Shadow Realm – Brainstorm

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Home Forums Modding and Map Making Shadow Realm – Brainstorm

This topic contains 1,098 replies, has 37 voices, and was last updated by  Refineus 2 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #238796

    Gloweye
    Member

    I would like to create this thread as a brainstorm thread to a possible fan-made DLC-sized package. Major feature would be the Shadow Realm including it’s own looks as created by Charlatan, and included in Decodence.

    However, that Shadow Realm still needs to be filled. So here is my thoughts on some of the factions which we lorewise know have a reason to be there. While of course gameplay is most important, I’d love to be able to put it all together as a logical continuation of lore from SM and the existing knowledge onwards. In lore references, I will be assuming you are familiar with it.

    Archons:

    Almost all Archons went through the Shadow Gates before they were closed by Merlin. They only left behind their dead, which rose as the Archon Revenants, possible fueled by Necromancy from an unknown faction that possibly originated from the Shadow World. However, in the Shadow Realm, there may yet be living Archons. Considering AoW’s grand theory of multiple planes of existence and the global presence of Archons among them, it’s even quite likely.

    Hence a possible suggestion for a Race that originates there. An ancient brainstorm from me and BBB resulted in something very close to the following:

    • Irregular: Novice (Spirit Blast)
    • Barracks
    • Infantry: Legionaire (Throw Spear)
    • Pikeman: Guardian (Morale Bonus standing Adjacent to friendly(archon?) supports/archers)
    • T2
    • Archer: Chariot Archer (fast, very weak to melee)
    • Cavalry: Valkyrie (Flying, but slightly weaker to compensate)
    • Support: Saint (Lesser Resurrect(equivalent to Undead Reanimate), Floating, Turn Undead, Break Control. very weak melee)
    • T3:
    • Avenger: Free movement, Higher damage Spirit Blast, Holy Champion.

    Of course, lineup is just these old ideas. Whoever would actually be making the race would of course have quite a larger say in the matter.

    Despite the fact that I like this line-up, I’m not really sure if they should be Shadow World native. If a race is not desired, a Dwelling could not considered. While I haven’t played it myself, Zaskow’s/Flenoom’s version of it looks good to me.

    My own line of thought here is inconclusive.

    Shadow Demons

    Shadow Demons are IMHO a must if we’re to recreate the Shadow Realm. However, they suffered a major defeat at the hands of Merlin and his allies at the end of the Shadow Magic campaign. After that, an enormous army went in to try and decimate them even more. While there’s signs that that army had quite some issues, it’s safe to say that their numbers are far less than what we’re used to from Shadow Magic.

    Therefore, my suggestion would be a Dwelling for the Shadow Demons. This would allow us to maintain their original identity unaffected by the race/class matrix we have now. My personal favorites I would like to return are Skimmer, Brain and Harvester. The last of those would imply the Larvae. Spawn and Bombard could return as the lower class filler units(and evolve from larvae, and maybe evolve themselves as well? Even if it’s just the boring Spawn…). I personally dislike the Lord, cause it was just a boring T4 melee guy. Feel free to disagree or suggest awesome alternatives though.

    Syrons

    Despite my lower liking for Syrons, I feel they should return. They also seem to fit the race/class matrix quite well compared to at least Shadow Demons, while lacking the distinctive feel that would prevent them from being every class. For example, I have less trouble imagining an [insert class here] Syron than a Dread Elf.

    Racial lineup could focus somewhat on Shock – only elves have a bit, and even them not that much. That leaves some room. Throw Lightning for the Catchers could return easily, possibly feeling much like the Flamer. Prospectors could be either Irregulars or Pikes. Shadow Runners could be demoted to Infantry, Spellbinders promoted to Supports. Personally have no affinity for their old Rider cavalry, but I suppose they’ll fill the job if no better alternative is found. T3 could be Shadow Runner(if not demoted to Infantry), Ancestral Sprie or Giant Warrior. Maybe Forceship would work to, if a suitable alternative to the Transport ability could be found.

    Despite my dislike for the race as a whole, I feel the Syrons could fill a race spot. Oh, and they’re lore-friendly there.

    Dark Elves:

    If I don’t start about them, no doubt poster #2 or #3 will. After all, many of them entered the Shadow Gate before it closed to help Meandor fight.

    However, I still have the feeling that they’ll fill better as a Dwelling. This will allow us to keep them unique, since in the racial matrix they’ll double High Elves for everything except Phase and Underground. Also, I don’t think the racial matrix could do their fun factor justice, which I still have the suspicion about that this is the true reason for the Mending – the Dev’s just didn’t believe they would make a fun, distinctive race in the matrix.

    As for what the dwelling should be, I have some pretty detailed Ideas. Though a bit outdated, most of them can be seen through the link in my signature. I have already build the mod almost entirely, and even if everyone disagrees if it’d be a good addition to a fan DLC, I’ll still finish and publish it.

    However, I do think that their Shadow Realm presence can not be ignored. Therefore, I present my most far-fetched plan to date:

    Shadow Elves

    Descendant from the Elves(light and dark) who followed Meandor, the Shadow Elves have a connection to nature like their High elf brethren. However, their Nature is that of the shadow world – twisted from the known nature of Athla. They would have Spirit and Shock damage to use(Seems to be the Shadowborn damage types, and it fits them), and be a full race. Their skin would generally be a pale, sickish white, much like that of the Syrons, and most unlike other elves. Despite that, their mostly dark elf ancestry would be prevalent, giving them dark hair.

    Final Thoughts

    That’s as far as I could imagine the shadow world being filled. I can’t really come up with a class that fits here – I suppose Shadow Demons could be a theme, summoning them, sacrificing your racial subjects, stuff like that. Warlock/Shadowmancer. Call it whatever. But it doesn’t feel like a full class to me.

    However, I’m not the guy going to build all this. What I’m looking for is to gather a collective of people so that we can do it together, everyone bringing their own talents to make the Shadow Realm a reality in RMG maps, as well as a rich well of resources for custom maps. So, who would like to help make this real? For now, I don’t think we’ll be needing to many skilled people. I for once have only limited knowledge – I can build races/classes in the rpk’s and implement it all in the RMG, but that’s about it. The bulk of the work is the creative assets – models, and things like that. Race/class outfits. Unit models, for all the race/class combinations as well as the racial units.

    Regarding license and credited work, I would propose every contributor to allow the group to use his assets for the intended purpose(Shadow Realm fan DLC) only. Every contributor would remain his own, and use of the assets for any other purpose would require the creator’s permission, and his alone.
    ————————————————————————————————————-
    Updated 30-12
    Currently, most community member participating in the discussion seem to agree that the first release should be rather small, featuring quite some structures, maybe some dwellings or perhaps a race. Feel free to join in though!
    ————————————————————————————————————–
    Some images of Shadow Realm specialized structures, by Charlatan:


    • This topic was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by  Gloweye.
    #238812

    Buczer
    Member

    I suggest complete thematic change to the Syrons. I dont think that asian (mostly japanese) theme is possible to introduce with current editor, but if so, IMO it will be less weird than of the former syrons. Syrons in SM looked like sado-masochistic StarWars aliens. If the old weirdo-type is less problematic for modding, leave it.
    Anyway my sugestions – leave syron armour fierie glowing (like that of fantasm warior f.e., but in darker colours).

    1. Unmodified Syrons wariant:

    t1 – prospector (pikeman), shadowrunner (inf.), lightning catcher (irregular), shadow archer (archer)
    t2 – spellbinder (support), rider (cav)
    t3 – giant warrior

    2. Moddified Syrons wariant

    t1. – monk (irregular), Shadowrunner (inf. – looking like samurai with katana), Ashigaru (pikeman with naginata), lightning archer (archer – modified for mixed shock/phisical)
    t2. – spellbinder (support), rider (with yari)
    t3. – giant warior (modified – samurai with tetsubo)

    basic resistance to lightning for racial bonus.

    #238813

    Buczer
    Member

    Also, Archon saint should be devout by default.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by  Buczer.
    #238819

    esvath
    Member

    I am very excited with the prospect of having Shadow Realm in the RMG, however I can not help in modding it because of lacking both ability and time to learn and o do modding.

    That being said, I have several ideas/suggestions that I would like to share, hoping that these can contribute to the fan mod, however small they might be.

    First, I think that there should be no full race as the native of Shadow Realm. Instead, there should be dwellings of Shadow Demons, (living) Archon, Shadow Elves and Syrion, as Gloweye has described above.
    Lore-wise, I think introducing some of these factions in race/class matrix will be awkward since as far as I understand, the race/class matrix was developed in Athla after the sealing of the gates.
    From the practical point of view, I think introducing a faction as a full race means double or triple work than introducing it as a dwelling. Thus, less race means lighter work for the modders.

    Second, I think Shadow Realm should provide a “dangerous untamed wild” atmosphere where magic and powers are abundant but no living races will be happy to enter and live there. This should be reflected in the layer as:
    – lots of hostile roaming monsters, both “wild” Shadow Demons or shadow animals/beasts.
    – lots of visiting sites, with high level/great strength guardian, great reward and great mystical upgrade.
    – each and every race’s cities should get happiness penalty, making it hard to build and maintain bigger cities, but because of the unique mystical upgrades, a city in Shadow Realm could produce more powerful units than city in Athla.

    #238820

    Charlatan
    Member

    I kind of agree to the little cat-person – two races and a class would be quite a high-end plan and it would make sense to consider at least making one of them another dwelling.

    #238821

    HousePet
    Member

    Heh, I was expecting this to happen shortly.
    I’m happy to help out with this. I’m a design and coding guy. Fairly useless at making assets unfortunately. 🙁

    As for races, I’m not sure about Archons being a full race. Unless they had some sort of mechanic for creating a ‘blessed domain’ I don’t think they could survive well in the shadow world. Alternatively, they could team up with the Syrons to form a dual race.

    For Dark Elves, I’d quite like to see them evolved into Shadow Elves. Elven ability to work with nature and lore text on the Shade in SM could fit nicely into this.

    Shadow Demons as a minor race makes sense to me. The defeat of the All Devourer, Meandor’s efforts to shatter the hive mind and the wholesale slaughter of them would have left them with no cohesive leadership structure. Just isolated colonies being run by a few Brain, with their only aim as survival would be all that is left.

    I don’t think a new class is warranted. A couple of new specialisations maybe. Something like a Shadow Dweller specialisation and a Spirit Element perhaps?

    #238822

    Charlatan
    Member

    What if the Hive Mind was a kind of martyr and destroying it turned the Shadow Demons into a completely uncontrolled rampaging force of destruction that even the syrons and archons cannot keep up with ?

    #238827

    Gloweye
    Member

    Second, I think Shadow Realm should provide a “dangerous untamed wild” atmosphere where magic and powers are abundant but no living races will be happy to enter and live there. This should be reflected in the layer as:
    – lots of hostile roaming monsters, both “wild” Shadow Demons or shadow animals/beasts.
    – lots of visiting sites, with high level/great strength guardian, great reward and great mystical upgrade.
    – each and every race’s cities should get happiness penalty, making it hard to build and maintain bigger cities, but because of the unique mystical upgrades, a city in Shadow Realm could produce more powerful units than city in Athla.

    I…really like this part.

    How about a Mystical City Upgrade allowing you to produce Elder Eldritch Horrors? Literally a piece of cake to implement, huge power advantage on the layer.

    Then again, have units that dangerous roaming wild.

    We’d need a couple of Shadow Realm specific treasure sites, and preferably around 3 types of spawners to keep things a bit varied.

    #238828

    A discussion about the shadow world that awakens me once again from my long slumber.

    But first things first.

    and even if everyone disagrees if it’d be a good addition to a fan DLC, I’ll still finish and publish it.

    That’s a good spirit Lord Gloweye, we both know that there are plenty of people who would be happy with your new Dark elf dwelling.

    What if the Hive Mind was a kind of martyr and destroying it turned the Shadow Demons into a completely uncontrolled rampaging force of destruction that even the syrons and archons cannot keep up with ?

    Less intelligence more destruction, that’s the way I like insectoid fake demons Strategos Charlatan.

    if I find some more time today I will give an detailed brainstorm of the magnificent Overlord Darkslash

    #238833

    Charlatan
    Member

    Now, since a large part (or all) of the artistic work will be left on my desk anyway, here’s my two cents on all the topics:

    New Races In General
    With the only exception of the Shadow Demons to a large degree, I am completely against siding any race to an alignment. A whole humanoid / sentient race being all-evil without exceptions is quite unlikely.

    For balance reasons, no Shadowrealm native race should really depend on it’s terrain to be happy.

    While it seems logical at first glance, I also think Shadowrealm preferences should not be tied to Blighted on Athla. The Shadowrealm never gave the impression of decay and death, but more mystical / astral with it’s glowy effects and black shiny rocks. In that regard, I would say Arctic is actually the closest similar by “feel” to the Shadowrealm, which probably isn’t all too hot temperatured either.

    Dark Elves / Shadow Elves
    Frankly, I think the difference there is small, at least given the style I applied to the WIP Dark Elf units – I moved away from the ghoulish greenish skin and undead look, instead going back to a more sinister natural one – blue/purple-ish skin, red eyes, dark hair, more lean than gaunt.

    Syrons
    I think I am not alone when I say, Syrons in AOW2 looked extremely freaking weird. But that’s pretty much no surprise at all give we are speaking of a mystical shadow dimension.

    However, I would still apply some design changes, because of a different reason: Somewhere between AOW1 and AOW2, Syrons changed from powerful spectral warriors to the white-skinned tall gaunt Shadowrealm natives.

    I’d retain the eerily gaunt/tall appearance, but merge it with a semi spectral touch (intensely glowing eyes, shining marks on the skin). Also, I’m still thinking of some unusual anatomic oddities that could be added ontop.

    if I find some more time today I will give an detailed brainstorm of the magnificent Overlord Darkslash

    Looking forward :>

    #238834

    Gloweye
    Member

    With the only exception of the Shadow Demons to a large degree, I am completely against siding any race to an alignment. A whole humanoid / sentient race being all-evil without exceptions is quite unlikely.

    Agreed – also one more reason why Shadow Demons should be a Dwelling.

    And TBH, with their history of devouring/using/manipulating souls, they’d be a much better place for the Incarnate than Dark Elves ever were….I’ve spend some thought on the subject of the unit, and if we don’t mind Incarnates losing their medals upon extraction/possession, I think we can make the unit.

    #238835

    Dr_K
    Member

    I do think that the Shadow Demons could work well as both a class and dwelling, with mechanics similar to the Necormancer’s undead cities, instead of a race. Essentially give the class a ‘Migrate to Shadow Demons’ option when conquering, and all other classes a necessary ‘Purge’ (or other destruction) option. This way, you could sort of have a Shadow Demons “race” without all of the necessary class variants & artistic assets. Plus the ability to deviate from the standard race matrix. Alternatively, you could add a Ghoul-like modifier and have Shadow <insert race> units like the Necromancer has.

    I haven’t played with the city mechanics too much, so I do not know how much of the undead city mechanics and migration mechanics are moddable. Thus, this might not actually be feasible in its entirety.

    I’d gladly help with technical sides of the mods for a project like this.

    I’ve spend some thought on the subject of the unit, and if we don’t mind Incarnates losing their medals upon extraction/possession, I think we can make the unit.

    I’m actually very curious as to how this would work. I tried making something like it a while ago and all the combinations that I came up with ended up crashing the game or throwing errors, so I moved onto other things.

    #238836

    esvath
    Member

    Here is my thought on spawning points and treasure sites. Please note that these were not written with balance and lore in mind 🙂

    Dwelling:
    1) (living) Archon Bastion
    2) Syrion Fortress
    3) Shadow Elves City
    4) Shadow Demons Hive

    Spawn Points:
    1) Dark Gate: spawn Succubi and Lesser Shadow Stalkers
    2) Unstable Rift: spawn elementals
    3) Larva Pool: spawn Shadow Demons
    4) Warband Campfire: spawn Shadow Elves

    Treasure Sites:
    1) Shadow Temple (Mythical)
    “A place where a sect of Shadow Elves turned to worshipping Shadow Demon Hive Mind. Nobody knows what their agenda is, but for sure, they have lots of secrets, and richness to plunder!”
    Defenders: mixture of Shadow Elves and Shadow Demons, or even unique Shadow Elves units.
    Reward: artifacts, gold, mana
    Unlocks: Enchanted Hall (units in city domain are immune to Shadow sickness and ignore Shadow terrain’s happiness penalty).

    2) Forgotten Throne (Mythical)
    “Once, a Wizard King reigned here. Now, only Shadow Demons lurk in the ruins left.”
    Defenders: Shadow Demons
    Reward: secret spells, artifacts
    Unlocks: Altar of Elder Eldritch (city can produce Elder Eldritch Horror).

    3) Tomb of Hive Queen (Legendary)
    “A Shadow Demon Hive Queen was buried here, guarded by Syrion warriors. There is nothing valuable here, only the carcass of a fallen Hive Queen.”
    Defenders: Syrion units
    Reward: high tier Shadow Demon unit(s)
    Unlocks: Blood of the Queen (monster units produced/summoned in city gain immunity to Shadow sickness and Blood Thirsty).

    4) Derelict Shrine (Legendary)
    “Only the Archon knows why this shrine was built and why it was abandoned. However, they don’t share secrets to anyone.”
    Units: (living) Archon
    Reward: artifacts
    Unlock: Chapel of Good Hope (produced units get +2 spirit strength)

    5) Last Hold Sanctuary (Epic)
    “Remnants of fallen armies have gathered here, just to survive in the middle of this blasted realm. They are not interested in your offer of alliance, however you can try to subjugate them and take whatever resources they have.”
    Defenders: mixture of racial units (to represent remnant of Athlan army; maybe Humans, Dwarves, Elves…?)
    Reward: gold, units
    Unlocks: Armory of Old (armored units produced in city gets +2 DEF/+2 RES)

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by  esvath.
    • This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by  esvath.
    #238840

    Eomolch
    Member

    I’ve spend some thought on the subject of the unit, and if we don’t mind Incarnates losing their medals upon extraction/possession, I think we can make the unit.

    I’m actually very curious as to how this would work. I tried making something like it a while ago and all the combinations that I came up with ended up crashing the game or throwing errors, so I moved onto other things.

    My guess (since he mentions the loss of XP) is that he wants to do it like this: Have possess give the possessed unit a unit porperty group which gives the unit the ‘possess ability’ and also an on unit death ability that will immediately resurrect and transform the unit into an incarnate. This also means the possess ability has to kill (and disintegrate) the unit using it, hence the loss of XP.

    Funny enough this is basically what I am trying to do myself at the moment. However there is still one big problem I couldn’t resolve yet: If the possessed unit dies during the battle it became possessed in, the resurrected and transformed incarnate will belong to the player the possessed unit originally belonged to. This must be because when the unit dies it looses the mind controlled property, so the corpse’s owner is the original owner of the unit. I had hoped the option to convert resurrect (like for true resurrect) could fix this but it doesn’t seem that way :/

    #238841

    Charlatan
    Member

    (snip)

    Thematically I really like all those Spawn Points and Treasure Sites. 😮

    Dwellings, well depends which races are dwelling and which a full fledged race.

    #238842

    HousePet
    Member

    Not really wanting to put more work onto those who can create the pretty graphical assets, but could there be more than one shadow realm theme? Or is there an issue with layer generation that blocks that.

    I’m just thinking of a natural shadow realm terrain and a consumed/blighted version. Perhaps normal shadow terrain is associated with ordered magic and the corrupted version with chaotic magic? Hrm, can we do antimagic tiles somehow?

    Overall, I like the idea of the shadow realm being rich in magical things and containing many dangerous enemies.

    Shadow Demons as an uncontrolled rampaging force wouldn’t be overly scary. Without an overmind to direct and manage them, they would just end up destroying themselves.

    #238843

    Charlatan
    Member

    Not really wanting to put more work onto those who can create the pretty graphical assets, but could there be more than one shadow realm theme? Or is there an issue with layer generation that blocks that.

    I’m just thinking of a natural shadow realm terrain and a consumed/blighted version. Perhaps normal shadow terrain is associated with ordered magic and the corrupted version with chaotic magic? Hrm, can we do antimagic tiles somehow?

    It should be entirely possible to have two themes.

    If an enticing, natural shadowrealm without the shadowdemon corruption, clad in gentle darkness and lush, mystical plants, is what you want, then I will definitely go through the work of making yet another terrain theme.

    😛

    #238848

    esvath
    Member

    It should be entirely possible to have two themes.

    Sooo… It is possible then to cleanse the Shadow Realm? :O

    If an enticing, natural shadowrealm without the shadowdemon corruption, clad in gentle darkness and lush, mystical plants, is what you want, then I will definitely go through the work of making yet another terrain theme.

    😛

    Yes, yes, yes!!! You, Sir, is a generous man indeed!

    #238849

    HousePet
    Member

    Am thinking that non shadow native races should have a 50% growth penalty in the shadow realm (assuming its doable). Penalty can be negated by building a special building, which is unlocked by having nearby Shadow Weed?

    Not sure if someone is being sarcastic about making yet another terrain theme. In case they are being serious, I suggest that the existing terrain looks pretty good already. Just making the pure shadow terrain slightly more lush and a few shiny crystal would be all it needed. Then for the devoured shadow terrain, make the dirt and rock more of a dark grey colour and wither the vegetation a bit.

    But really I have no idea how much work it is to do this. 😛

    #238850

    Gloweye
    Member

    Some shiny crystals as random props could be a good thing. As is Shadow Weed, but with the current absence of Shadow Sickness (and, TBH, lack of a good way to implement it aside from Hated Terrain), I’m kind of unsure what Shadow Weed should actually do.

    As for the growth penalty, I’m not entirely sure about how we could code that. But full Hated Terrain should be enough disadvantage maybe?

    And then negating that with Shadow Weed as secondary function of the “structure” sounds like a good plan.

    #238851

    Thariorn
    Member

    1) Shadow Temple (Mythical)
    “A place where a sect of Shadow Elves turned to worshipping Shadow Demon Hive Mind. Nobody knows what their agenda is, but for sure, they have lots of secrets, and richness to plunder!”
    Defenders: mixture of Shadow Elves and Shadow Demons, or even unique Shadow Elves units.
    Reward: artifacts, gold, mana
    Unlocks: Altar of Elder Eldritch (city can produce Elder Eldritch Horror).

    2) Forgotten Throne (Mythical)
    “Once, a Wizard King reigned here. Now, only Shadow Demons lurk in the ruins left.”
    Defenders: Shadow Demons
    Reward: secret spells, artifacts
    Unlocks: Enchanted Hall (units in city domain are immune to Shadow sickness and ignore Shadow terrain’s happiness penalty)

    Shouldn’t those two unlocks be swapped?
    To me it seems reasonable that the old Wizard Kings were able to conjure magical beasts akin to an Elder Eldritch, but not so much the negation of the Shadow Realm’s dimensional properties.
    A temple which worships (and houses) seemingly native inhabitants of the Shadow Realm seems to be the more “logical” place to find protection/negation of the Shadow Sickness imo

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by  Thariorn.
    #238853

    HousePet
    Member

    If there isn’t a sensible way of implementing shadow sickness, making it a hated terrain seems like a good option. Shadow Weed could then give a temporary liking to shadow terrain.

    #238854

    Gloweye
    Member

    I do think that the Shadow Demons could work well as both a class and dwelling, with mechanics similar to the Necormancer’s undead cities, instead of a race. Essentially give the class a ‘Migrate to Shadow Demons’ option when conquering, and all other classes a necessary ‘Purge’ (or other destruction) option. This way, you could sort of have a Shadow Demons “race” without all of the necessary class variants & artistic assets. Plus the ability to deviate from the standard race matrix. Alternatively, you could add a Ghoul-like modifier and have Shadow <insert race> units like the Necromancer has.

    I haven’t played with the city mechanics too much, so I do not know how much of the undead city mechanics and migration mechanics are moddable. Thus, this might not actually be feasible in its entirety.

    There’s a couple of hardcoded elements to Undead cities. Not really something we can mod in, sadly.

    My guess (since he mentions the loss of XP) is that he wants to do it like this: Have possess give the possessed unit a unit porperty group which gives the unit the ‘possess ability’ and also an on unit death ability that will immediately resurrect and transform the unit into an incarnate. This also means the possess ability has to kill (and disintegrate) the unit using it, hence the loss of XP.

    That was the plan. And I wasn’t planning on making the Possessed property being removable.

    I still have to work out details like the when a unit dies in the same battle, but I’m pretty confident I can do that.

    #238855

    Dr_K
    Member

    There’s a couple of hardcoded elements to Undead cities. Not really something we can mod in, sadly.

    I was afraid of that. Still might work even without all of the bells and whistles of different city types.

    I still have to work out details like the when a unit dies in the same battle, but I’m pretty confident I can do that.

    Good luck. That’s the main problem I’ve been looking for a solution to.

    #238856

    esvath
    Member

    Shouldn’t those two unlocks be swapped?
    To me it seems reasonable that the old Wizard Kings were able to conjure magical beasts akin to an Elder Eldritch, but not so much the negation of the Shadow Realm’s dimensional properties.
    A temple which worships (and houses) seemingly native inhabitants of the Shadow Realm seems to be the more “logical” place to find protection/negation of the Shadow Sickness imo

    Good point! I have updated the original post.

    Here are ideas for new treasure sites:

    6) Hollow Grove (Legendary)
    “There are traces of nature magics which formed this grove and moulded it in a likeness of Athlan groves. The twisted powers of this realm subtly twisted and corrupted the enchantment, however, leaving the grove as dark mirror of Athla.”
    Defender: corrupted Horned God, Nightshades fairy, tier 3 monsters/animals.
    Reward: Nightshade Fairy and random monsters/animals
    Unlocks: Pool of Shadows (support units produced in city gain Shadow Step and Entangling Strike)

    7) Assassin Guild (Epic)
    “Disillusioned with the constant wars, these Shadow Elves left their cities and formed a robber band. They prey on the weak and cause constant trouble to neighbouring settlements.”
    Defender: Shadow Elves
    Reward: gold, Shadow Elves/Syrion unit
    Unlocks: Recruiting Office (city can recruit Shadow Elves Bard and Assassin)
    — Shadow Elves Bard has aura which gives nearby enemy -1 ATT/-1 RES
    — Shadow Elves Assassin has Shadow Realm concealment and Shadow Step

    8) Archon Fort (Epic)
    “A group of Archon fighters have chosen this place as base. You are sure that there are a lot of supplies needed by your army. The question is how you can convince them in sharing the valuable goods with you.”
    Defender: (living) Archon
    Reward: gold, mana, artifacts
    Unlocks: Celestial Tower (+1 city radius, city gets extra Spirit Blast attack during siege)

    #238858

    Eomolch
    Member

    That was the plan. And I wasn’t planning on making the Possessed property being removable.

    I still have to work out details like the when a unit dies in the same battle, but I’m pretty confident I can do that.

    Yes, possessed shouldn’t be removable.

    Also, if you find a solution to the mentioned problem I would be very interested to hear it. (And if I find one I’ll also let you know.)

    —————————–
    As for the topic itself, first of all, I love the prospect of introducing a fully fleshed-out shadow realm to the game =)

    Now when it comes to possible races or dwellings, as much as I loved the old archons and dark elves, I think their possible new unit line-ups should corespond to the fact that they have been living in the shadow realm for hundreds of years by now (and I don’t just say this to make the dark elf stuff from my racial heritage mod fit in with this project :P) . Actually I could imagine even more drastic changes, like a race/dwelling consisting of the descendents of a mixed race of archons and syrons or dark elves actually allying with (or even controlling) the shadow demons. After all there is no way to know they would stay loyal to Meandor over hundreds of years, especially since it was his “fault” that they are stuck in the shadow realm.

    So e.g. there could the two factions: Archons+Syrons (or rather their descendants) vs. Shadow Demons+Dark Elves. And when it comes to implementing them I would actually like them to be races with a fixed (unique) class. So they would have cities with normal racial unit and building line-ups but when you choose to play them you can only select “their” class (and vice versa no other race can choose those classes to play). This would make sense lore-wise since classes are something for “ordinary” races on athla and it would also make sense content-wise since it would keep the neccessary amount of work at an acceptable level (only racial units and 3-4 “class” units per faction). However I’m not sure if it is actually possible to forbid the classes for the normal races (and normal classes for those shadow realm races) but even if it can’t be “hardcoded” through modding tools one could make the implicit assumption that people aren’t allowed to choose those combinations. In other words, ppl using the mod would have to know that if they select them their game will crash/not work properly.

    Maybe I should give some more justification for that idea. That the new races/factions shouldn’t be implemented like the 9 existing ones is something probably no one would argue with since the effort needed to do this would be insane. The reason why I am against dwellings as well however (though naturally there could be some other creative dwellings in the shadow realm) is that when you think of the shadow realm and opening the shadow gates again you wan’t to see a lurking threat waiting to destroy athla, an epic battle between good and evil and dwellings can’t provide such sense of danger or superior forces ready to invade (or protect) this world. Maybe in a heavily-scripted campaign but certainly not in the RMG. There it can only work with actual players (human or AI) controlling an empire with cities populated by the population of the shadow realm races. (And the ability to migrate other cities to their race!)

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by  Eomolch.
    #238860

    What’s happening here is really beautiful. I can’t help on the modding side, as I lack the skills and the OS (linux user, I’d go mad coming back to windows) but I’ll try to help with ideas. Fully fleshed races with special classes are really a good idea, making sense lorewise.

    The thing I’m worring about is battlefields. As far as I know there is no official way to edit battlefields. How are you going to cope with that?

    OT: about Gloweye’s Incarnate, if the incarnate switches sides when the possessed unit dies in the same battle where it’s possessed, could you not make a debuff that comes with the “Possess” skill that spawns an Incarnate that immediately switches side upon death, instead of spawning an Incarnate under the control of the original possessor (and, naturally, that debuff would forbid the normal spawning of the Incarnate happening)? That debuff would end with the battle, and then the normal Incarnate spawning could happen without problems.

    #238862

    Gloweye
    Member

    Maybe I should give some more justification for that idea. That the new races/factions shouldn’t be implemented like the 9 existing ones is something probably no one would argue with since the effort needed to do this would be insane. The reason why I am against dwellings as well however (though naturally there could be some other creative dwellings in the shadow realm) is that when you think of the shadow realm and opening the shadow gates again you wan’t to see a lurking threat waiting to destroy athla, an epic battle between good and evil and dwellings can’t provide such sense of danger or superior forces ready to invade (or protect) this world. Maybe in a heavily-scripted campaign but certainly not in the RMG. There it can only work with actual players (human or AI) controlling an empire with cities populated by the population of the shadow realm races. (And the ability to migrate other cities to their race!)

    I kind of disagree here – first of all, no race should be inherently good or evil. These races as you describe them all sound very much like dwellings with a migrate option.

    Secondly, when the shadowworld closed, it was not really ruled by a single faction like the first time it opened up. There was quite a lot of war between what we could call the Athla Alliance and the Shadow Demons.

    As for the threat that you describe, it could easily be achieved with some dwellings and spawners that have the same units – where the dwellings could represent those parts of a faction that actually can be pursuaded to work for you, and the spawners as the globally hostile factions.

    And when it comes to implementing them I would actually like them to be races with a fixed (unique) class. So they would have cities with normal racial unit and building line-ups but when you choose to play them you can only select “their” class (and vice versa no other race can choose those classes to play). This would make sense lore-wise since classes are something for “ordinary” races on athla and it would also make sense content-wise since it would keep the neccessary amount of work at an acceptable level (only racial units and 3-4 “class” units per faction). However I’m not sure if it is actually possible to forbid the classes for the normal races (and normal classes for those shadow realm races) but even if it can’t be “hardcoded” through modding tools one could make the implicit assumption that people aren’t allowed to choose those combinations. In other words, ppl using the mod would have to know that if they select them their game will crash/not work properly.

    I believe it’s possible to exclude combinations. However, I don’t really want to. Knowledge will leak across soon enough. Also, if a Athlan Dreadnought has a Shadow Elf city, how hard can it be to put muskets in their hands?

    What’s happening here is really beautiful. I can’t help on the modding side, as I lack the skills and the OS (linux user, I’d go mad coming back to windows) but I’ll try to help with ideas. Fully fleshed races with special classes are really a good idea, making sense lorewise.

    It’s not just mod tools skills – actually, I’d argue that those aren’t the bottleneck here. Modelling skills would be far more valuable IMO. Especially for the new race models. Strategic map structures are a lot more easy.

    However, even Icon creation would have a place, if that’s something you can do. All that it really requires is some experience with advanced image editing software(which I don’t even have…)

    The thing I’m worring about is battlefields. As far as I know there is no official way to edit battlefields. How are you going to cope with that?

    We are able to set the Theme used by the battlefields – Charlatan has been able to do this for his custom Theme’s. As for the independent sites, currently the idea is to just not look to closely. Me and Charlatan are tho only ones who’ve taken a look at it as far as I know, and the amount of error’s I’ve seen are -not- fun. Basically, if it’s just replacing a structure, no problem – we can duplicate a rpk definition of a model and link it to an Overlay – like Fertile Plains, Barrens, etc. So enforcing Barrens under one model and Fertile Plain under the other would allow you to select the correct objects. However, that’s just about all we can do aside from the underlying theme’s.

    #238863

    I have no graphical skills either, lol. But I could learn. I’m on a limited time since I’m working on my master thesis, but I could use some of the time that I use playing learning some graphical skills, and trying to do something. Results will be awful, you’ve been warned!

    #238864

    Charlatan
    Member

    Not sure if someone is being sarcastic about making yet another terrain theme.

    Seemingly it is a rare case, but not sarcastic this time :p

    I have no graphical skills either, lol. But I could learn. I’m on a limited time since I’m working on my master thesis, but I could use some of the time that I use playing learning some graphical skills, and trying to do something. Results will be awful, you’ve been warned!

    I’m not sure steam broadcast can handle the 3d modelling tools, but anyone interested in seeing how this works can just request to watch while I model.

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