Regarding….Level 4 units

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Regarding….Level 4 units

This topic contains 112 replies, has 53 voices, and was last updated by  Low_K 7 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #63380

    Low_K
    Member

    So when you can produce level 4 units and you spam them, as the AI likes to do, you are essentialy screwed if you don;t have level 4 units too.

    An example; Goblin held city. Two stacks of 6, 2 heroes (high level) and level 1-3 units. The AI brings 4 Landships. 4 times they shoot mortar; 75% of defenders either dead or heavily wounded. Counter attack does 3-5 damage per attack (due to reinforced). Next turn Landships move forward, shoot their cannons. Killing all. City gone.

    This happens too when the AI uses Shrines of Smiting. Defenders need level 4s or they are gone. You don’t even have to defend your cities with level 1 and 2s while the level 4s don’t care and will destroy you anyway.

    This is rather annoying, the lower level units go absolute very fast and you just can’t defend against stacks of level 4’s. Or maybe I suck at this game, could be, yet in Shadow Magic, the level 4s were not as overpowered as in AoW 3.

    I haven’t experienced endgame spells but I suspect these are also too OP.

    I think level 4’s need to be nerfed that they still pose a threat but cannot be used as steamroller when putting 6 in a stack. Furthermore I feel that level 1-3s still are viable, even lategame.

    I hope the game can be made more balanced so that lower level defenders still have a chance to win city battles, as was the case in Shadow Magic. 30+ damage as AoE (even when targets are behind walls as mortars ignore walls appearantly) is just too much imho.

    Kind regards,

    Low

    #63393

    Epaminondas
    Member

    So when you can produce level 4 units and you spam them, as the AI likes to do, you are essentialy screwed if you don;t have level 4 units too.

    An example; Goblin held city. Two stacks of 6, 2 heroes (high level) and level 1-3 units. The AI brings 4 Landships. 4 times they shoot mortar; 75% of defenders either dead or heavily wounded. Counter attack does 3-5 damage per attack (due to reinforced). Next turn Landships move forward, shoot their cannons. Killing all. City gone.

    This happens too when the AI uses Shrines of Smiting. Defenders need level 4s or they are gone. You don’t even have to defend your cities with level 1 and 2s while the level 4s don’t care and will destroy you anyway.

    This is rather annoying, the lower level units go absolute very fast and you just can’t defend against stacks of level 4′s. Or maybe I suck at this game, could be, yet in Shadow Magic, the level 4s were not as overpowered as in AoW 3.

    I haven’t experienced endgame spells but I suspect these are also too OP.

    I think level 4′s need to be nerfed that they still pose a threat but cannot be used as steamroller when putting 6 in a stack. Furthermore I feel that level 1-3s still are viable, even lategame.

    I hope the game can be made more balanced so that lower level defenders still have a chance to win city battles, as was the case in Shadow Magic. 30+ damage as AoE (even when targets are behind walls as mortars ignore walls appearantly) is just too much imho.

    Kind regards,

    Low

    While I agree with you on the diagnosis (T4s are very powerful relative to other units), I don’t agree with your prescription (that they must be nerfed).

    Generally-speaking, a better way to balance something is to boost competition, rather than nerf the over-powered side. Moreover, I fear that high level heroes would become too strong if they cannot be checked by T4s. So I prefer a solution where the other tiers are boosted (I’ve suggested in the past that, among other things, HP/defense of lower tiers should be dramatically increased; I also think the current HP progression scheme for leveling should be reversed so that T1s get 40 extra for making to Elite, and T4s only 10).

    #63394

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Edit: I also would like to see lower tier units get more abilities; and/or get abilities they get at later levels at earlier levels.

    #63397

    melkathi
    Member

    Yeah, some balancing seems to still be needed.
    Part of the problem I am seeing is that city walls offer very little defense now. A strong army doesn’t even need to break the walls, they can kill your defenders from outside the city with the defenders being hardly able to deal any damage in return.

    Having archers in your city to shoot attackers from the safety of your walls is rather pointless now. So is having walls to be honest. All a stone wall does is give you +1 domain range.

    #63408

    I still think the best solution to t4 spam is to limit the amount of t4’s that can be put into an army. You could still spam them if you were so inclined but it would do away with doom stacks as the t4 would be force to either travel alone or alongside lower tiered units.

    #63412

    Epaminondas
    Member

    Yeah, some balancing seems to still be needed.<br>
    Part of the problem I am seeing is that city walls offer very little defense now. A strong army doesn’t even need to break the walls, they can kill your defenders from outside the city with the defenders being hardly able to deal any damage in return.

    Having archers in your city to shoot attackers from the safety of your walls is rather pointless now. So is having walls to be honest. All a stone wall does is give you +1 domain range.

    Defenders in sieges still need help indeed. I’d like to see two changes frankly:

    1. Double the HPs for both walls and gates.

    2. More defensive structures (e.g. some kind of defensive battery like the towers that shot beams in the prior AoW games and a moat – one that preferably doesn’t merely slow you down but damages you as you cross it).

    #63415

    Low_K
    Member

    I agree with Melkathi; City walls give no defence whatsoever regarding level 4s. Mortars on Landships ignore walls. The AoE Shrine attack ignores walls and the Eldritch Horror electricity breath ignores walls. You really don’t need walls when going against level 4s as they ignore them and do massive amounts of damage.

    Maybe limit the hero level to get rid of the über heroes as well as making the lower levels a bit more potent. I think the massive AoE attacks of the level 4s really have to be nerfed or at least don’t let them ignore walls fully.

    Balancing is always very hard to do, bjut hope the Devs know some solution while it is rather frustrating to see the AI steamroll through your empire with one stack.

    EDIT: Minus has a good point. Limit the amount of level 4s in a stack. Although you still can attack using multiple stacks, but when you can only put one level 4 unit per stack the balance would be improved. I still think that the walls should get buffs and that even the AoE level 4 attacks get line of sight blockings.

    Kind regards,

    Low

    #63422

    Chaosforge
    Member

    Agreed. Seems like some balancing is still in the cards for AOW3. It is discouraging to watch stack after stack of tier 4 units roll in to attack you when you are still working on building up your forces. The AI seems to focus research on tier 4’s and dispel only. In my first two random maps, I had multiple AIs run straight at me as soon as they researched to tier 4 units. I was still building cities and growing my empire when I was smashed from two sides by multi-stacks of tier 4 units. It was ugly.

    [Note: in every game the AI has made a straight path to me like it knew where I was.(I know, I know the AI always knows.) Even on a large map they take a straight line to you – if you defeat the initial assault you can follow the path straight back to their capital. At this point AI cities appear to be only lightly defended and most of the “treasure” is still there – including piles of gold and mana. The only game I have won so far I used the tier 4 spam and follow the breadcrumbs back as a winning tactic.]

    I wonder if future DLC might be include “personalities” for the AI (expander/defender/aggressor/researcher/etc…). It would be nice to play against something other than an AI that only spams tier 4 units and runs straight at you.

    #63430

    melkathi
    Member

    As a side note, it is not just getting attacked by those stacks that bothers me. I also wish to viably use a diverse army myself. And if stacks of T4 is what the game becomes about, then I can’t play the way I want to 🙂

    In Wizard’s Throne, when every unit could attack gates and siege weapons became obsolete (at least rams), it became way too tempting to have stacks of just knights racing around the countryside. Effective, but not fun.

    #63437

    Tridus
    Member

    Agreed, this gets pretty silly. The landships (which are called Juggernauts in my version, not sure why that is) are a particularly crazy example, but all the T4 units can run over weaker stuff. Considering that defenders on a wall can basically never actually have enough range to hit the attackers in the first turn of a siege (so the attackers get to go first), low tier defenders are going to get blown to pieces before they can do anything.

    I really think HP on lower tier units has to go up. As it stands now they simply can’t take a hit from the T4 units.

    In Shadow Magic, it was possible for lower tier units used well in siege defense to hold their own against strong forces and inflict significant damage against superior ones. Right now, building defenders against a T4 stack is just a waste of money better spent on building T4 attackers.

    #63456

    Tridus
    Member

    Stack sizes also play into this. With space at such a premium in large battles, do you really want precious stack slots taken up by guys throwing rocks, or by giant death machines?

    A Juggernaut is infinitely more effective than a Civic Guard. They take up the same amount of space. Unless you can’t afford to, putting stronger units into a stack will always give you more power in that stack than putting weaker units in, because you can’t put more weaker units in to make up the gap.

    #63468

    Gyor
    Member

    Walls should add to a units defence against external enemies, especially from ranged attacks.

    Still t4 are not invinsible and can be defeated by lower tier units.

    I don’t care for nerfing t4s or limiting the amount of them, its just a matter of finding the right counter to them. Scoundrel sprinting then sabotaging machines, Shadow Stalkers against Manticore riders, Succubi and Evangelists vs. Giants.

    One tactic I’ve been concidering is pulling away from the walls and hiding amoung the buildings, forcing your enemies to engage in urbane warfare.

    What might be cool is a city building defence that does better against higher tier units then lower units.

    #63472

    bam65
    Member

    I like the suggestion of a limit on tier 4 units allowed in a stack. That sounds like a very viable option.

    #63474

    Diair
    Member

    I too think T4 are probably a bit on the strong side, more specifically, their AOE abilities. The Manticore is mostly fine as it is, but the other T4’s can decimate entire stacks of units by themselves.

    I do think that a nerf to the various T4 units is called for. I see someone want the t1-t3 units to be buffed instead, but why? T1-T3 are very well balanced in relation to each other right now, and there are much less T4 units to rebalance than T1-T3. Anyway, the only things that need a nerf is the amount of damage the AOE abilities can dish out; either its raw damage output or much longer cooldowns. Their sheer range could nee a good batting as well (And walls should be able to repel most of the damage, either from upgrades or something else.)

    I would also like to see more ways of dealing with T4 units available to every class/race. It doesn’t really matter to the Rogue that Eldritch Horrors are aweome at taking out Juggernauts. Also, these units shouldn’t be t4’s themselves, but more specialized units that you could use in specific situations.

    #63503

    vota dc
    Member

    Maybe is just a problem of machines? Giants for example are fine, two fire giants can be defeated by four high elven sisters.

    #63532

    vfxrob
    Member

    Well they are rebalancing squire level of difficulty to be more even with human players, your probably right with the spamming of tier4 units but Emperor is suppose to be extremely unfair, makes the victory all the more sweeter. But maybe lord and other levels tier4 might be reduced?

    #63566

    Sifer2
    Member

    The problem is not that you can bring a stack of T4’s. But rather than they are way too cheap for their power. Only T1, and maybe T2 units are priced appropriately IMO. T3, and especially T4 need to be more expensive. In other fantasy 4X games also higher tier units usually needed special resources to make instead of just gold as well. Since this game doesn’t have that it promotes spam in the late game since you will be swimming in gold/mana as every city makes it. So there is zero reason not to spam T4’s none stop. Jack up the price/maintenance fee on them to the point where a spam stack isn’t practical is the easiest fix for now IMO. If they have time in an expansion adding unique resources needed to make the T4’s that are more limited in availability can control the number of them more directly.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by  President.
    #63573

    I thought this thread was going to be about how there aren’t enough T4’s to go around and it feels boring running around with 4 or 5 of the same thing compared to the immense variety we have in lower-level units. I’m not sure if that can be helped, but it’s how I feel.

    Back on topic, I too get sad I have to dump the low level troops I have lovingly grown up to elite status, lest they die too quickly or worse take up a spot needed for something that can fight back.

    PS – This post is making me realize I would love to have a Turtle mode (for lack of a better term) where defenses are much stronger.

    #63576

    Mardagg
    Member

    I think the T4 units with Area of Effect attacks need quite some rebalancing.
    I would prefer much increased research cost+ cooldown for the AoE effect or limited number of uses per turn or per battle.
    Also the stacking devout abililty of the Shrine of Smiting is definitely op as of now,should be toned down as well.
    Actually I would like to see a much increased research cost for all T4 units and maybe all high level spells/skills in general. I think you can get there too fast,thus making low to mid tier units and spells useless too early in the game ,which in turn leads to a short early game and very long mid and late game,with all spells and skills researched way before finishing a map.

    #63579

    I think the best approach is to change things as little as possible any time you make a change. So I think a simple limit of one T4 per stack would be the way to start.

    #63581

    Mardagg
    Member

    I think the best approach is to change things as little as possible any time you make a change. So I think a simple limit of one T4 per stack would be the way to start.

    lol, I think this change would be a huge one…much more significant than e.g. toning down the stats of the specific T4 units.

    #63584

    raven313
    Member

    I agree with Mardagg.

    The cost of T4 units needs to be exponential in gold and mana so that their is in effect a lot less of them.

    We have all these lovely units with animations and cool uses but it just becomes T4 spam city later on which is boring for all.

    Alternatively if that is too hard to balance then a limit on their number is appropriate.

    #63588

    Well, simple as in requiring less effort.

    *edit* and less changes that could create whole new balance issues

    #63600

    BlackHammer
    Member

    I think a hard cap on quantity produced would be better than making them more expensive. Against an AI getting massive amounts of resources for free, simply raising the price would make the higher difficulties unpleasantly similar to the current situation while penalizing the player.

    Maybe have them cost mana as well, or even casting points. Just something to avoid turning the entire map into landship factories.

    #63601

    Mardagg
    Member

    Well, simple as in requiring less effort.

    *edit* and less changes that could create whole new balance issues</P>

    Actually i think your idea is like implementing a new game mechanic, taking the already reduced max stack size compared to AoW2 to a new level, while tweaking the stats is simple number editing to find the perfect balance.

    Your proposed change would also affect all T4 units, while there is only need to rebalance some of them as most people seem to agree here.
    I dont think Manticore riders for example are overpowered right now, I think they are perfectly balanced with T1-T3 troops,but lacking vs some of the other T4.

    #63617

    I think the best approach is to change things as little as possible any time you make a change. So I think a simple limit of one T4 per stack would be the way to start.

    I’m not so much proposing changes. I have yet to face all the T4 units or a stack of 6 T4 units. I’m not qualified to say it needs changing yet. I’m just hoping for no major knee-jerk reactions after a few days of release.

    There have been other games I played where I think the devs listened too much to the fans. Every update you had to relearn a whole new game, some versions of which were fun , some were not.(even tho it was the same game).

    #63620

    CrazyElf
    Member

    Maybe is just a problem of machines? Giants for example are fine, two fire giants can be defeated by four high elven sisters.

    Nah – ever see a horned god mass? Or a horror mass?

    I’m not sure how this should be done.

    Before everyone jumps on the nerf bandwagon, consider the following:

    T4s are very expensive and need to justify their cost. At the same time, people don’t want stacks of 6 OP. So they need to be worth their cost.

    For every T4
    You can maintain 2 T3s, 4 T2s, and 8 T1s. So their power has to be commensurate with the cost. At the same time, people don’t want a steamroll.

    In practice, in multiplayer, there probably won’t be situations where people can steamroll with T4s … unless they’re facing T4s from a similarly skilled player. So it’s mostly an issue of emperor level AI difficulty. And of course, limiting the T4s here may make emperor less challenging (undesirable for some).

    The question is – what to do to the T4s? They need to justify their cost, but cannot render all other units obsolete.

    I also recommend that if T4s are limited per stack or per city or some other way that it be an option, not mandatory (ex: something to check/uncheck at the start of the game/campaign).

    #63621

    CrazyElf
    Member

    I think a hard cap on quantity produced would be better than making them more expensive. Against an AI getting massive amounts of resources for free, simply raising the price would make the higher difficulties unpleasantly similar to the current situation while penalizing the player.

    Hard cap would have to scale according to map size too. But again, I think it should be optional (check/uncheck at the start of random map/scenario/campaign).

    #63622

    davidjc
    Member

    Made an account to post specifically about this. The Shrines of Smiting and the Juggernaught ship things with AOE cannons, and AOE blasts have to go or be nerfed. I am sick of them. They resist all damage, they have huge range, they have huge damage, they have huge AOE, and they have retarded amounts of HPs.

    I really think this is killing this game at the moment. It absolutely is no fun to see those thing take all your units in one blast. Even other T4 units like giants can’t do anything to these virtual tanks. Its really obscene and I don’t see how it make it past QA like this.

    It really is a glaring imbalance.

    #63623

    Mardagg
    Member

    I’m not so much proposing changes. I have yet to face all the T4 units or a stack of 6 T4 units. I’m not qualified to say it needs changing yet. I’m just hoping for no major knee-jerk reactions after a few days of release. There have been other games I played where I think the devs listened too much to the fans. Every update you had to relearn a whole new game, some versions of which were fun , some were not.(even tho it was the same game).

    I share the same worries as you.
    My main point is however:

    -stat values can be easily changed back and forth slightly,without having a big impact on gameplay and without potentially making many players unhappy.

    -altering a core game mechanic or game rule cannot be changed back and forth that easily, it does have a much higher impact on gameplay/gameflow and will potentially make a lot of people unhappy.

    So,given its like you said and I agree that it might be too early to really judge balance issues 100% right,I would rather have “just” stat value or research cost changes for now and reserve the more drastic things for later…

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