Ram Buffs

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This topic contains 134 replies, has 24 voices, and was last updated by  ariga 6 years, 7 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 135 total)
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  • #190320

    NINJEW
    Member

    Siege Rams are useless and I don’t think most people are even aware they exist, they are so bad.

    The whole point of Rams is that they get up to the walls and then knock them down, and die immediately to melee. Projectile Resistance is such an obvious ability to have on Rams that I thought they had it already.

    #190331

    vyolin
    Member

    Projectile Resistance is such an obvious ability to have on Rams that I thought they had it already.

    They got Reinforced, though, which is +4 Defense against ranged, which seems more appropriate, or at least more thematic.
    I think a simple multiplier on the Ram ability when attacking Walls/Gates might spice up things.
    Some thing in the 3x-4x range.

    #190333

    Zaskow
    Member

    They already have reinforced – far better ability than Projectile Resistance.

    However, I agree with uselessness of Ram.
    They need a few buff. For example…
    Demolisher x2 – they’ll become better at their direct purpose – Wall crushing. As a bonus – against machines too.
    Buff for HP, def, res and Armored trait – better survivability.
    Remove Fire weakness – IRL in ancient times people tried to protect Rams against fire at all costs.

    #190341

    Bouh
    Member

    Rams are fine. They even were deemed OP at some point.

    #190345

    Zaskow
    Member

    Rams are fine. They even were deemed OP at some point.

    Why then I can’t see players using Rams in SP and MP both?

    #190351

    NINJEW
    Member

    It takes a ram 3 hits to clear a stone wall, it doesn’t need a damage buff. What makes Rams pointless is that they die before they get there, so they need a defensive buff.

    Projectile Resistance on top of Reinforced would help, I think. Maybe also something like Shield? It’s a tiny bit wonky lore-wise, but I think balance-wise it would work well.

    Make Rams nigh impervious to arrows, and instantly crumble to any kind of melee. They’d serve a good tactical purpose of forcing your opponent to bring their melee troops out from behind the walls

    Perhaps lower their movement to compensate, so if the attacker tries to guard the Ram with their own melee, the wall archers have more time to kill the Ram-guard and let the defender-melee get in to dismantle the Rams?

    #190357

    Zaskow
    Member

    Projectile Resistance on top of Reinforced would help, I think.

    Make Rams nigh impervious to arrows, and instantly crumble to any kind of melee.

    No, it doesn’t. Rams are main targets for enemy supports, not for archers.

    It takes a ram 3 hits to clear a stone wall, it doesn’t need a damage buff.

    Doubtfully. Ram has only 16 damage and stone wall has 100 HP.

    Perhaps lower their movement to compensate, so if the attacker tries to guard the Ram with their own melee, the wall archers have more time to kill the Ram-guard and let the defender-melee get in to dismantle the Rams?

    Then no one will buy, coz Ram would limit movement at global map very much.

    #190363

    NINJEW
    Member

    Doubtfully. Ram has only 16 damage and stone wall has 100 HP.

    Rams actually do 46 damage vs obstacles

    No, it doesn’t. Rams are main targets for enemy supports, not for archers.

    Rams are immune to blight and spirit, and don’t have a shock weakness. Fire is intended as a way to kill them.

    Maybe buff their resistance too?

    Then no one will buy, coz Ram would limit movement at global map very much.

    I’m ok with this. Such is the strategic cost of attacking walls before you have access to trebutchets. And unlike Trebs, Rams are totally useless in field battles, so it’s not like they should stay mixed into your main army stacks anyway

    #190366

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Rams actually do 46 damage vs obstacles

    I can confirm this! It’s not actually listed in the unit panel for some silly reason though.

    This damage means, the ram will one shot a wooden gate (30hp), needs 1-2 hits to kill a wooden wall (55hp), 2 hits for a stone gate (65hp) and 3 for a stone wall (100hp).

    The damage does seem reasonable, though I guess I can make the thing tankier.

    #190367

    Bouh
    Member

    Bouh wrote:

    Rams are fine. They even were deemed OP at some point.

    Why then I can’t see players using Rams in SP and MP both?

    Metagame, fashion, stupidity, whatever…

    You shouldn’t mistaken what you see with what happen.

    I use rams when I need it. They are very handy when you need to take down a city, because they are easy to build (you can build ram anywhere), cheap, and quick to produce.

    It takes a ram 3 hits to clear a stone wall, it doesn’t need a damage buff. What makes Rams pointless is that they die before they get there, so they need a defensive buff.

    This is wrong. Unless you talk about draconian city full of elders. But then obviously a T1 unit against it’s natural counter will indeed be in trouble.

    Again, rams are inexpensive, expandable, quick to produce in any city. They are not something to keep and maintain, they are throwaway weapons. 3 rams+3 infantry, or 6 rams, and taking a walled city becomes easy.

    At some point they were deemed OP because they are tougher and hit stronger than infantry in some situations. To block gates or cover your archers they are wonderful.

    #190369

    Bouh
    Member

    The damage does seem reasonable, though I guess I can make the thing tankier.

    I’m tired of this. These days it looks like someone only need to come on the forum when he sees a unit he never used, cry a little, and the unit get buffed.

    Rams don’t need anything. They are fine.

    #190373

    Mythabril
    Member

    A universal tank boost would be detrimental as they are already used to tank in non-siege combat. If anything, I would boost missile resistances and nerf close combat resistance, This means in open combat they will lose their merit and become specialized siege engines as they are supposed to be. Very resistant to arrows but a cavalry sortie can quickly end the threat while (most likely) sacrificing the unit going out to kill the Battering Ram in melee.

    #190377

    NINJEW
    Member

    Is there a Projectile Resistance ability that works for resistance instead of defense?

    #190379

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Is there a Projectile Resistance ability that works for resistance instead of defense?

    No, closest we have is projectile reflection.

    I’m tired of this. These days it looks like someone only need to come on the forum when he sees a unit he never used, cry a little, and the unit get buffed.

    Calm down.

    #190390

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    He has a point, though.

    #190400

    NINJEW
    Member

    What units do you two feel got buffed too strongly, because people came in and cried?

    That is to say, what units in the game do you think are currently overpowered? Personally I think it’s mostly a pretty well balanced game, so I guess people coming in and crying about units is working! (the Elf Swordsman buff I will concede was dumb though)

    #190403

    vyolin
    Member

    Well, rams aren’t exactly overused, so I don’t see any harm in a healthy discussion. If you don’t want to partake, fine.

    As it stands they are more of a liability than an asset due to them being very slow, mainly.
    It’s probably because there are too many ways to get around walls so there is no niche for the ram to fill. Simple stat tweaking will probably not make any difference here.

    Perhaps they could provide Improved Wall Climbing to units adjacent to them that already have Wall Climbing – picture makeshift siege tower.
    That way you would want to partner infantry up with rams, while your enemy would want to destroy the ram because of the dual threat it poses.
    Thoughts?

    #190406

    NINJEW
    Member

    Eh, there’s enough units that need to get around walls that having something that can decimate walls would be plenty useful. I mean, it’s not like Stone Walls are a useless improvement over wooden ones.

    The problem with the siege tower idea to me is that I can’t picture a single way to represent that visually that wouldn’t look extremely silly.

    Something like being able to “garrison” units inside the ram, and get close to the walls while under the protection from arrows that a Ram provides, might make them more useful.

    #190409

    NINJEW
    Member

    Is 28 move slow? They have the same movement as Trebs, and I’ve never felt like Treb Movement was a big reason to not bring Trebs along

    #190417

    Zaskow
    Member

    Metagame, fashion, stupidity, whatever…

    Look, man, I played around 250-300 hours in MP – FFA and friendly duels – and I have NEVER seen even single Ram in action.
    AI doesn’t use them too.

    This damage means, the ram will one shot a wooden gate (30hp), needs 1-2 hits to kill a wooden wall (55hp), 2 hits for a stone gate (65hp) and 3 for a stone wall (100hp).

    The damage does seem reasonable, though I guess I can make the thing tankier.

    Can you remove this hidden bonus and just give a few Demolishers? Rams would have one more purpose besides Wall crushing.

    I’m tired of this. These days it looks like someone only need to come on the forum when he sees a unit he never used, cry a little, and the unit get buffed.

    Your statement would be true if we have here only one complainer. But you know there is a several people who don’t like Rams too.

    Also Rams haven’t use when you get decent shooters or got flying army.
    For elves as example Ram is strange choice, because you can easily shoot defenders behind walls effectively and have phasing cavalry.

    the Elf Swordsman buff I will concede was dumb though

    Add IMAO, plz.

    #190419

    Tombles
    Keymaster

    Can you remove this hidden bonus and just give a few Demolishers? Rams would have one more purpose besides Wall crushing.

    I could change ram to do base 16 damage against obstacles, and then give the ram demolisher x6. The only issue is that the ram would then become a crazy powerful machine killer. I think it might be quite fun that way, but I think a lot of people would get upset about it.

    #190420

    NINJEW
    Member

    AI doesn’t use them too.

    Tombles, why doesn’t the AI use Rams? Players in general might be more inclined to try them out if they saw them in action ever

    Can you remove this hidden bonus and just give a few Demolishers? Rams would have one more purpose besides Wall crushing.

    Alternatively it could just change from a hidden bonus to a listed one

    #190422

    NINJEW
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Zaskow wrote:</div>
    Can you remove this hidden bonus and just give a few Demolishers? Rams would have one more purpose besides Wall crushing.

    I could change ram to do base 16 damage against obstacles, and then give the ram demolisher x5. The only issue is that the ram would then become a crazy powerful machine killer. I think it might be quite fun that way, but I think a lot of people would get upset about it.

    This would be amazing and hilarious but also I would, indeed, get mad about it

    #190423

    Bob5
    Member

    I think Rams are good in very early game siege warfare, when you want to take throne cities by turn 10 or so, before you get much ways to bypass walls otherwise. Climbing walls is generally hazardous, breaking gates even more, and archers down the wall are going to lose to archers on the wall. Beyond turn 20-30 or so they become really outclassed by Trebs and other methods to bypass walls, like phasing unicorns, phasing supports, floating/flying units, and so on. That said there are plenty of T1 units that lose viability in mid-game

    #190433

    Zaskow
    Member

    I could change ram to do base 16 damage against obstacles, and then give the ram demolisher x6. The only issue is that the ram would then become a crazy powerful machine killer. I think it might be quite fun that way, but I think a lot of people would get upset about it.

    Hmm, could you decrease this hidden bonus by 4-8 pts and add 1-2 Demolishers? Ram becomes decent against Machines.

    #190436

    vyolin
    Member

    That said there are plenty of T1 units that lose viability in mid-game

    True that, but something that could be at least delayed a bit. There a lot of awesome low tier units, after all.

    The problem with the siege tower idea to me is that I can’t picture a single way to represent that visually that wouldn’t look extremely silly.

    Yes, indeed. Having the Ram providing a 100% line of sight protection might be nifty thing, too. Plus, totally intuitive.

    #190441

    Triskelli
    Member

    I liked the idea that Rams could get Killing Momentum, so they can get out of the way of all the units you want to rush into the gate.

    #190444

    Mythabril
    Member

    A siege tower could have a aura effect that bestows (improved) Wall Climbing on adjacent units. As they lose that effect as soon as they step out of the aura, they could only climb walls directly next to the tower aura. But I am not sure what will happen to a unit on a wall without Floating, Flying or Wall Climbing.

    Though all of this is rather improvised.

    #190524

    Bouh
    Member

    Your statement would be true if we have here only one complainer. But you know there is a several people who don’t like Rams too.

    You know people who are happy with the game are not here to complain. Any forum complaints you hear are extremely biased toward unhappy always complaining cryers.

    And this kind of balancing already killed many games.

    I guess AoW3 is the next one.

    #190527

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    You know people who are happy with the game are not here to complain. Any forum complaints you hear are extremely biased toward unhappy always complaining cryers.

    And this kind of balancing already killed many games.

    I guess AoW3 is the next one.

    One could equally say the forum is also full of people crying about anyone who comes to the forum is trying to ruin the game instead of just engage in a discussion about the game but that would be kind of a hasty generalization wouldn’t it?

    In reality many of the racial variants and diversity that transformed the game from its vanilla form to the much better game it is today came from the forum and ideas from these “criers.”

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