Remaining balance issues

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Remaining balance issues

This topic contains 28 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by  Gloweye 6 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #233604

    llfoso
    Member

    I feel like the game has generally matured quite well and is really balanced. There are only a few minor issues remaining I think.

    I would like to bring up just a quick list of things that seem UP or OP, which are probably just oversights (there are a lot of things to keep track of) Feel free to add anything to the list, or to disagree with me.

    -Draconian Crushers have -1 defense compared to other unarmored T1 infantry and are really not survivable, especially being the only unarmored T1 infantry without a shield (projectile resistance does help, but they run into a lot of trouble against other melee units). Yes they get regrowth which is quite powerful, but it’s still hard for them to survive a single round. Please give them 10 def.

    -Draconian Chargers have a similar survivability problem due to the flying thing, and also tend to die before regrowth can be any help. Please give them 10 def as well.

    -Draconian Raptors with 6/6 damage are a liability against high resistance units and without the benefit of “chilled” like the frostlings have. A 9/3 or 10/2 damage split would be better.

    -Tigran Prowlers – I was the one who suggested bumping them to T2, and while I stand by that they were too powerful for a T1, they need another point of defense now that they’re T2. 11 is the default def for unarmored T2 melee units, and prowlers are slightly too squishy.

    -Please give Sphinx devout. It’s completely logical for the unit (a dedicated servant of Yaka) and would make tigran theocrat viable.

    -Please give mammoth riders fast healing, maybe on bronze medal if not at recruit. Mammoth riders take a lot of damage in combat and their recovery time is a huge issue. I know their recovery time is a balance point, but it’s much too slow right now IMO and they have enough other weaknesses (32 MP, terrible defense and resistance, fire weakness, high cost) that I don’t think it will be a problem.

    -Manticores received massive buffs on 1.5, bringing much loved racial differentiation to the units. This is great, but manticores were already one of the best T4s to begin with. I think some sort of nerf would be reasonable. Especially with the production bonuses from racial governance upgrades.

    -Partisan: I think the mana upkeep cost on hideout is probably too high, and guerrilla tactics is one I can’t find a reasonable use for. Maybe expanding the types of units it effects would help.

    -A few druid animals are in need of some love. Namely, boars, wargs, blight boars, and bleak wargs.

    -Goblin Berserkers – I might recommend giving these volunteer at bronze. In most situations warg riders and butchers are better anyway, and those both get volunteer at bronze which means double incentive. Other class units have other reasons to be built instead of racial units, but berserkers not so much.

    #234047

    I agree with most of your suggestions,

    But Tigran Prowlers may have Martial Arts to compensate for their lower def.

    I noticed Draconian Chargers have no Charge ability at all, which is a bit odd.

    #234091

    Bob5
    Member

    I think Draconian Chargers are fine, they’re not really survivable but their offensive power is quite good thanks to Charge and more tactical speed and flanking opportunities thanks to Lesser Flying. They’re not really line-stoppers like some other pikemen (Phalanx for instance), but take on more of a role similar to Assassins.

    #234095

    @ Pothead pixie, Draconian Chargers should have charge – if they don’t, it’s a bug.

    IIRC, their whole point is that they are much more agile than other Pikes, but in a pike on pike fight, pretty much everyone else will just wreck them, as tactical flying = flying for the polearm bonus.

    #234104

    llfoso
    Member

    I’m not talking vs. other pikes, just in general.

    I originally was going to write up a counterargument, but this should probably go into the racial balance discussion. I’ll figure out how to edit the OP tomorrow and mark the Charger one as “no consensus.”

    #234113

    Oh I don’t mind them getting more survivability, I was replying more to pixie than you, Ilfoso.

    I think maybe a smidgen more life/projectile resistance (if they don’t already have it), so Pikes still shred them especially (but Bruisers in general), but they are excellent at picking off Ranged units and counter-Cavalry duties.

    #234120

    -Manticores received massive buffs on 1.5, bringing much loved racial differentiation to the units. This is great, but manticores were already one of the best T4s to begin with. I think some sort of nerf would be reasonable. Especially with the production bonuses from racial governance upgrades.

    Yeah no. The strength of the manticore in the late game is illusory. Any of the other t-4 sets beats the pants off it one on one, or even when the manticores have a slight numerical advantage. Gods and Reapers just do it most obviously. The advantage is that of the sherman tank, numbers and high medal from warlord abilities. Warlords and Dreadnought are the strongest in the latest of games (necro in close with unlimited no gold units) because of their production status. Other classes have sneaky ways to edge them down, so no nerfs are required.

    -Draconian Raptors with 6/6 damage are a liability against high resistance units and without the benefit of “chilled” like the frostlings have. A 9/3 or 10/2 damage split would be better.

    But they are now especially good at killing lower resistance but high defense units, and are better at flanking (since it works for each damage channel).

    -Draconian Chargers have a similar survivability problem due to the flying thing, and also tend to die before regrowth can be any help. Please give them 10 def as well.

    Chargers are great! you can use them as mobile instant death per cost to all kinds of t-3 units and heroes that you ordinarily couldn’t get mere walking pikes towards.

    #234123

    The bug’s with me: Drac Chargers DO have Charge indeed. I somehow overlooked this. Sorry.

    #234127

    @ Pothead Pixie, I have informed Tombles et al, and he assures me a bug fix for you is incoming.

    It will include changes to your car, kitchen and house plants.

    #234130

    Garresh
    Member

    @christopher pumpernickle

    Well said on the manticores. They’re powerful and scary, but they do not outclass other classes despite their fantastic military. Their damage channels and lack of resistances leave them open to a lot of powerful spells and tactics that come about in the late game. They’re not weak, but pit them against a Dread Reaper for instance, and you see them suffer heavily.

    That’s one of the more extreme examples, but in general warlords have amazing strength, speed, and efficiency, but still are countered by their elemental and magical inability.

    #234137

    Fenraellis
    Member

    For what it’s worth, Raptors really did get the short end of the stick. Essentially all other units that were converted to Hybrid damage from pure Physical gained two total damage(i.e. 14 -> 13/3). Let’s ignore for the moment that two total doesn’t necessarily mean two actual.
    Even Draconian Mounted Archers went from 10 of default Mounted Archers to 6/6. So, Raptors should definitely have gone from 12 to 8/6.

    The Union Guard is an exception here, in that it went from 11 to 9/2, but it also gained Inflict Shocking as a new ability. I suppose one could make the argument that both Raptors and Union Guards are lower tier units, but then Mounted Archers…?

    #234178

    llfoso
    Member

    Seems like I can’t use the post-editing trick (using http://ageofwonders.com/forums/reply/XXXXXX/edit/ ) for the OP? I just get a redirect loop.

    Fen I don’t see them gaining +2 total. Maybe +1 on average.

    I had this idea that it would be cool if +1 fire melee damage were a draconian trait, but like the high elf shock damage bonus it didn’t activate the channel. It would grant some synergy with fire buffs, encourage players to use dragon ancestry on melee units, give raptors that extra damage point, and add some flavor. Dragon flame is hotter or whatever.

    I stand by my balance assessment of chargers and manticores, but if there’s no consensus I’ll leave it. I definitely think the raptor damage channels need to be adjusted.

    #234187

    Zaskow
    Member

    Agreed with almost all OP’s suggestions.

    -Draconian Crushers

    Crushers are very mediocre units. Even with regrowth I don’t find them very tough and effective. Axeman or Broadsword is more reliable and wise choice.

    Draconian Chargers

    While they can beat hard they’re too squishy. Regrowth can’t change anything.

    -Draconian Raptors with 6/6 damage are a liability against high resistance units and without the benefit of “chilled” like the frostlings have. A 9/3 or 10/2 damage split would be better.

    I remember old raptors and they were much better, imao. I agree with 10/2 damage scheme, but I want to suggest to copy such method as it used with frostlings and their frost weapons. Give raptor 13 dmg in sum.

    -Tigran Prowlers

    Agreed, not very effective unit. I don’t know how it must be buffed. Also RG upgrade for him is mediocre.

    -Please give Sphinx devout. It’s completely logical for the unit (a dedicated servant of Yaka) and would make tigran theocrat viable.

    Hmm, why not?

    -Please give mammoth riders fast healing

    Mammoth is one of the best cavalry in game. Buff it further? I don’t know…

    -Manticores received massive buffs on 1.5, bringing much loved racial differentiation to the units. This is great, but manticores were already one of the best T4s to begin with. I think some sort of nerf would be reasonable. Especially with the production bonuses from racial governance upgrades.

    Manticore is just too spammable and strong with all warlord upgrades. You can overwhelm any army just with their quantity.

    -Partisan: I think the mana upkeep cost on hideout is probably too high, and guerrilla tactics is one I can’t find a reasonable use for. Maybe expanding the types of units it effects would help.

    Partisan has too few spells and techs at all. Guerrilla tactics isn’t very amazing. War anthem is weak for its price.

    -A few druid animals are in need of some love. Namely, boars, wargs, blight boars, and bleak wargs.

    Already discussed numerous times. Situation is still the same. All hopes to modders…

    Yeah no. The strength of the manticore in the late game is illusory. Any of the other t-4 sets beats the pants off it one on one, or even when the manticores have a slight numerical advantage. Gods and Reapers just do it most obviously.

    Problem is that manticores will always outnumber your t4s. And not very slightly…

    #234206

    freese2112
    Member

    Deleted – repetitive.

    #234223

    llfoso
    Member

    I remember old raptors and they were much better, imao. I agree with 10/2 damage scheme, but I want to suggest to copy such method as it used with frostlings and their frost weapons. Give raptor 13 dmg in sum.

    I almost want to suggest taking them back to pure physical, because I agree the old ones were better. But that’s boring, so maybe 10/3 or 11/2 is the way to go.
    What would be really interesting is if they switched it up and made the fire damage doninate. Like 3 phys 10 fire.

    #234322

    TBH I find Partisan’s most useful ability its default (the ability to buy units from inns at a discount). I agree some of the skills are lackluster. For draconian crushers and riders I agree they are a bit weak. I disagree with most other changes.

    Draconian pikemen are fine. They are not tanky but they are good offensive units.

    Goblin berserkers are fine, you can produce them without upgrading to warhall and are cheaper than warg riders in terms of gold cost.

    Mammoth riders are strong enough. They can by annoying to use but you can always use the healing pumpkins (or whatever they’re called).

    I think prowlers are fine.

    Druid animals… I think it would add flavour if some of them had an extra ability added to them but I don’t think it would make a big difference. Ultimately most will serve scouting/early game site clearing purposes.

    For manticores I think they are mostly okay. Perhaps a tad too cheap in cost.

    #235190

    Bouh
    Member

    People asking for the raptor to change are silly. Fire damage is the best damage channel now, and combined with physical it means nothing in the game short of and handful of units can resist it.

    If high resistance is a problem, you have chargers and flyers to take care of it. For everything else, you have your valiant raptor. And for anything tier2 or below, resistance is definitely not a problem.

    #235193

    quo
    Member

    #1 thing for me to get fixed, tho it may be out of scope this late in development, would be a fix for Builders fleeing autocombat. This is a game changing thing, forces every battle with a Builder in it to be played in Manual. This is something a mod can’t fix, unfortunately.

    -Please give Sphinx devout. It’s completely logical for the unit (a dedicated servant of Yaka) and would make tigran theocrat viable.

    Agree. Make sense for the unit and for game balance.

    A few other small things:

    Wargs. In one of our longer discussion threads, we had talked about Wargs losing First Strike and gaining Devour Corpse instead. It seemed like a lot of people liked to that idea, and it matches the unit’s description, which vaguely references Little Red Riding Hood and the grandma eating incident.

    Evangelists. After so many rounds of XP nerfs is it still necessary for Touch of Faith to 1:combat?

    Domain of… spells Could these be made to affect more than one type of terrain with some overlapping? Domain of Earth in particular stands out here, because in a lot of games it does nothing at all, since it only affects underground tiles. Here’s what I suggest:
    – Domain of Life – Temperate, and Water/Underground Water
    – Domain of Blight – Blight and Underground
    – Domain of Earth – Underground and Volcanic
    – Domain of Air – Arctic and Temperate
    – Domain of the Sun – No change needed, because it already affects 2 terrains.

    This would make Domain of Earth less generally useless, add Blight as a second spec for going underground with (which IMO fits its thematics well). I did mod this in myself but it seems like it would be fairly popular in the “real” game. At the very least, doing it for Domain of Earth?

    #235196

    Domain of… spells Could these be made to affect more than one type of terrain with some overlapping? Domain of Earth in particular stands out here, because in a lot of games it does nothing at all, since it only affects underground tiles. Here’s what I suggest:
    – Domain of Life – Temperate, and Water/Underground Water
    – Domain of Blight – Blight and Underground
    – Domain of Earth – Underground and Volcanic
    – Domain of Air – Arctic and Temperate
    – Domain of the Sun – No change needed, because it already affects 2 terrains.

    This would make Domain of Earth less generally useless, add Blight as a second spec for going underground with (which IMO fits its thematics well). I did mod this in myself but it seems like it would be fairly popular in the “real” game. At the very least, doing it for Domain of Earth?

    Sounds good, it would make these spells a lot more interesting.

    #235420

    llfoso
    Member

    Draconian pikemen are fine. They are not tanky but they are good offensive units.

    Goblin berserkers are fine, you can produce them without upgrading to warhall and are cheaper than warg riders in terms of gold cost.

    Mammoth riders are strong enough. They can by annoying to use but you can always use the healing pumpkins (or whatever they’re called).

    I think prowlers are fine.

    I disagree, but whatever, that’s fine.
    On mammoths, melons aren’t always around. And “annoying to use” translates to “anti-fun” for me.

    People asking for the raptor to change are silly. Fire damage is the best damage channel now, and combined with physical it means nothing in the game short of and handful of units can resist it.

    If high resistance is a problem, you have chargers and flyers to take care of it. For everything else, you have your valiant raptor. And for anything tier2 or below, resistance is definitely not a problem.

    Well, you probably have more experience than me, but since the change it seems like my raptors have become so ineffective – my warg riders have better survival rates.

    #1 thing for me to get fixed, tho it may be out of scope this late in development, would be a fix for Builders fleeing autocombat. This is a game changing thing, forces every battle with a Builder in it to be played in Manual. This is something a mod can’t fix, unfortunately.

    YES! Even in manual, when you attack and it runs you have to chase it down at the end and it’s just pointless and annoying.

    Wargs. In one of our longer discussion threads, we had talked about Wargs losing First Strike and gaining Devour Corpse instead. It seemed like a lot of people liked to that idea, and it matches the unit’s description, which vaguely references Little Red Riding Hood and the grandma eating incident.

    Cool idea.

    Evangelists. After so many rounds of XP nerfs is it still necessary for Touch of Faith to 1:combat?

    I’m fine with evangelists as they are now, they do like 17 melee damage…

    Domain of… spells Could these be made to affect more than one type of terrain with some overlapping? Domain of Earth in particular stands out here, because in a lot of games it does nothing at all, since it only affects underground tiles. Here’s what I suggest:
    – Domain of Life – Temperate, and Water/Underground Water
    – Domain of Blight – Blight and Underground
    – Domain of Earth – Underground and Volcanic
    – Domain of Air – Arctic and Temperate
    – Domain of the Sun – No change needed, because it already affects 2 terrains.

    The problem is these spells are really strong. They’re like Iron Grip except they scale with the city. Are you sure this wouldn’t unbalance them?

    #235449

    quo
    Member

    The problem is these spells are really strong. They’re like Iron Grip except they scale with the city. Are you sure this wouldn’t unbalance them?

    Pretty much yeah. Domain of Earth in particular. It does nothing at all if Underground is turned off and you can’t create Volcanic terrain.

    #235464

    llfoso
    Member

    Actually, considering fire does work for two…yeah it is fine. Ok I back this idea.

    #237643

    Hiliadan
    Member

    Isn’t Stiffen Limbs overpowered compared to other spells with (partially) similar effects in terms of casting cost?
    For instance Theocrat’s Slayer’s Doubt costs 8 (instead of 7! which means you cannot cast it twice on a starting 15 CP) also but has relatively some chances to fail (high against guarding T3 or T4 or support with high res) whereas Stiffen Limbs always success and instead of -800 morale (which is surely good), it gives -2 def, -2 damage.

    #237691

    It is a strong spell if you compare 1:1 but it is fine in the grand scheme of things. If anything Necro should be buffed in their late game.

    #237981

    xlnt
    Member

    Stiffen Limbs is OP (-12MP!)
    Skin of Oil is OP
    both are way better to be left un-resisted (imo)

    i also find that Star Blades is OP (allows turn 5-10 full Dungeon, no loses -> get 2x tier3 units and 400gold)
    – too cheap
    – provides too much dmg 3-6-9 per hit! if used with -resist or just vs creatures with low resist / flank..

    #237982

    xlnt
    Member

    Stiffen Limbs is OP (-12MP!)
    Skin of Oil is OP
    both are way better (than the rest..) to be left un-resisted (imo)

    i also find that Star Blades is OP (allows turn 5-10 full Dungeon, no loses -> get 2x tier3 units and 400gold)
    – too cheap
    – provides too much dmg 3-6-9 per hit! if used with -resist or just vs creatures with low resist / flank..

    #237989

    cbower
    Member

    Isn’t Stiffen Limbs overpowered compared to other spells with (partially) similar effects in terms of casting cost?
    For instance Theocrat’s Slayer’s Doubt costs 8 (instead of 7! which means you cannot cast it twice on a starting 15 CP) also but has relatively some chances to fail (high against guarding T3 or T4 or support with high res) whereas Stiffen Limbs always success and instead of -800 morale (which is surely good), it gives -2 def, -2 damage.

    I will have to pay more attention in game, but I think the -18 mp vs -12 mp is significant. If I am remembering correctly it’s the difference on a 28/32 MP of a 1 hex radius movement with Slayer’s Doubt versus 2 hexes with Stiffen Limbs. I think you can make an argument for Stiffen Limbs being better, but Slayers Doubt has it merits.

    #237990

    cbower
    Member

    I meant 28/30 for 1 hex. I think 32 might be 2 hexes for both, then 36 is 3 hexes for stiffen limbs vs 2 for Slayers Doubt. I think anyways, can somebody confirm?

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by  cbower.
    #237999

    Gloweye
    Member

    I meant 28/30 for 1 hex. I think 32 might be 2 hexes for both, then 36 is 3 hexes for stiffen limbs vs 2 for Slayers Doubt. I think anyways, can somebody confirm?

    cost is 6 per hex, so it’s always 1 hex difference, unless we’re talking about Athletics breakpoints.

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