Sea, Islands and Continents Balance

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Sea, Islands and Continents Balance

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This topic contains 208 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by  Hatmage 7 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #221097

    ExNihil
    Member

    Hi Guys,

    IMO sea travel mechanics and combat mechanics are still out of wheck, which means Islands and to some extant also Continent maps are IMBA.

    The main issue in my understanding is the huge advantage some classes have in terms of mobility on water, esp. Sorcerer and AD, which allows exempts them from embarking and fighting with the embarked malus. The upgrade to Ships is really problematic as a solution, as it necessitates the building of water restricted units, which still can’t really cope with Flyers due to the ability of the latter to short-cut over land, or simply move from sea to land. At the same time, in order to make Ships more “useful” the normal units’ embarkment was nerfed, making them very slow over water and really pushing the advantage to classes that can become mobile over sea. This introduces a second layer of IMBA between classes that can field substantial number of flyers in class and those that can’t, and makes the pick of races highly IMBA – simply put, taking an Orc, Goblin or Human as DN for example on an Island map is suicidal (and sometimes you really don’t know what map is used when opting for random map type, as in the current tourny).

    I have previously proposed that flying/floating units will begin to incur damage after 3 turns when flying/hoavering above water as a possible solution. I would also like to see the movement speed of embarked units increased and perhaps some in-class techs introduced to at least some of the classes that must use embarkment extensively (Ironclad WS is a late-game solution, that is hugely problematic in itself and doesn’t help DN in most circumstances to begin with). Alternatively some elements could be introduced into specs. to accelerate sea travel, and I have proposed some strategic spells in water/air sphere to make it so.

    I would like a discussion of this, so please go ahead and try to be civil.

    #221157

    NINJEW
    Member

    i actually really like building boats. in a fight they are straight up op, strategically they have crazy vision and move ridiculously fast. on an islands map, they’ll more than make back their cost through clearing. having a single stack swagfleet of galleons patrolling the waters is very very useful, you’ll snipe enemy armies and laugh maniacally the whole way through. i like that.

    #221160

    NINJEW
    Member

    also ironclads aren’t really better than galleons for fighting embarked units. certainly not worth the cost. what ironclads are very very good at, however, is killing galleons, not armies. so ironclads are just a tool for dread to destroy someone trying to fight him with boats – a territory that dread SHOULD come out the victor in. galleons are more than good enough for killing embarked units or flying armies trying to make their way across the water, so buffing ironclads to be better at that role really isn’t necessary: i’d still never use them, because galleons already do the job so well and are cheaper.

    #221194

    i actually really like building boats. in a fight they are straight up op, strategically they have crazy vision and move ridiculously fast. on an islands map, they’ll more than make back their cost through clearing. having a single stack swagfleet of galleons patrolling the waters is very very useful, you’ll snipe enemy armies and laugh maniacally the whole way through. i like that.

    And it is almost like the classes and races without easy access to fliers and floaters in any early fashion tend to be really good at boat building.

    Also, the benefit of a t-3 flyer on water maps is part of the reason that high elf dread is fairly highly ranked.

    #221202

    Zaskow
    Member

    Honestly, I think that naval warfare in AoW3 is crap.
    Someone suggested long ago, that seas need resource points (gold, knowledge, mana) like land and sea unit with fort analog building to force player’s expansion on seas.

    #221209

    Hatmage
    Member

    I think Ironclads should be boosted a little. Not so much that galleons are nonviable, but I think a non-cooldown small gun attack would be nice for them, and that it makes sense to exempt them from Dreadnought machine shock vulnerability – damper soil makes electrical earthing more effective, and salt water effectively acts as very damp soil (source: AS/NZS 3000:2007).

    #221210

    Ericridge
    Member

    also ironclads aren’t really better than galleons for fighting embarked units. certainly not worth the cost. what ironclads are very very good at, however, is killing galleons, not armies. so ironclads are just a tool for dread to destroy someone trying to fight him with boats – a territory that dread SHOULD come out the victor in. galleons are more than good enough for killing embarked units or flying armies trying to make their way across the water, so buffing ironclads to be better at that role really isn’t necessary: i’d still never use them, because galleons already do the job so well and are cheaper.

    What takes six galleons to do it, you can take three ironclads and win. And what takes eighteen frigates to win a fight, six ironclads can do it.

    And something tells me that you have never experienced global assault warlord trying to cram all their manticores across a body of water to reach at your island fortress where your throne city is. Galleons and frigates is basically floating coffin boxes trying to repel elite manticores.

    Ironclads can enter a fight like that and win with all of their ships still afloat to sail back for repairs with.

    Ironclads is already good at killing galleons xD

    http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/it-finally-happened-guys/

    Anyways.

    Racial Flyers:
    Gryphon Riders
    Draconian Flyer
    Halfling Eagle Riders

    Class Flyers:
    Rogue Succubus/shadow stalkers
    Theocrat Exalted/Shrines of smiting doom
    Warlord Manticores
    Necromancer Dread Reaper
    Random Archdruid/Sorcerer summons and units etc.

    Class Swimmers:
    Human Assassins, Warbreeds, hunters, scouts, etc.

    Only dreadnought lacks anything but that ain’t the end of the world for dreadnought can just concenetrate on protecting what it has and forcibly take the controls of waters gradually with ironclads which will permit the machines to embark and cross onto opposing lands safely. This means dreadnought gets to enjoy the defender’s advantage of having guaranteed access to master guild/ industrial park for keeping it’s machines repaired until it’s ready to deliver the d-day onto it’s enemies.

    And dreadnought can use frigates / galleons better than any other classes. For they will have access to industrial park when combined with master guild means very fast repairs. And that isn’t mentioning that their frigates/galleons will be cheaper to build too due to empire upgrades.

    Currently the sea travel balance is pretty damn good. It was bad when transports could have access to ballista/fire arrows/ and fire mortar /cannonballs while moving as fast as dedicated ships. After all those got removed, it brought dedicated ships back into reasonable amount of relevance.

    Flyers/floaters taking damage for being over the water is no good, the AIs will be losing units all the time to it. U could watch 30+ manticores flying to you only to see them all go poof because the AI spent so much time flying over the water. This is unneeded.

    And there being races that is disadvantaged in the sea travel, this is intended by design. And you stated the humans as one of those disadvantaged. I have to disagree with this for they get Mariner as one of their race traits. This is a huge advantage. This means human transports is better at fighting other opposing transports. And they travel faster than other transports. Only competition they have in this area is from Frostling’s Fast Embark trait.

    And then every single race have access to Frigates and Galleons including those disadvantaged in the ways of watery arts. And then Galleons only have trouble swatting elite manticores out the sky. If those classes/races need galleons and they are aware that there is a warlord around. They must start producing plenty of galleons so that they will have a numberical advantage when elite manticores shows up. Because elite manticores is pretty tough to kill for galleons like how galleons struggle against ironclads too.

    Dreadnought have another unique trick in their arsenal too. Their Flame Tanks can be turned into a navy if they need to. Once embarked, they don’t have to worry about hurting transport ironclads with their flame breaths. They’re immune. Which means anything that charges into flame tank’s range will be roasted without worrying about friendly fire. The catch is that they’re easier for galleons to sink than ironclads.

    If anything, sometimes RMG will go out of it’s way to block the excellent coastal spots by placing a city in them one hex off the coast. This happens ALOT. Usually encourages me to go on razing spree when this happens so I can get my needed harbors built.

    #221219

    ExNihil
    Member

    As usual I can’t comment on how well this is balanced in SP and/or in XL maps in games that stretch into very very late stuff.

    What I can say is this:

    The advantages of Sorcerer and AD is that all they need to be completely sea capable is to tech up their own units and play normally pretty much, with some exceptions for class units (apprentices need levelling, most animals aren’t sea worthy in themselves, etc.). Other classes have some swimming units or flying units in their lineup, but these are fewer in number and in effect usually dictate that for most of the game players using these classes have to use embarked units at sea.

    Ships require both research and resources to build, although in a sea battle they are excellent units, and can function very well as scouts, they are inherently limited – they do not regenerate, requiring either a DN hero, levelled Engineer (available only to 1 class) or a Master Guild Builder to heal at sea, or else must return to a harbor. You can build ships, and you can use them effectively – *sometimes* and on some *maps*, whereby you can use flying, floating and free movement / swimming-walking units *always*. Furthermore, you cannot actually take cities with Ships, and given the way the RMG generates maps, there are usually land masses within a maximum of two turns of flying/floating, which allows fliers to traverse the map quicker and out-manuever ships, depending on the situation.

    A player that dedicates resources to ship production is building less racial and class units and/or is developing his cities slower. To unlock Galleons signficant amount of research has to be invested, a research that could be used to unlock class units or other crucial techs, which by and by is the same price that has to be paid to make sea travel less excruciating.

    I have no issue with the way Ships are currently, or almost no issue (on this in the last bit). My issue is with Embarkment and the fact it was nerfed in order to make Ships more prevalent, by and by making Flying/Floating/Swimming/Free Movement units so much more powerful.

    My suggestion is to handicap flying/floating units over sea as well. First I think Flying/Floating units shouldn’t regenerate above water, or at least flyers shouldn’t. Second, I want them to lose health after x number of turns has passed.

    At the same time I want Embarked units to travel faster – as fast as ships. This could be done by removing the “Fire Ballista” and “Fire Cannon” abilities from embarked units.

    Finally I would like to see spells that accelerate sea travel and improve various aspects of it introduced into specializations – Explorer, Air and Water.

    As for ships – my only issue with them is the regen problem, which for most classes is very problematic as you need quite a bit of infrastructure in place to be able to use ships effectively. I think a good solution would be to introduce on some map structures the equivalent of a shrine of healing and/or sustain buffing that works on boat units specifically. Also, a Repair Boat trait could be introduced on some class, hero and/or racial units at some points, or perhaps a special Sea Builder unit could be created that is able to both build bridges (which is useful), perhaps some structures (if introduced) but especially have the repair boat ability, giving regen to boat units without a Master’s Guild.

    #221238

    NINJEW
    Member

    At the same time I want Embarked units to travel faster – as fast as ships.

    i hope you realize that this is ridiculously fast

    honestly i like the current system, i like how embarked units are at a big disadvantage vs units built for mobility/water specialized when it comes to water. i think a bigger problem is how this affects different classes disproportionately, not the actual mechanics themselves

    #221242

    Ericridge
    Member

    I do agree with flyers/floaters shouldn’t regenerate their hp while above the water.

    And about land masses being close to each other, I have a feeling this problem will never be fixed until there’s a map size bigger than XL that shows up. And the power of ships will never be fully realized until there’s actual oceans between continents. Even flyers will have second thoughts about flying across the water if it means they will be intercepted by ships because the body of water is big enough to force them to fly for 3-10 turns before they reach a landmass.

    “A player that dedicates resources to ship production is building less racial and class units and/or is developing his cities slower. To unlock Galleons signficant amount of research has to be invested, a research that could be used to unlock class units or other crucial techs, which by and by is the same price that has to be paid to make sea travel less excruciating.”

    Well if water commands a significant presence enough to be not ignorable then having frigates and galleons present in the water is important. For example, I’ve had starts in RMG where I started on a island in a Continents RMG. Then having a navy is important. For how do you guarantee the safety of your transports otherwise?

    And if you’re on a land map and there’s just random rivers running through the map then basic seafaring is more than enough generally. You don’t even need galleons. Unless you feel like having one to cruise around for fun.

    And I got a pretty big question for you.. have you even embarked units in aow3? When was the last time you did it? Because fire cannon and ballistas/ mortars was removed from transports like after a month or more during vanilla aow3.

    And very recently, transport’s speed was nerfed to make them more slower than frigates/galleons/ironclads. This change is to encourage people to develop a navy to catch the transports and sink them before they can land onto your landmass. And it works very well.

    They used to be as fast as warships which made hunting them down too difficult and made flyers/floaters more valuable and warships less valuable.

    Sea travel is already very very fast in aow3. You can travel the entire world in like ten turns or more. To travel the entire world on civ 5 in a ship on huge map will take about uhhh 15? turns if your ships is amazingly fast + unique promotions and setup of landmasses that doesn’t force you to travel north/south very often. Otherwise it would easily be 20-40 turns. 40 turns is rather extreme end in very rare cases. But will happen if you’re traveling the world with very ancient galleys xD

    As for regen problem, only answer to this is to acquire more port cities. The more you have of them the more quickly you can keep your fleets repaired. I do not use a hero/engineer/builder to repair my fleets. Too slow. Its quicker to have fleets in rotation. One on patrolling/fighting and second back in harbor for repairs. And more port cities means you can support more fleets because of more gpt.

    From what I have seen, on smaller maps, the ships is more of fire and forget weapon. They’re generally on one way trip until they get sunk. The bigger the map is, the more worthwhile it is to have port cities in good locations to support your navy.

    Dedicated port cities can have a hospital line set up + Master Guild and harbor. Then start building ships or merchandise. It would require reinforcements from other cities because it will only be able to produce militia unless you construct the military facilities there too.

    #221244

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I’m a bit at a loss about the discussion.
    If you KNOW, you play Island (or Continents and you’d like to play something that you see as disadvantaged on a map with a lot of water or playing a random map) – isn’t picking at least Water Adept a problem solver and a matter of course? Freeze Water negates the flyer advantage. It can also be used to temporarily block off enemy boats. Summon Baby Kraken has a lot of potential as well on such maps – being able to summon an evolving dedicated water unit on a map with potentially lots of water targets?
    No-brainer, actually, and so obvious it should be considered part of the Classes on such maps.
    Water offers a couple of handy things anyway, but on water maps it would seem invaluable.

    #221248

    Hatmage
    Member

    I do like navies, and would like flyer/floater nonregeneration over sea (and some flyers/floaters getting fishing to cancel it out), but mostly I’d like more to do at sea. We can’t very well build sea settlements, but I do wonder if some nautical visit sites that granted gold, research and mana to visiting empires could provide a similar incentive to fight for valuable territory on water.

    Picture driving your flotilla into bright, shining waters, and realising what you were seeing wasn’t the sun reflecting off the waves, but flakes of gold floating atop the sea, or fishing up glowing fish from the depths of the ocean and bringing them aboard to be fermented and reduced down to mana. It would require new art assets and likely have to be a mod rather than something in mainline, but I think it would add to the game.

    #221267

    ExNihil
    Member

    At the same time I want Embarked units to travel faster – as fast as ships.

    i hope you realize that this is ridiculously fast

    honestly i like the current system, i like how embarked units are at a big disadvantage vs units built for mobility/water specialized when it comes to water. i think a bigger problem is how this affects different classes disproportionately, not the actual mechanics themselves

    There are two issues here: First Embarked units are at a combat disadvantage through maluses, which is compensated to a varing degree by having a ship attack as well as their usual ones, but really it is not enough – -3 defense, -1 resistance -20% fire resistance and -1 vision (with basic seafaring, with advanced there is no vision malus) is fucking horrific. The other is a mobility malus – 21MP with basic seafaring and 27MP with advanced seafaring, requiring an additional 220RP. In both instances Flying/Floating/Swimming units have a distinct advantage – having their normal attacks and abilities as well as their normal tactical and strategic mobility (and for floating units, better than normal mobility).

    Limiting Flying/Floating units’ by not allowing them to regen health and causing them to incur damage after 3 turns above water (-6 HP per turn I’d say), will give embarked units and also, and significantly, Ships, a necessary advantage.

    Perhaps hoping for Embarked units being as fast as ships is too much, but 21/27MP is simply too harsh, and that is before we consider the Embark / Disembark impact on MP, which is also a huge hurdle – Flying/Floating/Swimming units have no issues here at all.

    Now, the problem of solving this through classes rather than through a manipulation of already existing mechanics is the need for new content. I OFC don’t object to this, but that is something I think is a bit unlikely ATM. If new content is going to be added, I would like it to be added to existing Specs. first and foremost.

    I think that what Water adept offers is really not significant enough to make a big difference – in MP, and I’d assume in normal SP games (that is, Avg. maps) to really change things. Freeze Water is excellent for small patches of water, rivers, isolated water tiles and so forth, it doesn’t really replace or boost sea travel, and if you actually use it to try and cross water there is a chance your units will drown, even if you have seafaring, because they won’t embark. Baby Krakens are a joke – I have never seen one being grown in MP, and although it is a fast sea scout if you do want to make it into a big kraken you have to grow it, and than again you have a t4 unit that is good only in the water. By this I don’t mean it’s not an immersive or fun unit, or that it isn’t powerful enough in it’s own role, but rather that it has absolutely no impact on the way most classes are handicapped with most of their units in water.

    What I’d like is spells that boost sea-travel, and spells that debuff opponents in sea fights and/or in their strategic movement in or above water. Freeze Water is good in the last bit to a degree OFC, but I’d like more options added in specs. and perhaps to some classes as well if possible.

    #221390

    Bob5
    Member

    I don’t think units should be damaged above water, the AI is too stupid to handle that. I’ve seen them losing armies to Glyphs just because they were spending many turns regrouping in enemy territory before trying to attack a city (by then their armies were so weakened that even a 5 to 2 stack advantage wasn’t enough to pose much of a threat).

    #221392

    Wallthing
    Member

    The current system seems like a decent low-development-cost solution to me. If you add any more complexity or realism I think you’d need to scrap the whole thing for it to be satisfying.

    I wonder if ships should have an ability to make limited repairs on themselves by not moving or fighting for a turn. Perhaps 20 or so hp once before they have to go back to a harbor for repairs. I suspect that would be too difficult to program to be worth it though.

    #221404

    Limiting Flying/Floating units’ by not allowing them to regen health and causing them to incur damage after 3 turns above water (-6 HP per turn I’d say), will give embarked units and also, and significantly, Ships, a necessary advantage.

    yep. You’d have to make the AI cheat for this, and players would see it a lot (since you want to scout out the sea for incoming attacks).

    A simple solution might be (if there is really a problem) to give boats the engineer auto repair If they are built in a city with the siege workshop.

    Otherwise, the merfolk dwelling is about the furthest you can go in water city development unless you made a special “water world” floating city type of thing for all races.

    #221425

    ExNihil
    Member

    I don’t think units should be damaged above water, the AI is too stupid to handle that. I’ve seen them losing armies to Glyphs just because they were spending many turns regrouping in enemy territory before trying to attack a city (by then their armies were so weakened that even a 5 to 2 stack advantage wasn’t enough to pose much of a threat).

    Well, that doesn’t exclude making flying/floating units non-regen above water, which is already something.

    As for the AI being unable to deal with this: Question is what it does with cadavers, which basically have the same kind of malus – larger amount of HP and no turn timer before damage begins.

    Glyphs of Warding deal 16 shock damage each turn, I am talking about a range of damage around -6HP a turn, could be slightly higher or lower, say -5 HP a turn.

    I believe that with this amount of negative HP per turn, after the 3rd turn has elapsed, the AI would still not be that dramatically handicapped, and there could be ways to ease this without very difficult programming I’d imagine. Example, Wisps, Cherubs and Crows would be programmed not to park above water for more than 3 turns, and to try and reach a land tile within this amount of time on which to end their turn.

    I do think that Necro units should not suffer the HP negative, since they are not living units, and that Drones should also not be affected – these units anyhow do not regenerate, and there is conceptual justification for making this difference. OFC balance wise it might be required to do this, but this would only be certain after quite a bit of testings.

    In general I’d say the Glyphs of Warding issue should be addressed as well, and I don’t really see a reason why it couldn’t, but that is for another thread Bob5, which you might want to make – I don’t play SP myself.

    #221432

    quo
    Member

    Somewhat off topic. I think Rogues should have a Pirate ship that receives Water Concealment.

    #221434

    Ultimatum
    Member

    a flying pirate ship!It could be like the Air galley from Age of wonders!(and it can be horribly unbalanced too!)

    #221438

    ExNihil
    Member

    Indeed of topic to a degree, but it sounds like an appropriate class option TBH – perhaps instead of Galleon they could unlock a Corsair Man-of-War or something suchlike, maybe with an option of “boarding” enemy ships which works like a convert ability of some sorts 🙂

    #221443

    Ericridge
    Member

    There are two issues here: First Embarked units are at a combat disadvantage through maluses, which is compensated to a varing degree by having a ship attack as well as their usual ones, but really it is not enough – -3 defense, -1 resistance -20% fire resistance and -1 vision (with basic seafaring, with advanced there is no vision malus) is fucking horrific. The other is a mobility malus – 21MP with basic seafaring and 27MP with advanced seafaring, requiring an additional 220RP. In both instances Flying/Floating/Swimming units have a distinct advantage – having their normal attacks and abilities as well as their normal tactical and strategic mobility (and for floating units, better than normal mobility).

    That is exactly the intent behind the malus. It is done on purpose to make people consider producing frigates and galleons to protect the land from invasion by catching and sinking the transports.

    Swimming units should be left alone because most of the swimming units cannot go onto land. Mermaids, etc. Mermaids can attempt to prey onto the transports unless those transports is carrying insane champions on them xD

    Flyers/Floaters, well, meh, i don’t worry too much about them. If you need to punch through a wall of flyers/floaters guarding the waters, bringing galleons will do the job nicely. Unless they’re elite manticores. Otherwise stay on the land and wait until you have sufficient strength. Or manipulate diplomacy to force those flyers/floaters to go somewhere else due to new troubling developments.

    You don’t have to always go on the attack, and attack right now. This can be playing into your enemy’s hand. You can attack later, not now.

    One old tactic I use in mmos before. “Attack when I want to, not when my enemies want me to.” I follow that philosophy and it works nicely.

    #221515

    ExNihil
    Member

    Ericridge,

    As always we are talking about very different games. A floating Sorcerer is able to spread and clearbIsland map significantly faster than a sea going opponent, and he does not need to build ships to be effective. Same goes to players who can do flying stacks and so forth.

    Your assumption that by waiting everything will be resolved is erroneous, players develop very aggressively and if you get bottledup you lose.

    As for defense and attack, ships are manageable with ease when the opponent us actually thinking and manuevering carefully on most maps.

    #221521

    As for the AI being unable to deal with this: Question is what it does with cadavers, which basically have the same kind of malus – larger amount of HP and no turn timer before damage begins.

    It cheats when you are not looking. That was the only way to fix necro ai not playing well on the strategic map.

    I also don’t see it as bad that some race/class combinations are much better in some map sets. After all, Dwarves start to lose their shine when water is there, and the human mariner trait isn’t that helpful. Those races are among the most powerful in land maps, so what is the problem?

    Same for Dreadnought and Theocrat/warlord (although all have decent water options).

    #221522

    ExNihil
    Member

    Problem is that many many class-race combos get shafted.

    Humans fight better on water, but are otherwise fucked mobilitywise which is the main thing. Frostlings have the best sea abilities pretty much. HE, Halfling and Draconians are the only races with flying t3s and are thus very advantageous but this simply limits some classes.to t3. Spamming. Dwarves, Goblins and Tigrans are total crap.

    #221523

    quo
    Member

    There’s another issue with Continents maps, recently-ish introduced. Sometimes (often enough for me to notice) the map will load with a huge, long wall of those “rocky river” tiles Walking units can’t cross. I’ve seen these tiles cut all the way from one end of a Continent to the other. It’s a Dreadnought and Theocrat killer (more Dreadnought).

    Water and Swimming units can’t cross rocky rivers. Only floating and flying units can. That leaves the Theocrat with 3 flying racial units, Exalted, and Shrines, no Supports. For Dreads, only the flying racial units.

    I think that if these tiles stay in game, that there needs to be a way to knock them down, build bridges over them, something. I’ll post some photos if I load a game that has them (I switched back to Land maps once this issue cropped up).

    #221534

    NINJEW
    Member

    There are two issues here: First Embarked units are at a combat disadvantage through maluses, which is compensated to a varing degree by having a ship attack as well as their usual ones, but really it is not enough – -3 defense, -1 resistance -20% fire resistance and -1 vision (with basic seafaring, with advanced there is no vision malus) is fucking horrific. The other is a mobility malus – 21MP with basic seafaring and 27MP with advanced seafaring, requiring an additional 220RP. In both instances Flying/Floating/Swimming units have a distinct advantage – having their normal attacks and abilities as well as their normal tactical and strategic mobility (and for floating units, better than normal mobility).

    this sounds good to me. your dudes passing through the water aren’t as good as units specialized to fight in the water only. what is the problem????

    also embarked units don’t have a ship attack and haven’t for a very, very, very long time

    Perhaps hoping for Embarked units being as fast as ships is too much, but 21/27MP is simply too harsh, and that is before we consider the Embark / Disembark impact on MP, which is also a huge hurdle – Flying/Floating/Swimming units have no issues here at all.

    nope, sounds good to me. moving across water is a serious risk, since you can be easily sniped by water dedicated units, and makes having fliers/floaters/swimmers a big advantage. it’s a good gameplay dynamic.

    like i said, i really like the current system. i just wish there weren’t combos (i.e. human + any class or AD + any race) that are just straight up better than the other combos on water. the human water advantage and swimming class units is really cool on land maps, but once you shift to islands it becomes somewhat OP. it’d be nice if others had some more options: i’m ok with human and AD keeping a water advantage, but i’d like to see some changes being made to make it a bit less pronounced than it is currently.

    #221535

    NINJEW
    Member

    Humans fight better on water, but are otherwise fucked mobilitywise which is the main thing.

    this is true if you look only at racials, but humans get lots of class units that have swimming added, or water concealment where swimming was already there. humans have lots of water mobility.

    #221537

    Ericridge
    Member

    There’s another issue with Continents maps, recently-ish introduced. Sometimes (often enough for me to notice) the map will load with a huge, long wall of those “rocky river” tiles Walking units can’t cross. I’ve seen these tiles cut all the way from one end of a Continent to the other. It’s a Dreadnought and Theocrat killer (more Dreadnought).

    I’ve seen that in the map I just finished. It was funny. It forced me to expand north and south then eastward as a dreadnought. There was a huge undead nest in the middle of that rocky wall. But luckily enough it was a archon nest not boneyard so I just swept it whenever I could expand eastward with flame tanks. Bone Dragon nest would’ve been raiding me for 100+ turns.

    Ericridge,

    As always we are talking about very different games. A floating Sorcerer is able to spread and clearbIsland map significantly faster than a sea going opponent, and he does not need to build ships to be effective. Same goes to players who can do flying stacks and so forth.

    Your assumption that by waiting everything will be resolved is erroneous, players develop very aggressively and if you get bottledup you lose.

    As for defense and attack, ships are manageable with ease when the opponent us actually thinking and manuevering carefully on most maps.

    If you know your opponent is sorcerer then it makes sense to unlock tier 2 class units and at least one tier 3 class unit and then rush into galleon tech. The Galleons can shoot down flyers/floaters.

    Let’s take a look at RP for Sorcerer’s floating/flying units.

    Summon Fantastic Creature.
    200 RP.

    Summon Node Serpent.
    400 RP.

    Then lets take a look at advanced seafaring.
    Advanced Seafaring.
    220 RP.

    Basic Seafaring.
    60 RP.

    And finally, Sorcerer’s magical flyers/floaters is limited by CP.

    Galleons and Frigates only require Production and Gold.

    And I tell you, Frigates can murder watchers easily. I’ve shot down alot of those eyes in my frigates.

    Frigates cost 80 gold. 8 gpt.

    Galleons cost 120 gold. 16 gpt.

    What exactly is the problem here? The fact that people might have to spend 2-3 turns reasearching galleons early game? And another advantage is that if you unlock basic seafaring, advanced seafaring is always available to research immediately.

    I have unlocked galleons on small maps with no problems. You don’t have to unlock that class tier 4 unit.

    #221543

    ExNihil
    Member

    220 rp is not a lightweight tech, and the problem emerges well before fighting usually as a floating / swimming / flying army can clear and expand much faster.
    Also, not a single Sorcerer summon is floating, PW and Wisps also function well in water and a PW army over water will kick the shit out of embarked stacks while being faster.

    Floating units are fast over water, not as fast as ships but still fast, and flying units are flying – you can pump out ships, but these don’t help you expand, settle and conquer you enemy directly, they can’t move to land and can’t move in and out if the UG.also, due to the relative closeness of land masses on Island Maps floaters /voters can outmanuever ships many times and these become useless.

    How many taxes can floaters, flyers, embarked and ships move each turn? Hist many turns does it take a normal army to embark or disembark?

    #221544

    ExNihil
    Member

    this sounds good to me. your dudes passing through the water aren’t as good as units specialized to fight in the water only. what is the problem????

    My point was that the combat negative is already huge, the mobility negative on top is excessive. Note that ally suggestions have been in mobility.

    As for specializing in fighting in the water – this is true of krakens, how is this true of flyers / floaters?

    Fact is the game doesn’t give any Malus to these units in water, whereby Sea Creatures and boats simply fight normally.

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