Ram Buffs

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This topic contains 134 replies, has 24 voices, and was last updated by  ariga 6 years, 7 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 61 through 90 (of 135 total)
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  • #190983

    NINJEW
    Member

    He’s full of shit because he said that people don’t look at the “big picture,” but there was two examples in this very thread that I quoted of people looking at the “big picture.”

    I’m not sure how someone could be more full of shit than that.

    #190992

    Bob5
    Member

    Still quite rude and unnecessary to use such language. This isn’t Youtube you know. I think some guys here should consider

    #191008

    n0rf
    Member

    I could change ram to do base 16 damage against obstacles, and then give the ram demolisher x6. The only issue is that the ram would then become a crazy powerful machine killer. I think it might be quite fun that way, but I think a lot of people would get upset about it.

    I think it’s good idea to have counter for machines. Of course you exaggerate when say demolisher x6. But you know it’s ok when you have race/class that have forces with good counter against machines (elves, sorcs or rouge for example). But what if you are playing goblin warlord for example. Every second unit has poison attack which machines are immune. And it’s good to have anything that you can use against dreadnought.

    Of course rams shouldn’t kill every machine. But it would be nice if rams would be a threat for army that is full of golems for example.

    #191016

    NINJEW
    Member

    Marauders have Demolisher

    Beetle Riders have Demolisher x2

    #191025

    Zaskow
    Member

    Marauders have Demolisher
    Beetle Riders have Demolisher x2

    All this stuff can be shoot down from safe distance.

    #191080

    Bouh
    Member

    Of course rams shouldn’t kill every machine. But it would be nice if rams would be a threat for army that is full of golems for example.

    They already do, somewhat. 2 rams cost the price of a golem, and two rams should be able to kill a golem. one ram will die, but still.

    And that’s true of most TX vs TX+1 unit matchups. For the same price more units will almost always be better than less more powerful units as far as battle outcome goes. Higher tier units have other advantages, but it’s well balanced overall.

    That’s why debates about T1 units are so boring. T1 units are underestimated because people often underestimate the power of numbers.

    #191207

    n0rf
    Member

    They already do, somewhat. 2 rams cost the price of a golem, and two rams should be able to kill a golem. one ram will die, but still.

    You are wrong. 2 rams won’t kill 1 golem. What is more it is very cheap skill for dread which allow reduce price for golems. But his opponent still would build rams for 50g. What is more both rams and golems are t2 units, so 2 rams cost twice more to maintain.

    When you are talking about cheap armies you don’t take into account that it’s much harder to level up them, cause they die like a flies in autobattles. Also it’s harder to buff big army of cheap warriors by your heroes buffs. And ofc it’s hard to have more than 2-3 stacks cause it would be splitstacked.

    #191224

    NINJEW
    Member

    Not to mention production bottlenecking. Only one unit per turn max means that cheaper units are less valuable when you can build better ones in the same amount of time.

    #191767

    CatWalker
    Member

    Yeah I was was reading through this thread chuckling but glad someone finally pointed out they were tier 2, with tier 2 upkeep before the end. Bouh’s posts continue to entertain.

    #191856

    Brandon_354
    Member

    Yeah I was was reading through this thread chuckling but glad someone finally pointed out they were tier 2, with tier 2 upkeep before the end. Bouh’s posts continue to entertain.

    the point about them being cheap and available easily still holds though making them extremely expendable so I don’t want to see them become too good. They should be significantly less effective than what a dreadnought machine would be. I would like to possibly see an Ai with a rush tactic employ these or maybe just as a supplementary force to a siege in general even if it isn’t early game.

    #192037

    Sharpnessism
    Member

    Rams are okay. They are extremely cheap and can be made in 1 turn in most cities. I don’t think their upkeep is relevant because they’re really “1 shot” units that are supposed to be used to break walls/gates down and die.

    Their role is for city sieges early on and they fulfill that role well.

    Also Rams haven’t use when you get decent shooters or got flying army.
    For elves as example Ram is strange choice, because you can easily shoot defenders behind walls effectively and have phasing cavalry.

    Flying army means a T3/T4 army. Infantry are also fairly useless by that point but it doesn’t mean they need to be buffed to stand up to T3/T4 units.

    Certain units are more useful at certain points in the game. Rams are useful early on and I really see no problem with them. Late game you have plenty of other options (trebuchets, flying units, etc.) so they naturally become less relevant.

    I think another important point to make is that walls are already weak enough. There are plenty of things that kill walls, climb walls, and go over walls. Right now they still retain some early game usefulness. If rams get any better walls will lose even more effectiveness, which is completely unneeded.

    #192046

    llfoso
    Member

    Rams are fine. The only frustrating thing is that you have to wait another turn after they smash a gate to move them out of the way, unless you target one of the spots on the wall with two hexes touching. It would be cool if they had a version of killing momentum that worked on obstacles so you could break the gate and then back them up.

    #192056

    NINJEW
    Member

    Who the hell doesn’t hurry production on siege workshop in the opening turns of the game

    #192070

    Sharpnessism
    Member

    Also I agree with Bouh in that there are too many topics made which dilutes discussion that could be more valuable in other threads. Or simply having less discussion would be good too so devs can focus more strongly on the few topics/problems that are presented.

    The problem is that there is no standard for what is needed to make a balance topic. If a problem is widely known then just making a topic is okay. If it’s a new problem or a personal opinion, you should need some sort of evidence to support yourself.

    Just saying “rams are useless, people don’t know they even exist” is not enough. You should bring up their relevant stats, cost, and also talk about units/summons that they can be compared to. Anecdotal experiences with the usage of the unit would be good to back up your more concrete thoughts. Make sure you are discussing the unit within the context of what it was designed to do.

    As I said earlier, rams are very cheap. Rams are effective against wooden walls. Rams are meant to be used very early on. The thing they’re designed to counter, the wall, is already weak enough in its current state. My own experience with them is that they’re useful early on but drop off substantially, much like other early game units. They fit the role they were designed for and so I see no need to buff them.

    #192076

    NINJEW
    Member

    Alternatively, I could just bring the topic up and different people could weigh in their ideas. There’s like 8 active threads on this forum, that’s not so many that some kind of Thread OP Standard needs to be introduced. Just let people fucking talk in their discussion forum.

    #192092

    Sharpnessism
    Member

    Alternatively, I could just bring the topic up and different people could weigh in their ideas. There’s like 8 active threads on this forum, that’s not so many that some kind of Thread OP Standard needs to be introduced. Just let people fucking talk in their discussion forum.

    Why are you so mad? Because Bouh disagreed with your suggestion? You ignore all his specific points regarding the ram and focus on attacking him and whatever irrelevant unsubstantiated statements he made.

    This forum is the “balance forum”, not the “spam complaints/suggestions until some get through” forum, which is what it has become.

    The devs have limited resources and limited hours with which they can browse the forum and implement changes.

    Already in the first page Tombles said he could make the unit tankier, despite there being only 3 people agreeing on the topic by that point. I really like it when devs listen to the community, but it is not a good idea to go with everything that is posted. The majority of the community should first come to an agreement that there is a problem and possible solution(s) before changes are made. Even then, usually there are vocal minorities so changes should be made with discretion.

    You know but a lot more game have been killed and abandoned only because devs didn’t hear community suggestions.

    One of the main reasons most game devs don’t listen to their suggestion/balance forums is because of the amount of inane, misdirected topics that are posted daily.

    Topics that are made without sufficient thought and evidence; topics that are made by whim and singular experience; and topics that are unproductive in nature because they invent problems rather than solve them all contribute to devs not listening to the community.

    #192113

    NINJEW
    Member

    I imagine that Tombles would have tested it himself first before putting it in a patch.

    What’s with your weird crusade against people complaining about things in a balance forum? The whole point is literally that people come in here to talk about stuff that they don’t think it powerful enough/is too powerful, because that’s what balance is. That this comes in the form of short complaints rather than college essays is probably a by product of holy shit it’s just a fucking forum man, who cares.

    Why are you so mad? Because Bouh disagreed with your suggestion? You ignore all his specific points regarding the ram and focus on attacking him and whatever irrelevant unsubstantiated statements he made.

    Dude as a result of this thread I disagree with my suggestion, it was pretty cool how I brought the topic up and everyone talked about it and then I came away with a lot of knowledge that I had never considered.

    I attacked Bouh’s irrelevant unsubstantiated statements because they were irrelevant and unsubstantiated? If you don’t think telling someone that they’re being an idiot is worthwhile, I don’t know why you’re in here complaining about my posts. You should probably take your own advice, and keep your chatter to Balance Discussions if that’s the kind of point you want to make.

    #192116

    jb
    Member

    I agree that rams are fine as is.

    I use them a lot. (4) rams can typically take out any neutral outpost/village of the AI. Four turns and 200g? What a deal. You might have to cast a spell, but often not. (4) irregulars can not always duplicate this. No barracks required.

    As for the larger debate on this thread, I believe the concern is too many changes too fast. Before the effects of a change can be fully explored, the next change is already implemented.

    Already in the first page Tombles said he could make the unit tankier, despite there being only 3 people agreeing on the topic by that point.

    Such a good observation.

    #192120

    Zaskow
    Member

    As for the larger debate on this thread, I believe the concern is too many changes too fast. Before the effects of a change can be fully explored, the next change is already implemented.

    Active stage of balancing ends in 2 month. That’s why…

    #192122

    Sharpnessism
    Member

    I imagine that Tombles would have tested it himself first before putting it in a patch.

    What’s with your weird crusade against people complaining about things in a balance forum? The whole point is literally that people come in here to talk about stuff that they don’t think it powerful enough/is too powerful, because that’s what balance is. That this comes in the form of short complaints rather than college essays is probably a by product of holy shit it’s just a fucking forum man, who cares.

    You answered your own question with your first statement. A dev has to implement it and test it, meaning he has to use time and effort.

    You are the one who is going on a crusade. Look at the number of posts you have made compared to everyone else lmao.

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Sharpnessism wrote:</div>
    Why are you so mad? Because Bouh disagreed with your suggestion? You ignore all his specific points regarding the ram and focus on attacking him and whatever irrelevant unsubstantiated statements he made.

    Dude as a result of this thread I disagree with my suggestion, it was pretty cool how I brought the topic up and everyone talked about it and then I came away with a lot of knowledge that I had never considered.

    I attacked Bouh’s irrelevant unsubstantiated statements because they were irrelevant and unsubstantiated? If you don’t think telling someone that they’re being an idiot is worthwhile, I don’t know why you’re in here complaining about my posts. You should probably take your own advice, and keep your chatter to Balance Discussions if that’s the kind of point you want to make.

    Yes you attack the statements that are not at all related to the topic (his personal opinions) instead of addressing his legitimate points…

    It is ironic in that you want to shut down my suggestion of having more productive topics, yet you say you want to encourage discussion.

    Hey why don’t you discuss my suggestion instead of going on a crusade against it?

    #192129

    NINJEW
    Member

    I think he’s right about Rams, sure? I said as much.

    Is he right about being the only person who has anything worthwhile to say about any balance discussion? lol

    You answered your own question with your first statement. A dev has to implement it and test it, meaning he has to use time and effort.

    Yes, I imagine he does that because he thinks the matter is worth looking into.

    I’m pretty sure people should be allowed to post in a forum without worrying about how that will affect the efficiency of the devs. I’d think that’s probably one of the last things anyone should be concerned with, with the exception of the devs themselves.

    #192133

    jb
    Member

    Active stage of balancing ends in 2 month. That’s why…

    I see.

    What does the inactive stage of balancing look like? I don’t understand how the timetable works…

    #192142

    Zaskow
    Member

    What does the inactive stage of balancing look like? I don’t understand how the timetable works…

    Read this. There was long period before Golden Realms without patches, except fixes of critical stuff.
    Anyway, devs can’t support game forever, they could pay attention onto new IP.
    Ideal variant when dev release modding tools with big functionality and true fans will continue development the game.

    #193194

    ariga
    Member

    Ram are Great but u use them on a rush strat it’s like irregular do you spam irregulare turn 100+? i don t think so ram go their use to take a city before u get treb. since u can clean wood wall very quick & still can kill stone wall if the guy got the upgrade early. and killing avoid removing the 50% line of sight penalty(+allow melee unit to go through the wall without needing to take risk getting flank by 2 side trying to put down door(which can be also blocked by a 1 unit while archer & support rape you) make the battle totally different.
    Also ram got much hp & armor so they are very good on open field, to make unit waste hit before you use ram to hit, i use to use it to exhaust the dangerous unit(forcing them to hit the ram before i use it to hit since atk cost only 1 AP u can use all mouvement to take hit before hit enemy). It saved my ass on many of my fight to have a ram instead of any other T1 or T2 unit.
    Also the I don t rush so they don’t Need ram why would u take a knife(Ram) when u can get a gun(Treb)

    #193225

    vyolin
    Member

    that writing

    What happened to proper writing? Put some effort in your typing, or I won’t put any more effort in trying decyphering it, for god’s sake.

    As I noted elsewhere, fielding arguments pertaining to issues beyond the balance horizon of ~100 turns is not worth it, even less so for early T1 units.

    As it stands, the ram is not bad in and of itself, it is just obsolete. There is no genuine need for it. So giving it some thematic extra, like it providing full cover against ranged attacks, or it being able to ‘leech’ movement points from your infantry to get it to the walls quicker, might help alleviate that.

    #193588

    ariga
    Member

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>ariga wrote:</div>
    that writing

    What happened to proper writing? Put some effort in your typing, or I won’t put any more effort in trying decyphering it, for god’s sake.

    As I noted elsewhere, fielding arguments pertaining to issues beyond the balance horizon of ~100 turns is not worth it, even less so for early T1 units.

    As it stands, the ram is not bad in and of itself, it is just obsolete. There is no genuine need for it. So giving it some thematic extra, like it providing full cover against ranged attacks, or it being able to ‘leech’ movement points from your infantry to get it to the walls quicker, might help alleviate that.

    Your only Argument is that i didn’t write well because it was 9:30 am & i didnt sleep? i forgot many “,” & “.” but still easy to understand if you try. So don’t try to look smarter with smashing down ppl for the spelling.

    #193799

    Bouh
    Member

    As it stands, the ram is not bad in and of itself, it is just obsolete. There is no genuine need for it. So giving it some thematic extra, like it providing full cover against ranged attacks, or it being able to ‘leech’ movement points from your infantry to get it to the walls quicker, might help alleviate that.

    You are mistakening “I don’t find any use for this unit” with “this unit is bad”.

    The problem with balance forums is that most people are insanely bad at balancing, because like vyolin they mistaken what they want and what they see with what is balanced or good for the game.

    The problem with forum cries is that when too many cryers invade a forum, devs may not have the time to clean up the bullshit they bring, and when bullshit wear fancy dresses because idiots who pretend themselves good (and who mmay be good) but have no clue about how balance work, devs can be convinced nonetheless.

    There is also the saddest problem of grumbler bias (and being french I know very well how people can grumble for nothing) : only unhappy people will grumble, the happy ones are busy playing. So on a forum you read incredibly far more grumblers than happy people.

    In the end, we have grumbler, wanna be game designers, idiots and people who would like the game differently, all crying for changes, and dev reading that only all day long. It comes a time when they finaly get convinced by insanities, because everyone but the most zealot and fanatics can be convinced when you hammer something long enough in his head. That is the principle of conditioning. So devs get convinced, and they make stupid changes.

    Like buffing rams, which will alter the balance between them and T1 units and sieges.

    #193868

    NINJEW
    Member

    Please don’t pretend you’re the only person with a correct and valid opinion. I wouldn’t trust anyone here to have good knowledge of how proper balancing works, except maybe the Devs, because that is Their Job. This forum probably doesn’t exist so The Perfect Balance Changes can come out of it, it’s probably just here so people who find one thing they’re slightly unhappy about have a place to bring it up and have that commentated on by others. You don’t need to dress up the Sanctity of the Balance Forum up in anything special, because there really doesn’t need to be any standards to dictate that ~only intelligent people who have achieved true understanding of balance may have their voices heard~ because that’s fucking stupid.

    Let people grumble in the grumble forum, let the Devs be the ones to worry about whether or not their paid time is being spent effectively, or if the changes that they decide to implement will be worth it.

    I still have yet to hear about these terrible balance changes that the devs have made that have gotten you so upset, nor what your proposed ways of fixing them are. Why don’t you become a grumbler? Show the rest of us what ~correct and proper balance ability~ looks like, because right now you’re kinda just calling for everyone in this whole balance forum to just shut up because ~you don’t like what they have to say~

    #193872

    NINJEW
    Member

    New Balance Forum Rule: Only Those Who Have Achieved Total Balance Enlightenment Will Be Permitted Posting Privileges

    The Great Balance Buddha Bouh Will Preside Over The Balance Forum, And Personally Determine Who Among The Unenlightened Masses Is Truly Worthy Of Proper Balance Discussion

    #193911

    Brothritis
    Member

    Ninjew, you’re a loose cannon and you’ve gone off the book for the last time. You’re off the Balance Force. Hand in your scale and your sword.

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