Serious Suggestion: Make Death Bringer a SUMMON and Reaper a production unit!

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Home Forums Age of Wonders 3 Discussions Balance Suggestions Serious Suggestion: Make Death Bringer a SUMMON and Reaper a production unit!

This topic contains 15 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Ericridge 6 years, 9 months ago.

Viewing 16 posts - 1 through 16 (of 16 total)
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  • #228045

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Why do I suggest that?

    I’m playing Necro now since realease of EL, I’m playing Necro in a couple of PBEMs and SP, and Necro is indeed a new Class, neither producing nor summoning, but GHOULING.

    I mean, this should be a matter of course for everyone playing Necro seriously:

    There is no need wahtsoever to produce Death Bringer in high numbers. You may have only 3 the whole game – but they are virtually worth an army!

    Imagine DBs being summoned and Reapers produced. Reapers to produce INSTEAD of Death Bringers makes a lot of sense, because currently the PRODUCTION of Death Bringers effectively halts production.
    SUMMONING DBs would make them compete with Banshees, while GHOULED CREATURES would compete with Reapers.

    Imo, this makes alot more sense.

    Opinions?

    #228056

    NINJEW
    Member

    considering how big a role banshees play in the more problematic necro matchups, having another really important unit compete with banshees sounds like something that could cause issues

    #228073

    Fenraellis
    Member

    because currently the PRODUCTION of Death Bringers effectively halts production.

    You’re going to need to elaborate on this statement.

    #228081

    Ericridge
    Member

    I disagree.

    Deathbringers is important to be buildable.

    Dread reapers must stay as a summon.

    Your suggested change will weaken the class as whole for everyone else. And you shouldn’t balance changes 100% based on Single player where AI have problems trying to murder you in manual combat successfully.

    Instead. My recommendation is to do this change and upload it as a mod and see how popular your idea truly is.

    #228096

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    because currently the PRODUCTION of Death Bringers effectively halts production.

    You’re going to need to elaborate on this statement.

    Heroes with Ghoul Curse and Death Bringers bring in tons of units – so much so, that there is no need (and no free upkeep) for production. Dungeons are especially profitable here: you get units as rewards in addition to those ghouled.

    It’s a lot of effort to produce the Deathbringer (you need to build your T3 Necro building first) – and the purpose of the Deathbringer is to enlarge your army. It’s not THAT formidable a unit without the Ghoul Curse (and it’s a slow unit with 28 HP). So while it makes sense to have a couple, there are better units with a view on fighting strength (Bone Horrors are pretty awesome, for example).
    The Reapers on the other hand would be an addition for production, since they ARE fighter units and fast (against most opponents).

    Having a few Deathbringers and a few Heroes with Inflict Ghoul Curse, production is more or less limited to the odd Support (you need a certain amount of Healer units relative to your complete army strength). Keeping in mind that Death Bringers will get MCI now, so there WILL be a need to go that road and build a couple of them FAST, but after the initial wave of Death Bringers there isn’t much reason to churn them out. You COULD build whole stacks harrassing human enemy, but they lack in mobility for that.

    However, this is certainly nothing to press – in a couple of weeks these things can be modded and then we will see how that works out.

    #228097

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    I disagree.

    Deathbringers is important to be buildable.

    Dread reapers must stay as a summon.

    Your suggested change will weaken the class as whole for everyone else. And you shouldn’t balance changes 100% based on Single player where AI have problems trying to murder you in manual combat successfully.

    Instead. My recommendation is to do this change and upload it as a mod and see how popular your idea truly is.

    The mod thing notwithstanding, I miss reasons for your claims. The suggested change wouldn’t weaken the Class as a whole.

    #228099

    Ericridge
    Member

    The mod thing notwithstanding, I miss reasons for your claims. The suggested change wouldn’t weaken the Class as a whole.

    Deathbringer is excellent ghoul recruiters.

    By making deathbringer difficult to get, you have singlehandley murdered Necromancer’s unit zombie production.

    And to make Death bringer very few in numbers, you have made necromancers very vulnerable to decapitation tactics.

    To make Dread Reaper tier 3, it must be beaten very brutally with a nerfbat to the point where it doesn’t deserve the word “Dread Reaper”. And Necromancer loses an excellent unit for killing organic tier 4s.

    Then deathbringer now competes for attention with banshee and lost souls for valuable summoning turns. Dread Reaper becomes mass produce but…. it doesn’t feel very awesome and Dread reaper loses it’s unique feeling in addition to being weaker.

    Well supported tier 4 Dread Reaper can tank alot of manticores, this is one of very many things that Necromancer will lose!

    This thread is arguably the most worst suggestion I have seen in history of suggestions for Necromancer class.

    I know from personal experience on how terrible this change can be, Golems got deranked from tier 3 to tier 2. One of most worst things for dreadnought ever. It still feels so weird to me to see them at tier 2 being so puny and weak until they get to elite and spam defend all the time or die horribly.

    #228103

    Fenraellis
    Member

    To be fair to JJ, I’m pretty sure he wasn’t planning on changing the tier of the units.

    In this example, the Necromancer line up would become:
    Summon — Lost Soul
    Produce — Reanimator
    Summon — Banshee
    Produce — Bone Collector
    Summon — Death Bringer
    Produce — Dread Reaper

    While I still don’t particularly agree with the swap idea, there is precedent for the Reaper being a produced ‘magical’ unit in the same concept as the Shadow Stalker is via a summoning portal structure.

    #228119

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Right. Of course no tier swap.

    Look, I’m playing Necro as long as EL is out, and you definitely don’t have to SWARM the world with Death Bringers to Ghoul an Empire. So no Tier or Research cost change – just making DB a summon. This will make DBs INSTANTLY available after Research, for no additional building (keep in mind that DB needs all three Necro buildings, so doing it in more than one is quite costly). So the moment you research DB you will start Summoning THEM and stop summoning Banshees.

    Now think about the following: The more Death Bringers you build (or summon) the less need to BUILD stuff/anything else with the current setup, simply because your Ghouling heroes and Death Bringers “build” stuff for you. It may be a ragtag assortment, but they can bring you so many T3 and T4 units in 1 turn that you go from a solid gold plus into the red.
    In a current game, with just 2 Ghouling heroes and 3 Death Bringers I was constantly 100 Gold in MINUS even though I was founding, plundering and exploring stuff without end. In another game the same thing happened, even though I wasn’t even playing Necro. 🙂

    However: without the need to Ghoul stuff – as regular fighters – DBs are first and foremost slow on the AV map.

    So I think Summoning them would make them a unit, well, better suited for the needs of Necro. Reapers, then would take the place of DBs as the best PRODUCTION unit.
    Again: keep in mind that you GHOUL a lot of really good stuff. Manticore Riders from Dungeons are not that difficult, Warbreeds are neither, Black Angels, all sorts of interesting stuff.
    The Death Bringer, though, is really a formidable unit most of the time and worth producing (and the investment).

    #228257

    Ericridge
    Member

    Founding cities doesn’t mean you will have good income, you have to wait for them to grow first and only then you will have good income. Its all about can you endure the -100 gpt deficit until your cities grow in time and start making you a profit or suicide your excessively large ghoul army on new empire you just found.

    But that’s exactly it, battling against independents… deathbringers being a summon doesn’t matter but it will give necromancers big problems when battling against other empires or players.

    The less deathbringers there is the less likely you are able to ghoul the entire enemy army that you just defeated.

    Necromancer wants many deathbringers and few dread reapers not the reverse because it is more expensive for necromancer’s income that way. Necromancers is reliant on being able to have plenty of deathbringers when fighting stuff like manticore spam.

    I didn’t have problems fielding deathbringers, i don’t see why this will make the non-existent problem for me go away somehow. Focus growth on few cities to have them enable deathbringer production and then chill for abit and you’ll have 18+ in six turns easily.

    Meanwhile having 18+ Dread Reapers will just smash the fragile necromancer’s economy easily. While having glut of free mana floating around doing nothing because you can’t summon the deathbringers quick enough.

    Deathbringers is also a makeshift measure for necromancer to resort to in bringing juggernauts down for when you get caught in the area where there is no bone horrors. They hit hard enough to win against the AI. Meanwhile you’re completely boned if you have dread reaper in the area instead of death bringers.

    #228397

    Dagoth Ur
    Member

    I don’t agree with this suggestion. Why? I think Death Bringers are awesome units. They’re probably my favorite unit in the game, not only because of Ghoul Curse but also because of their battle prowess and because you can upgrade them with both Dungeons and Crystal Trees to make something more deadly.
    Moving them to summon and moving the Reaper to produced has two problems: you will get fewer Death Bringers, what if you loose some of them? And Reapers will be produced in Necromancer towns, which don’t have a lot of production unless you pick your race to compensate for this. Both of these things mean that it will become even more difficult for Necromancers to bounce back after a setback, especially if you loose your leader.
    You can’t just balance things around the assumption you’re always winning.

    However, I think it would make sense to move them to the T2 building instead. Which Class T3 gets produced in the T3 building? Even Shadow Stalkers are produced in the T2 building. Was this a balance thing?

    (Actually it would make sense to make the Shadow Stalker a summon seeing that all Elementals are summons, but that’s another discussion and would seriously damage Rogue play probably.)

    #228425

    Actually it would make sense to make the Shadow Stalker a summon seeing that all Elementals are summons, but that’s another discussion and would seriously damage Rogue play probably.)

    I wonder if it is possible to make it both summonable and produceable.

    #228465

    NINJEW
    Member

    well, the feathered serpent can both be produced from MCU and summoned from secret spell, so probably

    #228558

    Gloweye
    Member

    You could make it both…technically.

    I think this stuff is fine as is. Making it a summon will make it easier to rush, which means the ghoul apocalypse will begin sooner(since you won’t need infrastructure), but on the other hand it’s harder to really get it going.

    #228773

    Jolly Joker
    Member

    Gloweye, we are in game. I just got Centurion. Didn’t build even ONE death bringer (although I controlled 3).
    I mean, for fodder you have Cadavers which work nicely (and you can get a million in no time). But what counts ix UNIT EXPERIENCE, so your aim is to not lose any. If you Ghoul a unit you ghoul it including XP; if you lose it again, you lose XP. I think that a Champion 4 Dwarven Manticore Rider is worth more than a stack of Ghouled units, simply because the guy is so difficult to kill, especially if led by a good hero. You saw that. You need quality, because quality survives.

    #228818

    Ericridge
    Member

    Champion 4 Ghouled Manticore rider = 40 extra hp, extra vulnerable to spirit damage, and -1 defense. And then you toss a skin of oil upon that manticore rider.. Kaboom.

    Its tough but certainly not unkillable. I’ve brought plenty of them low with styile halberdiers by making good use of the skin of oil. And they have to watch out for elite human archers, they just love it when they get to shoot at a target covered in oil.

    I’ve used my elite human archers in taming the khan scenarios, quite a few manticores was defeated in this way.

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