Ram Buffs

We’ve moved over to the paradox forums. Please come visit us there to discuss:
You can still read the collective wisdom - and lolz - of the community here, but posting is no longer possible.

This topic contains 134 replies, has 24 voices, and was last updated by  ariga 6 years, 8 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 31 through 60 (of 135 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #190532

    NINJEW
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Zaskow wrote:</div>
    Your statement would be true if we have here only one complainer. But you know there is a several people who don’t like Rams too.

    You know people who are happy with the game are not here to complain. Any forum complaints you hear are extremely biased toward unhappy always complaining cryers.

    And this kind of balancing already killed many games.

    I guess AoW3 is the next one.

    What units do you two feel got buffed too strongly, because people came in and cried?

    That is to say, what units in the game do you think are currently overpowered? Personally I think it’s mostly a pretty well balanced game, so I guess people coming in and crying about units is working! (the Elf Swordsman buff I will concede was dumb though)

    #190533

    NINJEW
    Member

    Come on man lets hear it. Where’s all the awful balance decisions you’re crying about dude?

    #190536

    Zaskow
    Member

    And this kind of balancing already killed many games.

    I guess AoW3 is the next one.

    You know but a lot more game have been killed and abandoned only because devs didn’t hear community suggestions.

    #190541

    Mythabril
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Bouh wrote:</div>
    And this kind of balancing already killed many games.

    I guess AoW3 is the next one.

    You know but a lot more game have been killed and abandoned only because devs didn’t hear community suggestions.

    Here’s the truth of the matter: Games get ruined by stupid decisions from developers who don’t know wtf they are doing. That and suits.

    #190549

    vyolin
    Member

    It’s not like this is the Steam Greenlight of Balance Decisions, there is some actual people – read: devs – pouring genuine work into evaluating whether things said here are worth implementing the way they are brought forth – or at all, for that matter.

    So let all the criers keep coming and let the discussions continue, I say. Thus far it has worked out just great.
    If anyone is allergic to change, well roll back to a previous patch, or sit it out until mod tools arrive.

    But don’t complain about people engaging in civil discussion.

    #190551

    NINJEW
    Member

    Seriously though where are the OP units that were made out of people crying

    I can’t think of any obviously OP units off the top of my head so someone really needs to tell me what got ruined by people crying

    Why aren’t you crying for Nerfs if the balance is bad now?

    Who the fuck just comes into a thread about buffing a unit in the god damn balance forum and says “people talk about buffing units too much here in the balance forum”

    What is this forum even for holy shit man

    #190576

    Ericridge
    Member

    I have used battering rams many many times. They’re quite excellent in bashing down doors and walls. Just don’t bring them to magic heavy city because they will get destroyed quick otherwise, use trebuchets in those situations instead.

    If you have to bring battering rams to a magic heavy city, well, bring plenty and good news is that now that walls don’t magically restores themselves after a single battle…. you can actually have a bunch of battering ram suicide themselves on a section of wall you want breached. And it will get breached unless enemy in question have alot of CP to stop it or you’re fighting a dreadnought.

    After all the battering rams die off, you can now start second battle and attack that breach. And if enemy team cluster around to protect that breach.. attack the farthest gate with your cavalry/knights and they’ll get through easily.

    And then there was many times where I got a batter ram specifically just to act as plug that breach unit to delay that nasty unit from breaking through to attack my tier 1s in melee. It will buy you a turn, two turns if you’re lucky. It helps a lot because battering ram cannot be feared. And it cannot be retaliated, any damage ram does to the breaching enemy unit before it goes down is good damage.

    That is one of the tricks I used to survive taming the khan scenario. Especially when all i had was civic guard lol

    #190586

    NINJEW
    Member

    I think the big problem is that the AI doesn’t use Rams, so most people never even consider them as an option, nor has any point of reference as to how to use them effectively

    #190604

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Seriously though where are the OP units that were made out of people crying

    I can’t think of any obviously OP units off the top of my head so someone really needs to tell me what got ruined by people crying

    Why aren’t you crying for Nerfs if the balance is bad now?

    Who the fuck just comes into a thread about buffing a unit in the god damn balance forum and says “people talk about buffing units too much here in the balance forum”

    What is this forum even for holy shit man

    Beside the point.
    To tell the truth, the OP complaints come more often, but the point is, that this game is really, really complex on one hand and has a very large “uncertainty region”, due to the fact that there are so many buffs available via other game elements AND additional parameters like specializations, which means, it needs one hell of a lot of experience to come up with a reasonable balance complaint.

    Impression is, though, that people complain just because they had ONE “event”.

    I mean, it’s something no one wants to hear, but after EL and 1.5, imo, you need – what? 100 hours game time to get an impression on balance?

    #190606

    NINJEW
    Member

    I think the balance complaints of inexperienced players are still valuable, it’s good information on what parts of the game are unclear and what’s not.

    If it’s a matter of inexperience, it’s usually pretty obvious, so I’m not terribly worried about the Devs making bad changes because a couple people think something is OP.

    Even when they do make dumb decisions because of popular opinion, like the Elf Swordsman buff, they’re still pretty reasonable about it. Elf Swordsmen aren’t OP or anything, they just took the race that, by all logic, should have the weakest melee, and just brought their melee to be on par with standard.

    Which isn’t too bad, really. And that’s the worst change they’ve made that I can think of, which means that they’re doing pretty good.

    Again, what changes have been made that anyone disagrees with? Playing the game today is the best the game’s been in the 220 hours I’ve put into it.

    #190614

    Zaskow
    Member

    Elf Swordsmen aren’t OP or anything, they just took the race that, by all logic, should have the weakest melee

    A bit offtopic..
    Actually, the halflings is already the weakest melee race in game. I can’t see a logic why elves should be same case.

    #190616

    vyolin
    Member

    I think the balance complaints of inexperienced players are still valuable, it’s good information on what parts of the game are unclear and what’s

    Yes, please. Me not pouring hundreds of hours into the game does not mean I cannot apply common sense and be rational in my deductions/proposals. Limiting serious discussion to the dozen or so people really versed in this game’s mechanics really doesn’t do the larger player base justice.

    Call me out on dumb ideas, no biggie, shutting down any discussion on the basis this being a complex game, is well, flawed.

    #190631

    NINJEW
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>NINJEW wrote:</div>
    Elf Swordsmen aren’t OP or anything, they just took the race that, by all logic, should have the weakest melee

    A bit offtopic..<br>
    Actually, the halflings is already the weakest melee race in game. I can’t see a logic why elves should be same case.

    Actually, it was a supplementing my point about Dev balance decisions, and how even the one I disagree with the most isn’t terrible, which was on topic (somewhat. not for the thread but for the whining about the thread, anyway)

    Personally I don’t feel like rekindling the fires of the Ancient Elf Wars

    #190633

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>NINJEW wrote:</div>
    I think the balance complaints of inexperienced players are still valuable, it’s good information on what parts of the game are unclear and what’s

    Yes, please. Me not pouring hundreds of hours into the game does not mean I cannot apply common sense and be rational in my deductions/proposals. Limiting serious discussion to the dozen or so people really versed in this game’s mechanics really doesn’t do the larger player base justice.

    Call me out on dumb ideas, no biggie, shutting down any discussion on the basis this being a complex game, is well, flawed.

    NOT. THE. POINT!
    Point isn’t you shouldn’t complain, point is, not every complaint should lead to a buff or nerf.

    #190634

    NINJEW
    Member

    What bad buffs or nerfs have come from random complaints

    #190635

    NINJEW
    Member

    Is this a thing that has ever actually happened? Ever?

    #190636

    NINJEW
    Member

    How many times do I have to ask for an example of this strange phenomena that you are talking about

    Surely you must be able to name some specific ones

    Hell you could probably even point to the threads where the complaints were made

    #190713

    Bob5
    Member

    Come on dude, drop it. Maybe Bouh is asleep at this time or has other business. Don’t let the thread derail on these personal issues. Just organize a MP game between the two of you and fight it out or something.

    #190718

    NINJEW
    Member

    I’ve literally only brought it up shortly after someone replied with complaints about the mysterious unbalanced nerfs/buffs that supposedly exist

    I’m sorry if multiple posts in succession confuse you, but those are all within 5 minutes of each other

    #190930

    Bouh
    Member

    If anyone is allergic to change, well roll back to a previous patch, or sit it out until mod tools arrive.

    The big problem is that balance changes are stuffed with bug fixes and translation fixes.

    So the choice is to keep a broken game or an unbalanced one ?

    Great…

    What bad buffs or nerfs have come from random complaints

    Rework of economy, rework of enchantments, priests nerf, infantry, cavalry and pikemen buffs, warlord buffs.

    Each balance fix lead to more balance fixes. I call this failed fix, because they fix nothing, they only make people cry for something else. When each change call for the next one, you are not doing it right.

    Tell me about one balance change that left the game balanced ? The game is not better balanced than before, it’s different, and people don’t know where the balance settled yet.

    Now you will say balancing is hard etc. but this is bullshit. The truth is that people mistaken balance and design. They mistaken a sane and balanced ecosystem with a state where the units they like are powerful enough for their taste.

    Balance is a high level thing. You can’t do it properly by focusing on one unit and expect it to do stuff without considering everything else. And the big problem here is that NOBODY on this forum of arrogant and stupid people ever try to fit his balance propositions into a higher level model. The best we have is “this unit is bad, it should be better, that is obvious, or everyone would use it”. This is children balance. This is stupidity. And I don’t even talk about the authority arguments of people who think that playing a thousand hours to a game makes you any good at balancing it. These people are the worst.

    Now I’m not saying I’m smart and humble. I’m definitely stupid and arrogant, but at least I know it, and that’s why I so often advocate for conservatism.

    The current war of the expansion is on T1 units. Suddenly everyone want T1 units to be omnipresent in the game. Suddenly everyone want one ram to be better than a trebuchet when you can build 6 of them by the time you get your first trebuchet. Suddenly everyone want T1 infantry to not die when used by the AI ; everyone want T1 infantry to be as useful as expensive T2 units.

    So yeah, when people on this forum will discuss game design instead of balancing fix, we will have made insaly huge progress. You can’t balance one thing in isolation of the others. When you balance a game, you need to have the whole fuckin picture in mind. Not your single beloved pet unit.

    To put this in practice, we are talking here about rams. Ram is a machine, a T1 melee unit, and a siege unit, and have no building requirement, you can build it everywhere. Why do people don’t build ram ? Because they can already take cities. How ? With siege machines ? With flyers ? With nothing ? What place do you want rams to to take ? Do you want it to obsolete infantry ? Flyers ? Trebuchets ? Because this is what will happen when you will have buffed them inconsiderably. And what will be the next useless unit ?

    We have tiers of units in this game. This means that a higher tier unit must be better than the same price in lower tier units to be worth it. This means that low tier units do get obsoleted, by design.

    #190936

    Buczer
    Member

    Rams are surprisingly effective low-tier wall defender against AI (wich is also somewhat imersion breaking). Archers cant do a shit to them, infantry can be efectively blocked on the wall. If you have some means to repair them, they can win imposible battles (once i won “very likely defeat” one against AI). Also, rams are good meat shield in sieges. Personally I dont find them useless.

    #190944

    Buczer
    Member

    Now you will say balancing is hard etc. but this is bullshit. The truth is that people mistaken balance and design. They mistaken a sane and balanced ecosystem with a state where the units they like are powerful enough for their taste.

    Right…so i was fine with potential Halbardier nerf just to make LSM more usefull, becouse its my favorite unit, right?
    WRONG!
    It was becouse I really believed that unit had no use. And that comes from the guy who didnt see any problem with unbuffed City Guards. I was actually more sceptical about knight need to buff, becouse they were already usefull. You use kind of argumantation I really dont like.

    #190955

    NINJEW
    Member

    Rework of economy, rework of enchantments, priests nerf, infantry, cavalry and pikemen buffs, warlord buffs.

    What is it about any of these things that is unbalanced now

    Tell me about one balance change that left the game balanced ? The game is not better balanced than before, it’s different, and people don’t know where the balance settled yet.

    When they changed Draconian Apprentices from having Fire Bomb and Fairy fire to Fire Bomb and Fire Bolts, and also gave some kind of differentiation on all the other racial variants of apprentices in the form of buffs (arguable in the case of bane fire and magic bolts), this made the game more balanced.

    Because Sorcerers only have one producable class unit, the biggest differences in terms of race picks for that class are going to come from that single unit. A race that has a superior Apprentice is, most likely anyway, a superior Sorcerer, because there isn’t much space elsewhere for any other aspects of the races to make a huge difference.

    By having Fire Bomb, and being otherwise identical, Draconians were far and away the best choice for playing Sorcerer, which was unbalanced (if a High Elf sorcerer and a Draconian Sorcerer faced off, assuming equal skill, the Draconian Sorcerer would win, simply because Draconian Apprentices were superior, and all other aspects of gameplay were roughly Equal). The lack of variety was also uninteresting.

    Because they made that balance change, a High Elf Sorcerer vs Draconian Sorcerer match up is far less easy to predict, because there is no single factor that can be pointed to as definitely in favor of one side or another. Draconian Apprentices still have firebombs, which is a big bonus, but Fire Bolts is worse than Fairy Fire, and High Elf Apprentices have Total Awareness.

    Now you will say balancing is hard etc. but this is bullshit.

    Are you trying to tell me that balancing is easy? lol

    Man I don’t even want to read the rest of that garbage if you can’t give me a specific example of something that is unbalanced. You can’t just point to random shit like “oh priests are unbalanced now” either, and expect me to just obviously see “oh you’re right, it’s so clear to me now, I had never considered priests before but now that you mention it priests are garbage.” You gotta back up your random ass accusations of imbalance with some kind of basic reasoning as to how that is the case, because if you just tell me “priests are unbalanced,” I’ll straight up say “that’s bullshit, I don’t believe you, priests seem fine to me.”

    You haven’t unlocked any secrets of the universe that everyone else is just oblivious to dude, the mere mention of “infantry” isn’t going to blow my mind and prove to me that there’s even a discussion worth having here.

    Like are you serious? What does that even mean? Are all infantry everywhere unbalanced?

    The current war of the expansion is on T1 units. Suddenly everyone want T1 units to be omnipresent in the game. Suddenly everyone want one ram to be better than a trebuchet when you can build 6 of them by the time you get your first trebuchet.

    Dude if that happened everyone would just turn around and complain about how Trebs are useless now and no one uses them.

    Balance is a high level thing. You can’t do it properly by focusing on one unit and expect it to do stuff without considering everything else. And the big problem here is that NOBODY on this forum of arrogant and stupid people ever try to fit his balance propositions into a higher level model. The best we have is “this unit is bad, it should be better, that is obvious, or everyone would use it”. This is children balance. This is stupidity.

    People do take the larger picture into account. In this very thread, the advantages of using Trebs over Rams and how it should be taken into account that Rams come out sooner was brought up.

    I’m ok with this. Such is the strategic cost of attacking walls before you have access to trebutchets. And unlike Trebs, Rams are totally useless in field battles, so it’s not like they should stay mixed into your main army stacks anyway

    I think Rams are good in very early game siege warfare, when you want to take throne cities by turn 10 or so, before you get much ways to bypass walls otherwise. Climbing walls is generally hazardous, breaking gates even more, and archers down the wall are going to lose to archers on the wall. Beyond turn 20-30 or so they become really outclassed by Trebs and other methods to bypass walls, like phasing unicorns, phasing supports, floating/flying units, and so on. That said there are plenty of T1 units that lose viability in mid-game

    You’re full of shit dude. It’s a fucking discussion, I started it with the opinion that Rams need a buff, some people came in and agreed, a few people came in and disagreed, and we exchanged points for why Rams should or should not be buffed, and if a change would be made what change that should be. People are considering the “big picture,” you aren’t the sole intelligent individual here.

    I’m definitely stupid and arrogant

    Sure, I can agree with you on this at least

    To put this in practice, we are talking here about rams. Ram is a machine, a T1 melee unit, and a siege unit, and have no building requirement, you can build it everywhere. Why do people don’t build ram ? Because they can already take cities. How ? With siege machines ? With flyers ? With nothing ? What place do you want rams to to take ? Do you want it to obsolete infantry ? Flyers ? Trebuchets ? Because this is what will happen when you will have buffed them inconsiderably. And what will be the next useless unit ?

    No one wants Rams to obsolete anyone, and I think everyone is well aware that that could potentially happen. The potential of Rams stepping outside their specific role because of the proposed changes was brought up, and discussed, both the likelyhood of that happening (with the proposed changes, it was a certainty) and whether or not giving the Ram that additional role would be beneficial or harmful to balance.

    A universal tank boost would be detrimental as they are already used to tank in non-siege combat. If anything, I would boost missile resistances and nerf close combat resistance, This means in open combat they will lose their merit and become specialized siege engines as they are supposed to be. Very resistant to arrows but a cavalry sortie can quickly end the threat while (most likely) sacrificing the unit going out to kill the Battering Ram in melee.

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Zaskow wrote:</div>
    Can you remove this hidden bonus and just give a few Demolishers? Rams would have one more purpose besides Wall crushing.

    I could change ram to do base 16 damage against obstacles, and then give the ram demolisher x6. The only issue is that the ram would then become a crazy powerful machine killer. I think it might be quite fun that way, but I think a lot of people would get upset about it.

    We have tiers of units in this game. This means that a higher tier unit must be better than the same price in lower tier units to be worth it. This means that low tier units do get obsoleted, by design.

    Do you honestly think that there is anyone advocating for T1 Swordsmen to be better than T2 melee class units?

    Again, if the changes were made and Rams were determined to be more useful than Trebs, it would be brought up, and there would be calls for Rams to be nerfed, Trebs to be buffed, or both.

    #190963

    Zaskow
    Member

    Each balance fix lead to more balance fixes.

    Yeah. Just leave balance from release version, right? It was ideal, right?

    The best we have is “this unit is bad, it should be better, that is obvious, or everyone would use it”. This is children balance. This is stupidity. And I don’t even talk about the authority arguments of people who think that playing a thousand hours to a game makes you any good at balancing it. These people are the worst.

    *facepalm*
    So, you propose an “adult” type of balance where only a few units will have constant use and others will be just thrown away and never built.
    I saw such games. They are abandoned now or fixed by modders.

    #190968

    NINJEW
    Member

    Starcraft is intentionally balanced so every unit is useful, even going into late game. AoW3 doesn’t necessarily need to go this far, but being able to look at your options and not have to just instantly write off all your T1s and T2s as useless is pretty cool, and makes for a more fun game.

    I mean Elf Longbows have always been really useful, even going late into the game. Longbows never go obsolete, unless you have class units like Elf Hunters that fulfill exactly the same role.

    #190970

    Bob5
    Member

    Why am I being quoted in that post and my quote is completely followed by “You’re full of shit dude” and a rant that I don’t really see being relevant to my story? I’m guessing it’s a mistake, if it’s not, please try to approach me with more mature arguments than that. I try to treat my fellow users with respect, even if I have a different opinion, and I expect them to do the same to me.

    #190971

    NINJEW
    Member

    I was using your post as an example of this

    People do take the larger picture into account. In this very thread, the advantages of using Trebs over Rams and how it should be taken into account that Rams come out sooner was brought up.

    That entire post is a response to bouh

    #190973

    Buczer
    Member

    Starcraft is intentionally balanced so every unit is useful, even going into late game. AoW3 doesn’t necessarily need to go this far, but being able to look at your options and not have to just instantly write off all your T1s and T2s as useless is pretty cool, and makes for a more fun game.

    I mean Elf Longbows have always been really useful, even going late into the game. Longbows never go obsolete, unless you have class units like Elf Hunters that fulfill exactly the same role.

    Exacly. I do not agree with NINJEW about rams beeing useless – at last not in single player, as AI deals poorly with rams – but I read what others think about it and change – or not – my point of view. Its a BALANCE DISCUSION THREAD FFS.

    #190976

    NINJEW
    Member

    Honestly I’ve even kind of changed my mind on the issue after this thread, I want to give them a shot. They only cost 50 gold, that’s basically the price of an irregular. Spamming out a full stack of Rams never occurred to me before, I has always assumed that they were meant to be used as a one or two at a time deal, like Trebs.

    #190977

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I may not always agree with Bouh, but in this case I think he is absolutely right and hits the nail on the head.

    Telling him, he’s “full of shit”, is no way to prove him wrong.

Viewing 30 posts - 31 through 60 (of 135 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.