still noteworthy at even -1, but their Physical prowess is noteworthy as well.

    In comparison the only downside the firstborn has are the +20% price

    Let’s be fair, here. I would imagine most people would point to their movement speed as a downside, too.

    #226110

    ExNihil
    Member

    Technically, they are only at -1 from the standard, before their racial penalty, if we are trying to be exacting. Still noteworthy at even -1, but their Physical prowess is noteworthy as well.

    nope, they are -2 from the standard which is 11, or am I mistaken. What racial t3 unit has 10 base resistance? Name one please that doesn’t have -1 resistance as a racial malus (which actually proves the point). Or do you mean to say they are -1 point below what they should have through their racial malus? Well sure, thats exactly my point, they are -2 instead of -1 from the baseline for t3 units.

    Physical prowess is +1 melee damage, which is part of their racial package, so it actually shouldn’t be mentioned at all as abnormal.

    In comparison the only downside the firstborn has are the +20% price, which in this instance actually translate to only 7 production units more (5 gold 2 mana), and 6 mp

    Let’s be fair, here. I would imagine most people would point to their movement speed as a downside, too.

    ???

    Whats with you?

    But I was mistaken and it is only 4 MP difference, not 6.

    #226112

    What if racial governance 2 gives volunteer and 20% discount to razorbow? They would be a very good garrison unit.

    You know what…I like this more than anything else suggested, it reinforces they as the weakest racial archer, but at same time it make them usefull, due to the Economy reason. It is the same reason why Civic Guard are so usefull right now. +1 for this.

    And after some thought – and reading your guys commentary – I can see why 9 Res hurt so much on MP games, it is not something to worry on my beloved SP, because the AI don’t mass triple/double elemental channel damage against my units, hehe. So maybe 10 Res instead of inflict bleeding (and maybe +5% price) wounds would be ok here.

    #226114

    ExNihil
    Member

    You know what…I like this more than anything else suggested, it reinforces they as the weakest racial archer, but at same time it make them usefull, due to the Economy reason. It is the same reason why Civic Guard are so usefull right now. +1 for this.

    Civic guard has volunteer amigo, big difference in garrisons. I wouldn’t waste and RG2 upgrade on getting a discount for t1 archer units for garrisons to be honest, this could be a good RG1, but not a good RG2.

    #226118

    You know what…I like this more than anything else suggested, it reinforces they as the weakest racial archer, but at same time it make them usefull, due to the Economy reason. It is the same reason why Civic Guard are so usefull right now. +1 for this.

    Civic guard has volunteer amigo, big difference in garrisons. I wouldn’t waste and RG2 upgrade on getting a discount for t1 archer units for garrisons to be honest, this could be a good RG1, but not a good RG2.

    What? do you mean “Civic Guard get Throw net?” Because if you mean civic guard get Volunteer that was exactly what I said in my previous post. Also, I would not mind swaping the RG1 for RG2, in this case, as well.

    #226120

    ExNihil
    Member

    Civic Guard has volunteer inherently thats why you can spam them indefinitely for garrisons and forget about them, you don’t need throw net for that, they protect walls well enough as they are.

    You put 3 civic guards in a settlements, thats 6 gold per turn, you put 3 razorbows, thats 12 gold per turn, get my drift?

    And of course civic guards cost you 40 each and razorbows 70, so that would be 120 gold for a garrison, and that 210. big big difference, and in MP – decisive.

    Even at 20% discount it would still be costing 56 gold for a unit that requies 4 gold upkeep per turn and isn’t particularly good. I would rather have spearman for garrisons to be honest, they are a better unit through and through and cheaper.

    #226122

    Civic Guard has volunteer inherently thats why you can spam them indefinitely for garrisons and forget about them, you don’t need throw net for that, they protect walls well enough as they are.

    Ok, that why I agree with swaping for RG1, because RG1 come very early on. It would function almost the same way (with just some turns delay).

    You put 3 civic guards in a settlements, thats 6 gold per turn, you put 3 razorbows, thats 12 gold per turn, get my drift?

    And of course civic guards cost you 40 each and razorbows 70, so that would be 120 gold for a garrison, and that 210. big big difference, and in MP – decisive.

    I understand that, but the suggestion said about 20% discount as well. If placed on RG1, the function of those units would be similar, leaving throw net aside/warlord exploits.

    #226131

    Even at 20% discount it would still be costing 56 gold for a unit that requies 4 gold upkeep per turn and isn’t particularly good. I would rather have spearman for garrisons to be honest, they are a better unit through and through and cheaper.

    But the suggestion – that I agree with – says Volunteer + 20% discount, so it would be 56gold to produce and 2 gold upkeep. Somehow I feel that you missed the volunteer part…

    #226138

    llfoso
    Member

    It’s a solid idea.

    In fact, would it be totally OP to make those features inherent and use the RG upgrade for something else entirely?

    Although I still would prefer them in a support role, since I really like intra-racial synergy 🙂

    #226143

    NINJEW
    Member

    Because if you want a melee unit you build infantry, which should receive the extra training of being an infantry unit. +1 is a racial part of the package, and the other +2 is simply the devs making these extra tough.

    that’s the point though. razorbows are an archer that’s tough enough to also be used as infantry. warcry reinforces that: in the few situations where they’d be put into needing to use melee, they can, for one turn, be pretty good at it. but, since 9 damage still isn’t infantry-level damage, they’ll still have to spend most of their time as archers. it’d support taking that extra melee damage and using that advantage aggressively, without taking away from the razorbow’s primary role.

    i mean rg2 adds 3 more melee damage onto this and gold medal gives first strike so if you don’t think that the razorbow is a unit that’s supposed to be decent at melee then i dunno what to tell you. it currently isn’t amazing at that role, sure, that’s why i’d like to throw on warcry to further improve this role.

    What I don’t understand is why you’re so strongly opposed to the idea of them applying a debuff, which would make them even more worth building.

    because i’d rather see that kind of debuff on the priest?

    did i not state that enough times

    But I predict situations where if your melee damage is higher than your ranged damage bringing a razorbow into melee with a unit that has already been debuffed is better than continuing to shoot it – particularly if you can finish it off.

    i predict that that’s a situational advantage that will come up so infrequently that, on the few times that it is relevant, most players won’t even think to do it.

    #226170

    llfoso
    Member

    because i’d rather see that kind of debuff on the priest?

    did i not state that enough times

    I do too! Maybe I didn’t say that enough?
    But I want enfeebling fever on the priests and exhausting fatigue on the archers.
    Enfeebling fever is better for orcs, but would be too powerfully self-buffing on archers.
    Both on the priests? Maybe, but that might be stepping into blight doctor territory too much.

    #226172

    NINJEW
    Member

    honestly as long as you aren’t giving the orc priest weakening i wouldn’t worry much about stepping into blight doctor territory.

    if a debuff of that nature must be given to the razorbows, i’d prefer crippling wounds over anything else

    #226179

    llfoso
    Member

    That was my first suggestion a really long time ago and people said it would be OP.

    #226210

    Fenraellis
    Member

    nope, they are -2 from the standard which is 11, or am I mistaken. What racial t3 unit has 10 base resistance? Name one please that doesn’t have -1 resistance as a racial malus (which actually proves the point). Or do you mean to say they are -1 point below what they should have through their racial malus? Well sure, thats exactly my point, they are -2 instead of -1 from the baseline for t3 units.

    The very section of my post you quoted cited the line “-1 before their racial penalty,” so I admit that I’m not sure where the confusion on interpreting my statement comes from. I did also acknowledge that even that -1 base before their racial penalty, is notable, though.

    Physical prowess is +1 melee damage, which is part of their racial package, so it actually shouldn’t be mentioned at all as abnormal.

    By “physical prowess” I was referring to their collection of attributes and abilities, not really their racial +1 Melee/+5 HP.

    Whats with you?

    But I was mistaken and it is only 4 MP difference, not 6.

    Nothing in particular. I do admit that I didn’t fully catch your listing of movement for two reasons. First, the fact that it was a 6, and second, because “mp” so often means “mana/magic points”, and I personally more often use the words “movement” or “move” outright when discussing Age of Wonders.

    So, a little bit of a mix up on one hand, and a little bit of terminological differences on the other.

    #226235

    quo
    Member

    Shock Troopers are fantastic units. No buff needed.

    They do have -2 resist than normal units. Okay, but the Stormtrooper also has Tireless which ensures the ability to guard reliably and retain better stats while blocking.

    They also have Guard Breaker, takes about that much Resistance (and Defense) away from units they knock out of Guard, plus making them open to Backstab (which they get from the Rogue empire skill Cruel Backstab for great synergy when lots of Stormtroopers are fielded).

    They are easier to Convert based on base stats alone, that much is true, but you can’t tire them out to freeze them in place with melee attacks or knock them out of guard, which means their effective resistance is circumstantially higher than many units when guarding.

    With Killing Momentum on Gold they also have the ability to attack, kill the unit, and return to Guard mode, again taking advantage of the same/higher Defense and Resistance than many units.

    #226243

    ExNihil
    Member

    Hmm..

    You should take a look in the Rogue balance thread Quo.

    If you are going orc, it seems that your best bet is to go with assassins which is you best option with explorer – having high mobility – and better resistance by far as well as tireless, closing this huge gaping hole, exactly because of this huge weakness which sort of works against your argument here.

    As for the other point you make – tireless doesn’t prevent the unit’s guard from being broken, if an Orc Shock Trooper (Storm Trooper’s are from Star Wars 🙂 ) is guarding it can easily be taken out of guard by any melee unit that attacks it, although OFC its AP will not be drained, which is the advantage of tireless.

    Killing momentum is a gold medal upgrade, it does not appear on the recruit version and your discussion makes it appear as if it is the common behaviour of Shock Troopers to kill units and then enter guard, but it isn’t, this is only possible for gold or champion variants.

    Shock Troopers are expensive walking t3 units. They already compensate for their abilities by having almost identical price to that of first born, which are extremely expensive t3 units and extremely buffed ones at that. I don’t think the -1 resistance penalty is justified here in any way, Shock Troopers already have War Cry postponed to Bronze Medal. If need be they can be stripped of the Inflict Bleeding Wounds or have it postponed to Bronze medal as well, but the -1 resistance is very severe – equalling an additional -5hp elemental damage, bringing it to a total of -10hp total in this register for this unit as well as -10% in the inflict/+10% magical damage calculation realm.

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