Rogue vs necro

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This topic contains 102 replies, has 20 voices, and was last updated by  ExNihil 6 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 30 posts - 61 through 90 (of 103 total)
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  • #208797

    Zaskow
    Member

    What about turn undead for succubus? Its useless vs necro now, because curse and seduce doesnt works on undead… turn undead could solve this a bit.

    I don’t think that Turn undead for succubus is fitting. Maybe, Undead slayer is better?

    #208798

    Bouh
    Member

    And its not about me beating anybody, but that combo is just totally unfair for one side and some player really doesnt understand it.

    This combo is unfair to the one picking it.

    You are a competent MP player. You know that all race-class combo are not equal in all matchup. You know that all class-race combo can’t be effective in *all* situations. An orc rogue against a necromancer is probably among the worst matchup in this game (far worse indeed than theocrat-wahetever versus dreadnought).

    But here you are asking a buff for the rogue, not the orc or goblin. And that would make other races rogue still better than goblin or orc. And goblin or orc rogue would still be the worst possible matchup in the game. Because the elemental problem will be against necromancer incorporeals. And I don’t think there is any elegant way for the rogue to deal with incorporeals. The best I can think of would be something to target magical origin units or summons, but this would potentialy greatly modify rogue balance in other situations.

    That’s why I prefer strategic or economic solutions.

    Economicaly, necromancer weakness is the growth of his cities. Strategicaly, it’s his relyance on support for heal. That is another thing you can target.

    #208819

    Zaskow
    Member

    Strategicaly, it’s his relyance on support for heal. That is another thing you can target.

    Problem is that Reanimators are very effective units with big synergies of other necro units. Heal undead is a bonus, not the main.

    You know that all race-class combo are not equal in all matchup.

    In Aow3 better and worse matchups aren’t very common. Worst and best matchups – that’s real problem.

    #208821

    AbednegoJC
    Member

    And its not about me beating anybody, but that combo is just totally unfair for one side and some player really doesnt understand it.

    This combo is unfair to the one picking it.

    You are a competent MP player. You know that all race-class combo are not equal in all matchup. You know that all class-race combo can’t be effective in *all* situations. An orc rogue against a necromancer is probably among the worst matchup in this game (far worse indeed than theocrat-wahetever versus dreadnought).

    But here you are asking a buff for the rogue, not the orc or goblin. And that would make other races rogue still better than goblin or orc. And goblin or orc rogue would still be the worst possible matchup in the game. Because the elemental problem will be against necromancer incorporeals. And I don’t think there is any elegant way for the rogue to deal with incorporeals. The best I can think of would be something to target magical origin units or summons, but this would potentialy greatly modify rogue balance in other situations.

    That’s why I prefer strategic or economic solutions.

    Economicaly, necromancer weakness is the growth of his cities. Strategicaly, it’s his relyance on support for heal. That is another thing you can target.

    Rogue economy is strong enough, you cant buff it anymore or nerf necro eco.
    Yes it will be still worst combo, but it will be possible to play. In actual state of things, its gg for rogue unless something crazy happend (like early take dragon dwelling or take another race city and completely change strategy. but thats not orc-rogue anymore.

    And actually, theo vs dread isnt so weak as everybody think. In many situations theo can use his mobility and flying units for win. I have no problems with theo vs dread, actually I would prefer warlord or rogue or necro as oponent if I was dread.

    #208824

    Thematically, Rogues got something to counter Theocrats, and the Necromancer isn’t far off a Theocrat thematically.

    I can’t remember the name of it exactly, but that could be retooled to affect Ghouls.

    #208828

    AbednegoJC
    Member

    dirty half dozen.. well, its only for rogue hero but yea, better than nothing.

    Anyway, Im still for giving Turn undeat to succubi.

    #208868

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    I’m not convinced that rogues are that weak vs necros to be honest. I’ve only played one MP game in this combo though so I can’t speak to it as a MP authority. However I played as a frostling rogue (which has issues vs undead too) and still won fairly easily.

    Rogues have a much stronger early economy than necros so I was to get going much faster. I rushed to get myself some bards and charmed up the neighbourhood. That already gave me lots of options for fighting. Bards are a great choice against necros because they combat inflict despair. They also combo well with fire adept.

    With my extra forces I was able to go and make a nuisance of myself. Flying around with crows and using economy killing spells is very effective too. By the time I got my shadow stalkers to the front lines the game was over.

    Now maybe my opponent wasn’t an experienced necro. I honestly don’t know. He seemed to go for fast death bringers + reanimator teams. He spent too much time trying to catch my faster troops sneaking around causing havoc.

    The fights are hard. For both sides. It’s a slogfest as others have said. But the rogue has many tools at their disposal to win the economic fight far better than the necro.

    If the theocrat can use his greater mobility and flying units to defeat a dread then I don’t see why the same argument can’t be made for rogue vs necro. Regen succubus are excellent harassers and they don’t even need to attack sometimes. They can use incite revolt, plague of brigands, guild of shadow thieves. They can use offensive seduction to augment their harassing forces.

    #208874

    AbednegoJC
    Member

    If the theocrat can use his greater mobility and flying units to defeat a dread then I don’t see why the same argument can’t be made for rogue vs necro. Regen succubus are excellent harassers and they don’t even need to attack sometimes. They can use incite revolt, plague of brigands, guild of shadow thieves. They can use offensive seduction to augment their harassing forces.

    For first. One game doesnt prove anything.

    And to answer your question, why rogues cant use their mobility to outplay necro… because necro has t2 (banshee) and t4 (reaper) in the air. Dread has NOTHING except scouts in the air. and thats the point.

    #208880

    Bouh
    Member

    I can’t remember the name of it exactly, but that could be retooled to affect Ghouls.

    I’d rather make it affect support than ghouls ; more thematicaly fitting.

    Anyway, Im still for giving Turn undeat to succubi.

    I’d rather see turn undead onto bards. First because flying antiundead tools seems OP to me ; second because thematicaly I prefer some kind of song to have effect on undead than half daemons specializing into fighting them ; third because a slow T2 support is far less effective at murdering undead than a flying T3 one.

    Anyway, I still think that is unneeded considering the economic advantage and warfare abilities of the rogue combined to races and specializations possibilities.

    #208886

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    For first. One game doesnt prove anything.

    I said the same thing.

    And to answer your question, why rogues cant use their mobility to outplay necro… because necro has t2 (banshee) and t4 (reaper) in the air. Dread has NOTHING except scouts in the air. and thats the point.

    Reapers? Really? Reapers are summoned and very easily countered by shadow stalkers. It’s going to be late game before reapers show up so you’ve got lots of time to harass before hand.

    Banshees are 90 CP. That’s pretty darn expensive to mass to counter flying succubi. Succubi aren’t weak units either. Fireball or other similar spells make quick work of basshees. If the banshee is alone you can probably kill it with a couple of crows + fireballs. Unlike the theocrat all the rogue needs is to sneak in and cast spells on enemy cities. That’s pretty easy. And if you build a team of 4-6 succubi they can harass for quite a while before the necro will ever get enough bashees summoned to stop them. Meanwhile you are crippling their economy with spells that they aren’t disjucting because they are summoning bashees to stop you.

    #208887

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    I’d rather see turn undead onto bards. First because flying antiundead tools seems OP to me ; second because thematicaly I prefer some kind of song to have effect on undead than half daemons specializing into fighting them ; third because a slow T2 support is far less effective at murdering undead than a flying T3 one.

    Meh… I don’t like this idea at all. It makes bards far too effective at clearing undead populated sites. They aren’t very expensive, already good charming units and buffers. Turning them into a trivial counter to all undead seems terribly unbalanced to me.

    #208890

    AbednegoJC
    Member

    you really dont know what you are talking about. Necro has like 3 stacks of banshee turn 30…. you have 3 stacks of succubi that time? This isnt about harrasing single unit, but one or two stacks exalted/succubi/banshees …
    90cp is actually cheap, compared to 110cp vyverns of sorc…
    You can test it anytime, Im always up for game 😉

    #208896

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    you really dont know what you are talking about. Necro has like 3 stacks of banshee turn 30….

    First instead of providing counter arguments you just choose to insult me.

    Second you do realize how much CP that is right? 18 banshees by turn 30? 1620CP dedicated to nothing but banshees. That’s 54CP a turn! That’s assuming you are doing absolutely nothing else with your CP. No lost souls for scouting. No combat magic. No corrupt the source. No undead plague. You’d have to spend most of your time researching CP and nothing else leaving you behind on other critical research. All this from the slowest growing class in the game?

    But let’s assume they do have these 18 banshees for 1620CP. That’s 162 fireballs from the leader or 81 without. That’s going to kill those banshee pretty easily. I mean sure if they have all 18 together they are going to be hard to take down but that seems like terrible tactics on the part of the rogue. Letting the weak economy early game necro just sit around and summon hordes of banshees and do nothing about it? Be a rogue! Get in there and use your concealment to harass! It’s pretty poor rogue that can’t sneak up and cast incite revolt.

    The rogue is the master harassment class. If they can’t manage to harass the slow starting undead then there is something wrong with the rogue. You hardly need 3 stacks of succubi to harass successfully. That’s a full on assault! Harassment should be much earlier than that.

    And sorry but I don’t enjoy playing with people who are rude. Besides as you said one game wouldn’t prove anything.

    #208912

    Epaminondas
    Member

    you really dont know what you are talking about.

    This guy…

    First instead of providing counter arguments you just choose to insult me.

    Indeed. I understand that sometimes people get angry and end up shouting and go ad hominem; it’s human, and I am at times regrettably guilty, too.

    But this imbecile does it literally on every other post he spews out.

    Just repulsive.

    And sorry but I don’t enjoy playing with people who are rude.

    I don’t enjoy reading them either. Is this guy trying to persuade people or does he just like to hear himself shout? If the former, then he’s the biggest moron on the board by country mile.

    #208916

    Gloweye
    Member

    What about turn undead for succubus? Its useless vs necro now, because curse and seduce doesnt works on undead… turn undead could solve this a bit.

    Don’t really like this, because once you got Succubi, your main anti-necro weapon – Stalker – is pretty close already.

    I can’t remember the name of it exactly, but that could be retooled to affect Ghouls.

    I’d rather make it affect support than ghouls ; more thematicaly fitting.

    Actually like this idea…Dirty Half Dozen is pretty useless in most cases currently.

    As just an idea I didn’t think to much about yet – how about allowing Sabotage to inflict minor damage to undead? There’s a similarity between machines and undead as in that neither lives and both are moved by outside manners – crew in one case, some magic in the other. Give Sabotage like 10 Phys 5 Fire damage against undead, and some Scoundrels might be all you need vs early Necro’s and Banshees.

    Could be a bit to strong even with those reduced numbers though.

    #208920

    madmac
    Member

    I kinda like Turn Undead on Bards, TBH. It’s interesting and favors a slightly less used unit instead of just being a straight damage buff.

    Making Undead Slayer a straight empire upgrade would be too much, but making it a hero stack ability like Dirty Dozen is more than fair.

    #208927

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    @epaminondas

    I get kind of tired of the insults on this forum. Since I’ve come back it seems that every topic I get into someone eventually starts with the insults. Ah well 🙂

    On topic:

    Undead slayer as a part of dirty half dozen sounds like a very nice option to me. I have no problem with this.

    Bards and turn undead still seems an overly powerful choice. Look at it from the necro stand point. What exactly is a necro supposed to do to fight teams backed with turn undead bards? Due to the spirit weakness of necro units each bard will have a very good chance of making the undead useless for 2 turns. Bards already counter the inflict despair mechanics. What would an undead player do against massed bards? Or worse yet elven bards? They are a cheap early unit that can wander around charming independents on their way to attack the necro. Evangelists are death to necro units for this very reason but they are an expensive T3.

    Maybe I’m wrong but it seems awfully strong to me. If they got it at say silver or gold it might be okay. The problem (for me anyway) is with massing. A few units with turn undead would be okay.

    #208929

    So anyway, if the problem is specifically orc and goblin rogues, then a solution should be focused there, rather than on the rest of the rogue lineup.

    You could make rot impact incorporeal units, or give the goblin/orc assassin a special anti undead ability (like holy champion, but acidic), or you could make weaken have more impact vs. The undead (like rust strike vs. Machines).

    You could also give turn undead to the orc priest. It already has black bolts, so it fits the dabbler with the undead role.

    I do like the thematic idea of the dead being charmed by bards (Orpheus and all), but I have some concerns with draconian rogues.

    #208932

    ArcaneSeraph
    Member

    You could also give turn undead to the orc priest. It already has black bolts, so it fits the dabbler with the undead role.

    It makes sense to give something to the blight doctor as well. He deals with a lot of death and corruption so he could also have turn undead or something alternate. Like maybe his weaken works especially well against undead – giving them -100% blight resistance instead of just 60. Or maybe it slows them down? -12MP?

    #208934

    Sabotage alt fire seems best. Like 4/3 damage per blast, or something. Dirt half dozen with undead slayer is probably the simplest buff, although just 1 more physical attack won’t be much for incorporeal units.

    #208946

    Bouh
    Member

    And to answer your question, why rogues cant use their mobility to outplay necro… because necro has t2 (banshee) and t4 (reaper) in the air. Dread has NOTHING except scouts in the air. and thats the point.

    At this time though rogue can plunder necromancer economy and shadow stalkers are basicaly immune to undeads.

    For what it’s worth, I like the idea of support slayer on dirty half dozen, and I like the idea of turn undead on the orc shaman ; this regardless of balance because the balance is fine I think.

    Because the incorporeal mass is improbable first, and second because it is easy to counter with another race you can find on the map or a specialization.

    #208954

    AbednegoJC
    Member

    So anyway, if the problem is specifically orc and goblin rogues, then a solution should be focused there, rather than on the rest of the rogue lineup.

    You could make rot impact incorporeal units, or give the goblin/orc assassin a special anti undead ability (like holy champion, but acidic), or you could make weaken have more impact vs. The undead (like rust strike vs. Machines).

    You could also give turn undead to the orc priest. It already has black bolts, so it fits the dabbler with the undead role.

    I do like the thematic idea of the dead being charmed by bards (Orpheus and all), but I have some concerns with draconian rogues.


    This.

    +1

    #209004

    Ericridge
    Member

    I am aware that AI can be stupid.

    But it seems like you guys missed the point of my post completely.

    Necromancer have very weak economy, which is crucial weakness that Rogue can exploit to carry for the victory over necromancer!

    And that means, Necromancers have Terrible gold per turn, mana per turn, production, population.

    #209018

    Zaskow
    Member

    Necromancer have very weak economy, which is crucial weakness that Rogue can exploit to carry for the victory over necromancer!

    And that means, Necromancers have Terrible gold per turn, mana per turn, production, population.

    Necro has normal economics. Stop to repeat this silliness. In MP human player can have enough cashflow as Necro. Macrodevelopment decides everything. If AI handles with Necro terrible it doesn’t mean anything.

    #209042

    CrazyElf
    Member

    Let’s see if this can make it to 24 pages as well.

    We’re heading in that direction for sure.

    That being said, I’m not sure much (if anything) needs to change here. As is, it’s not too lopsided.

    The Necromancer does have some advantages, but so does the Rogue.

    #209055

    Ericridge
    Member

    Necromancer have very weak economy, which is crucial weakness that Rogue can exploit to carry for the victory over necromancer!

    And that means, Necromancers have Terrible gold per turn, mana per turn, production, population.

    Necro has normal economics. Stop to repeat this silliness. In MP human player can have enough cashflow as Necro. Macrodevelopment decides everything. If AI handles with Necro terrible it doesn’t mean anything.

    Nope, there’s a huge difference between Undead cities and Living cities.

    #209121

    Zaskow
    Member

    Nope, there’s a huge difference between Undead cities and Living cities.

    There are some differences, but Necro doesn’t suffer from them much. He can settle everywhere, use gold for forcing productions without morale penalties. Also Necro town never revolts, so you have additional time to disjunct any harmful spell and town works effective as always.

    #210243

    NuMetal
    Member

    Stalker (and lesser). Yea, this is force comparable with necro forces, but still, compared to banshee.. banshee have physical and frost rezist but does frost + spirit. Stalker has physical + frost dmg but now spirit rezist. Also bansheee is t2 and stalker missing backstab. This makes this fight really close but banshee is much lower tech than stalker.

    Banshee is summoned and Stalker produced. Really the Stalker is one of the best units against undead there is.
    Once you get Shadowstalkers the Necroplayer will cry.
    It was so bad that the devs actually changed Invoke Death to be able to target Incorporreal units exactly because Stalkers were beating up Necromancers so hard.

    I think that good job would be if researching cruel backstab made backstabbing work on undeads for rogue. This would prevent backstabbing other classes when they get backstab unit on necro… and it would buffed rogue vs undeads.

    I’m very much in favor of this or some version of it.
    I never understood why Backstab shouldn’t work against the undead…

    And to answer your question, why rogues cant use their mobility to outplay necro… because necro has t2 (banshee) and t4 (reaper) in the air. Dread has NOTHING except scouts in the air. and thats the point.

    weeeell, he does have Stalkers… which kicks the ass of the undead… and which is produced and not summoned…

    You could also give turn undead to the orc priest. It already has black bolts, so it fits the dabbler with the undead role.

    That would be an amazing addition!
    Not just for this matchup but in general this seems liek a great idea! +1

    lso Necro town never revolts, so you have additional time to disjunct any harmful spell and town works effective as always.

    Not as effective as always. Much less effective.
    The advantage to be almost not at all affected by morale stuff also includes the disadvantages that you can’t improve your morale in any way if you do somehow get bad morale.
    And Incite Revolt is just harsh against them!
    Permanent -600 morale is a real killer…

    #210255

    Zaskow
    Member

    Once you get Shadowstalkers the Necroplayer will cry.

    Before Rogue begins mass production of stalker Necro will have a few stacks of banshees only. 2 Banshees = guaranteed death for 1 Stalker. I doubt that you can overspam Necro banshee summoning by producing Stalkers.

    It was so bad that the devs actually changed Invoke Death to be able to target Incorporreal units exactly because Stalkers were beating up Necromancers so hard.

    This was changed, because such Stalker’s immunity to Invoke death leads to ridiculous situations where Reaper was unable to kill Stalker in 1 vs. 1 combat.

    weeeell, he does have Stalkers… which kicks the ass of the undead… and which is produced and not summoned…

    Necro will get Banshee earlier. Banshees is good countermeasure against stalkers.

    That would be an amazing addition!
    Not just for this matchup but in general this seems liek a great idea! +1

    Turn undead uses spirit channel to function. Orcs themselves doesn’t work with spirit.

    Not as effective as always. Much less effective.

    Wrong. Necro city just gets -600 to population, not to morale. In case of city or metropolis you have enough time. And town works as always.

    #210497

    Fenraellis
    Member

    It was so bad that the devs actually changed Invoke Death to be able to target Incorporreal units exactly because Stalkers were beating up Necromancers so hard.

    While I don’t have much to say about the Invoke Death, I would actually point out that Reapers having their damage channel of Physical changed to Spirit was much more significant for their viability of defeating Shadow Stalkers in most cases.

    I never understood why Backstab shouldn’t work against the undead…

    Two things:
    1) D&D: Precision damage(Backstabs and the like) does not work against Undead. An influencing factor, actually.
    2) Conceptually, Assassins and other Backstab-using units train in striking the vital points of living targets(I forget, but doesn’t Backstab also not work against certain other non-living units like Machines and possibly Elementals?), and Undead, well, don’t have vital organs to go all stabbity on.

    …I think it’s mostly reason #1, though.

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