Research Overspill

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Research Overspill

This topic contains 78 replies, has 25 voices, and was last updated by  NINJEW 6 years, 9 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 79 total)
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  • #219227

    ExNihil
    Member

    Yes, This is another thread calling for research overspill! Join my brothers and sisters, fellow geeks, in crying out for research overspill! No more lost RP, no more research t1 60RP spells in late game and wasting 200RP doing so, no more! A new day is dawning, here is some inspiring music:

    #219231

    NINJEW
    Member

    my opinion is no but it is hard to fight the ussr

    #219239

    The Mentat
    Member

    I completely support research overspill. It reduces micromanagement (counting candles) and makes in general “Seek Knowledge” to a more viable option.

    #219240

    NINJEW
    Member

    opposing viewpoint: lack of research overspill discourages hard teching, and encourages researching early spells early in the game, when they are meant to be used

    #219245

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Agree with NINJEW.

    #219248

    Taykor
    Member

    Of course I’m for research overspill. I think that micromanaging research is no fun and the game must not force us to learn low-level spells early. I don’t care at all for ‘hard teching’ (whatever this is) and all other arguments about how fun and useful an absence of overspill is. It just must be in a game.

    #219253

    ExNihil
    Member

    This could just as well be a toggle option – on / off, so people can do whatever they prefer. The code is already there I think for overspill anyhow, so this wouldn’t be difficult to implement.

    #219263

    Gloweye
    Member

    I’m 100% in favor.

    #219265

    Assuming that research and mana are separate resources, I prefer not to have research overflow.

    If they were combined back into the mana slider of previous games I would prefer that though. Set how much of your mana income goes towards mana cryatals, and how much goes towards research. When a spell is researched, any excess research for that turn is converted into mana crystals. This gives more control to the player, while removing any significant penalty for people who are worried about “wasting” anything other than time.

    #219309

    ExNihil
    Member

    Well, I’m for simple overspill really, but if this needs to be balanced somehow it could be done with buildings.

    Simple example: Each lab could preserve up to 5 points of research. Meaning, if you got 10 labs, you can have 50RP overspill. This is just an example OFC, this could be tied to all sorts of research buildings, some class buildings, dungeons and mythical structures and so forth.

    I guess this would add an interestining mechanic in which a player might choose to stockpile some research and keep a cache of it to be able to go for new spells/techs very fast when the need arises.

    #219312

    Yes and No.

    Yes because it makes a certain amount of sense, and would effectively buff Elves.

    No, because then we need to overspill everything (production) and I also think things are researched a bit too fast anyway!

    #219313

    @ Ex, stockpiling sounds very much like Endless Legends…

    #219314

    ExNihil
    Member

    I must say I didn’t manage to play that game for more than 1 hour, although it was still in beta then, so maybe it’s now better. Anyhow, I don’t think AoW3 is in any danger of becoming Endless Legends, although Endless Space is one of my favorite games.

    No, because then we need to overspill everything (production) and I also think things are researched a bit too fast anyway!

    Not necessarily at all. Production overspill would simply buff production based classes, whereby research overspill will affect everyone. Research speed could be adjusted through game speed, and I assume this could be tweaked with ease. If it is desirable to slow down research with overspill this could easly be done by readjusting the RP costs of spells to compensate. I can’t say without testing what will be the impact but I doubt it would be drastically faster in the early-mid game.

    #219318

    SeeR
    Member

    Assuming that research and mana are separate resources, I prefer not to have research overflow.

    If they were combined back into the mana slider of previous games I would prefer that though. Set how much of your mana income goes towards mana cryatals, and how much goes towards research. When a spell is researched, any excess research for that turn is converted into mana crystals. This gives more control to the player, while removing any significant penalty for people who are worried about “wasting” anything other than time.

    I agree completely that a slider bar to adjust how u use the man/research would be awesome and provide a lot of flexibility to the game.

    #219319

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I also think things are researched a bit too fast anyway!

    I think that as well. Any strong feeling how to change that?

    #219324

    Gloweye
    Member

    Yes and No.

    Yes because it makes a certain amount of sense, and would effectively buff Elves.

    No, because then we need to overspill everything (production) and I also think things are researched a bit too fast anyway!

    Production Overflow isn’t a bad thing either, and if it proves to fast there could be a global increase in research costs.

    Production overflow might just as well justify a production increase if the summoning classes suffer to much.

    #219325

    Akinaba
    Member

    1. Lol’d hardly @ OP’s post

    2.

    I also think things are researched a bit too fast anyway!

    Me agwees.

    #219344

    NINJEW
    Member

    production overflow is kind of an important part of the game’s balance, since it makes the small differences in cost between similar units meaningful. if you just barely have the production to 1turn a human berserker, having to pay 10 more gold for a tigran berserker or whatever doesn’t mean much if you’re still producing 9 in 10 turns anyways (you’ll produce none the first turn, then 1 per turn after that under production overflow). with production overflow, however, that cost difference is very meaningful, since it’s the difference between producing 10 in 10 turns and producing 5 in 10 turns. with production overflow, the cost increase i just that: gold cost only, and the cost in gold between racial variations is too minor to really matter much in a plain additional-gold-spent perspective.

    providing options to toggle overflow on and off isn’t very satisfying, since it’s an option that changes the game balance quite a bit, and also unevenly (racial variants that are normally balanced by costing a bit more are suddenly way more powerful, since massing them is way easier)

    research doesn’t have the same minor variations in cost, so this isn’t as important an aspect of balance here. still, no overflow does affect a few things:

    opposing viewpoint: lack of research overspill discourages hard teching, and encourages researching early spells early in the game, when they are meant to be used

    in particular, the thresholding prevents players with very high research (such as sorcerer players) from suddenly shifting gears off of hard teching and immediately researching half their spellbook in a single turn. it makes choosing to hard tech for a more powerful research a more interesting decision, as you are not only giving up having your early spell options early, but are also delaying them unnecessarily once your hard teching is done. this allows for players who didn’t choose to hard tech a greater opportunity to leverage the tech advantages they invested in instead, as a way of dulling the instant-win button that, say, early access to horrors might grant you (since you’re losing out on smaller techs like cp, star blades, chain lightning, glyphs of warding, and other such smaller techs), since you also don’t immediately gain access to half the spells you skipped over on the very next turn. it makes hard teching come with a higher opportunity cost, which makes for a more interesting game.

    #219385

    Kaiosama TLJ
    Member

    Yes and No.

    Yes because it makes a certain amount of sense, and would effectively buff Elves.

    No, because then we need to overspill everything (production) and I also think things are researched a bit too fast anyway!

    You have a fair point.

    But if research becomes too fast with this feature maybe we can balance things again by increasing the reseach cost of some techs a little bit.

    #219387

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Agree with NINJEW

    #219397

    Hatmage
    Member

    I think that having half or a quarter of excess candles spill over might be workable, or having spilled research only applicable to techs you can research in one turn, but either of those would be a lot of work.

    Seek Knowledge could perhaps use some rounding up toward multiples of 5 or 10 though.

    I don’t terribly care about wasting research when finishing a tech over multiple turns, but being able to research 2 techs at once at ~150% total research cost could be a neat feature for picking up small techs you left behind, though it might swing too far toward incentivising grabbing huge upgrades early (to get Seer, for example) and smaller spells later.

    My view on both this and production overspill is that they are only problems when they reduce the time needed to attain big spells/upgrades/units, and that churning out two T1s in a turn is unlikely to break anything, but I’ll admit that there isn’t any solid math behind that thought and I could well be wrong.

    #219401

    NINJEW
    Member

    churning out two T1s in a turn is unlikely to break anything

    actually it would break everything, since 2 t1s will be more cost effective than any higher tier unit, and the biggest things that higher tier units have going for them is being compact with their power and being able to output that pwoer at a higher rate (because of no production overflow)

    you’d have to rebalance every t2 and up unit to make them ever be worthwhile to build over building that same weight in t1s in the same amount of time. any t4 can be beaten through chain flanking and AP draining by an equivalent-value horde of t1s.

    #219403

    Exactly. It could be made to work, and IMHO would make for an overall better game.

    However it’s not a trivial thing and can’t simply be made into a toggle.

    If nothing else changed then the early game would be faster, which goes against the general trend of the patches, which has been to make the early game slower \last longer.

    #219413

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I totally differ, imo, the game would take a steep drop and become boring, but I don’t want to discuss that again.

    #219419

    Taykor
    Member

    Exactly. It could be made to work, and IMHO would make for an overall better game.

    Agreed.
    And this is actually the most important thought here.

    All this reasoning about how meaningful an absence of overspill in the current system is is true and completely meaningless. It’s just doesn’t matter.
    And no, boredom has absolutely nothing to do with the situation here. A micromanagement is definitely not what makes this game interesting. It’s like moving workers back and forth in the Endless Legend – completely meaningless chore.

    #219428

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    It’s no micro management – never has been, by the way. It would be micro management if optimizing research was the SOLE way to go. It isn’t, though. You can waste a lot of research and still be way better off than someone blindly “optimizing” overspill.
    An example for micro management would be something that needed permanent adjustment for optimization, while without adjustment you’d simply lose a couple of gold or pop or whatever (without gain otherwise).

    The same is true for production.

    Which means, the whole “Micro management” claim is simply nonsense.
    Which also means, everyone who comes with that point is either totally clueless and bangs around with handy terms – or dishonest.

    #219430

    SiaFu
    Member

    It doesn’t have to be a constant chore to be micromanagement. The lack of overspill affects the choice in research and that is enough for it to be an issue.
    It’s not just an OCD-type “no KP left unused” nagging feeling, it can lead to sorting through a dozen cities trying to find which one could be turned to Seeking knowledge instead of producing merchandise or something more useful so you can get a 140KP spell while you have 133, or vice-versa for overspill.

    A 60 KP spell coming up while I’m producing 300 KP per turn isn’t a small thing as AI values KP at 5:1 to gold (got that from an old post somewhere on this forum). While OTOH, if I raid a Lich King’s Castle I can get 700KP (very strong defenders) and could get 5 spells researched in a single turn.
    Hunting for Sage and All Knowing also depends on your research strategy – do you get what you need now or commit to a bonus somewhere down the line.

    I liked the research overspill from AoW 1. Push the slider to max research, any extra goes to mana and your knowledge infrastructure doesn’t sit useless in an XL map endgame (in AoW3, you also get thousands of KP stockpiled from happiness events). It’d be an easier system to balance as the KP to MP conversion can be adjusted and the benefit is limited by your max mana capacity (so you can’t stockpile limitless mana like gold).
    The drawback to balancing would be that you’d have more fuel to waste CP and could milk AIs for gold each turn, even though the exchange rate is 1m:1g since EL (used to be 1m:2g).

    Analogous: the exchange of excess production to gold would smply have to offer a worse exchange rate than Produce merchandise, and you still shouldn’t produce multiple units per turn (the balance nightmare).

    P.S. Yes, I know – in AoW1 your research infrastructure were your Leader and Heroes, but for the sake of comparison…

    #219433

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    It doesn’t have to be a constant chore to be micromanagement. The lack of overspill affects the choice in research and that is enough for it to be an issue.

    I wouldn’t call it an issue, but an opportunity cost.
    Say, you have research 55.
    With overspill you wouldn’t bother much and research what you want to research at that point.
    However, no overspill is a second point of interest. If you still have a Res 60 open, this is a bad choice, unless you can produce knowledge at a town, which may not be possible at that precise moment. Going for CP Increase III for 160 would be quite a good fit – but is that really the best option? You may be able to get a very good 120 Res in two turns getting, 10+ via 1-turn produce Knowledge. There also may be a good 220 tech – perfect fit.

    Also, you’d wnt to get rid of the 60 techs as soon as you hit 60 res…

    I think, it adds a nice dimension, without being overly pesky, and it prolonges the research process in general which is good, since ideally, when you researched everything the game should be over which is certainly not the case, while playing with double the cost draws out early game and can be rather frustrating.

    #219438

    Taykor
    Member

    It’s no micro management…

    I don’t care what you think micromanagement is. Like at all. For me it is a micromanagement. And definitely a chore. So you just invent some meaningless definition and on this ground call another post nonsense.
    Which means, your whole “Micro management is nonsense” claim is simply nonsense.

    #219440

    terrahero
    Member

    I’m against overflow of research (and production for that matter). You can play the game perfectly fine upto the highest difficulty without pondering hard about how you optimize your cities and goals.

    But for those who seek it, it is an extra challenge to optimize their performance for which they can get rewarded in improved empire performance. I dont think we need to change this to fit the ideal of “just spam whatever resource generator and its always 100% effective”.
    I think managing your resource income, how it is generated and spend, is a welcome piece of depth to the gameplay.

    I would hardly call it micromanagement, it’s a fairly basic math of addition and subtraction. It won’t take you breaking out all kinds of spreadsheets or calculators to see that what you can currently produce is not going to get produced any faster when you build that Siege Workshop. So unless you really want Trebuchets it might be worth going for another upgrade instead, or build up army, that you will benefit you more.
    Or you can build the Siege Workshop regardless, and you’ll probably be fine either way.

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