Racial Balance Discussion

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Racial Balance Discussion

This topic contains 991 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  Pazerniusz 6 years, 8 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 961 through 990 (of 992 total)
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  • #226246

    quo
    Member

    As for the other point you make – tireless doesn’t prevent the unit’s guard from being broken, if an Orc Shock Trooper (Storm Trooper’s are from Star Wars ) is guarding it can easily be taken out of guard by any melee unit that attacks it, although OFC its AP will not be drained, which is the advantage of tireless.

    I’m almost positive units stay in Guard when attacked unless they run out of action points or the attacker has Guard Breaker (indeed, that is the point of Guard Breaker). Tireless units never run out of action points when attacked, so they stay Guarded.

    #226249

    ExNihil
    Member

    What you write makes sense but I need to test it to verify, or perhaps someone else here can say for sure?

    Be that as it may it still doesn’t change the fact that most of the time your shock troopers are not, in fact, guarding.

    #226253

    Lykus
    Member

    Hmm..

    You should take a look in the Rogue balance thread Quo.

    If you are going orc, it seems that your best bet is to go with assassins which is you best option with explorer – having high mobility – and better resistance by far as well as tireless, closing this huge gaping hole, exactly because of this huge weakness which sort of works against your argument here.

    Didn’t most people say that assasins are too fragile to use as meelee units. I thought everbody said the usaually get slaughtered after using their assassin strike. I don’t know how tireless helps them survive unless tey are swarmed with low tier units who don”t do much damage.

    #226264

    Zaskow
    Member

    I don’t know how tireless helps them survive unless tey are swarmed with low tier units who don”t do much damage.

    In case of assassins tireless helps them to act fully after enemy turn.

    #226270

    What you write makes sense but I need to test it to verify, or perhaps someone else here can say for sure?

    yes. That is why gold level gryphon riders are so annoying.

    #226274

    NINJEW
    Member

    Didn’t most people say that assasins are too fragile to use as meelee units. I thought everbody said the usaually get slaughtered after using their assassin strike. I don’t know how tireless helps them survive unless tey are swarmed with low tier units who don”t do much damage.

    they aren’t squishy. they just aren’t tanky.

    #226275

    NINJEW
    Member

    also i’m pretty sure what quo is saying is that tireless units can’t be forced out of guard by way of AP drain. which is true, and the reason why orc crusaders are so ridiculously good (normally you’d use cheaper units/tankier units to AP drain a crusader, opening them up to attack when they’re forced out of guard mode. orc crusaders are immune to this)

    #226543

    Hatmage
    Member

    Hi. Haven’t checked these forums in a while, but seeing the discussion of orcs, and particularly of razorbows and orc-on-undead violence, I felt that I might suggest emulating battle for wesnoth, another game with terrible orc archers. But these terrible archers have a dual purpose – in addition to an unimpressive ranged attack with arrows, they have an even worse ranged attack with flaming arrows, because why did you think a fist-sized lump of tar and cloth would make a good arrowhead? But this low damage attack has some uses – it counters heavily armoured infantry and undead troops. And something similar might work quite well here, I think. Any thoughts?

    #226551

    NINJEW
    Member

    what, like give them some kind of arcane arrows type secondary mode of fire? eh. any ideas for what that mode of fire would be?

    what would it do? i’m not coming up with any terribly good ideas

    #226552

    Zaskow
    Member

    Heavy arrows – 1 shot 10-12 dmg with possibility to move/guard like Tigran charioteer?

    #226554

    ExNihil
    Member

    How about giving razorbows sprint on bronze medal?

    #226557

    Hatmage
    Member

    what, like give them some kind of arcane arrows type secondary mode of fire? eh. any ideas for what that mode of fire would be?

    what would it do? i’m not coming up with any terribly good ideas

    Basically like arcane arrows, yes, something like 2 physical 4 fire flaming arrows – not a good attack, just a crude tar-soaked flaming arrow, but kills the undead without taking poison away from orc priests and acts as a self counter for orcs against shock troopers. Possibly too good against phantasms, but sorcerers are good orcslayers anyway.

    #226558

    NINJEW
    Member

    not a bad idea, though in that case i think you might as well replace their main attack entirely because i’m not sure why you’d ever use the pure physical version. shield modifier can only make you lose a max of 1 damage anyway on 2/4.

    #226575

    Hatmage
    Member

    Against draconians, dwarves, hellhounds etc. the razorbow might wish to carry some normal arrows. Though your point about shields and projectile resistance is a legitimate concern – maybe if it was made a straight shot the tradeoff would be more noticeable and better? Alternately, it might be possible to tie razor projectiles solely to the arrows with actual metal heads rather than pitch, hay and charcloth. Either way, there are situational advantages to each shot type already, even if some are edge cases.

    #226580

    NINJEW
    Member

    or, you know, enemies with defense over 10. normally you’d want to have your damage all in one channel against enemies with higher defense/resistance, but if you’re only losing a max of 1 damage anyway it’s actually better to go for the split channel.

    #226586

    Hatmage
    Member

    Bear in mind that medals would slowly bring the physical component in line with the fire, and largely go to waste in the process. Once you’ve medalled up to 3/4, shields and projectile resistance are in full effect again. But even so, 3/3 might be better.

    #226740

    quo
    Member

    Not sure it’s worth putting in the “real” game, but if mod tools allow it I kind of want to experiment with giving at least one unit (possibly the Warlord Berseker, but maybe an Orc unit instead) a self-applied Taunt combined with a big damage increase. Then you’d lose control of the unit, but it would melee attack whatever enemy is closest to it.

    Or maybe Orc Priests could place a Taunt on other Orc units that caused that effect. Granting Taunt (lose control of the unit) + MCI (at least no one else can mind control it).

    #226743

    quo
    Member

    Be that as it may it still doesn’t change the fact that most of the time your shock troopers are not, in fact, guarding.

    The AI won’t make them guard very often in autocombat, that’s true. But in manual tactical combat they are a very good unit for Guarding. Partly, that’s actually due to their low resistance. But its also generally true of many fights with other melee units. In melee v melee you are usually (not always) better off running up to other melee units and Guarding rather than attacking.

    Charge and especially Devestating Charge can change this, as can whether or not you can flank the target. So can how important it is to knock action points off the target. But anytime it’s just a melee v melee slugout, the person who breaks Guard first ends up being the loser.

    Being Guarded also prevents you from being Flanked or Backstabbed, so Tireless assists there too, since enemies can’t wear you down and then score a huge hit.

    Dreadnought Golems and Necromancer Deathbringers are two other units that are particularly well suited to this tactic. Also Orc Crusaders (tireless and defender), of course. But just any Tireless unit in general.

    #226835

    NINJEW
    Member

    the problem with running up and guarding is that you’ll always get heavily punished by your opponent attacking with their ranged units, then putting all their melee into guard mode as well, but in a straight melee only vs melee only yeah it’s the best move

    #226849

    ExNihil
    Member

    It really depends on what your opponent has, if you opponent has a lot of ranged or elemental/magical/conervts its pretty suicidal I must say.

    Sure, guards can’t be broken, and sure you can guard and its effective, but Orcs have crappy resistance, and I must say that ALL spells that debuff movement are immensely effective vs. Orcs, so if you happen to have a good Theo/Necro/AD spell cast around and can spend a few rounds pumping out movement debuffs on your opposing shock troopers it can become really ridiculous.

    Also consider that you can apply debuffs to guarding units first while they still guarding, example – use a chariot to immolate the shock trooper, then convert with an evangelist. sure its now burning – very angry and with lower resistance and defense and hurt, but its yours.

    My point is this, tireless is great, but its not so powerful that it counterweights the -1 point of resistance. If need be move Inflict Bleeding Wounds to Bronze Medal to compensate for this.

    #226886

    quo
    Member

    the problem with running up and guarding is that you’ll always get heavily punished by your opponent attacking with their ranged units, then putting all their melee into guard mode as well, but in a straight melee only vs melee only yeah it’s the best move

    Agreed. I would run up and Guard only if I couldn’t reach the ranged unit. But most ranged units are easy kills, and on Gold the Storm Trooper has Killing Momentum, at which point you can run at them, kill them, and then guard.

    My point is this, tireless is great, but its not so powerful that it counterweights the -1 point of resistance. If need be move Inflict Bleeding Wounds to Bronze Medal to compensate for this.

    I feel like most of the things you listed here apply to most racial T3s. I think the Storm Trooper is competetive with most of them except, arguably, the Knight and the Sphinx. I’d generally rather have Storm Troopers than Eagle Riders, and circumstantially would prefer them to Frost Queens, especially for classes with no bonuses for Support units.

    I’d forgotten about the Racial Governance lvl 4 ability that grants Fearsome to Storm Troopers. Multiplayer games may not regularly get there but my SP games do frequently. The Storm Trooper is already strong before that upgrade, its incredible after.

    #226890

    ExNihil
    Member

    What did I list?

    Also, you are killing me with the Storm Trooper 🙂

    #226908

    Zaskow
    Member

    I’d forgotten about the Racial Governance lvl 4 ability that grants Fearsome to Storm Troopers. Multiplayer games may not regularly get there but my SP games do frequently. The Storm Trooper is already strong before that upgrade, its incredible after.

    Actually, this RG upgrade makes Shock troopers OP and best racial T3. No one other RG can’t compare to this.

    #226926

    NINJEW
    Member

    i mean frostling RG5 is undoubtedly better but that’s RG5 vs RG4

    goblin RG4 is pretty damn good

    human RG4 can get you some borderline broken combos out of it (gold medal golems are the best thing in the world)

    #226936

    I’d forgotten about the Racial Governance lvl 4 ability that grants Fearsome to Storm Troopers. Multiplayer games may not regularly get there but my SP games do frequently. The Storm Trooper is already strong before that upgrade, its incredible after.

    Actually, this RG upgrade makes Shock troopers OP and best racial T3. No one other RG can’t compare to this.

    I prefer arcane arrows.

    #227189

    llfoso
    Member

    Not sure it’s worth putting in the “real” game, but if mod tools allow it I kind of want to experiment with giving at least one unit (possibly the Warlord Berseker, but maybe an Orc unit instead) a self-applied Taunt combined with a big damage increase. Then you’d lose control of the unit, but it would melee attack whatever enemy is closest to it.

    Or maybe Orc Priests could place a Taunt on other Orc units that caused that effect. Granting Taunt (lose control of the unit) + MCI (at least no one else can mind control it).

    I want this for all berserkers, not just orc 🙂 but IMO it should make them tankier. Maybe 40% physical resistance and +300 morale. That way you can run them into enemy ranks and then let them cut loose.

    #227192

    llfoso
    Member

    Actually, this RG upgrade makes Shock troopers OP and best racial T3. No one other RG can’t compare to this.

    More OP than invigorate?

    #227213

    Zaskow
    Member

    More OP than invigorate?

    Hmm, you’re correct. Invirogate can provide some OP-tactics too.

    #227220

    llfoso
    Member

    Honestly I think you may be overestimating it a little…it’s no worse than inflict stun, and going toe to toe with shock troopers in melee is a bad idea anyway, their weakness is ranged damage which this doesn’t effect.
    When I think about what makes an a eldrict horror or dread reaper dangerous, the fearsome ability isn’t the first thing to come to mind.

    #227228

    Zaskow
    Member

    Honestly I think you may be overestimating it a little…it’s no worse than inflict stun, and going toe to toe with shock troopers in melee is a bad idea anyway

    Any unit with powerful melee can be flanked at least. Problem is that fearsome is extremely effective even against flanking strikes. Inflict stun can’t be compared to this.

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