Rogue vs necro

We’ve moved over to the paradox forums. Please come visit us there to discuss:
You can still read the collective wisdom - and lolz - of the community here, but posting is no longer possible.

This topic contains 102 replies, has 20 voices, and was last updated by  ExNihil 6 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 103 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #208095

    AbednegoJC
    Member

    Hey. I played many games recently vs rogue, lot of times for necro.
    And I have to say, rogue has very little chances vs necro (not counting tigran or human rogue, but still, its not class for supports)

    Lets see it:

    Scoundrel: weak attack, without backstab (which doesnt works vs necro as far as I know) is useless
    Assasin: same way, assasins strike lost 1/3 of his force (blight dmg) + no backstab (undead slayer doesnt actually make it better because its still smaller dmg than blight would do on non-necro units)
    Bard: Thats not really warrior, also charm doesnt work on undeads too (didnt tried but I suppose)
    Stalker (and lesser). Yea, this is force comparable with necro forces, but still, compared to banshee.. banshee have physical and frost rezist but does frost + spirit. Stalker has physical + frost dmg but now spirit rezist. Also bansheee is t2 and stalker missing backstab. This makes this fight really close but banshee is much lower tech than stalker.
    Succubus? Curse and charm doesnt work on undead.

    Yes, rogue has slightly better mobility + better scouts, but is it enough? I think its not. Rogue just need some combat buff vs necro.

    I think that good job would be if researching cruel backstab made backstabbing work on undeads for rogue. This would prevent backstabbing other classes when they get backstab unit on necro… and it would buffed rogue vs undeads.

    #208109

    Bouh
    Member

    While the idea is interesting (a backstab that works against undeads), I think the analysis of the situation is very weak because you only considered class units.

    Incite revolt works against undead by removing population instead of moral, and that can cripple the necromancer economy rather early. There are also the racial units you can rely on.

    Of course that doesn’t turn a bad matchup into an easy victory, but IMO that needs to be considered. You don’t need to rely on class units anyway.

    #208122

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I think, that Rogue is just in a slightly worse situation aginst Necro than everyone else is.
    Imo, the tech that gives Supports Heal Undead (on a cooldown!) and Reanimators Lesser Reanimation is just too beefy, especially considering that the Frostling T3 is a Support as well.
    Frostlings RG 5 is Frost Aura at that. Add to that the fact that they have 100% Blight AND Frost (making certain sites a cakewalk), that combination is especially powerful. No matter what you pick, everything except Fire and Spirit is rather useless, and you need to hit them as early as you can.

    Problem would seem to be Necro, not Rogue.

    #208124

    Zaskow
    Member

    Totally agree with TS. I don’t get the idea, why undead must not suffer from hitting into weak points.

    #208125

    Gloweye
    Member

    Scoundrel: weak attack, without backstab (which doesnt works vs necro as far as I know) is useless

    You know correct

    Bard: Thats not really warrior, also charm doesnt work on undeads too (didnt tried but I suppose)

    Here to.

    Personally, I think Undead Slayer on Assassins was supposed to be a kind of compensation, but I agree with you it’s still weaker than blight damage.

    Basically, Rogue has no chance until Stalkers. After that, I think he poses enough of a problem in many cases (obsoleting for example ranged attacks from reanimators(which the Auto-Combat AI resolves by attacking with Melee), as well as much other damage types). Banshees are the best counter(well, 1 Reaper > 1 Banshee, but 2 Banshee > 1 Reaper in this case IMO), but luckily for the rogue they aren’t cheap, and Necro has more research priorities than CP.

    Overall, I agree the rogue might need some other way to harm Necro’s.

    #208129

    Let’s see if this can make it to 24 pages as well.

    *Whistles for Bouh*

    #208130

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    That’s what I’ve been saying all along. Ghouls gain immunity against all kinds of very dangerous abilities: Convert, Charm, Seduce – they basically have all strong will. Add to that the Blight immunity, and the -1 Defense is not really a problem.
    Then add the vast array of healing, animating and resurgence options, and, well, it gets difficult.
    So the problem aren’t really the Class units. The problem is that the racial units are changed into something completely different that synergizes.

    Would be comparable with Dread making their town’s population “constructs”, racial units becoming machines.

    That’s why I suggested to try and test a -4 MP for all GHOULS (not class units). That would simply slow them down a hex, each turn, while not dropping combat speed below 4.

    Another option might be to put bigger cooldown on Heal Undead. Or to have a new Lesser Heal Undead that Supports would gain with the respective Tech (that would heal less HP). And to decrease animated undead HPs to only 30% or so…

    Yet another option is a reduction of the Blight resistance. Sure, you’d think Blight can’t touch them – but actually, if a corpse is rotting, it virtually melts and a melting corpse can’t hold weapon.

    #208136

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    I think, that Rogue is just in a slightly worse situation aginst Necro than everyone else is.
    Imo, the tech that gives Supports Heal Undead (on a cooldown!) and Reanimators Lesser Reanimation is just too beefy, especially considering that the Frostling T3 is a Support as well.
    Frostlings RG 5 is Frost Aura at that. Add to that the fact that they have 100% Blight AND Frost (making certain sites a cakewalk), that combination is especially powerful. No matter what you pick, everything except Fire and Spirit is rather useless, and you need to hit them as early as you can.

    Problem would seem to be Necro, not Rogue.

    I agree with much of this. The problem is the undead are supposed to be weak because they don’t regenerate but then are given extremely powerful tools that make this weakness non-existant.

    However the consensus seems to be that necros are weak since they keep getting buffed. So I doubt much will come from the call to weaken the necros even slightly.

    #208140

    Zaskow
    Member

    *Whistles for Bouh*

    http://ageofwonders.com/forums/topic/rogue-vs-necro/#post-208109

    That’s what I’ve been saying all along. Ghouls gain immunity against all kinds of very dangerous abilities: Convert, Charm, Seduce – they basically have all strong will.

    Not strong will, just Mind control immunity. Also we have control undead – very uncommon though…

    That’s why I suggested to try and test a -4 MP for all GHOULS (not class units). That would simply slow them down a hex, each turn, while not dropping combat speed below 4.

    This is not decision. People will begin to ignore ghouls, because limiting mobility.

    Another option might be to put bigger cooldown on Heal Undead.

    In most battles Heal undead already uses 1 time.

    Or to have a new Lesser Heal Undead that Supports would gain with the respective Tech (that would heal less HP)

    Seems reasonable. Making it something like Mend magical beings.

    Yet another option is a reduction of the Blight resistance. Sure, you’d think Blight can’t touch them – but actually, if a corpse is rotting, it virtually melts and a melting corpse can’t hold weapon.

    I tend to agree. Nerf all Ghouls to 60-80% blight protection and only some undeads will have totally 100% blight protection – Banshees, Reapers.

    #208146

    Bouh
    Member

    I agree with Jolly Joker and ArcaneSeraph mostly. For each weakness undeads have, the necromancer gets one or two mighty things to counter or compensate the weakness.

    But I don’t think the rogue needs anything more. Economy warfare is a rogue strong point, and economy is the supposed weakness of the necromancer. With the right race and specialization you can still fight the necromancer too. Assassins, even without blight damage, will hit strong enough.

    But I think people still need to get more comfortable with the necromancer before we can see his true might so by this time I doubt a discussion will give results.

    #208152

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Just out of curiosity – keep Ghouls their Charm, Seduce and Convert ailities? No idea, actually. What if you Ghoul Curse a Succubus? Can she still seduce? 🙂

    I’d like to add that I really like the Necro Class units.
    The problem are the Ghouls and the fact that they get what is in effect a host of new attributes and abilities due to this.
    The economy doesn’t strike me as awfully handicapped – especially since you can also strike against other players’s towns (undead plague), and the general +15% are acceptable. You simply need a little more base investment.

    I’m also not sure whether it is a good idea to simply add the resistancies and weaknesses of race and ghoul. That seems somewhat strange.

    The question is whether Ghopuls shouldn’t end up somewhat weaker than the real living thing, considering that they gain mind control immunity anyway. You might consider the loss of their regeneration ability something of a downside – it would be a more of a downside if Reanimators were a bit less than just awesome units and Healing ceased to be a problem with the Support Heal tech.
    So shouldn’t resistancy things even out? As in, like, Blight 60% Res, Cold 40% Res, Fire 40% Weak, Spirit 40% Weak, Shock 20% Weak? adding up to zero.
    -1 Def would be a consequence of being slower (do undead have reflexes?)
    Necromancers might have +20 Fire Res for the whole army ability, example, to make up for, but the general impression is that Ghouls are pretty frigging great. TOO great. I mean, Cadavers, THAT’s a nice one.

    I really wonder – any downside with Necros?

    #208166

    Aameul
    Member

    Ghoul status gives -1 def and -20% Spirit res, so they are extra vulnerable to a common undead counter with a base 60% Spirit weakness.

    #208167

    Zaskow
    Member

    Just out of curiosity – keep Ghouls their Charm, Seduce and Convert ailities? No idea, actually. What if you Ghoul Curse a Succubus? Can she still seduce? 🙂

    Yes. All abilities are present and usable.

    the general impression is that Ghouls are pretty frigging great.

    The main problem isn’t Ghouls. Real problem is a lot of synergies which help Necro very much. Reanimators + Banshees combo, Inflict despair + exploit despair combo, inflict despair + death finger combo, inflict despair + ghoul curse combo etc.

    #208171

    So I’ve always thought that the corpse looting spell should give undead slayer to more rogue units. You could even make it stack, so corpse looting assassins do +6. Or that could unlock the back stab vs. Undead application (so it is like the support slayer spell for theocrats).

    And I haven’t found scoundrels to be that bad vs early ghouls, because cripple works on the undead.

    #208185

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Just out of curiosity – keep Ghouls their Charm, Seduce and Convert ailities? No idea, actually. What if you Ghoul Curse a Succubus? Can she still seduce? :)

    Yes. All abilities are present and usable.

    the general impression is that Ghouls are pretty frigging great.

    The main problem isn’t Ghouls. Real problem is a lot of synergies which help Necro very much. Reanimators + Banshees combo, Inflict despair + exploit despair combo, inflict despair + death finger combo, inflict despair + ghoul curse combo etc.

    No, that’s not the real problem. The class units are good, of course, great even, but that’s true for everyone else as well, if you get them going.
    However – as we can see in the Theocrat discussion – Class alone is only part of it. With everyone else (Except dread) race influences class; Dwarven Monster Hunter differ from Elven or Halfling Monster Hunters, so race tweaks class to something slightly different.
    Not so with Necro, here it’s the other way round. Class units are that, with the exception of the Reanimator and the Deathbringer. However, Class tweaks RACE to something VERY different.
    If Necro would play with regular living racial troops things would look a lot different. Imagine Necro with normal racial troops without Heal Undead Tech and Reanimators with a more meagre Heal Undead and things would change (not that I would want that).
    But as it is, there are too many eggs that are in the same basket (in case of dread, you also get tech for your race troops, but not in synergy with machines). With Dread only Class units have these massive ummunities, for example. With Necro, though …

    #208202

    Zaskow
    Member

    With everyone else (Except dread) race influences class

    Sorc too.

    #208207

    The question is whether Ghopuls shouldn’t end up somewhat weaker than the real living thing,

    I believe the idea behind the Embalmer’s Guild etc is to compensate for the Ghouls being weak, and those were reduced in price…(maybe that should be reverted?)

    If Necro would play with regular living racial troops things would look a lot different

    We did try it, but the results were a weaker, less focussed, more boring class, but maybe things were overcompensated, so that

    But as it is, there are too many eggs that are in the same basket

    [/quote]

    Anyway, this is an interesting discussion, but ultimately I imagine the same arguments of Theo/Dread will end up applying…

    #208208

    Someone suggested that Crows should get bonuses against the Undead, which I thought was pretty cool.

    #208210

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    Anyway, this is an interesting discussion, but ultimately I imagine the same arguments of Theo/Dread will end up applying…

    Was thinking the same thing. The problem when you include the entire game in the balance discussion (all settings, units, races, specs, and classes) there will always be theoretical counters to proposed issues.

    That’s why your suggestion the other day to at least limit the discussion to specific settings and conditions was a good one. It helps focus the discussion and helps distinguish the true problems. Then we can discuss if those problems can be improved without impacting other modes too much.

    #208211

    Zaskow
    Member

    Someone suggested that Crows should get bonuses against the Undead, which I thought was pretty cool.

    This bonus would be senseless, because crows is scout unit, not the front-line.

    #208218

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I also thinks it makes no sense.

    It IS interesting that Necro once worked with regular troops, albeit I agree that this wouldn’t nearly be as much fun.
    It’s just that loss of reg has been overcompensated by a lot of Healing and a lot of resistance and immunity.

    I’m the first to admit that finding the balance is difficult here, since Necro differs in everything.

    #208266

    Why? Crows eat corpses, and that would reinforce the superior scouting of the rogue.

    Anyway, another solution is an acid strike that works like holy champion. It only triggers vs. armored, machine, or undead units, and does five fire. Put it on assassins strike, and the combo of fire and undead slayer makes things work out. Also works for the rogue hero.

    Also a bit of a nock on dwarves (not the firstborn and forge priests, of course). Probably also on the King Reed serpents spit attack.

    #208301

    yeah hordes of Crows = cheap = a nice way to smother the Undead.

    It also gives the Rogues a reliable, early game tool, but one that requires sacrifice in order to use, i.e. if you are fighting with them, you aren’t scouting.

    #208303

    Someone suggested that Crows should get bonuses against the Undead, which I thought was pretty cool.

    This bonus would be senseless, because crows is scout unit, not the front-line.

    That’s precisely why it makes sense. Rogue units are not meant to be “front line”…

    #208307

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    That’s not the reason why it doesn’t make sense – they might do higher damage against corpses, but they are STILL weak and would so squat against a banshee – or even a Lost Soul.
    That and the fact that you do NOT want to fight witch Crows, but gather intel.

    #208332

    I was thinking of them as a soft counter to ghouls, so specifically not Banshees or Lost Souls.

    I’m going to preemptively say that imho this is a fine matchup, as Rogues can destroy economy, and outscout them, and Necros are hardly fast moving.

    Plus Stalkers are godammed annoying to deal with as a Necromancer.

    #208338

    Bouh
    Member

    Like the theo vs dreadnought matchup, the rogue vs necromancer matchup shouldn’t be viewed from the battlefield point of you. It should be viewed on the strategic and economic point of view.

    For example, if you really want to do something you can remove true sight from reanimators or increase corpse looting gold reward on ghoul units.

    #208340

    Garresh
    Member

    Heh. The idea of crows vs undead is funny, but I strongly say no. The changes to scouts killed off the era of scout spam locking people down early, and Id rather not see a return to that. Scouts due to low cost and high mobility need to remain weak, as the timing when they come online is too early for people to have a good answer without severely limiting their earlygame growth. More importantly, theres no risk. You were summoning scouts anyway. Im not against rush tactics, but they need to have a tradeoff. A scout rush that fails wont slow your growth at all, but a scoundrel rush that fails will set you back a good bit.

    Rogues vs necros are an odd place to be sure, but Im hesitant to call for sweeping changes of any sort. They do need more firepower vs undead, but they also have some strong options via incite revolt. None of the conventional rogue strategies work vs necro, but the necromancer slow opening gives rogues some weird opportunities to out-grow the necro by fast expanding then trying to envelope them with incite revolts. Its a very passive aggressive style of conflict. I still feel unsure where and how it needs tweaking though(if it even does) because the long timing windows between first conflicts in a typical game creates an unusual metagame in itself which hasnt been fully explored yet.

    #208341

    Zaskow
    Member

    That’s precisely why it makes sense. Rogue units are not meant to be “front line”…

    Crows are scouts. They are weak in direct combat or do you really think that 9 dmg (with bonus) will decide anything?

    #208342

    Well, this one is somewhat more of an issue, because the classes tend to follow the same power trajectory, so there is no vast early game superiority for the rogue to bank on (as the theocrat has for the dreadnought).

    In fact, this seems like a big early game weakness, rather than a late game one.

    That isn’t a bad idea for reanimators. Makes them the corpse special people, but you need other support (without resurrection abilities) for detection.
    And you can sneak with scoundrels, so that seems like a substantial buff to them.

    When lesser stalkers launch, its fine, since you have more of them than banshees.

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 103 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.