Rebalance of existing elements in next patch.

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Rebalance of existing elements in next patch.

This topic contains 754 replies, has 44 voices, and was last updated by  ExNihil 7 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #109307

    ExNihil
    Member

    EDITING NOTE: This has been a huge thread with many good discussions and even more horrible arguments. At the conclusion of the discussion I have begun to create seperate threads for the different topics that came up during the discussions here.

    Links to the new threads:

    Race Threads:

    ORC Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/orc-balance-discussion/

    GOBLIN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/goblin-balance-discussion/

    HUMAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/human-balance-discussion/

    HIGH-ELF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/high-elf-balance-discussion/

    DRACONIAN Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/draconian-balance-discussion/

    DWARF Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwarf-balance-discussion/

    Class Threads:

    ROGUE Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rogue-balance-discussion/

    SORCERER Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/sorcerer-balance-discussion/

    THEOCRAT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/theocrat-balance-discussion/

    DREADNOUGHT Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dreadnought-balance-discussion/

    ARCHDRUID Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/archdruid-balance-discussion/

    WARLORD Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/warlord-balance-discussion/

    Topical Threads:

    Random Map Generator, Underground and Map Elements Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rmg-ug-and-map-elements-balance-discussion/

    Blight, Spirit, Machines and Theocrat: Some Community Questions: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/blight-spirit-machines-and-theo-some-community-questions/

    Dwellings, Taverns and Bandits!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/dwellings-taverns-and-bandits/

    AI and Auto-Combat Balance Discussion (SP and MP): http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/auto-combat-balance-discussion/

    Support Units Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/support-units-balance-discussion/

    Leader/Heroes Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/leaderheroes-balance-discussion/

    Heal and Sustain Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/the-heal-or-sustain-issue/

    Assorted Topics Balance Discussion: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/asorted-topics-balance-discussion/

    Misc. Threads:
    Ballista!: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/ballista/ (<– This is a unit suggestion rather than a balance discussion)

    ————————-
    ORIGINAL POST:

    Hey Guys,

    In hope of seeing a new big patch soon I wanna post a list of some stuff that in my opinion really needs rebalancing:

    1. Dispel Magic on Heros / Supports needs to get a cool-down or even become a 1 use ability.

    2. Blind needs to have a turn limit and possibly should not effect casting.

    3. Berserk needs to be nerfed a bit, i suggest decreasing the roll.

    4. Charm Animal should be expanded to include monsters.

    5. Cure Disease is currently completely useless, i suggest removing this trait until proper diseases are introduced into the game.

    6. Warlord needs to have a summonable scouting unit (even Arch-Druid can summon flying units, in t2 summons).

    7. Dread fire resistance makes dread very op, i suggest removing the fire resistance of machines to balance a bit their resistance to mind control, spirit, blight and stunning (shock weakness does not balance out here).

    8. Rapid reload needs to have a cooldown.

    9. Repair Machine needs to have a cooldown (like heal), as now it allows using some rather trollish tactics in many circumstances, and makes using magic against machines quite useless in early-mid game.

    10. Magical Structures need to be nerfed a bit as atm sorcerer gets overwhelming amounts of mana (especially in comparison with druid).

    11. Animstic Knowledge needs to appear a bit earlier and in an easier slot, as some games it becomes very hard to find it before late game making druid very weak indeed.

    #109328

    ariga
    Member

    I might add Goblin need to be improved. their unit got no hp & get easily kill in auto, the blight resistance only good against other gob they have mainly blight dmg useless against undead unit making it very hard to clean some camp & epic treasure. Their Hero are the worse whit the bonus they have. swarm dater get too easy os by anything.

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by  President.
    #109403

    Dohlenmann
    Member

    ExNihil, that’s a great list. I can agree with nearly everything on it.

    For Dispel, a cooldown time would be sufficient.

    Rapid Reload doesn’t need a cooldown in my book, because that bascially for what you need the technician. And while you’ve limited space in your armies (6 units only) I think it is ok if this dude can keep his main ability.

    #109410

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    It would be wrong to balance with a view on autocombat.

    #109411

    ariga
    Member

    they also die easy on manual but when u played the game 450hour or more u start to know how to avoid unit to die, on all manual i almost never lose unit of the game exept against player

    #109414

    Bouh
    Member

    1) Dispel system is being revamped.
    2) Blind is fine, thank you.
    3) Warlord don’t need any nerf, thank you.
    4) Maybe some monsters could be animals, but I’m not sure charm animals should work on all monsters.
    5) Or cure disease could see an improvment. This have been discussed already and there might be something for it with the dispel revamp.
    6) I’m not sure the warlord should lose some of his identity. If it’s really required, the best IMO is to swap monster hunter with berzerker in the unit tree.
    7) Are you talking about the hero ability ? I don’t understand why this would be a problem, because rogue or archdruid blight resistance skill does the same with elves. And if it’s not this, the only dreadnaught machine with fire resistance is the flame tank and there is already a thread in the balance subforum discussing it.
    8) Coldown on rapid reload would defeat the purpose of rapid reload and engineer.
    9) There are many trollish tactics. Repair machine only repair 15hp on a unit which doesn’t repair itself otherwise. Not to mention 15hp/turn is very low considering the damage you can inflict.
    10) A sorcerer without mana is a dead sorcerer. I’m not sure the sorcerer needs another nerf after all he already got.
    11) Druid is not weak in any way, thank you.

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by  President.
    #109425

    Griffith
    Member

    1. Dispell Magic is going to get % chance to succeed. I think that should be enough, if the chance to succeed depends on the effect(s) being dispelled.

    2. I agree. Blind should have a duration of 4-5 turns. I think it’s fine that it affects casting though.

    3. Hmm, not sure about this. Berserk is strong, but at least you cant cast it 3 times with a single casting upgrade like you can blind.

    5. Cure disease seems pretty useless. I’d suggest to add a healing effect to it (6-10 health). This would make goblins bit more useful in general.

    8. Dunno if reload machine needs a cooldown.

    9. Repair machine should have a cooldown I agree. Maybe similar mechanism as in healing (20 points, 2 turns cooldown). Or 15 points, 1 turn cooldown.

    10. Mmhmm.. I do run out of mana sometimes with Sorcerer, so I dont think its super powerful. But on the other hand, I think sorcerer should have to struggle a bit with their mana reserves, like capture mana structures etc more focusedly, use generate mana on towns.. Now I rarely need to do that, so maybe some change could be in order. Alternatively, maybe shrine and temple could give less mana for sorcerer?

    The rest of the ExNihils suggestions I don’t have strong opinion of.

    I’d like to suggest few other things though:

    12. Production overflow. It would make sense to me if the exceed production would overflow from one item to the next in production queue. Then you wouldnt need to select so carefully what unit you can build in how many turns, cause the production would stay stable. Additionally, it would make production of low tier units more attractive at late game / high production towns, cause you could potentially make few units / turn.

    13. Research overflow. Same as above, except you’d get the exceed research points to spend in your next turn to an item of your choice.

    #109438

    Shaithias
    Member

    Blind should have a duration of 3 turns, affect casting and should have 100% to succeed, and should cost a bit more. I recommend 10 mana vs 8.

    Dispel magic defensively for supports and leader/heroes should be 3 turn cool down based, offensive dispels in all cases should require the dispelling hero/support to be next to the target and if the target is dispelled, the target should take 1 damage across all damage channels + 15% per buff dispelled to stun target for 1 turn.

    New magic: Buff, castable by leaders that causes any dispel on the target to lashback at the dispeller dealing 1 damage across all damage channels for every buff dispelled +15% to stun for 1, and prevents dispel damage to the one who was dispelled

    Berserk is ok where its at roll wise, suggest making berserked units targetable by offensive capabilities(stun roots slow etc), and having the berserked unit move at end of turn instead of at beginning.

    Charm animal should not be usable on monsters, but some monsters should be reclassified as animals. Charm animal should not be able to be used on a succubus or a shadow stalker for example, or for that matter on the warlord t4. That being said, charm animal should work on spiders.

    Cure disease does not need to be removed from game. However, existing “diseases” (spirit breaking, weakness, etc) that the blight doctors have need to be spread around among various non goblin units and turned into push button abilities.

    Warlords absolutely need a scout. They also absolutely need a late game nerf to the free gold medals. What is the point of medals when you can just cast a spell? It defeats the purpose of elite troops, progression, and keeping units alive to fight another day. Perhaps, the buff should make them fight with stats as if they had a gold medal, but not actually award them a gold medal. That way, when it is dispelled, its gone and doesn’t… linger.

    Dread fire resistance usually comes from forge aprons, a leader trait. The only innate fire resistance is the flame tanks. I think the flame tanks should have 10 less hp, but 2 more armor. This way, they are easier to repair, and more susceptible (comparatively) to magic attacks.

    Rapid reload is fine. Engineers need a buffing spell that adds +1 armor, adds +20% lightning resist, and repairs for 10hp to target machine, usable once per battle.

    Repair machine is fine.

    Magical structures does not need a nerf, but there does need to be a change to sorc spamming and it needs to be done elsewhere. Perhaps summons should cut into the active tactical casting pool of the summoner as well as cutting into the available mana per turn. At the same time, maybe let the palace building of the capital unlock an extra 10 cp. Regardless, spells like summoner’s domain, warding glyphs and the magical walls are really underutilized by sorcerers who spend all their upkeep mana on summons. The sorcerer needs a rework to make it cost effective to spend mana on defensive city buffs/offensive strategic debuffs, and expensive to field an army of summons outside of his own domain. An example of this would be that summoner’s domain costs 50 mana to cast, reduces the mana upkeep of a unit by 75% BUT the mana upkeep of non wisps is increased by a drastic amount (like 100%) so you can have your eldritch abominations swimming happily in your domain for 16 mana per turn, but outside of the domain, they cost 64 mana to upkeep. This means that summoners would be somewhat limited from roaming stacks of summons.

    Animistic knowledge needs to appear earlier

    Rogue poison mastery needs to be switched from a spell to a passive upgrade.
    Urban cover needs to be removed from game, and scoundrels should get default urban concealment. Scoundrels should receive some sort of buff allowing them to reach gold easier. Trained killers is an inherent part of rogue strategy, but auto combat is very unkind to scoundrels. You are lucky if you can get 3 scoundrels to gold in a game. Rogues need a way to counter the continuous scoundrel death and loss of scoundrel xp. Suggestions are as follows: direct stats buff, like +def. AI buff that makes scoundrels try to shoot from max range at all times or an xp buff that decreases shots fired between medals.

    New rogue ability: Terrifying mask. Ability, not spell. 5 turn cooldown. If an enemy melee attacks a target that has Terrifying mask active, they will be feared (guaranteed) for two turns. Terrifying mask duration: 1 turns. It is an alternative to defensive stance, not an offensive ability. Scoundrels have it, and heroes can specialize for it.

    #109441

    This thread makes me smile.

    #109446

    Wintersend
    Member

    I am just going to address points 7, 8, and 9 since I normally play Dreadnaught so these are the ones I have the most knowledge about.

    As far as I know, only flame tanks get fire resist, which makes sense considering they shoot cones of fire.

    I do not think that rapid reload needs a cool down, it is one of the few reasons to use engineers late-game and, if it had a cool down, it would generally be better to make a second copy of whatever the unit you would use rapid reload on because using a 4 round example with one engineer and one cannon it would go something like this, round 1 cannon fires, round 2 engineer reloads, cannon fires, round 3 nothing, round 4 cannon fires. so three shots in total. With two cannons it would go similar to this, round 1 both cannons fire, round 2 nothing, round 3 cannons fire, round 4 nothing. so they get 4 shots in only 3 rounds as opposed to 3 shots in 4 rounds.

    While repair machines may need a cooldown, I do not think it should be higher than 1 turn. This is because, without going to a large city, one cannot repair machines.

    Another possible solution would be to have repair machines not be able to repair above a certain % of a machines hit points, say 75% as an example. I am aware that this sounds odd but it could basically mean that using the repair machines ability is the same as conducting a field repair, which would never be quite as effective as going into a specially built workshop for repairs. This would keep repair machines powerful, but allow semi-permanent damage to machines. This may not be a good idea, it is just something that I thought of and I thought it would be good to have another possible solution, so feel free to reject or modify my idea.

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by  President.
    #109450

    Bob5
    Member

    I don’t think Repair machine needs a cooldown. Yes it can be spammed in combat, but the ability is in practice Dreadnought Hero-only, which prevents it from being spammed across multiple units on the field like Theocrats can do with support units.

    #109493

    Wintersend
    Member

    Yeah, I thought that cooldown may not be needed, that is why I also suggested some kind of max percentage of health that can be repaired with repair machines, I only put in 75% as an arbitrary value. I figured that something like this might be useful even if just as more of a roleplaying aspect to represent that it is patching up major armor damage but that fine repairs can not be done outside of a specialized workshop. This may not be needed either, it was just something I was tossing out there for evaluation.

    #109533

    ExNihil
    Member

    Ok, i’ll try to reply in one post, so I’ll go by the points.

    1. I think dispel needs a cool down on supports and adding a chance % is gr8. Shiathias proposal here sounds interesting, but as always amigo the mechanics you offer are unrealistically complex and so I think the dev team won’t go for them. I further think that dispel magic should, like the new disjunct, be an inbuilt spell that does not require research. So here one might think of a revamped dispel magic that can be researched and which gives an increased dispelling chance and so forth.

    2. Blind needs nerfing cause in early game, or if a player for some reason has no dispel magic, it becomes incredibly op. There was one game I had with abednegojc a few months back where I Managed to blind all of his 4 heroes in 4 consecutive rounds and he had no dispel, and thus no magic.

    3. Berserk is op for cost / duration. I suggest the cost be increased or the duration decreased, or the roll lowered. In early game even a single successful berserk can change a battle completely, let alone multiple ones.

    4. Charm Animal should in my opinion be used on monsters for the following reasons: 1. Atm it affects only t1 units including crows and nothing else – these units appear as independents or as Arch Druid summons. Arch druid summons receive mind control immunity from a tech very quickly, and thus this ability is further nullified in actual pvp combat. 2. All class t4 units (not giants) have mind control immunity automatically and all t3 monsters once levelled receive it, thus expanding charm animal to include monsters shouldn’t be a problem. I think convert should be limited to humanoid creatures only that actually have a religion, and charm animal expanded to include monsters. Dominate might be retained as present as it has an inbuilt turn limit in combat.

    5. Consensus about cure disease being useless. Shaithias actually had a constructive point here :).

    6. Scouts for warlords seem to be a consensus point. I agree with Shaithias about the late game warlord nerf being necessary. I suggest something along the lines of order of sacred support but for infantry and cavalry units, appearing earlier and being a static ability rather than a spell.

    7. Fire-tank needs innate fire resistance removed. I also suggest reducing the blight and spirit resistance of all machine units – these make human priests and goblins quite useless, and disregards the fact that these machines are supposedly controlled by organic operators who are not completely resistant to these traits.

    8. In my opinion rapid reload needs a cool down of 1 turn, which would mean that the combination of engineer + cannon or musket will fire 2 turns in a row, then cool down 1 turn and engineer can fire blunderbuss, then 2 turns again. Shaithias proposal of adding some extra abilities to engineers sounds nice, but the spell u suggest is extremely op – 20% shock resist + armor and repair machine! Perhaps a 1 time use of repair machine could do.

    9. Repair machine without cool down is very op atm, I have played with and against this trait many many times, and I have seen it abused in many ways. Bouh’s point that there are many trollish tactics says nothing about this trait. As I said in my opinion it needs to function like heal with a 2 turn cool down, but even a 1 turn cool down will do in most circumstances.

    10. Magical structures needs nerfing to +2 or +3 rather then +5. Atm sorcerer can out produce any other class with the given amounts of Mana that come from magical structures. In comparison Arch Druid is much more constrained and is always in need of Mana. Another option is to restrict magical structures only to those treasure sites that usually give Mana.

    11. Consensus about animistic knowledge. I would like to further suggest that the maintenance costs of all druid units, with the exception of gods, will be split between Mana and gold – monsters and animals need to actually eat and are not purely magical. This will balance out the shortage of Mana Arch Druid usually feels from early on (relative to sorcerer).

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by  President.
    #109541

    Bob5
    Member

    I really disagree with Repair Machine being OP atm. A hero repairing a machine is a hero that is not doing anything else, like launching powerful fire bombs (Dread heroes with Fire Bomb, Inflict Immolation, and like +4 ranged boost are quite scary because ranged boost boosts both fire damage and the physical damage) or firing musket. It’s only 15HP, a T1 infantry unit or a T1 archer usually can do more damage than that in a single turn, and you’re using your hero, which is usually a powerful unit, to neutralise 15HP. Repairing machines all the time with your hero also really makes the hero level dramatically slow since it only gives like 3 exp.

    #109546

    ExNihil
    Member

    Bob5, what u described is a level 8 dread hero. Repair machine is the op in mid-early game. By late game its usually less critical, although it can b.

    #109554

    Bouh
    Member

    1. Dispel mecanic is being revamped. You should look at the thread talking about it to discuss this. This apply to 2&3 too.

    2&3 : these spells are not OP. You might think they are OP because you look at them in the isolation of a battle without considering the whole picture and the strategical level. Point 6 is the same, and I will extend more after the list.

    7. Again, there’s a thread in the balance subforum talking about flame tanks. To me, there only problem might be that they are a tier3 unit available earlier than most tier3.

    8. Rapid reload is not too powerful. The best it does is copying a unit, but the engineer is more fragile than any unit he can “copy”, and if the “copyed” unit die, the engineer is then easily killed. And with a rapid reload hero, it’s the same, the only difference is that the hero power makes the ability not worth using more of the time.

    9. This is here the same than with rapid reload in worse. Tacticaly, the trollish tactic only works against the AI. Against a human, repairing 15hp on a machine is usualy worthless unless you hugely overpower your ennemy, in which case he can surrender to deny you the trollish machine heal. Strategicaly, 15hp per turn is not that much, moreover when only heroes have this ability.

    10. Sorcerer doesn’t need any nerf to his economy. Any experience is largely dependant on map setting. Did you account for this experimental parameter ? I highly doubt it.

    11. Archdruid still doesn’t need any buff.

    Back to the tactical vs strategical view of things. Many people when talking about balance only look at things in isolation. Balancing with such a short sight is the best way to make things a lot worse than before AND all the same, killing any flavour classes can have. Most of the time, stratical things >>> tactical things, unless the tactical advantage is high enough.

    In application, blind is not that overpowered to me because it’s only a tactical advantage and it’s highly unreliable (almost impossible to blind a defending hero). Tacticaly, the rogue have no strong units and is a kind of sorcerer without summons. Remove the powerful spells, and you disarm the rogue.

    The warlord is an odd beast. Many see the lack of summonable flying scout as crippling for the warlord. The thing is that scouting is indeed important and can have huge consequences because it’s an important *strategical” tool. Yet, tacticaly, the warlord is the best IMO, and this from the begining and this because of his spells and powerful class units. This is the strategical tool of the warlord and with his spells and units, he is powerful enough IMO to survive early game until his war machine set up. Nerfing the late game make no sense then, because this is the strategic power of the warlord : a powerful war machine you can only outmanoeuver and outsmart, or break before it’s running. Scouting is the achille’s heel of the warlord. Remove it and you will need to make him the same as any other class. Giving a flying summonable scout to the warlord would instantly make him absurdly OP if you don’t change *all* his units and abilities. And hence why you might see berzerk as OP. This is indeed strong (although only in early game, because most of the time it will waste more mana than anything else), but it only compensate for the lack of scout.

    If any, I would try to make the warlord work without scout than give a scout to the warlord and nerf the shit out of him to balance the mess it will cause.

    #109560

    Shaithias
    Member

    What the warlord needs is a unit that can walk over water, and is very very weak. I am thinking something titled “tactical recon” or maybe give swimming to monster hunters. This would give warlord the ability to run a unit out without having to watch it die to random mobs attacking it.

    #109561

    madmac
    Member

    Monster Hunters already have swimming.

    #109562

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well Bouh, I will reply in short starting with point 10.

    I have never played with you so I have no indication of your level of skill or experience and there isnt of course any reason why you would have an indication of mine.

    I can earnestly state that I have played at least 250 hours (very conservative estimate) MP of sorcerer (out of 750 hours of total MP time), and I think I have pretty much exhausted most game possibilities. I therefore think I accounted for experience in writing my opinion regarding magic structures (or perhaps I misunderstood your intention?).

    Regarding points 1-3, I don’t see a reason why i cant discuss these here – you seem upset or at least nonplussed, but I will certainly take a look in the other forum threads you mentioned. As for what you wrote about points 2-3, specifically your saying that “You might think they are OP because you look at them in the isolation of a battle without considering the whole picture and the strategical level,” I must say this is a bit condescending on your behalf – you didn’t really bother questioning what I think any further and simply presumed to know what I think, why and how. As such please explain why in your opinion blind and berserk are not OP?

    Regarding point 8 I disagree with you and remain unconvinced, my problem is not with the engineers but rather with rapid reload having no cooldown. Dread alongside Sorcerer is the strongest class in the game, nerfing it a bit is necessary IMO.I dont suggest removing rapid reload, only putting a 1 turn cool down on this ability, which might go along with making engineers slightly more powerful or giving them extra traits like repair machine.

    Regarding point 9. Well you’ve completely lost me. Trolling is something you can do only to humans, you cannot troll the AI. But lets leave the word trolling aside. Its OP IMO because in early game when dread hero is combined with trebs in siege war early on it is completely out of balance (especially with multiple dread heros, but even 1 will do sometimes) – i suggest you try against some human players and see the possibilities before telling me im wrong (if you want friend me on steam and I will play with you.)

    Regarding point 6. I disagree with you about warlord – sharply. In my experience it is the second weakest class in the game. The scout is just the first weakness of this class and the one that makes it very weak for many types of games and map types. Saying that the gold medal buff appears very late in the game, my suggestion would actually make warlord stronger, while removing an annoying and imba element that also hurts the fun side of things (as Shaithias wrote).

    #109567

    Lightform
    Member

    1) Agree to large cooldown

    2) Agree to both, turn limit should be long like 4 – 8 turns

    3) I think the warlord needs this spell. It might be a little OP, but I do know that it needs a better pay off if it fails. Currently the difference between it working or not makes or breaks a combat in a lot of instances.

    4) Agree

    5) Agree

    6) Agree. I only play WL and do feel that they need a scout, NO ! monster hunters don’t work. They cost gold, city production time and have limited vision.

    7) I have no exp.

    8) Agree

    9) Agree

    10) 11) I have no exp.

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by  President.
    #109569

    4. Charm Animal should in my opinion be used on monsters for the following reasons: 1. Atm it affects only t1 units including crows and nothing else – these units appear as independents or as Arch Druid summons. Arch druid summons receive mind control immunity from a tech very quickly, and thus this ability is further nullified in actual pvp combat. 2. All class t4 units (not giants) have mind control immunity automatically and all t3 monsters once levelled receive it, thus expanding charm animal to include monsters shouldn’t be a problem. I think convert should be limited to humanoid creatures only that actually have a religion, and charm animal expanded to include monsters. Dominate might be retained as present as it has an inbuilt turn limit in combat.

    You could rename it “charm”, and have it limited to animals and monsters. convert should work with everything, as there are many stories about religious figures taming animals magically (Daniel in the Lions den, for instance). If convert were not magical, you wouldn’t need dispel to remove it.

    Regarding point 6. I disagree with you about warlord – sharply. In my experience it is the second weakest class in the game.

    second weakest? What class, in your opinion, is the weakest?

    I don’t think the Archdruid needs early game buffs: High Elf Hunters/Draconian hunters (with some elders) and flamers give them highly mass-able built units. This makes them quite equal to the sorcerer (although the sorcerer does have better early scouting).

    #109574

    Griffith
    Member

    In response to Bouh’s post:

    these spells are not OP. You might think they are OP because you look at them in the isolation of a battle without considering the whole picture and the strategical level. Point 6 is the same, and I will extend more after the list.

    There are two main reasons why blind and berserk seem bit off to me (especially blind). First reason is that theyre common starting spells with warlord or rogue hero (you dont often need any points to research them). Other reason is that they’re very cheap to cast in comparison for their power. You can easily take out 2-3 units in battle just by having that that single spell in your hero at beginning. There are no other starting spells like that to my knowledge. It’s bit of a dice game, and can end badly for some1 especially at early stages.

    Also, why does rogue and warlord heroes start with the strongest spells? 🙂

    On the other hand, rogue and warlord leaders need all the help they can get. My main issue is with the mentioned heroes, not the leader classes themselves. So maybe making blind and berserk more difficult to get for heroes would be what I’m suggesting.

    Sorcerer doesn’t need any nerf to his economy. Any experience is largely dependant on map setting. Did you account for this experimental parameter ? I highly doubt it.

    Only setting where sorcerer wouldnt get a huge bonus from magical structures would be that there werent any income structures on the map. But that would make for a very dull map, wouldnt it?

    In regards to flame tank issue, I think it makes sense that they have fire resistance. I still think they’re kinda op though, the area of effect of their flame throwing is just massive (and they can use it every turn unlike other dread machines). But maybe that’s better discussed on the other thread.

    In regards to the repair machine ability, 15 point repair dont seem too much in general. But in certain siege situations, it can get bit broken. In a siege battle with some trebuchets and like 2 dread heroes, you can just bomb the opponent from their walls, without them being able to do much about it. (you cant harm the trebuchets more than they can be healed / turn) So I think that’s what ExNihil is referring to.

    That is unless opponent has trebuchets too.. Or you can always charge, but thats usually disadvantageous.

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by  President.
    #109600

    Bouh
    Member

    I can earnestly state that I have played at least 250 hours (very conservative estimate) MP of sorcerer (out of 750 hours of total MP time), and I think I have pretty much exhausted most game possibilities. I therefore think I accounted for experience in writing my opinion regarding magic structures (or perhaps I misunderstood your intention?).

    I wasn’t questioning your playing experience or your knowledge of the game. I was stating that if you are used to play the same kind of games your experience will be biased. In my experience, the sorcerer is hard pressed on mana early on until he get this research, but this research doesn’t come before mid game and only allows to sustain the growth of magic power of the sorcerer but I never swim in rivers of mana. Is my experience significative ? No. Is your experience significative ? I don’t know. That is the question I am asking actually : your count of hours doesn’t really matter, what matter is the number of games you did and the setting you set.

    And after that, the experience doesn’t actually matter, what matter is what you tell about the experience, but for this you need to put words on it and explain how you deduced it.

    Regarding points 1-3, I don’t see a reason why i cant discuss these here – you seem upset or at least nonplussed, but I will certainly take a look in the other forum threads you mentioned. As for what you wrote about points 2-3, specifically your saying that “You might think they are OP because you look at them in the isolation of a battle without considering the whole picture and the strategical level,” I must say this is a bit condescending on your behalf – you didn’t really bother questioning what I think any further and simply presumed to know what I think, why and how. As such please explain why in your opinion blind and berserk are not OP?

    These questions have already been discussed on the forum. If I am condescending to answer this, how condescending are you you who didn’t bothered reading what people already wrote ? How do you look you who state things without any argument in your first thread, presenting you like if you know everything and hold the truth so you don’t even have to backup your claims ? I don’t mean to offend you here, but you started this thread and you ask for these spells to be nerfed because they would be *obviously* OP. They are not OP to me because they are chance based, and my reference to the short sight was a possible explanation for why I think one might find them OP as I had no argument to discuss.

    They are powerful spells, but why should powerful spells disappear from the game ? There are other balance factors, and eventhough heroes can get these spells early, considering they are chance based and leave the hero vulnerable to flanking and spells, I don’t think they are too powerful.

    Regarding point 8 I disagree with you and remain unconvinced, my problem is not with the engineers but rather with rapid reload having no cooldown. Dread alongside Sorcerer is the strongest class in the game, nerfing it a bit is necessary IMO.I dont suggest removing rapid reload, only putting a 1 turn cool down on this ability, which might go along with making engineers slightly more powerful or giving them extra traits like repair machine.

    Why would rapid reload be too strong ? I fail to see this and you never argumented it. To me it’s never stronger than the unit it copy so it’s only a bit cheaper for a lot less resilience.

    Regarding point 9. Well you’ve completely lost me. Trolling is something you can do only to humans, you cannot troll the AI. But lets leave the word trolling aside. Its OP IMO because in early game when dread hero is combined with trebs in siege war early on it is completely out of balance (especially with multiple dread heros, but even 1 will do sometimes) – i suggest you try against some human players and see the possibilities before telling me im wrong (if you want friend me on steam and I will play with you.)

    This is a particular case I was thinking about. This is the only situation where rapair machine will be powerful. In this case I would just retreat in the city to let the ennemy enter. Buildings should put his trebuchets at a disadvantage. It’s similar to to the spell siege + heal combo actually, but this last one is more exploitive IMO. There are ways around it (like busting the siege army in the open with a proper army) so it’s only a harmless edge case I think.

    Regarding point 6. I disagree with you about warlord – sharply. In my experience it is the second weakest class in the game. The scout is just the first weakness of this class and the one that makes it very weak for many types of games and map types. Saying that the gold medal buff appears very late in the game, my suggestion would actually make warlord stronger, while removing an annoying and imba element that also hurts the fun side of things (as Shaithias wrote).

    You disagree sharply, but did you ever try to adapt your playstyle to the class or did you play it like any other one ? That’s what I’m talking about. And what are these other weaknesses ? This quote is empty of argument and you are only appealing to authority here, your authority on top of that. And why couldn’t the warlord be fundamentaly different from other classes ?

    #109620

    NuMetal
    Member

    @bouh:

    I agree with you on almost everything but you do sound quite aggressive and I’d recommend to try being a little more polite.
    I know the feeling when you see something being posted again and it being obvious that the poster didn’t bother to look at the original discussions, or when his post is void of any arguments proving his claims, I really do.
    But nobody has ever been conviced by hostility.
    So simply to increase the chance of you actually convincing someone without upsetting them, try to be nice and factual and try to portrait some kind of understanding before pointing at your (imo superior) arguments 🙂

    Now to the list:

    1. They already announced that they’ll overhaul the disjunction mechanics.

    2. Adding a turn limit to a spell sounds impossible, no spell has this. But I do agree that it’d need a nerf of some kind. (but only a small imo)

    3. Just as Blind Berserk is a high risk, high reward spell. It is either very powerful or it doesn’t do anything at all. Therefore I never thought that Berserk is too strong in itself. The problem with these two spells is that lvl1 heroes can have them, so I’d suggest changing the basic spells and how easy it is to get these two spells for the Rogue and Warlord heroes.

    4. This might make Hunters OP, but besides that I am in favor of it. Right now too few Animals are actually labeled animals. Maybe the creature type should be changed for some units, but I wouldn’t go all the way to make all monsters charmable.

    5. They already announced that they’ll overhaul the disjunction mechanics. I think that this’d be changed too as it is somehow a part of it.

    6. In Single Player the Warlord is just fine, but in MP the lack of a decent scout makes him quite weak imo. Yet I wouldn’t just add a scout to fix this because, as Bouh said, it’s one of the defining things for the Warlord. He shoulld get something else though to compensate for that. I have no idea what though…

    7. I strongly disagree that Dreadnaught is OP. In MP the strongest classes are Druid and Sorcerer, which alone proves that it is not OP. It is just in the right place.

    8. Definitely not! Most players already find the Engineer quite lacking and having a hero/leader designated to reload some machine, makes him not do anything else. If it had a cooldown you could just take the Engineer out of the game entirely.

    9. Also definitely no. Unlike heal repair machine can only be used by your leader and if you are lucky by a hero too. Engineers (almost) never reach gold. That is two units. And both units have much more important stuff to do than to heal a machine 15hp… The only scenario where it is really powerful is the one you described later in the Thread. But this is so rare and still not as good as just having heal and abusing it in the same way, which is also much more reliable.

    10. I don’t know about this specific spell and I don’t have so much experience as a Sorcerer, but regarding all the nerfes the Sorcerer already got and the fact that i dont recall anyone else posting about this before, I’d refrain from nerfing it.

    11. Making the spellbook less random is something that has been discussed a lot and I personally would hate it becoming less random, but this is just about ones personal preference. For MP people want everything to become less random, but for SP everything should be as random as possible. Since SP > MP, I’d not change it.

    #109629

    ExNihil
    Member

    Chrysophylax, thanks for your reply.

    Regarding Charm Animal and convert, I was talking about game mechanics as there are atm 4 distinct skills that allow you to take control of all kinds of enemy units – Dominate, Charm, Seduce and Convert, and then there is charm animal which is very limited indeed. My suggestion is first and foremost to change it to include monsters, of which I wrote in length and so will not repeat it again.

    Saying that, your points actually raise the problem of the effects of convert, charm and dominate. I think these work well atm and the only thing I would actually change is the probability of each of these skills working on a specific class of creatures. In my opinion dominate should work best against creatures of magical origin, whereby convert, charm and seduce should work best against humanoid creatures. I further think that the morale of the defending unit should be introduced as a factor in the resistance roll.

    As for your question regarding the classes. Well, here i will answer in somewhat more length as I will also answer Bouh’s overly aggressive and somewhat trollish reply to a degree. In my opinion the classes can be divided as such:

    Sorcerer: Strong early game because of wisps. In the early-mid game sorcerer is somewhat weaker as there is still a substantial lack of mana and cp is, but by late-mid game with magical structures and summon fantastic creature sorcerer can spawn extremely powerful armies very quickly. Late game is very strong because of horrors and supports with phase and stun. Overall sorcerer is probably the strongest class in my opinion, possibly alongside dread.

    Arch-Druid: Mediocre early game because of lack of scouts and weak t1 summons. Early mid-game is when AD shines because of t1 to t3/4 unit evolution, t2 summons that have high probability of giving wyvern/gryphon and archer/hunter units with bleeding wounds. In late mid-game is again a mediocre phase as mana is highly constrained, hunter/archer units become less effective against enemies, summon gargantuan animal isn’t quite powerful enough (none of the units that appear can fly and all are rather bad in siege war while having very high maintenance costs), and shamans are rather bad t3 units (including draconian shaman, although it is no doubt better)that do not justify its production costs in battle: shamans dont incur much dmg, have rather low mobility, their defense isn’t amazing and they are quite useless in siege warfare. In fact adding something like a 1 time use heal as a skill would be very good for shamans. Late game for AD is strong but not exceptionally so, Gods are a great t4 unit (very good against dreads and especially sorcerer if used in high numbers although fire vulnerability makes them weak individually), but their production is highly circumscribed by the constant lack of mana.

    Theocrat: Good early game, especially because of level 2 heal on leader and the uncertain possibility of getting order of healing rather quickly (depending on research tree,) but is overall a bit to dependent on mark of the heretic being available as a starting spell or a research option to make the early phase strong strong. Early mid-game is where Theo really shines with swarms of healing supports on relativly high rank and the possibility of having convert on leader. If mark of the heretic is available Theo can be the strongest class at this phase of the game as all units, including the rather pathetic cherubs, become killing machines. In late mid-game Theo loses its momentum though, the two t3 units – Evangelist and exalted – are very bad for their category: Evangelist is an almost useless unit, it is worthless in siege warfare, dies quickly in auto-combat, its 1 time use of convert is usually easly dispelled and its defense and melee attack are rather weak. The addition of heal as a support just makes it an expansive support unit without any ranged abilities. Exalted in turn is the weakest t3 unit hp wise. It does fly, which gives it a little advantage and has resurgence, which is great – if you win, but if you enter battle armed with a plethora of exalted units vs. an equal number of other t3 units you wont get to see them re-surge most of the time. I would here suggest revamping the evangelist to have ranged attacks of some sort, probably dealing spirit dmg like human priest as well as a cool-down based convert (3-4 turns) rather then a 1 time use convert. This would balance out nicely. I would also possibly increase the hp of exalted and/or introduce elemental dmg to their melee attack. In late game Theo becomes strong again as shrines of smiting are very powerful t4 units, especially if supported by dread heroes with repair machine.

    Warlord: Mediocre early game due to lack of scouting unit. The all-powerful raise militia isn’t quite good enough to effect your possibility of rushing well, as lack of scout makes rushing a very bad strategy for a warlord. It does give a certain level of defense against rushing, but the constant draw on population growth and the increasing maintenance costs for creating irregular units just bog your development. Early mid-game is when warlord can be powerful as the combination of swarms of irregular units with produced units such as berserkers or especially cavalry units makes for over-powering invasion forces – given that you managed to scout your enemy properly. Late mid-game is a mediocre phase again, the class specific t3 units are not quite good enough – phalanx is powerful, especially against mounted enemies and is a good defensive / offensive unit in pitched battle but is useless in siege warfare pretty much. Warbreed is just silly, its basically a big ogre unit that dies fairly quickly. Most players usually opt for racial t3 units that get some benefits from warlord tech, especially cavalry units that can get +15hp. In late game warlord can be very powerful as Manticores are very strong t4 units in some circumstances. Lack of ranged capabilities with the exception of the mounted archer (very bad unit for its costs because of short bow, with the exception of high elf mounted archer which is very powerful) makes warlord highly limited to pitched combat. Siege warfare is in fact a very weak aspect of warlords as well as rushing – both of which go against the grain of the way this class is imagined.

    Here I would add regarding Berserk, it has been constantly written in this thread by Bouh (rather rudely) that it is not op, to which some ppl replied that it is what the warlord’s battle strategy hangs on. In my opinion this is a rather bad way to balance a class – there need to be more combat spells that incur direct dmg and can in fact change these circumstances and less “joker up the sleeve” type of spells like berserk. Berserk’s cost should be increased from 8 to 12 or 15 or its duration should be lowered. This should go hand in hand with adding a proper dmg spell like the other classes have (flash bang does incur dmg) and also perhaps with some sort of heal ability on supports (like field medicine and so on).

    Rogue: Rogue has very strong early game because of its scouting capacity, perhaps the strongest of all classes. Rogue is exceptionally good in early game rushing and in 1v1 rushes in the first 8-15 turns. In early-mid game Rogue retains its strength as the introduction of bard units allows for the creation of bard stacks that can rapidly charm many independent units, courtesan ambassadors gives a distinct edge in controlling independent cities (in settler games rogue has a distinct disadvantage here) and assassins give a distinct edge in pitched battles. In late mid-game though Rogue loses its momentum. Succubus is an OK t3 unit with seduce (3 turn cooldown) being a powerful ability as well as flying and backstab, but shadow stalker is no more then a mediocre t3 unit with less hp then succubus. The lack of a t4 unit makes late game fighting almost impossible for rogues as stack for stack its units are simply much weaker. The only way to repair rogue in my opinion is to introduce a t4 unit or alternatively to upgrade the shadow stalker to t4 and introduce a new t3 unit.

    Dread: Dread has a strong early game because of drone scouting and a powerful ranged attack on leader. In early-mid game the introduction of engineers and muskets, especially when combined with a couple of trebs and repair machine, allows for the creation of very powerful armies that can pretty much pulverize other classes armies: 1 musket unit firing at close range at a t1-2 unit usually deals more then 75% of total unit hp or even kills that unit with 1 shot. A combination of 1 arch druid hero with hornet swarm or sorcerer hero with chain lightning, 3 muskets and 2 engineers, will pulverize in pitched battle an equivalent stack from another stack, even when that stack includes ranged units and heal, as you could in most circumstances kill at least half of the other stack in a single round. The combination of dread hero with repair machine and treb makes siege defense incredibly challenging and next to impossible as long as the defense cannot actually leave the walls and take the field – I refer you here to what Griffith wrote. In late-mid game dread becomes the strongest class – if there are enough cities to take control of. The production and gold income bonuses becomes very tangible as the dread can outproduce all other classes with the exception of sorcerer (AD is constrained by mana). The two t3 units, flame tanks and cannons, are very powerful both defensivly and offensivly. A sufficient amount of cannons and engineers can in fact destroy armies that several t4 units, and I have seen and experienced this happen multiple times. The fact machines are immune to spirit dmg, stunning, and are resistant (or immune) to blight dmg as well as the inbuilt “reinforcement” bonus makes them very hard indeed. In late game this trend continues as Juggernauts are very powerful t4 units, especially en-mass. Here I would speak of Bouh’s “copying” argument. Well, an engineer combined with a Juggernaut allows you to double its ranged attack, which is an aoe attack of a t4 unit. This is the only t4 unit that can, when combined with a t1 unit! attack round after round. This is also true of cannons, which have by far the strongest attack of any t3 units, which without any cooldown becomes extremely op. It is true the engineer itself is a rather weak unit, but the fact rapid reload has no cooldown just makes units such as cannons and Juggernauts overwhelmingly powerful in comparison with other units. My suggestion, which I will repeat once more, is to introduce a 1 turn cooldown. Thus if you want to fire every round with your musket/cannon/jugg you will need 2 engineers, or alternatively fire 2 turns in a row then cooldown 1 turn. This still retains something of the edge dread has while mitigating an ability that allows a t1 unit to double a t2/t3 or t4 unit.

    #109634

    NuMetal
    Member

    @exnihil:

    Here I have something for you from a Thread where the OP (and some others) are convinced that the Juggernaught is the worst Tier4 there is. Surely you can convince him that this is not the case (as I have already tried).

    It’s not just slow compared to summons though. Manticores are 30 movement and fly. Shadow Stalkers are 32 Movement Floating. Even the Shrine, which has similar problems, at least floats.
    The Juggernaught is 28 movement walking. (Mercifully, it has Forestry, but no other movement skills.) It’s basically as slow as a unit can possibly be. When I say I can’t be bothered making Juggernaughts most of the time I mean I literally just can’t be bothered slowly walking the damn thing from my biggest city to the frontlines most of the time.

    I’m not asking it to be made faster, even. I’m just saying, people always seem to overlook all the drawbacks that come with Juggernaughts while talking up how amazing they are. They’re the least flexible, independently operating Tier 4 that exists, and even on the battlefield they have some pretty obvious weak points.

    Also the last paragraph is perfect, I couldn’t have said it better.

    Link to the Thread: http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/have-some-of-the-nerfs-to-t4s-gone-a-bit-too-far/#post-108407

    Good luck! 🙂

    #109636

    ExNihil
    Member

    @numetal

    Let me answer you in short: First and foremost Bouh is indeed aggressive and rude, and i suspect it is a rather frustrating life that is expressing itself in this thread :). I thank you for your opinion regarding my rudeness in posting the original list out of the top of my head, without reading through the forums – excuse me, I’m a busy man with family, work and so forth, and simply thought to share my opinion. At this point please go and educate someone else, or remain here and politly continue the discussion as to the substantial points themselves. Here I would add to Bouh: Whatever I wrote, I wrote out of my own experience in playing with several hundred other players, and in communicating with at least 150 steam friends who also play this game – out of which I have a few good friend I constantly talk with. All I wrote is my opinion, which I might add is as good as yours, only being framed in a much more civil way – You can disagree but please save the aggressive tones out or just don’t reply to this thread as I’m getting tired of reading your rants and I really don’t wanna continue playing the part of your trolling partner.

    As to the actual points that were raised. I invite the two of you of reading my and to a degree Griffith’s previous posts regarding all of these points. In my opinion there are arguments and explanation a plenty. I will now nonetheless answer NuMetal’s list:

    1. I’m talking about dispel magic and not dis-junction, please read through again and see what I wrote including my reference to looking in the other forum threads – I dont think writing my opinion here negates it in any way.

    2. I’m talking about a round limit not a turn limit, in combat, and many spells have it. I assume you misunderstand but I am talking about blind which doesnt have atm any round limit to its effect, whereby other spells and abilities do – e.g. berserk, flash bang, taunt, as such it is far from impossible to add this.

    3. Berserk and Blind are not high risk spells, they have very high chances of working until u start seeing t3 units on the field or high level heros. As I wrote before berserk is OP in my opinion because of the ratio of its cost-effect. The fact Warlord relays on this spell simply shows the way Warlord is imbalanced, but as a single spell it is OP. Please read my suggestions in the previous posts.

    5. Again I didnt speak about disjunction, I was speaking about cure disease here.

    6. I have played less then 2 hours of single player so my view is somewhat biased. Please read my previous post regarding warlord. As far as Bouh’s rant about what a warlord should be, I have not seen Bouh actually play in any MP game in the past 4 months, although I have seen he was listed in the tournament. My focus is pvp and MP games and from this dimension, where you have actual human beings playing against each other the role playing element simply collapses for warlord is not, as Bouh wrote “a powerful war machine you can only outmanoeuver and outsmart, or break before it’s running” but rather in most cases a rather weak warmachine that can only do pitched battles well. As such a scout it a must for this class.

    7. Please read my analysis in the previous post and reply. It looks to me that you are thinking of settler (empire building) games for the most part, in which there is a distinct advantage for summoner classes. I would add that these are a small fraction of the games and that when you have a normal “average” game settings things look very different.

    8. I think the engineer needs to be reworked, please see shaithias’s proposal and my own reply. Also read my previous post regarding the cooldown of rapid reload and the combination with cannons and Juggs.

    9. You have a point about repair machine being limited to your hero but heal is also limited to heros unless you play theo. Dread is much more versatile and this specific skill allows for some very bad abuses in multiplayer games (early-mid phases), please see what Griffith wrote. Hence the need for a cooldown, and this could go hand in hand with increasing the amount of hp repaired and even in giving this as a 1 time ability to engineers.

    10. Fair enough regarding not having experience, but then you should also refrain from commenting on it being nerfed or not.

    11. You are generalizing from what I said i suggested making the spellbook less random, I only said animalistic knowledge needs to appear sooner and in more static spots. In fact I can tell you where techs appear for each class and they do always appear in 2-3 specific places. For Arch-Druid it is quite common to first having “favorite enemy X” tech before animistic knowledge, making you spend a huge amount of research in early-mid game before you can actually start researching. This defeats the point of giving the Arch-Druid a research edge to compensate for its otherwise rather mediocre overall performance (u can c my opinion in the previous post i wrote.

    As for your last post regarding convincing some guy about Juggernauts. You seem, like Bouh, to be interested in an argument. The fact some guy has some problem with Juggs mobility doesn’t make them the worst class. Dread’s mobility is its achilles heel, and it is still the most powerful class alongside sorcerer. I think both sorcerer and dread need nerfing, or the other classes need vamping. Be that as it may, you should, to walk the walk after talking the talk, go to the forums and also read those people the guy you qouted referred to when writing “I’m just saying, people always seem to overlook all the drawbacks that come with Juggernaughts while talking up how amazing they are” that think Juggs are amazing. As it is, we are all expressing opinions here. Juggs are a powerful t4 unit with low mobility, my analysis still stands and my opinion regarding rapid reload is unchanged.

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by  President.
    #109647

    NuMetal
    Member

    1. and 5.: I know that they are not the same as disjunct, but I do think that they go hand in hand with it and that they will be changed too. So yeah, I fully agree with you on both points and jsut wanted to add that this probably is already being changed.

    2. Oops, I really read that as a turn limit! 😛
    That kinda confused me, but the way you actually meant it makes sense. I’d include it in the list of possible nerfs for Blind among higher CP and not stopping casting.

    3. With high risk I meant the risk of nothing happening. You still have the CP and Mana costs, you cannot use another spell this turn that actually does something and you cannot use your hero or leader to do something useful this turn.
    Does Berserk really have such a high chance of working? I know we nerfed it some time ago and since then it usually is below 50%.

    6. The big thing is that MP and SP are very different and that MP is really just being played by a small minority of players. So the role playing aspect as you called it is not to be disregarded and the way Bouh described the Warlord probably is not how he really is right now, but how he should be. I did agree with you that something needed to be done, but I do not think it should be adding a scout spell, because that really is a defining Warlord trait. Triumph ha the difficult task to keep all (most) SP players happy, while balancing the game for MP. There are a bunch of SP players out there that are convinced Triumph has looked way too much at MP already and that it should shift it’s focus. The more extreme of them are the real trolls…
    So what I am saying is that Triumph has to keep a balance for making MP and SP players happy and by introducing what you suggested they’d probably upset most SP players (which is by far the majority of AoW players). Yet you are correct the Warlord needs buffs to be able to compete in MP and something needs to be done. it just isn’t this.

    7. Your previous post was “just” your opinion/experience. I also have my own and I have read tons of opinions of others and experiences other players made (I read the forums quite frequently). Therefore I would claim to be able to say that even most MP players would disagree with your list. (of course not with everything, but definitely with your ranking of the classes)
    Now my opinion doesn’t matter as much because I barely play MP, but from looking at the test results of the current MP tournament it seems like Druid and Sorcerer are the best classes. Now if you could agree that the MP tournament is sufficient to determine what is the best class, you’d have to admit that Dreadnaught is not OP.

    8. I did read everything, but I still don’t agree. It is good that the Engineer actually gets used a little now and that it takes it’s role as the (needed) support for the heavy machines the Dreadnaught uses. It can be very useful as you prove with your posts, but it also has some drawbacks. The most important of which is that it takes one place in your stack that could be used by something that can actually do something on its own. I guess here we can just agree to disagree.
    (But of course if you have a good suggestion for how to “rework” the Engineer, please post it anyways. I’d like to hear your ideas.)

    9. Heal is much more frequent and reliable and relevant because of the following things:
    – Theo and Druid get it, so the chance of getting a hero with heal is twice as high as getting a hero with repair machine and also two classes use it and not just one.
    – All Theo supports get it.
    – It can be used on almost anything unlike repair machine.
    – It heals more HP in one turn (which is arguably better, but that’s subjective)
    – Some supports can heal at least once per battle without having the actual ability “heal”
    Hence these bad abuses you talk about can be done much more reliably with heal. Yes, that these tactics are possible in some scenarios is not good, but they are not as unbeatable as you make them look. To get rid of the dexcribed situations or at least for making them less powerful, some changes might be need. But because repair machine is ok the way it is it shouldn’t be made less useful because of this marginal case imo.

    11. Yes, I was generalizing. I did so because I also read most other posts and similar suggestions have been made by various players about various skills. And in the end if you should have your way why shouldn’t they? So I do think it is correct to look at it more general and so it is the question “more or less random in the spellbook”. And I personally would prefer more rather than less random.
    The Druid being just mediocre is well your opinion and your opinion differs from what the Tournament results show and from what many other hardcore MP players think.

    About your last paragraph: I am not interested in an argument, quite the opposite. it’s rather that I read almost all threads and I hear people shouting from both sides and claiming both extremes (“Dreadnaught sucks!”, “Dreadnaught is OP!”…) all the time and every time I can only try to show the arguments of the other side and that it is alltogether rather balanced. There are just too many factors to keep in mind.
    Now instead of being the middle man and being “proven” wrong by both opposing sides I thought I could just let you talk directly. And really the link I posted is only one of many. This comes up again and again (both sides of the argument). I only chose this one because it is only like 4 days old…

    Now, i think we both have explained our opinions eanough and it’s rather clear that we can’t convince each other (at least not entirely), so I’ll leave you alone now and only reply if you ask for my opinion. I hope we can leave on a positive note though 😉

    As an unrelated side note: You said you know rather well how the spellbook works and where the different techs appear. I read about this somewehere else before, but I didn’t quite understand everything. If you have the time could you please give me a detailed inside view with the Dreadnaught or the Arch Druid as example? =)

    Kind regards

    NuMetal

    #109656

    ExNihil
    Member

    Hi,

    First of all, i appreciate the change of tone and will reciprocate. Lets go through the list again.

    6. Well, as I said I was voicing my opinion. I do think there need to be differences between SP and MP. Be that as it may the game mechanics express themselvs in full in MP as the AI, like all AI’s but perhaps especially in this game, sucks :).

    7. Actually no, the tournament doesnt show anything for three reasons: 1. there are vast differences in skill between the players, and I couldve actually told you who would win 90% of the time (a few suprises nonetheless). Arch-Druid is not actually a very strong class and those players who play it very well are limited (best ones i know with this class are AbedNegoJC, Fenrellis and Ayenara). 2. The game settings are highly selective, medium map 1v1 with average settings. This in fact favors either rush (you should read Brutal_Felix’s steam guide about rushing for 1 possible way of doing it well) which gives dread, rogue and theo some advantage, or if the two opponents are highly skilled and scout well, forcing a longer development – here again, due to lack of scouts, druid has disadvantage. 3. In the actual tournament results you can see that there are more dreads then there are archdruids all in all and the amount of victories is pretty much identical. I will add that in every case in which I saw archdruid win or dread loses it was directly tied to the skill difference between the opponents except once (AbedNegoJC vs. Keejchen).

    9. I was speaking about repair machine – you created the relation with heal. Heal is ofc more common and it effect a much wider segment of units but it has nothing to do with my point about repair machine which u dont actually answer, writing “To get rid of the described situations or at least for making them less powerful, some changes might be need. But because repair machine is ok the way it is…” which doesnt say much imo. If you would care to explain why you think repair machine is ok the way it is, why it shouldnt be changed to cooldown and so forth please do.

    11. Well, you can generalize as much as you want, but when we are discussing thing x and you replace it with thing y and speak with me as if i in fact said y, you can see why i disagree and get confused. I dont think that the tech tree should be more static, its generally fine, but I am offering is a specific tweak to what i conceive as being a serious problem with AD research.

    As for your question: friend me on steam, ExNihil (with the aku-octupus) and I will be glad to answer any questions you have live. AS for what I meant – well, every research in the tech tree appears in 1 of 2 or 3 slots, always, and in a more or less set relation with other techs. I will give you the easiest example from sorcerer – If you want to research arcane knowledge and it doesnt appear in your research tree, then you need to study either magical structures or disjunction, or perhaps both, before it appears, and appear it will – always in middle left or extreme bottom left slot.

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by  President.
    #109682

    Bouh
    Member

    I apologize for the aggressive tone. I didn’t thought it was aggressive at all actualy, english is not my native language.

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by  President.
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