Rogues questions

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This topic contains 50 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by  Gloweye 6 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #128945

    thabob79
    Member

    I’dd like to have your opinions on some questions i have about rogues.

    1) From my own experiences, i found that bard are good but, because of explorer (and the fact they are supports), i rarely use them in my ‘assaults team’. I use them more for local/defensive team (wall defender and independents slayers). Charm and +200 moral is great but i cant stand 28 mp with no concealment/terrain bonus. Am I missing something?

    2) Which specialization do you like for rogue (so far, I’ve found explorer to be… awesome. I yet have to test partisan, guerrilla tactic seem interesting for assassins but taking a specialization for 1 combo… not sure. I am a little disappointed about partisan. I expected better stuff. What do you think?

    3) About heroes while playing rogues. I’m really happy when i get a warlord or another rogue (they become my lord ‘bodyguard’ or good stack leaders). Archdruids makes good stack leader. Dreadnought are so-so (i sometime kill em only to give my lord their gun). Sorcerer make a good addition to the lord stack (if he dont have a bodyguard) as the ‘caster’. And i kinda hate theocrat (hero and possibly class too). Any good synergy I am missing?

    4) About spell casting. I am kinda saddened that casting low cost spells (usually buffs) cost my lord/hero the entire turn. I do think low cost buff (maybe 5+2 per casting skill rank) should only cost 1 action. As rogue (and warlord), I rarely cast because i don’t want to waste a turn to give a small buff to my units (especially the lion courage and last stand from WL).

    5) On the other hand, rogues spells are pretty good when your lord isnt present. (you don’t lose damages) I particularly enjoy quick dash, panic attack and cunning escape (which i wonder if it work well with guerrilla). Sadism seem pretty efficient too. What do you think?

    Thanks for your knowledge!

    #128946

    Marcus
    Member

    *casts “summon Garresh” spell*

    #128948

    Gloweye
    Member

    Also depends some one your race choice what fits best.

    1) Bard are amazing if you wait for them. But I must admit I don’t have that much experience with them.

    3)Personally, I really like Theocrats, because they help my armies heal, and become great party leaders(Damage type+Holy champion+fast healing+divine justicars…). Same goes for Arch druid. I agree with you on dreads, and I like Warlords/Rogues as well, since they make good melee heroes.

    Maybe I like the heal so much because I like playing elves, and healing is their big weakness. This might be a lot less important when you’re Draconian or Goblin.

    4)I must say I rarely use spells in the real early game, and if I do, its usually a rain of poison blades to finish off a unit that I otherwise can’t kill the same round. Dont underestimate spells like blind/panic attack though. blind almost completely renders a ranged unit/hero useless, and panic attack is a marvel at defense, since you can make an attacking unit/hero flee combat.

    5)Rogue indeed has decent strength.

    And now, indeed wait for Garresh for better advice..

    #128949

    Harleyquin14
    Member

    1) Morale is good, but bards are probably kept around for the charm ability. If it works, you can potentially get a free hero without having to wait around for one. Otherwise bards really do play the part of support troops since the light crossbow they wield isn’t very strong.

    2) Garresh probably argues partisan gives too much overlap with the rogue class. Rogues don’t get strong summons with their class spells so a mastery is useful for making use of the inevitable mana surplus. The late-game spells like brigands, shadow thieves and incite revolt are best played when there’s a solid town base to fling the spells around but some military muscle is required to tide players over.

    3) I don’t really have a preference for captains for rogue armies, all of the hero classes are useful in their own way.

    4) Don’t look down on those buffs. Moving target and shadow form are excellent for keeping units alive against armies heavily geared towards physical damage.

    5) With the new morale changes, Sadism is scary. If it’s allowed to work its magic, your units will be dealing critical damage with alarming regularity. Quick dash is the rogue heal spell while panic attack makes light of units surrounded by your own when it succeeds.

    #128953

    Epaminondas
    Member

    And i kinda hate theocrat (hero and possibly class too). Any good synergy I am missing?

    Theocrat heroes are by far the best heroes.

    #128961

    Prodigal Sun
    Member

    1. I prefer waiting for Succubi than produce many Bards. They just seem to fit too few strategies I am involved with, even if one for morale here and there is useful.

    2. I really like the Partizan specialization a lot. Invis scouts (!!) is awesome and add to that a passive boost to AI city relation – which Rogue already has a skill for, and it seems to stack. When I manage to get Courtesan Ambassadors early it usually means a lot of questing and very quick expansion. Plus the T3 units in inns get a lot cheaper.

    3. The only heroes I wish not have is Warlord, usually. Or, if I get it, I try a Scoundrel strat – using the hero as a second/ third stack priority. I like using a Dread hero for my main stack if I face Sorcerer. I find the Rogue hero a bit lacking in terms of providing survivability for a stack, and as a leader in fight you have to either choose to be a caster or damage dealer.

    4. I love quick dash so I spam it as much as I can. You can do so so many things with it.

    5. I haven’t tried Sadism so much myself but have seen it effective in action.

    #128969

    Garresh
    Member

    Okay you guys can relax. I’m here. Lets see..

    Mastery wise, the recent changes have opened a lot of doors for us. I still consider Explorer to be “mandatory” for the reasons you’ve said, but its worth noting that some very skilled players actually skip it on rogue. There’s not many of them, but they’re good enough that I respect their decision. There are basically 2 styles of rogue. The one style emphasizes quick decision strikes, and is the “old school” rogue which spans assassins in conjunction with explorer. For this I strongly advocate destruction adept as well, because of scorched earth and hasty plunder. Good masteries for this build include destruction mastery, wild adept, creation adept(healing your troops since they’re on prolonged missions), and water adept(freeze rivers and cross in one turn). With the recent changes this transitions nicely into lategame as well with shadow stalkers and incite revolt shenanigans.

    However, it is actually quite possible to play a less deceptive rogue, with a focus on combat trickery. In this vein, explorer usually takes back seat to Wild adept at the very least, with Wild Mastery as a strong option as well. Death adept is still nice because of killer instinct + bards, but if course if you’re going for combat you should choose masteries somewhat tied to your race as well. Either way, the idea is to make a strong backbone of racial units, while using a mix of swap location assassin strikes, degenerate charms, charm unstable transformations, and high reliability ubercrits to overwhelm the enemy and control the tempo of the fight. Bards look weak on paper, but you’ve never seen a bard leading a stack of flamers causing them to crit for 25 damage AoE attacks.

    Even more annoying, bards can be built into stacks of 6 and sent creeping to build armies of whatever you happen to find lying around. The funniest option is bardrushing a giant dwelling to get t4 units on turn 20. Don’t underestimate bards.

    Back to Masteries, I’ve covered explorer and death adept, but death mastery is insanely good for a lategame rogue, for one reason. If you are outnumbered, you can take the enemy throne with a stalker or assassin team, and then promptly disintegrate his leader for an instakill. Wild magic is good at all levels. At the low levels, it offers battlefield control and formation breakers. At the high levels, it offers the ability to completely screw up all formations, pretty much guaranteeing free backstabs all day long. Unstable transformation is funny when used with mind control, as once it goes off the unit loses all status effects and cannot be taken back by dispel. And as much as rogues are mana greedy, I have to admit, the wild magic summons have grown on me. I recently had a game where I had them moving behind some lesser stalkers in enemy territory. The stalkers would find easy cities, and screen for the heavy hitting elementals to creep up, and take the city in one turn. Then I’d scorched early it and hasty plunder. I wound up taking every city the enemy has this way, and when he chased after my main stack that was creeping around, his warlord cavalry deserted due to cumulative happiness penalties and volcanic terrain. I then promptly bought a stack of Black Knights for 400 gold and took his throne with minimal casualties. Then Whiteknighted backstabbed me and I spent the rest of the night eating ice cream and watching romcoms. 😉

    If all else fails, Fire Mastery is really good on rogues, because succubi have innate fire resistance. Just tech up a bunch and send raiding succubi into enemy territory. When outnumbered, they hellfire. When they catch small groups alone, they seduce them. All while being extremely fast and taking cities. Succubi are, like bards, frequently underestimated. But they’re extremely strong so don’t do that.

    For heroes, Druids and Theocrats are the strongest options for a rogue, as they allow fast leveling to pull a Stealth Commander early(level 5 rogue perk gives concealment to stack) or to rush lesser shadow stalkers. Theocrats also have good debuffs to add to the assortment. Dreads are probably the least attractive choice, but I usually build them as tanky bruisers and just have them go in as bait. Sorcs are good pretty much exclusively for star blades, as sprinting star blade scoundrels are really strong on a flank, as are assassins. Warlords are good because taunt spam + berserk spam is a nightmare for enemy tactics. More rogues are always nice.

    Oh, and one last thing on specializations since I’m on my phone and not going to bother proofreading this. Partisan isn’t great on a rogue, but it can give you concealed crows, which is nice. It also is a decent choice on a map with neutral cities, as it stacks with courtesan ambassadors. Oddly, guerilla is probably the least attractive thng in that mastery, as you shouldn’t need to retreat with assassins or scoundrels anyways. As such, partisan tends to lean more towards bardspam since all the gold you save not building units can be spent at inns recruiting more uglies for your “everything and a kitchen sink” army.

    #128978

    Garresh
    Member

    Oh and one more thing. Since the dispel changes, rogue spells in general are quite good. Our combat spells are all pretty nuanced and take a little finesse, but they’re pretty much awesome across the board. And Sadism is ridiculously good. Its not for every fight, but its good in fights where you’ve both got 3 stacks(which you should avoid if you’re going for strike teams, but helps a lot in an army focused strategy). Its also great if you have a stack of shadow stalkers. Cast that as they engage a moderately defended town, and then quick dash the rest if the way to overwhelm the defenders. So yeah Sadism is situationally amazing, which means its a good spell since 90% of what rogues have is situational as hell but amazing when used properly.

    #129008

    thabob79
    Member

    Thank you very much to all

    #129029

    decoy
    Member

    To add to Garresh long post the 3 prime choices for rogue I would say are Goblins, Elves and Humans.

    Goblin and Rogue is a really good fit right now in my opinion. Goblin Scoundrels are not to be under estimated with their +4 blight xbow. The Goblin bard also gets the +4 blight too.

    Elves and Rogue in my opinion is for the longbow on the bards. While not as good as mounted archers you do have mind control immunity and charm. This is the race I like to play as a Rogue currently and it works well enough.

    Humans and Rogue = Assassins. A waterwalking unit with water concealment is not something you want to think about. Assassin already have a lot of concealment options but the human Assassin is probably the best deep strike unit. The fact that almost any game will always have water or rivers(assassin roads) you better keep some true sight around your kingdom isn’t going to last long.

    oh and yes I am one of those players that dropped explorer. The reason being I like to run destruction adapt, fire adapt and wild adapt currently. Wild adapt is just really too good to pass. destruction adapt is good with rogue and the fact is the new disjunction method helps with scorch earth tactics. Fire adapt is the one which you will probably switch out if you want to go explorer or something else but I still like it because fireball fixes anything that poison daggers isn’t good at killing. Also the rest of fire adapt is all round good.

    #129048

    Garresh
    Member

    And to offer a counterpoint, I agree with him on most counts. However, human rogue is still somewhat retro in that it tends to heavily lean on an assassin rush strategy. Its a bit overbearing for my tastes. Elves are great, but I think the best way to run them is to mix bards with archers because elven bards are cost prohibitive for massing. Goblins are fantastic now. They’re a great choice. However, Draconians are imho still the best race for a rogue all around. They get bonus mana which helps, have good archers for combining with bards, and fast healing on assassins. Add in wonderful infantry to combine and you can run most anything with dracs, and on top of that their t3 with cruel backstab is awesome. Ultimately, run whatever suits you. All races are viable but different atm, so it really is a matter of personal choice.

    #129052

    Marcus
    Member

    One of the tactics I used playing Goblin Rogue actually focused only on scoundrels and corrupted killers.

    First thing as I started I tried to get 7-8 scoundrels (usually not a problem since they cost only 40g and 9m and you can build them 1 per turn; I didn’t even needed Builders Hall!) and then got Corrupted Killers straight away.

    With 2 stacks mixed of 3-4 scoundrels + 1 hero + 1 beetle (or other t3 from inn)/2 Warg Riders, I cleared nearby weak sites to level those scoundrels to lesser shadow stalkers. I think I managed to get 6 of them by turn 15. And then in turn I leveled lesser shadow stalkers to their full version around 25th turn.

    Meanwhile concentrating my research on those neat Rogue’s city debuffs I started to terrorize AI, with combination of shadow stalkers and rogue spells.

    It felt great when by the turn 40 Gamblag surrendered, especially when knowing that I didn’t went past Scoundrels in class units research tree. On turn 49 I surrounded Quoshka capital with sudden attack and sent her to void forever.

    Didn’t continued after that since the game lost its challenge (I had far superior number of cities and troops).

    #129063

    Garresh
    Member

    Lol man I dunno how you people pull off that many lesser stalkers that early. Abed does the same thing. I can never seem to get that many, but it doesn’t change the fact that Corrupted Killers is really good, especially for goblins. Even if you only get 1 lesser stalker, it becomes a flying triple-concealed scout, which is capable of taking out small garrisons as long as you have Quick Dash support. It also works well as part of a lesser elemental strike team, as it can go ahead further and make sure no scouts see the main force moving in. I personally think that the autocombat AI buff was the biggest buff rogues could have received in earlygame, and corrupted killers is amazing now. Such a neat style.

    #129091

    Gloweye
    Member

    Elves and Rogue in my opinion is for the longbow on the bards. While not as good as mounted archers you do have mind control immunity an

    Bards have no mind control immunity, and personally, I’ve found them a bit expensive.

    I just finished a nice game (VS AI) with a scoundrel heavy start, combining with Lesser Elementals. I got lucky with some research boosts for my casting points for the elementals, and once I got some armies rolling with generally the likes of 3 scoundrels/2 elementals+hero, I started clearing with them, and the scoundrel evolutions are really amazing. I had a Champion 2 Shadow Stalker before I even bothered to research Shadow Stalker. I got kinda stuck at Succubi because I found a lot of Forbidden Sanctums…

    Succubi with resurgence are awesome. Once you can get them, that city should be pumping out succubi non-stop, since its probably the best buy you’re ever gonna get as a rogue.

    #129106

    decoy
    Member

    yeah my bad they don’t get mind control immunity instead they get true sight from being supports.

    #129155

    alf978
    Member

    I’m not much of a Rogue player, but I thought i comment on the original posts’ reference to the WL spells Last Stand and Lion’s Courage.

    Personally, I’ve always thought those spells have great synergy with some of the Rouge’s units and tactics. When I play with my brother, nothing scares me quite as much as a lion’s courage and/or last stand on an assassin. Especially when I play Humans, and finally start to field Knights or have a Hero present. Armor piercing, polearm/overwhelm, plus extra damage AND backstab is quite intimidating..

    Last stand on succubi is also nothing to sneeze at, especially with the Defender trait added and all for a measly 7 cp..

    Granted they are situational, but if you recognize the potential it can yield great dividends, particularly if you’re stuck brawling or need to pack an extra punch for taking down a HVT.

    Lastly, I find those spells are also great to allow me to clear Dungeons, Wizard Towers, and Ziggurats. Lion’s courage is great for negating Fearsome, and Polearm for manticors and dragons is kinda self explanatory.

    Anyway, just my 2 cents, fwiw…..

    #129156

    thabob79
    Member

    The point is not that those spells aren’t great, but losing a hero action to cast ’em make me a sad ninja err panda. I usually cast only if my hero can’t reach/is to weak to fight.

    #129157

    alf978
    Member

    ahh, i got you.

    I guess i come from a bit of different school of thought. 🙂
    I like getting WL heroes, even when I play as Warlord, just because I’d like to cast those spells so frequently, that I feel i benefit from 7 cp vs. the 14…

    And most often the 1st round I reserve for spell casting with my Heroes anyway, since most opponents are in guard mode…

    #129159

    thabob79
    Member

    ahh, i got you.

    I guess i come from a bit of different school of thought. :)<br>
    I like getting WL heroes, even when I play as Warlord, just because I’d like to cast those spells so frequently, that I feel i benefit from 7 cp vs. the 14…

    And most often the 1st round I reserve for spell casting with my Heroes anyway, since most opponents are in guard mode…

    yeah, first round is buff party time!
    as well as baiting time 😀

    #129160

    alf978
    Member

    I guess, I should say, that I rather use my heroes as amped up support units, rather than straight-up fighters. 🙂
    And I usually try to level them up to be their own stack leader.
    I’m almost never keep two heroes in one stack (besides very, very early game).

    Come to think of it, maybe I’m loosing out a bit that way.
    I’m gonna have to play around with my hero development a bit more I guess…

    #129190

    Garresh
    Member

    It depends Alf. All the hero classes have a major case of too many choices too little time. I like the idea of making my heroes into uberfighters in theory, but excessive nuking and being close to the front make this a high risk endeavor. I think in practice heroes are best as commanders or casters, unless the game is going ultra late in which case they can so that by decking themselves out in gear.

    #129199

    Well, like Garresh, I really like rogues. I play them in just about every game. Of course, I would say his thoughts take priority over mine (because he’s just awesome like that).

    1) Bards are great to have as a one off in most armies, unless you’re going for a mass bard style (again, also fun). Morale plays a huge part in a lot of battles, and there’s always the off chance that you will get to do something fun, like steal heroes (always amazing).

    2) For rushing rogues, explorer is very important. I also really like Creation Adept / Wild Adept (learn to love your buffs and debuffs).

    But I would like to champion something that Garresh didn’t mention: Earth Adept/Master. Rogues can use every spell in that spell list to good to great effect, and Earth Master gives rogues a much improved late game, since rogues tend to fall off towards the big late game, given how they have no Tier 4 unit (and I’m still not sold on how good Shadow Stalkers are in late game armies).

    I will summon Garresh to give his thoughts on Earth Adept/Mastery for rogues (please? 🙂 )

    3) Honestly, in terms of heroes for rogues, my current thoughts go something like this:
    You really want Archdruids / Theocrats (Both of these classes have solid spells, but the biggest thing is that they have a healing ability, and quick healing. Being able to clear often as early as possible is very important for a rogue).

    Then a warlord, and the other heroes fall somewhere inbetween the warlord, and the rogue (I generally never hire a rogue hero, because I want the other ones a lot more than I do the rogue, since I am one)

    4) Honestly, its a necessity. A lot of the other classes have more powerful spells than we do that are good in a lot of places, and the devs didn’t want this game to have the D&D problem (in that any fight between two mages came down to who went first, because that mage would blow all of their spells and kill the other one). The one spell per turn change (assuming you have enough casting points) benefits rogues tremendously.

    5) There are a lot of really good rogue spells, you just have to know when to use them.

    Although my personal favorites have to be Incite Revolt and Plague of Brigands, combined with Network of Scrying Eyes. The amount of punishment you can do for a one or two stack garrison of low tier units to any enemy city on the map is nuts.

    #129263

    thabob79
    Member

    Some other questions while we’re at it
    1) Is treasure raiding a good spell to cast? what exactly does it do?

    2) Is the AI affected by nightwish?

    3) Beside panic and stun are there other mean to break guard (guard is so backstab unfriendly)?

    #129279

    Harleyquin14
    Member

    1) More and better loot from ruins? Yes please.

    2) If the AI is affected by concealment, then it should also be affected by changes to map exploration.

    3) Charm and seduce when they work technically take a unit off guard and bring it under your control.

    #129280

    Gloweye
    Member

    1) Only increases gold rewards. will also increase gold if you “sell for gold”. Always a good cast if you can spare the mana, but one you can miss the the mana is to much for you.

    2)Although I have no proof, I think AI regards it like concealment – he knows, but doesn’t incorporate it in his planning. Though I must say I don’t really see the point of this spell anyway, but it might have uses in PvP. Lets just say noone is going to have trouble finding the city, only getting caught by ambushes.

    3) have a unit spend its retaliations, and guard mode is gone from the next turn. I know, not what you wanted, but guard mode is…a good move in a lot of cases.

    #129297

    Fenraellis
    Member

    RE: FallenMajesty

    Earth Elementals would give a Rogue a very solid tank unit when Blight and Shock damage are NOT an issue. Of course, there is Earthquake, but it’s a bit too expensive to research in the average game. I used to fancy the idea of Earth Mastery Arch Druid with a Wild Hunt + Earth Quake combo, but since I play mostly MP, it… just isn’t really feasible in most cases(to get either of those, really).
    Stone Skin of course gives them extra bruiser ability when they need it, and makes their Shadow Stalkers just plain silly survivable. The bonus resist, especially with the +Res rank and a +Res party leader hero, could even make them somewhat shrug off elemental damage. Although their own spell for +8Def, while temporary is good as well in the right situations. Stone Skin + Smoke Screen for +7Res, not counting ranks or hero bonuses, would pretty much make them take no damage from ranged elemental support attacks. Of course, that’s relying on dispellable and disjunctable effects but since neither of those are 100% success anymore, it could work.
    City Quake would give them yet another city harassment global spell, which may or may not be useful.
    The new version of Slow allows their units to attack a given target without concern for Retaliations, which can be quite ridiculous in the right hands. Rogue units do tend to have high damage as a tradeoff for lower defenses, after all. I can’t recall, but I don’t think it forces ‘Flanked’ status like Blind does, though.

    All in all, as you said, certainly not a bad Specialization set for a Rogue, although I mostly vacillate between Air Mastery and Destruction Mastery myself. With the occasional things like Creation/Destruction double-Adept. Explorer is what it is, as usual, but I tend to favor Assassins, with a sprinkle of Scoundrels, so that’s understandable.

    Honestly, if I did go Earth Mastery, I could easily see dropping Explorer for something else, since you would likely be rushing towards your Succubi and Shadow Stalkers as your primary strategy. Maybe Creation for Stone Skin + Bless(best if your enemy isn’t a Sorcerer, or maybe Theocrat, for easy access to Support-dispels). Wild Magic simply for the versatility, or Fire for Fire Ball and Domain of the Sun. I’ll try it for a few matches, see how I feel with Earth Mastery.

    One other random thing to comment on. Sadly, it’s not a thing anymore, but I used to love Arch Druid heroes for another reason. You could cast Savage Rage on Shadow Stalkers, since they were typed as ‘Monster’. Armor Piercing, Overwhelm, First Strike, bonus damage… ah, it was beautiful. +8 damage against something like a Firstborn or a Knight. Of course, now it’s +5, instead of +3, which would be +10 damage against the previous targets(!), for the flat damage boost, but Shadow Stalkers are no longer a valid target. Alas.

    #129299

    thabob79
    Member

    3) have a unit spend its retaliations, and guard mode is gone from the next turn. I know, not what you wanted, but guard mode is…a good move in a lot of cases.

    So if a unit is out of AP it stop being in guard as in it can be backstabbed?

    #129303

    Harleyquin14
    Member

    So if a unit is out of AP it stop being in guard as in it can be backstabbed?

    Yes, that’s how the system works. Be careful of tireless units.

    #129324

    Gloweye
    Member

    So if a unit is out of AP it stop being in guard as in it can be backstabbed?

    Yes, but not instantly, you have to wait for the next combat round. You have to “spend” a Action Point to put a unit in guard mode, so if they’re depleted, you’re out of guard mode. Of course, it isn’t optimal, but good to keep in mind. This is one of the ways to use Killing Momentum, as it refunds an action point you can use to go on guard mode. Quick Dash can also do it for you.

    Indeed, be careful of tireless. Most tireless you’re gonna see is on orc units(Shock Trooper, orc crusader/assassin), though a few others have it as well.

    #129328

    thabob79
    Member

    Ah so only stunning and panic can break guard on the same turn

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